Citizens of this great republic do not answer to threats from so-called barrons and house of lords from whenever. Our elected representatives answer to us. We do not answer to the UN or some other totalitarian body. You seem to think its ok for him to threaten a board member just because he has a flag at the UN. You seem to think its ok in the name of international cooperation for him to keep harrassing a board member for no reason.
I guess I miss the point where "the Hong Kong group" is wrong- they clearly have gone beyond the call of duty in trying to complete this transaction.
Some others have stated that they have tried every scam technique in the book - I disagree (the scammers mimick the way things are actually done)
the '1200 word fine print' states in there that foreign ust pay double and PAYPAL must be verified - they did that. The original fine print is so long and convoluted, it would be easy not to understand or be confused on some small phrase.
Surely Jon must have broken some eBay rules himself by contacting the other eBay sellers who have 'sold' to this man stating his concerns and adding a link to this thread (one who obviously sent it to Vivien)
I have bought/sold with foreign people and even though adds some time, also adds some value on end price.
This transaction should never have been completed. Jon clearly states that for this auction that he will only ship to the US. The fact that he mentions in his "Fine Print" about international shipping is irrelevent. The fine print contains all kinds of company policies that do not pertain to this auction. Jon may very well run other auctions, or choose to in the future that will allow international addresses. Any good businessman will create policies for future transactions well in advance.
If I were Jon, and I really didn't want to ship overseas, I would have politely informed our good Baron, as well as eBay, that he violated the terms of the auction and then I would have have either offered the next bidder the item or requested a credit from eBay.
If our good Baron insisted as he did with forwarding a PayPal payment, I would have simply declined the payment. End of story. Its a shame that so many hard feelings had to be created over the consumation of the transaction.
All sellers have the right to determine the terms of sale as long as those terms fall within the eBay guidelines. His shipping to US only is well within those guidelines, in fact a check box is in the listing form. There are many reasons to accept international bids as well as many reasons to decline them. That is a decision for Jon to make and not for our domestic and international forum members.
<< <i>Surely Jon must have broken some eBay rules himself by contacting the other eBay sellers who have 'sold' to this man stating his concerns and adding a link to this thread (one who obviously sent it to Vivien) >>
Maybe so, but I also sent the link of this thread to the buyer.
And toyonakataro I have no problem with you sending the thread link to the buyer.....my reason for the thread was for our members here to learn and educate about possible frauds that can occur on ebay.......I learned quite a bit myself......in fact I would welcome the Baron to post here it would certainly shed some light on his side........that is the great thing about living in the USA that we have the ability to say what we want to say.......
re ebay and rules...if you go back in history when ebay first started in the bay area ebay was all about talking with each other via email and group talks were the common.....
this is from a story on Pierre and I quote
Question....How did you communicate those values, which remain so important to eBay today?
A: It was all through e-mail. Quite often, I would receive an e-mail saying, "Hey, this guy clearly ripped me off because it's been a week since the auction ended, and I haven't heard from him, and I've sent him a dozen e-mails in the last three hours, and he hasn't responded to a single one." I would say, "Put yourself in the other person's shoes, maybe they don't turn on their computer every day. Don't jump to negative conclusions, maybe there's a reasonable explanation." In almost all cases, eventually I would get back an e-mail saying, "Oh, you were right, everything's fine."
I think Scarsdale coin did nothing wrong, thats just my opinion. Every time I've been scammed, it has been from someone out of the country. I no longer sell out of the country because of it. There is simply no recourse if something happens. Even now that he got his money, the other guy can still file a complaint with a lot of people. Ebay, etc. Does he have proof that the baron received the item? You have proof that you sent it. That doesnt matter. Ebay will still hold you liable if he claims he never received the item. Nothing will happen, but if it happens twice, you are kicked off. Good thing you didnt use Paypal, if you cant prove he got the item, EVEN IF YOU SENT IT, they will refund the money to him. In the US I can put a delivery confirmation on anything I ship. Cant always to that outside the US, so I chose to quit doing it. It may cost me a few sales, but just got tired of losing money.
<< <i>... Meanwhile, we reserve the right to hold you responsible for any consequence caused by such false accusation.
Without prejudice, Vivien Au-Yeung Assistant to Baron Yuen of Aveley
...Meanwhile, if you intend to continue holding the stand that I am planning some conniving scheme to cheat you, I have my legal team on standby already; but I doubt this is going to do either one of us any good.
Without prejudice, Andrew Yuen >>
Bochiman
Your are absolutely correct. This is language from the first salvo of emails. Vivien has not in any way contradicted herself and thus, i believe we can be confident that she is not in any way "slipping."
<< <i>This thread may provide insights into why the US has a trade deficit. >>
doubtful that this thread has anything to do with trade deficits, I would suggest that the barely subsistant wage that workers earn in many countries has a lot more to do with it. Barely subsistant is probably an exaggeration.
Dare I add, copyright violations, knock-offs, illegal dumping, government subsidies, tariffs etc.?
May I point out that it may be easy for you to, and I quote, "ignore this message and have a nice day......."; I have been spending my whole weekend (for your information, it is 1:45 in the morning and I am still in the office) in front of the computer answering emails from people I do not even know. I suppose they are just curious after reading your thread and try to find out more. And then there are those from whom we have completed a transaction recently wondering if they may still be cheated! While I can appreciate your effort in protecting your interests, have you thought about protecting Baron Yuen's privacy when you post Baron Yuen's business and private addresses on the forum? If you would put yourself in my shoe, you would understand the difficult position I am stuck in. On the one hand, I have placed a bid on Baron Yuen's behalf after reading the contradictory fine print on your listing. Baron Yuen was only interested in picking up a few sets of coin collections as Christmas gifts and he did ask me to check with you if you would ship to Hong Kong. Unfortunately, you did not answer until after the bid was placed. On the other hand, since we won the bid, I felt obligated that we should honour our bid. Therefore, I was making an extra effort to adhere to your payment requirements. Although we are not familiar with the PayPal system, we took the initiative to pay you first. In Hong Kong, we are very used to doing mail order with credit card. Since Baron Yuen is a VIP of American Express and is a member of the Centurion Card which has no limit, I thought that would have been the next best way of settling this transaction. When you replied that you do not take American Express, I offered to transfer cash into your account which in fact is the most preferred way of payment in the business world. I honestly do not know what I have done wrong to create such a big commotion.
I wish you a nice day and I hope you can sleep well tonight knowing that this calamity may cost me my job when Baron Yuen returns to his office next week.
I cordially request that you do not post this message on the forum.
and my reply...hopefully the end..... PS: The physical postage cost to ship this item was $ 54.80 and does not include the cost of packing materials etc...I also made a special trip to the post office today to try to get it going to them a bit faster instead of waiting for our regular ship out on Monday...
Dear Vivien:
We have now completed your transaction by shipping the item to the Most Hon. Baron Andrew S. Yuen of Aveley, Lord of Cawstone Hall via USPS on 12/13/2003. I hope that he enjoys it and I thank you for your efforts!
Initially, I would have gone to 2nd highest bidder and made them an offer they could not refuse - and saved a lot of time and headaches. If refused I would have relisted item. Shipping overseas is not worth the time and hassle. IMHO
I've only done one int'l transaction on ebay, & I got cash in hand before shipping. After reading this thread, though, it's gonna be "no international sales" for me. This is way too messy.
<< <i>I hope you can sleep well tonight knowing that this calamity may cost me my job when Baron Yuen returns to his office next week. >>
What a crock. I can't believe anybody is buying this schtick. There is no "Baron". The whole story is the biggest line of BS to come down the pike since Clinton said "I did not have sex with that woman". It it smells like crap, it usually is, and with this one you can slice the stench with a knife.
<< This thread may provide insights into why the US has a trade deficit. >>
doubtful that this thread has anything to do with trade deficits, I would suggest that the barely subsistant wage that workers earn in many countries has a lot more to do with it. Barely subsistant is probably an exaggeration.
Dare I add, copyright violations, knock-offs, illegal dumping, government subsidies, tariffs etc.?
The way things are done in many Asian countries, you may very well have cost her her job. Most asian countries don't have the same job protections/discrimination protections that we have.
For the record, I think Jon went above what he normally would have to ship it internationally when he didn't want to. I do think he honoured the contradictory text (and to say that was just normal company text and shouldn't matter, like someone pointed out, is BS....if it doesn't pertain to that particular auction then it shouldn't be there.....no excuse for being a lazy seller/bidder).
WingedLiberty....funny that you think I am being PC.....people that know me think just the opposite..I don't believe in PCness for the most part and believe everyone is the same, but I do allow for cultural allowances...I guess just because I have seen/experienced it.
Russ...you have repeatedly been "down" on the bidder in this thread.....time will tell, but so far, people have gotten paid. Aside from your negative view on this, is there anything substantial that you can point to that it is a scam? Have you been scammed this way?
sigh....I am all for nailing scammers and saving people, but this one just never got far enough to be a scam and instead of just giving Jon suggestions and letting him do it, many people jumped on the "scammer" bandwagon
Something just crossed my mind... it's come up a lot that the fine print was contradictory... HOWEVER...
The bidding party knew to email Jon for permission to bid, to which he responded no. Instead of waiting for his response, as it would be logical to expect, they placed a bid, questioning why the bothered to email Jon in the first place. With that in mind, I think Jon went above and beyond the call of duty. That said, he did what was necessary to protect himself, and I don't believe he has anything to apologize about, except maybe taking on the hassle in the first place.
It's nice that he got the money and the transaction went well. It does not exclude that they were trying to scam him. There are a lot of flaming red flags in those Emails. They may have decided to just pay up when it was obvious he wasn't going to get taken.
It may or may not have. I am not psychic enough to say which it is. Others are obviously more psychic than me and can definitively say which it is.
Airplanenut....you could be right. Or, another way of looking at it may be on something Vivien said in an email....that she was making the bids for the baron....I think an original email said "a bid has already been placed"...not necessarily that he placed it. Maybe she did. Maybe he sent email asking for clarification but she already bid. Too many things that are in the mix on this for me to say. You have baron, vivien (supposedly separate people...one working for the other), and Scarsdalecoin (Jon), and Pam, and other sellers. It isn't just 1 seller=1 bidder. Also, the email could have been sent asking for clarification, but due to timezone differences and the desire for the product, the person bids anyway hoping to pay extra for shipping and have the seller go ahead and sell to them. If you REALLY wanted something, would you try to bend the rules a bit to your benefit? I know a lot of people on this board already do (the ones that email a seller asking him to cancel the auction and sell to them directly...that is bending the rules to their favor, right?).
Again, I was not party to either side, I can see why it would look like a potential scam and I can see where it could be honest. I am just glad I was not on either side of it. Too messy.
Jon, again, glad you got paid and best of luck to ya.
Its funny, but the wisest words in this thread are from our youngest respondant. Jeremy has displayed wisdom beyond his years. I would recommend everyone re-read his last post.
To Miss Vivien Au-Yeung The ONLY reason you would be FIRED is the indiscretion below:
"Since Baron Yuen is a VIP of American Express and is a member of the Centurion Card which has no limit, I thought that would have been the next best way of settling this transaction."
No truly professional secretary would divulge such PRIVATE INFORMATION!
tlhoy: Excellent observation. All the more reason that it validates that its a scam. The assistant Vivian has covered every method of payment known to God.
"Baron Yuen was only interested in picking up a few sets of coin collections as Christmas gifts and he did ask me to check with you if you would ship to Hong Kong. Unfortunately, you did not answer until after the bid was placed."
"Unfortunately, you did not answer until after the bid was placed."
"Unfortunately, you did not answer until after the bid was placed." Your legal department will see YOU HAVE NO CASE! Glenn
guys like Bociman make me puke. Why a dunce could read right thru this sorry tale. Thanks goodness Jon did what he did including alerting all of us (including some of us imbiciles) and rightfully so. Many of us have been taken by similar scams. I don't trust this baron von highness whatchmacallit - this was a wonderful read. B/C Jon did what he did - he was PAID. If you just don't get it - forget it!! Whoever trys to suck up and otherwise justify any of this orient onion scam is probably in on the scam or something very close and should be flogged
----- Original Message ----- From: From the office of The Most Hon. Baron Andrew S. Yuen of Aveley, Lord of Cawstone Hall To: Jon Lerner Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:51 PM Subject: Re: Western Union Auction Payments – Order Pending
Dear Mr. Lerner,
Thank you for your message. I assume from the context that we do not need to send the courier to pick the parcel up. Please advise how much we owe you for shipping and handling.
Vivien Au-Yeung Assistant to Baron Yuen of Aveley
Vivien,
There is no need to send a courier, we have shipped the order via USPS Air Parcel Post should you require Customs Label # or Insurance Tracking # just let me know. Est. delivery time is 7-10 days. We require no further payment for Shipping or handling. Regards, Jon
I am glad people like me make you puke....like you stated. I guess people like you just believe in the worst in human nature or people from other countries?
You must have been wronged in life starting when you were young. I don't live in a naive world and I think jon did do well to protect himself, but I still see no need for all the hostility that some have expressed in this thread. Until proven guilty, one should be innocent. Doesn't mean not to do due diligence in working with them, but so many people have passed sentence on a person/people they have never met just because of how something was done.
You know, I haven't been on the boards too long (less than a year) but I have bought from board members. I have even had some board members ***Gasp*** trust me. But, they have never met me and really didn't have too much direct communication with me prior to me buying from them. Should they have assumed I was a scam artist and setting them up? It is an old scam to gain someone's trust so you can scam them larger later, right?
I will drop this again now, I am just saddened by how some people in the US act like complete a-holes...especially relating to people they have never met nor never interacted with.
Again, if you read this, I guess you will be puking again since that is the feeling you get "from people like me", right?
Marcmoish: Thanks for the support., and also thanks to ScarsdaleCoin for exposing this so called Barron.
Bochiman: I guess you're another foreigner bashing America. At least in this country we give you the right to do that. I guess if you were in France, you'd be a socialist or a communist and support tyrrany and not have the guts to fight against terrorism. Just another foreigner bashing America and jealous of our prosperity. And now you are attacking Marcmoish's childhood and ASSuming that he was wronged. You liberals think you know everything and know whats good for all of us. So who is ASSuming now. You made it personal, and so will I.
This will be my last post to this thread as I will let it die and get buried since I have found out how much the vehemence that many of our US born posters posting in the thread has bothered some of our "non-US" brothers in numismatics. I will respect the PM I received from a member on that.
But, I did want to make a record straight.... Brian.....Jon did not "expose" anyone. He jumped through hoops, the "Baron" jumped through hoops. It looked like it could go either way (scam or get paid) and Jon did get paid. Nothing bounced, no funny money, he got paid he sent the goods. No expose there "Geraldo".
Another thing Brian, I sent you a PM with a link to a thread I was posting in earlier in the week on the open forum. Only reason I bothered to do that was to show you just how wrong you are in what you are assuming about me. You say I am another foreigner bashing America. I really take umbrage with that Brian. I am US born (for many generations), likely am of the same color/race you are (shouldn't matter, but from your ramblings it would seem to make a difference to you), and I served time serving the US in the military to protect it from terrorists, communists, etc Can you say the same? I have my DD214, do you have yours? Btw...I am republican and not liberal, but I can still see both sides of the coin. I don't walk around with a 2-headed coin and think the world is only 1 way. I wasn't attacking his childhood, btw, but was making an assumption that anyone that just comes out of the blue in a thread to spout the way he had has had a bad life and probably a bad or troubled upbringing. More true than not most of the time.
For our foreign numismatic brothers (that's "non-US" born to you Brian, and the others), I apologize that this thread has caused you heartburn and troubled you. Not everyone is like the ones posting the way they have here. Many are really good people.
Now, this will be my last post here in this thread, I will let it die. We shall see if others will as well or if they must get the last thread. If you have something to say, or only wish to attack me, feel free to PM me. I didn't back away when I was in the US Army, and I wont back away now....and, I will answer all civil questions with polite answers.
Ron
<< <i>Marcmoish: Thanks for the support., and also thanks to ScarsdaleCoin for exposing this so called Barron.
Bochiman: I guess you're another foreigner bashing America. At least in this country we give you the right to do that. I guess if you were in France, you'd be a socialist or a communist and support tyrrany and not have the guts to fight against terrorism. Just another foreigner bashing America and jealous of our prosperity. And now you are attacking Marcmoish's childhood and ASSuming that he was wronged. You liberals think you know everything and know whats good for all of us. So who is ASSuming now. You made it personal, and so will I. >>
Too bad about the neg, Jon. You had to protect yourself.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Jon did have to protect himself and I think he went about many things in a great way, but, some/much of it seemed public and "tongue-in-cheek". If I were a buyer, I wouldn't appreciate some of it, nor the comments that were so negative by many others that voiced them in this thread.
1st and foremost, I think Jon had to protect himself...and I think he learned some new/good things. I learned from what Jon did. I am sorry he got a neg. However, there were some (WingedLiberty and others) who were so negative-focused that, if I were in the buyer's shoes, I wouldn't appreciate it either...could make it much harder for him to purchase future items (if he is legit..which, with Jon and some of the other sellers, it appears he was......as Jon had contacted other sellers and I am sure they will tell him (and he will tell us) if they get scammed). I know that WingedLiberty called me a liberal and a non-American because I voiced my opinion and it wasn't the same as his negative opinion. Heck, I even was nice and adult enough to PM him and tell him what I am (conservative and born US citizen who served in the USArmy (wonder if he served our country?)) and invite a PM response if he wanted....never a reply from him on that. Not even an apology.
So, with posts like some people have put here, is it any wonder the buyer feels his privacy was stamped on?
Actually, I think I need to weigh in on the side of those who think it's Mr. Yuen who is more deserving of an apology. Jeremy's post shows wisdom, but there is a deeper wisdom available to anyone who has done much international business on eBay. First of all, ScarsdaleCoin's auction said both that he would not ship outside the US ... but also that overseas shipping would cost extra. The implication is that he had started to allow overseas shipping but hadn't properly edited his entire T&Cs; benefit of the doubt here goes to the buyer. I don't know how long he waited for a response before posting his bid or how long before the auction closed, but I think anyone who has much eBay experience is aware of how often questions posted about auctions don't get answered in a timely fashion -- or at all. Moreover, with lots of panic and apprehension and nothing more than circumstantial evidence suggesting Yuen might be a fraud, he sent a very insulting email calling Mr. Yuen a despicable scammer. I pity his administrative assistant, Vivien, for having to pick up the pieces and deal with this.
It's amazing that so many people here jump instantaneously to conclusions based on scanty evidence without much attempt to verify the information provided by the buyer. I just did a quick search on the internet and while I could find nothing linking Yuen with the title of Baron -- although there is or was an Aveley Manor -- I did find info on a Mr. Andrew S. Yuen of Hong Kong indicating he is a member of the Board of Directors, Hong Kong Critical Components Manufacturers Assn., and a Patron of the Hong Kong AIDS Concern. If this is the same as "our" Mr. Andrew S. Yuen, he seems to be a respected fellow. Also, the Crown has awarded non-hereditary titles to outstanding public servants and Mr. Yuen's AIDS service alone could potentially account for such an award. I don't know whether or not these are tracked on the same rolls as the hereditary peerage.
I have no way of knowing who "our" Mr. Yuen is, whether he truly is a Baron, or whether he might be what he has been accused on this thread of being. Frankly, though, no firm evidence has been provided on this thread to support the negative accusations. There's a lot more evidence for agitated chauvinism. Dealing with foreigners is no worse or better than dealing with Americans, although there are several countries where particular care should be taken. (After all, ACG dealers aren't on the same plane as PCGS dealers, are they?) Anyone thinking -- or fearing -- dealing with foreign buyers should check out some recommended reading on another thread; look for my long post about halfway down the page.
Copied from the auction in question: We do not ship outside US unless you ask us in advance to see if this is possible!!! Again I do not ship internationally unless you have made arrangements before the auction ends!
Copied from zenny's post which I believe hits the nail on the head: 9: if you're gonna have fine print, make it unequivocal
The issue for me is simply that the buyer did not comply with the auction terms but then the seller complicated matters by not sticking to his own terms.
Regardless of whether or not this guy paid, he is a liar..He is not a Lord, nor a Baron...Since they are reading these boards I am sure they will want to pursue a libel action against me....http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld/ldhome.htm....This site lists ALL members of the House of Lords...He aint on it......
Hey.......EVEN a COUNTERFEITER spends real money, to keep from being caught. Jon, you did well to force the conditions to your favor. You got paid, where a lot of suckers would have lost......
I'm just a little appalled by some of the people on this board. After all, this guy became a CUSTOMER, even if he became one by misinterpreting the auction rules and regulations. Many people seem so ready to accuse him of lying, scamming, cheating, stealing, etc. when it seems pretty obvious to me that the guy just wanted to buy the item. Customers should be treated with respect and a little understanding. Not everyone is 100% coin and computer savvy, and may require just a little bit of attention. Yes, obviosuly this auction did not go as the seller inteneded but as a SELLER he should have lived up to his responsiblity and worked a little harder to HELP the customer. Customers pay the bills, they are the ones that put food on the SELLER'S table, not the other way around. Businesses exist to SERVE customers, customers do not exist to SERVE businesses.
I am shocked at how many people are ready to jump all over customers- I see it everyday. Business's EXPECT people to just throw money at them, the art of customer service is dead. As a customer MY only job is to make an honest and appropriate payment- everything else is the SELLER'S job.
If a person is the higher bidder (customer) for your goods, WHO CARES WHAT he calls himself? You know that status is huge in asian cultures, right? Losing face is real bad.
So, the guy has status, or wants to, and the postings of some with full name and address posted, make him lose face.
Tell you what, if someone wants to pay me hundreds of dollars for my stuff, and is willing to wait and pay the extras, then he can call himself Prince Lord King for all I care.
As for saying counterfeiters use real money to keep from getting caught...sure they do. Now, prove this guy is a fraud. You can't, can you? You hope he is. You want him to be, because it is always cool to dogpile on people/businesses having problems.
Good thing so many of the people who post here are never doubted and never had to prove themselves....right?
Sheeesh...the way some of you talk, you make me think you are french or something and not from the US or any other civilized country Zenny Askari HavanaJoe
Unclejoe....you should check out some of the prior postings in this thread or look at the old descriptions before they were changed after this thread......the ebay posting said no non-US bidders/shipping (or whatever the exact wording was). In the very long and convoluted text of the description it also said overseas shipping will be DOUBLE the normal shipping (which, it costs more to ship overseas, so that was fine). So, the auction had mixed messages I would think.....don't bid and it will cost you 2ble if you do bid and win for shipping.
two quick points for you guys.....the Barron emailed me and I told him "PLEASE DO NOT BID" so regardless of "terms" in my fine print....it was clear that I did not want to ship this item overseas....
re did I expect a neg....not really, I thought that he would not leave any feedback....
and now may I wish ALL of the board a happy and healthy New Year
<< <i>it was clear that I did not want to ship this item overseas >>
No, Jon, it really wasn't clear. It is now -- but wasn't then. As I outlined above, it would be very easy for someone to interpret your T&Cs as having formerly banned it, but incompletely revised it upon recently changing your mind. On the Internet -- and especially eBay -- it pays to be a little more tolerant than usual because it's so much easier to miscommunicate and misinterpret intent -- which is why so many people here use emoticons. (And very serious flame wars have occurred on this very forum over the lack of a single smiley face or wink to indicate teasing rather than a put-down.)
As I noted in the other thread I provided a link to, it is not that difficult to extend your circle of bidders to non-US customers. In fact, with the dollar being down, it's really a good deal for them to "buy American" and so can be more profitable to you.
A happy -- and prosperous -- New Year to you all!!
Comments
Citizens of this great republic do not answer to threats from so-called barrons and house of lords from whenever. Our elected representatives answer to us. We do not answer to the UN or some other totalitarian body.
You seem to think its ok for him to threaten a board member just because he has a flag at the UN.
You seem to think its ok in the name of international cooperation for him to keep harrassing a board member for no reason.
Some others have stated that they have tried every scam technique in the book - I disagree (the scammers mimick the way things are actually done)
the '1200 word fine print' states in there that foreign ust pay double and PAYPAL must be verified - they did that. The original fine print is so long and convoluted, it would be easy not to understand or be confused on some small phrase.
Surely Jon must have broken some eBay rules himself by contacting the other eBay sellers who have 'sold' to this man stating his concerns and adding a link to this thread (one who obviously sent it to Vivien)
I have bought/sold with foreign people and even though adds some time, also adds some value on end price.
If I were Jon, and I really didn't want to ship overseas, I would have politely informed our good Baron, as well as eBay, that he violated the terms of the auction and then I would have have either offered the next bidder the item or requested a credit from eBay.
If our good Baron insisted as he did with forwarding a PayPal payment, I would have simply declined the payment. End of story. Its a shame that so many hard feelings had to be created over the consumation of the transaction.
All sellers have the right to determine the terms of sale as long as those terms fall within the eBay guidelines. His shipping to US only is well within those guidelines, in fact a check box is in the listing form. There are many reasons to accept international bids as well as many reasons to decline them. That is a decision for Jon to make and not for our domestic and international forum members.
<< <i>Surely Jon must have broken some eBay rules himself by contacting the other eBay sellers who have 'sold' to this man stating his concerns and adding a link to this thread (one who obviously sent it to Vivien) >>
Maybe so, but I also sent the link of this thread to the buyer.
re ebay and rules...if you go back in history when ebay first started in the bay area ebay was all about talking with each other via email and group talks were the common.....
this is from a story on Pierre and I quote
Question....How did you communicate those values, which remain so important to eBay today?
A: It was all through e-mail. Quite often, I would receive an e-mail saying, "Hey, this guy clearly ripped me off because it's been a week since the auction ended, and I haven't heard from him, and I've sent him a dozen e-mails in the last three hours, and he hasn't responded to a single one." I would say, "Put yourself in the other person's shoes, maybe they don't turn on their computer every day. Don't jump to negative conclusions, maybe there's a reasonable explanation." In almost all cases, eventually I would get back an e-mail saying, "Oh, you were right, everything's fine."
<< <i>...
Meanwhile, we reserve the right to hold you responsible for any consequence caused by such false accusation.
Without prejudice,
Vivien Au-Yeung
Assistant to Baron Yuen of Aveley
...Meanwhile, if you intend to continue holding the stand that I am planning some conniving scheme to cheat you, I have my legal team on standby already; but I doubt this is going to do either one of us any good.
Without prejudice,
Andrew Yuen >>
Bochiman
Your are absolutely correct. This is language from the first salvo of emails. Vivien has not in any way contradicted herself and thus, i believe we can be confident that she is not in any way "slipping."
She still gets my vote for assistant of the year.
How could i have ever doubted her?
z
<< <i>This thread may provide insights into why the US has a trade deficit. >>
doubtful that this thread has anything to do with trade deficits, I would suggest that the barely subsistant wage that workers earn in many countries has a lot more to do with it. Barely subsistant is probably an exaggeration.
Dare I add, copyright violations, knock-offs, illegal dumping, government subsidies, tariffs etc.?
Dear Mr. Lerner,
May I point out that it may be easy for you to, and I quote, "ignore this message and have a nice day......."; I have been spending my whole weekend (for your information, it is 1:45 in the morning and I am still in the office) in front of the computer answering emails from people I do not even know. I suppose they are just curious after reading your thread and try to find out more. And then there are those from whom we have completed a transaction recently wondering if they may still be cheated! While I can appreciate your effort in protecting your interests, have you thought about protecting Baron Yuen's privacy when you post Baron Yuen's business and private addresses on the forum? If you would put yourself in my shoe, you would understand the difficult position I am stuck in. On the one hand, I have placed a bid on Baron Yuen's behalf after reading the contradictory fine print on your listing. Baron Yuen was only interested in picking up a few sets of coin collections as Christmas gifts and he did ask me to check with you if you would ship to Hong Kong. Unfortunately, you did not answer until after the bid was placed. On the other hand, since we won the bid, I felt obligated that we should honour our bid. Therefore, I was making an extra effort to adhere to your payment requirements. Although we are not familiar with the PayPal system, we took the initiative to pay you first. In Hong Kong, we are very used to doing mail order with credit card. Since Baron Yuen is a VIP of American Express and is a member of the Centurion Card which has no limit, I thought that would have been the next best way of settling this transaction. When you replied that you do not take American Express, I offered to transfer cash into your account which in fact is the most preferred way of payment in the business world. I honestly do not know what I have done wrong to create such a big commotion.
I wish you a nice day and I hope you can sleep well tonight knowing that this calamity may cost me my job when Baron Yuen returns to his office next week.
I cordially request that you do not post this message on the forum.
Vivien Au-Yeung
PS: The physical postage cost to ship this item was $ 54.80 and does not include the cost of packing materials etc...I also made a special trip to the post office today to try to get it going to them a bit faster instead of waiting for our regular ship out on Monday...
Dear Vivien:
We have now completed your transaction by shipping the item to the Most Hon. Baron Andrew S. Yuen of Aveley, Lord of Cawstone Hall via USPS on 12/13/2003. I hope that he enjoys it and I thank you for your efforts!
Jon Lerner
Ray
<< <i>I think you owe them an apology, Jon.
Ray >>
I'm inclined to agree- at the end of it all, it was just a guy trying to buy a coin.
Silver American Eagles ROCK
<< <i>I hope you can sleep well tonight knowing that this calamity may cost me my job when Baron Yuen returns to his office next week. >>
What a crock. I can't believe anybody is buying this schtick. There is no "Baron". The whole story is the biggest line of BS to come down the pike since Clinton said "I did not have sex with that woman". It it smells like crap, it usually is, and with this one you can slice the stench with a knife.
Russ, NCNE
doubtful that this thread has anything to do with trade deficits, I would suggest that the barely subsistant wage that workers earn in many countries has a lot more to do with it. Barely subsistant is probably an exaggeration.
Dare I add, copyright violations, knock-offs, illegal dumping, government subsidies, tariffs etc.?
Sage words that bare repeating.
The way things are done in many Asian countries, you may very well have cost her her job.
Most asian countries don't have the same job protections/discrimination protections that we have.
For the record, I think Jon went above what he normally would have to ship it internationally when he didn't want to.
I do think he honoured the contradictory text (and to say that was just normal company text and shouldn't matter, like someone pointed out, is BS....if it doesn't pertain to that particular auction then it shouldn't be there.....no excuse for being a lazy seller/bidder).
WingedLiberty....funny that you think I am being PC.....people that know me think just the opposite..I don't believe in PCness for the most part and believe everyone is the same, but I do allow for cultural allowances...I guess just because I have seen/experienced it.
Russ...you have repeatedly been "down" on the bidder in this thread.....time will tell, but so far, people have gotten paid. Aside from your negative view on this, is there anything substantial that you can point to that it is a scam? Have you been scammed this way?
sigh....I am all for nailing scammers and saving people, but this one just never got far enough to be a scam and instead of just giving Jon suggestions and letting him do it, many people jumped on the "scammer" bandwagon
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
The bidding party knew to email Jon for permission to bid, to which he responded no. Instead of waiting for his response, as it would be logical to expect, they placed a bid, questioning why the bothered to email Jon in the first place. With that in mind, I think Jon went above and beyond the call of duty. That said, he did what was necessary to protect himself, and I don't believe he has anything to apologize about, except maybe taking on the hassle in the first place.
Jeremy
<< <i>time will tell, but so far, people have gotten paid. >>
I'm sure Jon making it public had nothing to do with that.
Russ, NCNE
It may or may not have. I am not psychic enough to say which it is. Others are obviously more psychic than me and can definitively say which it is.
Airplanenut....you could be right. Or, another way of looking at it may be on something Vivien said in an email....that she was making the bids for the baron....I think an original email said "a bid has already been placed"...not necessarily that he placed it. Maybe she did. Maybe he sent email asking for clarification but she already bid. Too many things that are in the mix on this for me to say. You have baron, vivien (supposedly separate people...one working for the other), and Scarsdalecoin (Jon), and Pam, and other sellers. It isn't just 1 seller=1 bidder.
Also, the email could have been sent asking for clarification, but due to timezone differences and the desire for the product, the person bids anyway hoping to pay extra for shipping and have the seller go ahead and sell to them. If you REALLY wanted something, would you try to bend the rules a bit to your benefit? I know a lot of people on this board already do (the ones that email a seller asking him to cancel the auction and sell to them directly...that is bending the rules to their favor, right?).
Again, I was not party to either side, I can see why it would look like a potential scam and I can see where it could be honest. I am just glad I was not on either side of it. Too messy.
Jon, again, glad you got paid and best of luck to ya.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
The ONLY reason you would be FIRED is the indiscretion below:
"Since Baron Yuen is a VIP of American Express and is a member of the Centurion Card which has no limit, I thought that would have been the next best way of settling this transaction."
No truly professional secretary would divulge such PRIVATE INFORMATION!
Excellent observation. All the more reason that it validates that its a scam. The assistant Vivian has covered every method of payment known to God.
1.paypal
2.western union.
3.cashier's check.
4. cash
5. bank wire.
6.American Express Optima Centurion
all delievered by courier out of a sports shop.
How clever.
We must have MORON written on our foreheads.
"Baron Yuen was only interested in picking up a few sets of coin collections as Christmas gifts and he did ask me to check with you if you would ship to Hong Kong. Unfortunately, you did not answer until after the bid was placed."
"Unfortunately, you did not answer until after the bid was placed."
"Unfortunately, you did not answer until after the bid was placed."
Your legal department will see YOU HAVE NO CASE!
Glenn
B/C Jon did what he did - he was PAID. If you just don't get it - forget it!!
Whoever trys to suck up and otherwise justify any of this orient onion scam is probably in on the scam or something very close and should be flogged
Brian your right on the money umm merc
Marc
From: From the office of The Most Hon. Baron Andrew S. Yuen of Aveley, Lord of Cawstone Hall
To: Jon Lerner
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Western Union Auction Payments – Order Pending
Dear Mr. Lerner,
Thank you for your message. I assume from the context that we do not need to send the courier to pick the parcel up. Please advise how much we owe you for shipping and handling.
Vivien Au-Yeung
Assistant to Baron Yuen of Aveley
Vivien,
There is no need to send a courier, we have shipped the order via USPS Air Parcel Post
should you require Customs Label # or Insurance Tracking # just let me know. Est. delivery time is 7-10 days. We require no further payment for Shipping or handling. Regards, Jon
I am glad people like me make you puke....like you stated.
I guess people like you just believe in the worst in human nature or people from other countries?
You must have been wronged in life starting when you were young. I don't live in a naive world and I think jon did do well to protect himself, but I still see no need for all the hostility that some have expressed in this thread. Until proven guilty, one should be innocent. Doesn't mean not to do due diligence in working with them, but so many people have passed sentence on a person/people they have never met just because of how something was done.
You know, I haven't been on the boards too long (less than a year) but I have bought from board members. I have even had some board members ***Gasp*** trust me. But, they have never met me and really didn't have too much direct communication with me prior to me buying from them. Should they have assumed I was a scam artist and setting them up?
It is an old scam to gain someone's trust so you can scam them larger later, right?
I will drop this again now, I am just saddened by how some people in the US act like complete a-holes...especially relating to people they have never met nor never interacted with.
Again, if you read this, I guess you will be puking again since that is the feeling you get "from people like me", right?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Marcmoish:
Thanks for the support., and also thanks to ScarsdaleCoin for exposing this so called Barron.
Bochiman:
I guess you're another foreigner bashing America. At least in this country we give you the right to do that. I guess if you were in France, you'd be a socialist or a communist and support tyrrany and not have the guts to fight against terrorism.
Just another foreigner bashing America and jealous of our prosperity. And now you are attacking Marcmoish's childhood and ASSuming that he was wronged. You liberals think you know everything and know whats good for all of us. So who is ASSuming now. You made it personal, and so will I.
But, I did want to make a record straight....
Brian.....Jon did not "expose" anyone. He jumped through hoops, the "Baron" jumped through hoops. It looked like it could go either way (scam or get paid) and Jon did get paid. Nothing bounced, no funny money, he got paid he sent the goods. No expose there "Geraldo".
Another thing Brian, I sent you a PM with a link to a thread I was posting in earlier in the week on the open forum. Only reason I bothered to do that was to show you just how wrong you are in what you are assuming about me. You say I am another foreigner bashing America.
I really take umbrage with that Brian. I am US born (for many generations), likely am of the same color/race you are (shouldn't matter, but from your ramblings it would seem to make a difference to you), and I served time serving the US in the military to protect it from terrorists, communists, etc Can you say the same? I have my DD214, do you have yours?
Btw...I am republican and not liberal, but I can still see both sides of the coin. I don't walk around with a 2-headed coin and think the world is only 1 way.
I wasn't attacking his childhood, btw, but was making an assumption that anyone that just comes out of the blue in a thread to spout the way he had has had a bad life and probably a bad or troubled upbringing. More true than not most of the time.
For our foreign numismatic brothers (that's "non-US" born to you Brian, and the others), I apologize that this thread has caused you heartburn and troubled you. Not everyone is like the ones posting the way they have here. Many are really good people.
Now, this will be my last post here in this thread, I will let it die. We shall see if others will as well or if they must get the last thread.
If you have something to say, or only wish to attack me, feel free to PM me. I didn't back away when I was in the US Army, and I wont back away now....and, I will answer all civil questions with polite answers.
Ron
<< <i>Marcmoish:
Thanks for the support., and also thanks to ScarsdaleCoin for exposing this so called Barron.
Bochiman:
I guess you're another foreigner bashing America. At least in this country we give you the right to do that. I guess if you were in France, you'd be a socialist or a communist and support tyrrany and not have the guts to fight against terrorism.
Just another foreigner bashing America and jealous of our prosperity. And now you are attacking Marcmoish's childhood and ASSuming that he was wronged. You liberals think you know everything and know whats good for all of us. So who is ASSuming now. You made it personal, and so will I. >>
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Jon - keep us updated - did they get it yet? did Vivien lose her job? did you leave feedback yet?
asyuen( 12) Dec-22-03 17:05:25 PST 2207051737 S
Complaint : Most inflexible. Difficult to work with. Does not respect buyer's privacy!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
If I were a buyer, I wouldn't appreciate some of it, nor the comments that were so negative by many others that voiced them in this thread.
1st and foremost, I think Jon had to protect himself...and I think he learned some new/good things. I learned from what Jon did. I am sorry he got a neg.
However, there were some (WingedLiberty and others) who were so negative-focused that, if I were in the buyer's shoes, I wouldn't appreciate it either...could make it much harder for him to purchase future items (if he is legit..which, with Jon and some of the other sellers, it appears he was......as Jon had contacted other sellers and I am sure they will tell him (and he will tell us) if they get scammed). I know that WingedLiberty called me a liberal and a non-American because I voiced my opinion and it wasn't the same as his negative opinion.
Heck, I even was nice and adult enough to PM him and tell him what I am (conservative and born US citizen who served in the USArmy (wonder if he served our country?)) and invite a PM response if he wanted....never a reply from him on that. Not even an apology.
So, with posts like some people have put here, is it any wonder the buyer feels his privacy was stamped on?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
here are the top ten things i've learned from this thread:
10: people will happily/readily judge others' behavior/character/intent on almost no evidence;
9: if you're gonna have fine print, make it unequivocal;
8: there is a market for Franklin mint stuff!!!!!;
7: our trade deficit may be due to the Franklin mint;
6: there may or may not be a certain "Baron" who gives out many nice gifts from the Franklin mint as holiday presents;
5: I'm pretty sure i wouldn't want personal information that i sent via email to another party disclosed on a public forum without my permission;
4: the USPS still rocks;
3: (even though it seems to cost an awful lot to ship a small package to Hong Kong);
2: you can search ebay by seller activity (although it feels uncomfortably somewhat like stalking, to me);
and
1: Vivien gets my vote (by a very slim margin over Stephanie) for CU forums Assistant of the Year - 2003.
z
It's amazing that so many people here jump instantaneously to conclusions based on scanty evidence without much attempt to verify the information provided by the buyer. I just did a quick search on the internet and while I could find nothing linking Yuen with the title of Baron -- although there is or was an Aveley Manor -- I did find info on a Mr. Andrew S. Yuen of Hong Kong indicating he is a member of the Board of Directors, Hong Kong Critical Components Manufacturers Assn., and a Patron of the Hong Kong AIDS Concern. If this is the same as "our" Mr. Andrew S. Yuen, he seems to be a respected fellow. Also, the Crown has awarded non-hereditary titles to outstanding public servants and Mr. Yuen's AIDS service alone could potentially account for such an award. I don't know whether or not these are tracked on the same rolls as the hereditary peerage.
I have no way of knowing who "our" Mr. Yuen is, whether he truly is a Baron, or whether he might be what he has been accused on this thread of being. Frankly, though, no firm evidence has been provided on this thread to support the negative accusations. There's a lot more evidence for agitated chauvinism. Dealing with foreigners is no worse or better than dealing with Americans, although there are several countries where particular care should be taken. (After all, ACG dealers aren't on the same plane as PCGS dealers, are they?) Anyone thinking -- or fearing -- dealing with foreign buyers should check out some
recommended reading on another thread; look for my long post about halfway down the page.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
We do not ship outside US unless you ask us in advance to see if this is possible!!! Again I do not ship internationally unless you have made arrangements before the auction ends!
Copied from zenny's post which I believe hits the nail on the head:
9: if you're gonna have fine print, make it unequivocal
The issue for me is simply that the buyer did not comply with the auction terms but then the seller complicated matters by not sticking to his own terms.
Joe.
I am shocked at how many people are ready to jump all over customers- I see it everyday. Business's EXPECT people to just throw money at them, the art of customer service is dead. As a customer MY only job is to make an honest and appropriate payment- everything else is the SELLER'S job.
Silver American Eagles ROCK
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
You know that status is huge in asian cultures, right? Losing face is real bad.
So, the guy has status, or wants to, and the postings of some with full name and address posted, make him lose face.
Tell you what, if someone wants to pay me hundreds of dollars for my stuff, and is willing to wait and pay the extras, then he can call himself Prince Lord King for all I care.
As for saying counterfeiters use real money to keep from getting caught...sure they do. Now, prove this guy is a fraud. You can't, can you? You hope he is. You want him to be, because it is always cool to dogpile on people/businesses having problems.
Good thing so many of the people who post here are never doubted and never had to prove themselves....right?
Sheeesh...the way some of you talk, you make me think you are french or something and not from the US or any other civilized country
Zenny
Askari
HavanaJoe
Unclejoe....you should check out some of the prior postings in this thread or look at the old descriptions before they were changed after this thread......the ebay posting said no non-US bidders/shipping (or whatever the exact wording was). In the very long and convoluted text of the description it also said overseas shipping will be DOUBLE the normal shipping (which, it costs more to ship overseas, so that was fine). So, the auction had mixed messages I would think.....don't bid and it will cost you 2ble if you do bid and win for shipping.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
so regardless of "terms" in my fine print....it was clear that I did not want to ship this item overseas....
re did I expect a neg....not really, I thought that he would not leave any feedback....
and now may I wish ALL of the board a happy and healthy New Year
Jon
<< <i>it was clear that I did not want to ship this item overseas >>
No, Jon, it really wasn't clear. It is now -- but wasn't then. As I outlined above, it would be very easy for someone to interpret your T&Cs as having formerly banned it, but incompletely revised it upon recently changing your mind. On the Internet -- and especially eBay -- it pays to be a little more tolerant than usual because it's so much easier to miscommunicate and misinterpret intent -- which is why so many people here use emoticons. (And very serious flame wars have occurred on this very forum over the lack of a single smiley face or wink to indicate teasing rather than a put-down.)
As I noted in the other thread I provided a link to, it is not that difficult to extend your circle of bidders to non-US customers. In fact, with the dollar being down, it's really a good deal for them to "buy American" and so can be more profitable to you.
A happy -- and prosperous -- New Year to you all!!
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!