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Okay, let's have a contest involving the infamous $39,100 Lincoln - with prize!

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  • << <i>You might end up singing soprano on that one, Stewart. If this had been sold at more reasonable number, say one or two thousand, I think that PCGS might have been tempted to buy it back to get it out of numismatic circulation. A previous poster graded this coin PR-66, I think that’s almost generous given the toning and the carbon spot that shows on the COINage photo.

    At $39,100, I don’t think that PCGS wants to get involved because they believe that price was an aberration. This gets back to why inexperienced collectors need to be warned that there was nothing “normal” about this auction result. >>



    Ditto on BillJones' post. I'm the "previous poster graded this coin PR-66" my caveat being that would be its maximum possible grade. I don't know how many on this forum have actually seen this coin in the flesh, but I looked at it carefully at the Auction viewing during the 2003 FUN show - actually, I looked at it twice. It is definately NOT a PR70 coin, if it were a raw coin, I'd figure it at $2-$5, but only because it has a nice cameo. The spots and toning discoloration are very unattractive.

    Has anyone else looked at the actual coin? I would be interested in their opinion as to what grade they would give this coin.

    IMO If that coin were re-submitted raw my estimate of the grade would be 50% Pr65RD DeepCam & 50% Pr66RD DeepCam meaning 1/2 the time it would be graded 65RD & 1/2 the time 66RD. As there is really no difference in value between those 2 grades for that coin, it wouldn't be worth debating that a PR66 was generous- My belief is that when graded that coin did NOT look like it does in the scan I posted (the 2003 FUN Auction scan), but that the spots and funky toning came after - I say that because no grader could possibly grade that coin "perfect" and from what I understand, more than one grader looks at the coin & then a finalizer has to approve the final grade given by the graders & I find it hard to believe that 3 graders could reach a consensus that that coin is a perfect coin.

    I would add that if 3 PCGS graders agree that as the coin looks now it is a PR70RD DCam, then PCGS has no credibility as to their ability to grade proof Lincolns for certain, and as PR70 implies perfection, I would question their credibility as to their grading skills for all coins.

    The above addresses the issue of that coin's "real" grade. A more significant issue is how anyone could value it at $39K? There are 253 1963 Lincoln cents graded Pr69 - 83 of which are Cameos and 68 are Deep Cameos. THere were over 3 million 1963 Proof sets - only a fraction of which have been graded. This coin is not rare, probably not even rare as a PR70 because all grading politics aside, how different does a PR69 look from a PR70 and if all 3 Million were graded how many would be PR70s? I would guess that about 99% of the PCGS graded PR69s look better than this PR70. Assuming that an accurately graded PR69 is worth between $125 & $250, how can anyone justify paying more for this very over-graded coin?

    I believe Andy (Mr. Eureka) has suggested the answer is EGO. Does anyone believe that having the finest Proof Lincoln Memorial Registry set is worth paying $39K+ for just this coin? I would guess that sometime in the future there's going to be a few disappointed "insert" collectors when they find out that "tulip craze" bubbles burst.

    OTH, if someone wants to throw away a lot of money for that privilege, it's their money & they can spend it however foolishly they want. image
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Does anyone believe that having the finest Proof Lincoln Memorial Registry set is worth paying $39K+ for just this coin? >>



    Obviously, the answer is yes.

    Russ, NCNE
  • $18,501 and PCGS will hate paying it.
  • 39,971.00 with juice
    Dave
    In Laurel
    MD

    Just a fist full of Dollars
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will bet my left nut that this coin winds up back at PCGS for guaranteed resubmission.

    No, Stewart, it won't. Why? Because PCGS's guarantee on the coin would only be a few thousand dollars - the true market value of the coin when it sold. A statement attributed to the owner on the set registry board went something like this: "yes, I bought the insert, so what?". HRH has repeatedly stated that PCGS won't pay for irrational auction prices realized. Why should PCGS pay extra for someone's folly???

    And since they won't pay for that folly, the coin will wander the auction circuit endlessly, looking for another pidgeon....er..... insert collector. image
  • BigEBigE Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭
    Gee, a collector who has a registry set admitting paying 30K for just the insert, I wonder what he insert alone would bring on E-Bayimage---------------------------BigE
    I'm glad I am a Tree


  • TDN,
    I think you stated it better than I did. It's just a hot potato now.
  • I know it will go for at least 41,463.00 with all the trimmings. Ha Ha Ha.
    Jim Chandler
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Now at $16,100.00 with 19 days to go.

    Russ, NCNE
  • zennyzenny Posts: 1,547 ✭✭


    << <i>The most likely final price is less than zero. How much less than zero depends on the arrangement which the consignor has regarding a buy back when the coin fails to meet the reserve. Assuming the buyback arrangement is 5% of the reserve, then when the high bid fails to meet the reserve, the coin will "sell" for -$1955. >>




    absolutely brilliant point gemtone65, this would then raise to over $41k the amount this owner would have sunk into this piece of almost 40 year old deep cameo "perfection"....

    i certainly hope, for the owner's sake, that the coin is unreserved.

    z
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is there some flamin' goin' on here? How else can a thread get to over 160 posts?
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Is there some flamin' goin' on here? How else can a thread get to over 160 posts? >>



    It is the other category - freebie. image

    Russ, NCNE
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,046 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Is there some flamin' goin' on here? How else can a thread get to over 160 posts? >>



    Oh, there's flaming going on, but it's all on the coin!
    Doug
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,747 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>ETHICS. It’s something that every dealer, who wants this hobby and this business to flourish and grow, MUST practice. Professional dealers, who didn’t know already, learned their lesson 25 years ago when crooked dealers almost ruined numismatics as a hobby. These dealers remained silent because it was improper to say bad things about their “colleagues.” They found out to their chagrin that their “colleagues” were nothing more than leaches, who were out to suck the hobby dry of all the goodwill that ethical dealers might have created, for high, ill-gotten profits.

    I have repeatedly tried to explain these concepts to Cladking, but he has his own agenda. He continues with the same old tired line that it is impossible to pay too much for a modern coin because so many of them are great rarities. After all it’s supply and demand, and any other considerations are irrelevant. >>



    I had fully intended to ignore this post because it is mainly an inaccurate and unreasonable
    attack on me personally and my skin is thick enough to shrug off statements which don't con-
    stitute slander.

    While this post may not be entirely unreasonable it should be remembered that Billjones is
    again implying that those who deal, collect, and grade high grade coins are dishonest. He is
    implying that even taking a position in them gives one an "agenda" which makes logic and
    facts from this source null and void.

    Apparently, however, the failure to read other's posts or to be fully rational on a subject
    makes one an expert.
    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • uofa1285uofa1285 Posts: 2,252 ✭✭
    44444.44
    Visit my eBay Store to see my (mostly) overpriced Rainbow Toned PCGS/NGC coins! IshopCoinShows4You
  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,742 ✭✭✭✭✭
    cladking, you are so full of sh*t you stink (even here, thousands of miles away)

    Bill Jones has never said those who deal in modern stuff are dishonest. Just because he cannot do it for moral reasons does not mean it is dishonest for those who do. My local dealer, who has done this for over 30 years, will not deal in moderns for the same reasons. He cannot do it and look at himself in the mirror. He does not talk bad of those who do, he just cannot do it. It has nothing to do with thinking someone is dishonest, just someone who cannot support the market.

    From what I can tell you are not a dealer. As such, quit trying to talk about what a true dealer thinks. Go back to fabricating statistics as to why moderns will be the end all. You should go buy this coin for $45,000+ and then display this wonderful rarity at every coin show and show why you talk the way you do.
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,256 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yowzers!

    them there are fightin' words. In this corner we have "insert name here" LOL

    image
  • WingsruleWingsrule Posts: 3,052 ✭✭✭✭
    Hammer at $41K ($47,150 with juice)
  • tsacchtsacch Posts: 2,929 ✭✭✭
    38575 including the juice.
    Family, kids, coins, sports (playing not watching), jet skiing, wakeboarding, Big Air....no one ever got hurt in the air....its the sudden stop that hurts. I hate Hurricane Sandy. I hate FEMA and i hate the blasted insurance companies.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,747 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>cladking, you are so full of sh*t you stink (even here, thousands of miles away)

    Bill Jones has never said those who deal in modern stuff are dishonest. Just because he cannot do it for moral reasons does not mean it is dishonest for those who do. My local dealer, who has done this for over 30 years, will not deal in moderns for the same reasons. He cannot do it and look at himself in the mirror. He does not talk bad of those who do, he just cannot do it. It has nothing to do with thinking someone is dishonest, just someone who cannot support the market.

    >>



    Dbldie55; My words speak for themselves as do yours and Billjones. You might want to
    go back and look at some of those words.

    I also hear you use words which equate to "live and let live", but know from the many months
    at this site that you will forget them at the first opportunity to derail a thread or bash someone
    or something.

    You might also ask yourself this: "If moderns are so unapproachable strictly for ethical reasons,
    then why didn't I get involved in them before the prices started up? Why didn't I begin a collec-
    tion years ago. Why didn't I study these coins when they were not only ignored but sold for
    pennies?"

    Now you can ignore most of these words also and point out you have collections of moderns.image
    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,841 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cladking, I have NEVER written that collecting modern coins is inappropriate or a waste of time. My only contention has been many experienced dealers and collectors are of the opinion that some of the prices that people have paid are highly speculative. Others as well as I have written that new collectors, who are not familiar with the numismatic market, should exercise caution.

    Every time anyone posts that opinion here and on other sites, you jump down their throat. It seems that though intimidation and any other means at your disposal, you are out squelch any decent that concerns the topic of possibly over priced margins.

    ANYTHING can be overpriced. I know that you disagree with that statement, but it’s true. That goes for modern coins, classic coins and everything else. In another post I cited that a 1789 Washington inauguration that had sold at auction was for $11,000 was an aberration. That statement was supported by private offerings and other auction sales of the same item in similar condition at less than half that price.

    Cladking, you could make a stronger case for you point of view if you showed some objectivity. Other sellers of high priced moderns have done that by quietly stating that the prices for some items where higher than they should have been. That lends credence to their statements when they say that something that sold for several hundred dollars “went too cheap.” If you took that tact here, Cladking, your comments would be a lot more credible.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Billjones;

    We're in general agreement then.

    I've gone far out of my way to never say that a coin is overpriced largely because
    I specialize in moderns and many people sincerely believe that anything over face
    value constitutes "overpriced". Also because it seems unfair to the owners of coins
    which were bought at a legitimate auction to contend that the hammer price and
    the underbids were all just "wrong". It's unfair to the owner of such a coin to make
    statements which could affect the sale price.

    Yes, obviously I'm in a small minority on this point and will simply have to learn to live
    with it.

    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • asnovellasnovell Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    I'll guess 24700.00
    Andy
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,841 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Billjones;

    We're in general agreement then.

    I've gone far out of my way to never say that a coin is overpriced largely because
    I specialize in moderns and many people sincerely believe that anything over face
    value constitutes "overpriced". Also because it seems unfair to the owners of coins
    which were bought at a legitimate auction to contend that the hammer price and
    the underbids were all just "wrong". It's unfair to the owner of such a coin to make
    statements which could affect the sale price.

    Yes, obviously I'm in a small minority on this point and will simply have to learn to live
    with it. >>



    Ok fair enough.

    But if I screw up on the purchase of a coin, I'd like to know about it so that I will avoid doing that again. And I'd certainly like to know about it BEFORE I placed a heafty bid. That's what getting the opinion of a professional is all about.

    As it now looks, the price as already reached a level that for THIS COIN appears to be ... well more than I can fatham ($17,000 + with the BP). It seems that people really are buying the insert and not the coin. If I owned on the PR-69 or 68 pieces I'd chuckle, because chances are their coin is better than this one (or at least I would certainly hope that it is better.)

    As I said earlier, the black spot in the field takes it out of PR-70 territory and the toning hurts its case further. To me PR-70, R&B is an oxymoron. A copper coin cannot lose its original mint color and still be called MS or PR 70. To me 70 is PERFECT in every respect. That what makes it a rare grade, that does not exist for the vast, vast majority of numismatic items.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Well here goes.....My 2 cents worth...

    I'll say 34.650 plus the juice.... Let's say $39,850 total
  • CaseyCasey Posts: 1,502 ✭✭
    $25,875
  • pontiacinfpontiacinf Posts: 8,915 ✭✭
    ill say it doesnt hit its previous high
    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • MSD61MSD61 Posts: 3,382
    $62,500
  • 35,555.00
    Michael
  • bgmanbgman Posts: 473 ✭✭
    42,359
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭


    Saturday 2:54 P.M. EST the bid is at $23,000 with the juice
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Saturday 2:54 P.M. EST the bid is at $23,000 with the juice

    For the record, I am currently NOT the high bidder.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For the record, I am currently NOT the high bidder.

    me neither. my max of $3.73 was exceeded veeerrrry early in the auction image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Saturday 2:54 P.M. EST the bid is at $23,000 with the juice >>



    image

    That is so amazing, even Marty is shaking his head. image

    Russ, NCNE
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm half tempted to outbid Stewart - just so I can have the pleasure of trying to return it to Heritage.

    Think they'd take an internet bid from "PF70myarse"?
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 17,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This consignor's 59 Lincoln is already around $17k and many other coins are higher than I expected WITH NEARLY 3 WEEKS TO GO!! Not to mention the 63 Lincoln is already $23k. Wouldn't it be funny if this guy gets a greater % return on his collection INCLUDING THE 1963 CENT, overall than nearly any "tradtional" investment vehicle over the past 12 months. LORD HAVE MERCY!!

    Wondercoin image
    image
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • $45,678
    Hmmmmm....
  • $47,642
    J.C.
    *******************************************************************************

    imageimageSee ya on the other side, Dudes. image
  • spoonspoon Posts: 2,798 ✭✭✭
    $5 and a Snickers bar.
  • WondoWondo Posts: 2,916 ✭✭✭
    $54k hammer
    Wondo

  • $44,574image
    I'm trying to become the person my dog thinks I am
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,046 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> Saturday 2:54 P.M. EST the bid is at $23,000 with the juice >>



    Well, some people have lost the contest already!

    I now predict that this thread will hit 500 posts before the auction ends.
    Doug
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭

    Trade Dollar Nut - Please don't outbid me as we can split the lot. I'll give you the coin and I'll take the insert ?image

    stewart
  • 41,000 is my guess



  • My guess is $38,555.00, hope I win the dog.
    PCGS certified Modern Commemoratives and American Eagle Gold Bullion, Type set coins, CC mintmark coins, Confederate currency, Shield Nickels XF and better,HOF sports cards graded/ungraded
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please don't outbid me as we can split the lot. I'll give you the coin and I'll take the insert ?

    image

    What makes you think I can't resubmit it raw and get another PF70 insert. Then I have the coin and your insert is Pop2! bwahahahahahaha
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Now at $26,450.00 with 16 days to go.

    Russ, NCNE
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have nothing intelligent to add (as usual), just wanted to be the 200th post. Can we go for 300?
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Just passed me up. Oh well.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • RGLRGL Posts: 3,784
    Wow ... imagine how many posts there would be if the prize was a coin other than some crappy Kennedy! image

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