The Infamous 1963 DCAM
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
It seems to me that the contest post has gotten a bit off track and acrimonious. Here's another topic for discussion on this coin. The following is the lot description from the Heritage sale:
From a substantial proof mintage in excess of three million pieces, this specimen is the first and only example to achieve the highest possible grade assessment. Thick mint frost covers the devices and provides a strong contrast against the depth of mirrored reflectivity in the fields, and, of course, there are no handling marks or other flaws of any significance to be found. Deep cherry-red color characterizes this splendid coin--the finest certified by either of the major services
Now, in light of previous threads where many asserted that Heritage should have no return priviledge in the Signature Sales, I have to ask: Has the coin been recently dipped to remove the flaws so easily seen in the previously published pictures? If not, is this a fair auction description of the coin by Heritage?
I'd have to strongly assert that absent the dip it is not. Heritage is a professional numismatics firm of great repute. Don't they have a duty, as an expert, to point out any drawbacks to a coin they are auctioning - or at the very least provide a fair and balanced assessment of the coin? Is it really fair that the potential exists for an unknowledgable investor to purchase this coin based on Heritage's glowing description and then not be able to return the coin?
From a substantial proof mintage in excess of three million pieces, this specimen is the first and only example to achieve the highest possible grade assessment. Thick mint frost covers the devices and provides a strong contrast against the depth of mirrored reflectivity in the fields, and, of course, there are no handling marks or other flaws of any significance to be found. Deep cherry-red color characterizes this splendid coin--the finest certified by either of the major services
Now, in light of previous threads where many asserted that Heritage should have no return priviledge in the Signature Sales, I have to ask: Has the coin been recently dipped to remove the flaws so easily seen in the previously published pictures? If not, is this a fair auction description of the coin by Heritage?
I'd have to strongly assert that absent the dip it is not. Heritage is a professional numismatics firm of great repute. Don't they have a duty, as an expert, to point out any drawbacks to a coin they are auctioning - or at the very least provide a fair and balanced assessment of the coin? Is it really fair that the potential exists for an unknowledgable investor to purchase this coin based on Heritage's glowing description and then not be able to return the coin?
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Comments
At any rate if it has been dipped to fix it, I would be reluctant to get involved given its history. Any dipped coin carries a risk, but copper is especially bad in that regard. And if looks the same now as it did for the COINage picture, reasonable people could question the grade …
Jeremy
<< <i>Don't they have a duty, as an expert, to point out any drawbacks to a coin they are auctioning - or at the very least provide a fair and balanced assessment of the coin? >>
I believe that when the problems with a coin are not clearly visible in the image provided, yes they do have a very real obligation to note them in the description. The flaws were easily discernible the first time the piece was sold. This time that is not the case.
Russ, NCNE
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Not to mention the coin is beginning to look like a "bargain" - heck a PR69DCAM 1959 Lincoln is already up to close to $17,000 with three weeks to go!!!!
Wondercoin
Its the insert that is for sale !!!! I believe this has already been discussed.
Who gives a ratza$$ about a 1963 penny?
I am bidding on the insert and please stop bad mouthing the coin or when I win it I am going to stick the coin up your a$$ Bruce !!!
Stewart
STEWARTBLAY - Is that any way to talk to a potential underbidder?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Let's just leave it at this: If I got a coin looking like that coin looked with that glowing description and someone tried to charge me 5% to take it back.............
Wouldn't that constitute a dip.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>I am going to stick the coin up your a$$ Bruce !!!
Wouldn't that constitute a dip. >>
More likely altered surfaces.
Russ, NCNE
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I am sure the coin would be glowing after it had a dip of the type that D Heath described.
Stewart
<< <i>I am going to stick the coin up your a$$ Bruce !!!
Wouldn't that constitute a dip. >>
And it might lose the red designation.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>And it might lose the red designation. >>
it would become rdbn, red-brown?
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I'mtaking my wife to dinner and hope the 1963 PR70 DCAM dissappears.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
al h.
I honestly do not believe that if you took a bunch of 69 and 70 DCAMs and put 'em on a table that anyone could consistently pick out the 70s. I'm willing to be proved wrong, but if you accept my conjecture then you can see why paying big bucks for a 70 makes no damn sense.
If, on the other hand, you do believe that the services are 100% consistent and accurate on the high end grades, then all by means have at it.
This coin flunks that test plain and simple. The emperor does have no clothes. The people who are bidding for the coin, and not perhaps to put a fig leaf on the market for it, are buying a paper insert that reads in part, "PCGS PR-70 DCAM." They are not buying a perfect coin by any means. They are buying a POP 1 coin that will get them points on a registry.
What happens if PCGS grades another MS-70 DCAM? If it's the real thing that game might be over for this one.
One is reminded of a situation years ago when some EAC people began to examine some finest known large cent varieties from the old condition census. They found that some of the coins did not live up to their reputations, and they got downgraded. Maybe the same will happen in the modern market, but if that happens, what will PCGS do about it via their grading gurantee?
The tougher grade is to distinguish between 68 and 69. What splits those hairs? It's less than perfect, but were is the dividing line?
<< <i>"TDN - With all due respect, who gives a ratzass? It's just a friggin' 1963 Lincoln penny. "
Not to mention the coin is beginning to look like a "bargain" - heck a PR69DCAM 1959 Lincoln is already up to close to $17,000 with three weeks to go!!!!
Wondercoin >>
What a MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 1913 Liberty Nickel recently traded for over 3 Million. That is 3 Million for stupid dealers who HYPE everything they sell. This coin must be worth a fortune based on that sale alone. This coin has nothing to do with a 1959 just like a roosevelt dime has nothing to do with a half dollar (but in one thread you will claim it does, but another you claim it does not). No wonder lawyers are thought of as being lower than dirt. So many are they bring the whole profession down.
<< <i>What a MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 1913 Liberty Nickel recently traded for over 3 Million. That is 3 Million for stupid dealers who HYPE everything they sell. This coin must be worth a fortune based on that sale alone. This coin has nothing to do with a 1959 just like a roosevelt dime has nothing to do with a half dollar (but in one thread you will claim it does, but another you claim it does not). No wonder lawyers are thought of as being lower than dirt. So many are they bring the whole profession down.
>>
POW! RIGHT IN THE FRANKIES!
OUCH!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
michael
DAH!
Wondercoin
Heritage is a professional numismatics firm of great repute. Don't they have a duty, as an expert, to point out any drawbacks to a coin they are auctioning - or at the very least provide a fair and balanced assessment of the coin? Is it really fair that the potential exists for an unknowledgable investor to purchase this coin based on Heritage's glowing description and then not be able to return the coin?
TDN,
Heaven forbid that I bring up the thread in which I discussed returning a grossly overgraded 29-S NGC MS-67RD Lincoln as I took quite a thrashing on these boards. Heritage is aware of the fine line between obligation to consignor as well as buyer, and I think they are trying their best to work within those constraints. I hope they don't mind my elaboration, but Heritage contacted me personally after the beating I took on the boards after returning the coin. I will say that they set matters straight and were very gracious in their handling of the situation. Again, it is my contention that there should be some consideration for sight unseen bidders. If the auction houses want the benefit of expanded numbers of bidders by using the internet, then they will need to deal with the disadvantages of that mode as well.
Jack
Who said, its the insert that counts not the coin ?
Dbldie 55 - Were you proposing to Wondercoin or are you already married ?
How come Heritage didn't use the same image as they did in last years sale of this numismatic treasure ?
Stewart
<< <i>I'd have to strongly assert that absent the dip it is not. Heritage is a professional numismatics firm of great repute. Don't they have a duty, as an expert, to point out any drawbacks to a coin they are auctioning >>
Not really, they are representing the consigner and their responsibility is to him and their job is to get the best price possible for his coin.
<< <i><< And it might lose the red designation. >>
it would become rdbn, red-brown? >>
Considering the location of the dip, I think we can safely say the coin would be Brown.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am going to stick the coin up your a$$ Bruce !!!
Wouldn't that constitute a dip. >>
And it might lose the red designation. >>
I'll have to resubmit that coin to icg now.
Stu
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am going to stick the coin up your a$$ Bruce !!!
Wouldn't that constitute a dip. >>
And it might lose the red designation. >>
I'll have to resubmit that coin to icg now.
Stu >>
Excuse the pun...but that would mean I would have to "CRACK" out the coin.
Stu