How AWFUL IS PCI?
Boom
Posts: 10,165 ✭
Recently there has been much discussion,both pro and con, concerning PCI and other 3rd Party Grading Services. Since I do not want to do anything I'm not supposed to by using this forum incorrectly, I ask that you all go to Coins BS&T Forum and click on the link I have provided for my Sunday Night offerings on ebay...the thread is entitled Boom's stuff starting Sunday night on ebay ...click on the link and see how I set an opening bid of $1400 on an item and got it with roughly 5 hours left to go! We can come back here to "chat"! Thank you! Contrary to whatever certain people think of themselves...THEY DO NOT know everything! There are Gems to be found in the trash!
Do not misunderstand me....I think the world of PCGS and their abilities! My point IS...if you know how to grade and know what to look for (Cherrypick),there is money to be made and once again, I will prove my argument!
Do not misunderstand me....I think the world of PCGS and their abilities! My point IS...if you know how to grade and know what to look for (Cherrypick),there is money to be made and once again, I will prove my argument! 
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Comments
Please. Stop it!
Asking some Collectors to essentially think for themselves will not win you influence and friendship here.
peacockcoins
"Exactly."
Sorry about that. I thought I would make it easier for others to see your auction and engage in the debate. I figured you didn't want to be taken to task for posting the link but my doing so wouldn't be considered spamming. I'll be happy to edit the link back out if you'd prefer.
Anyway, I can't tell much about your coin from the auction image. However, I have been disappointed with most of the PCI coins I've had.
WH
<< <i>This also covers supplies ...you know the stuff you ship it in, and the price of trips to the Post Office/wear and tear on my classic 1972 Impala Custom Coupe and the person's wages I have hired to handle this! Next question!! >>
Oh Boy...here we go again with the wear and tear on the tires.
Simply stay home and wait for us to knock on your door to buy, or for your phone to ring. Ring Ring!!!! I think I hear it
Boom, my hat is off to you. I attempted the same kind of defense of 2nd tier services' coins. I love looking through the coins in holders other than the Top 2. I really enjoy looking for the "diamonds in the rough"!! You are not in lock-step agreement with certain Members, and will be criticized, harshly, for such a stance. Good luck!
all you've done is shown that there is one person in the world who trusts your refund/guaranty.
do you not believe that if you crossed the coin to pcgs/ngc that you could make considerably more money with a far less probability of having the coin returned?
since you are the one making the claim, would you mind telling us just how much of a "handsome profit" you are making on the sale of this gem? (assuming, of course, that the return privilege is not exercised.)
z
oh yeah, thanks Wayne.
ps. edited to add: this will prove much more interesting if the eventual purchaser actually keeps the coin, posts here that he believes the coin is properly graded, and perhaps even provides decent photos from which the coins surface qualities could be observed.
also edited to add: how awful is pci - quite awful, especially gold label.
Edited to Add: Okay, I might not even put ICG in the "second tier", so please don't flame me on this!
Edited to Add: One way I can tell which grading companies are the most accurate is VERY simple. I just look at the ACTUAL auction prices that have been realized on slabbed coins. If you look at several, you can get an idea which ones sell the most, and which ones sell for the biggest premiums. It's the golden rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules".
Check out a Vanguard Roth IRA.
If it's 1st class service, a 6x9" envelope, and a corregated Safe-T-Mailer, postage will be 83¢.
If it's a small Priority box or envelope, postage will be $3.85.
Either way, a $20 charge for shipping is overkill.
The marketplace pricing of PCI coins is the best proof of what the companies consistency in grading is.
Tyler
<< <i>All the whiners regarding shipping expenses will now come out of the woodwork. Get over it! StMan, I have ALWAYS appreciated your contributions and don't mean for you to take offense. Yet, it is just TOO simple to factor the S&H into the total purchase price. Especially when considering the final value of that coin! >>
DCAM.... no offense taken at all. Just as you may get tired of the whiners on shipping and such.... I get tired of the sellers whining about all the expenses. Detailing every minute little thing. Why bother I say. Charge what you will and if somebody doesn't like it so be it.
I actually get a kick out of it and that's why I say if it's too much trouble wait for someone to knock at your door. Fair enough?
Just curious! 1400.00 is a steal for a decent correctly graded 32-d washington in 63, unless it is down right ugly!
I wouldnt have a problem with the postal charge of 20.00 on a 1400.00 coin I wanted. Its a higher than I charge, but more in line of what it probably should be sending Registered mail, the packaging and time to the PO.
I was not trying to be condescending or negative at all -- just trying to answer your question in a previous post as to the cost of insurance for an item that might vary in value from $1,400 to $1,750.
Sorry if I misunderstood.
I also apologize for my unsolicited comment about the appropriateness of the postage charge. That was not what the thread was about, so it was out of line.
<< <i>I am assuming you all are talkin about the 32-d .25 PCI-63. (start at 1400) I am curious to know, if you felt is was a solid 63 graded by PCI, then what made you purchase a PCGS 63 for your collection. Is it becuase you liked the new PCGS-63 better than the other coin you had, registry set entry, or becuase you honestly felt that the PCI coin was not original or 63 in quality?
Just curious! 1400.00 is a steal for a decent correctly graded 32-d washington in 63, unless it is down right ugly!
>>
My thoughts exactly...
THIS AWFUL......a first rate JOKE some might say
But like they say...even a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while. The OLD PCI wasn't bad at all but I wouldn't touch anything of much value in any of their newer green or gold holders unless it was at quite a discount PERIOD
<< <i>JUST A FEW SHORT YEARS AGO PCI WAS A RELATIVELY NEW SERVICE UNKNOWN TO MANY. I HAVE PERSONALLY WATCHED THIS COMPANY'S STANDARDS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS! >>
You lost me on that statement. They've been around quite a while but it was only in the past few years that they really lost credibility/marketability.
<< <i>THERE IS NO MORE GRADING OF PROBLEM OR CLEANED COINS AT PCI UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED ON THE HOLDER >>
Just counterfeits.
<< <i> IF ANYTHING THIS COIN IS UNDER-GRADED. >>
Then why on earth if it is such a Spectacular 63+++++++ would you buy a PCGS63 and sell this one?
<< <i>I've lived for this moment for a long time.It's every Washington Quarter collector's dream-to have that Baby in at least this grade. Boy oh boy-Christmas has come early for Boom! When you now view the set in a few days, oh how much better that number PCGS 63 sitting right there in the #2 coin slot-followed by the 32-S in 64 .WOW...somebody pinch me...I really did it! >>
These were your comments upon purchasing a PCGS63.
I guess I am confused because you claim the PCI coin to be undergraded and are selling it. You purchased a PCGS coin in the same grade.
<< <i> I have already told you what I think of you. I'm sure you are a good kid but you have this propensity to want to chime in on things you really know little about. Slowly but surely this good-hearted young man is turning into a follower to seek approval! >>
Jeremy has the knowledge and experience already to have good input here on the forums. He knows more than many of the collectors already and they will admit it.
<< <i> told you once before that I had been seriously collecting coins long before you were even a thought >>
Age or years of collecting mean nothing. There are many YN's that cherrypick the main dealers and get jobs before they turn 18 at the same places they have cherrypicked. Ebay feedback is a good indication, but powerseller status means nothing. All it means is you can sell $1,000 a month (1 coin even). I have the same status on ebay and it means nothing to even me.
Camneron Kiefer
I think it's pretty much a given that in Washington quarter market, PCGS coins fetch the most money vs. other holders provided the holder grade is the same. One of the things I've come to believe is that any seller that knows what they're doing wants to maximize the yield when they sell. If the seller knows what they're doing, the coin is sold in the holder that'll fetch the most money. I haven't seen your coin, and wouldn't pretend to know how it grades, but if you know what it grades, I'd imagine you have it in a PCI holder for a reason. I doesn't cost much to try to cross it. Maybe you're Don Quixote single-handedly building a customer base for PCI using your own profits, or maybe you're smart enough to know a PCI MS63 is worth more to someone hoping to cross it to PCGS than a PCGS MS62 is. Either way, this is fun conversation, but it has little to do with business. Most of us buy lots of coins. I always love a new wrinkle, and I'm hoping you can teach me one. How do you make a PCI Washington worth more than a PCGS Washington on Ebay? I love cherrypicking stuff from cheaper holders. I'm just wondering how you sell the cheaper holders for more money than the most popular ones.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Like any second tier service, many properly graded coins can be had as well as many overgraded and problematic coins. I have seen problem coins in every grading service holder, but it boils down to consistency VS the number of submissions that determine market acceptance.
The marketplace pricing of PCI coins is the best proof of what the companies consistency in grading is.
Tyler >>
Here's my take on PCI market acceptance. Until their change of ownership a couple of years ago, PCI was a respectable second tier grading service. Their old photoslabls and slabs with a green border and 9 or 10-digit serial numbers were graded conservatively by Skip Fazzari. Furthermore, they offered red-bordered slabs for problem coins, with the problem mentioned on the insert, which is a reason why many submit to ANACS now, instead of receiving a bodybag from a tier 1 service.
I have heard that when PCI changed ownership, their green-label slabs had 14 digits and the font on the insert changed. Soon after that, all slabs were gold-bordered, and grading standards became much more liberal. Many eBay PowerSellers who had profited by selling Accugrade slabs to newbies switched to PCI graded coins about a year ago, when Accugrade started receiving so much bad press (and newbies began discovering how they had been taken).
I haven't seen a red-label PCI slab or mention of a problem on a gold-label PCI slab insert, although I have seen examples of many cleaned, damaged, and even counterfeit coins in a gold-label PCI slab with no mention of a problem. I have seen a couple of trustworthy dealers actually state in public that they will not accept PCI (along with ACG, NTC, or TruGrade) graded coins in on trade or on consignment.
My confidence in recently graded coins from PCI falls each time I see Chattanooga Coin or another dealer near them pay for full page ads offering high grade PCI slabs in quantity at well below market value for the same had they received these grades from a tier 1 service.
At the last large show I attended, a dealer I trust had no AU $5 Liberty coins on my first visit to his table. I had requested a raw one for an album. Two hours later he had purchased about a dozen in PCI gold label slabs. He offered the MS-60 and 61s at CDN bid for AU and said, "although these are slabbed, no condition is permanent."
Yes, PCI enjoys a less than stellar reputation, as evidenced by the Graysheet's "Certified Coin Market Indicator", where presumably a PCGS or NGC coin trades sight unseen for abound 82% of CDN bid, but where a PCI coin sight unseen averages only 58%.
However, most collectors and many dealers lump the new gold-label PCI slabs together with the old green-label slabs. Their ignorance gives those of us who can spot a nice coin in an old PCI slab a potential bargain, since so many buyers have a bad taste in their mouth for PCI in general and without a knowledge of how their grading changed for the worse recently.
I have heard from a couple inveterate sellers of NTC ("New Mistrust") coins that that services poor reputation early on has led to a recent tightening of grading standards. Perhaps the reputation of PCI gold label slabs may have already convinced the new ownership to become more consistent lest they inherit Accugrade's reputation along with Accugrade's dealer network.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>
<< <i>Like any second tier service, many properly graded coins can be had as well as many overgraded and problematic coins. I have seen problem coins in every grading service holder, but it boils down to consistency VS the number of submissions that determine market acceptance.
The marketplace pricing of PCI coins is the best proof of what the companies consistency in grading is.
Tyler >>
Here's my take on PCI market acceptance. Until their change of ownership a couple of years ago, PCI was a respectable second tier grading service. Their old photoslabls and slabs with a green border and 9 or 10-digit serial numbers were graded conservatively by Skip Fazzari. Furthermore, they offered red-bordered slabs for problem coins, with the problem mentioned on the insert, which is a reason why many submit to ANACS now, instead of receiving a bodybag from a tier 1 service.
I have heard that when PCI changed ownership, their green-label slabs had 14 digits and the font on the insert changed. Soon after that, all slabs were gold-bordered, and grading standards became much more liberal. Many eBay PowerSellers who had profited by selling Accugrade slabs to newbies switched to PCI graded coins about a year ago, when Accugrade started receiving so much bad press (and newbies began discovering how they had been taken).
I haven't seen a red-label PCI slab or mention of a problem on a gold-label PCI slab insert, although I have seen examples of many cleaned, damaged, and even counterfeit coins in a gold-label PCI slab with no mention of a problem. I have seen a couple of trustworthy dealers actually state in public that they will not accept PCI (along with ACG, NTC, or TruGrade) graded coins in on trade or on consignment.
My confidence in recently graded coins from PCI falls each time I see Chattanooga Coin or another dealer near them pay for full page ads offering high grade PCI slabs in quantity at well below market value for the same had they received these grades from a tier 1 service.
At the last large show I attended, a dealer I trust had no AU $5 Liberty coins on my first visit to his table. I had requested a raw one for an album. Two hours later he had purchased about a dozen in PCI gold label slabs. He offered the MS-60 and 61s at CDN bid for AU and said, "although these are slabbed, no condition is permanent."
Yes, PCI enjoys a less than stellar reputation, as evidenced by the Graysheet's "Certified Coin Market Indicator", where presumably a PCGS or NGC coin trades sight unseen for abound 82% of CDN bid, but where a PCI coin sight unseen averages only 58%.
However, most collectors and many dealers lump the new gold-label PCI slabs together with the old green-label slabs. Their ignorance gives those of us who can spot a nice coin in an old PCI slab a potential bargain, since so many buyers have a bad taste in their mouth for PCI in general and without a knowledge of how their grading changed for the worse recently.
I have heard from a couple inveterate sellers of NTC ("New Mistrust") coins that that services poor reputation early on has led to a recent tightening of grading standards. Perhaps the reputation of PCI gold label slabs may have already convinced the new ownership to become more consistent lest they inherit Accugrade's reputation along with Accugrade's dealer network. >>
Very well stated!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
I don't have a bag of popcorn so I borrowed yours!
<< <i>I'm happy to share, Puff. >>
Thanks claw...... You think we're gonna get a azz chewin for gettin OT!
Well, for circulated coins, they are so-so. For uncirculated washington quarters less than so-so. I have purchased three PCI slabbed washington quarters in the last 6 years and have had to return all three. At shows, I study hundreds and hundreds of PCI slabbed washington quarters and find that even ACG comes quite close in quality to PCI. Now if you are talking about the Hallmark or very early PCI slabbed quarters that is another story alltogether.
Now, I wonder if the PCI MS-63 quarter looks better than the PCGS MS-61 quarter you had? Pictures of both side by side would help us to make more pertinent observations.
I also have a 1932-D PCGS MS-63 quarter in the old green insert. Many here observed that it was extremely high end for the grade and though it would upgrade to 64. I don't think so but indeed it is a fabulous 63. I am sure your new PCGS 63 quarter must be the same.
I have long maintained that a quality coin in the assigned grade is the best bargain of all. A crippled coin in the assigned grade is a coin that most collectors would be afraid to crack out and resubmit to either another grading service or for upgrading with the same grading service. PCI coins that I have seen in the past are generally extremely crippled coins in their holder. There is no potential for upgrades and quite often there are other problems associated with the coin.
For hidden bargains in mint state coins, I prefer ICG.
MIke
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
You and wondercoin! We will have to send you guys to picture making school!
I know, I had to go myself several years ago!
Insurance Fees Insurance Coverage
Desired Fee in Addition to Postage
$0.01 to $50.00
$1.30
50.01 to 100.00
2.20
100.01 to 200.00
3.20
200.01 to 300.00
4.20
300.01 to 400.00
5.20
400.01 to 500.00
6.20
500.01 to 600.00
7.20
600.01 to 700.00
8.20
700.01 to 800.00
9.20
800.01 to 900.00
10.20
900.01 to 1,000.00
11.20
1,000.01 to 5,000.00 $11.20 plus $1.00 for each $100 or fraction thereof over $1,000 in desired coverage
09/07/2006
Can anyone explain where CDN gets that 58% number?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
09/07/2006
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
PCI MS63
PCGS MS63
NGC MS62