<<<While I agree that it is possible for an ICG coin to be properly graded, and perhaps it was here, the almighty $$$ rules around here.
Rick - Good morning! Haven't chatted in a while. Now, what are you babbling about?
------------------------- Andy Lustig Franklin Mint Collector>>>
Good morning, Andy. What I am babbling about is that I was told by HRH himself that he had no reason to head my advice because "there's no money in it." This comment flies in the face of the purpose of numismatics, which is not to maximize profit, contrary to popular belief. As well, to state that PCGS has no vested interest is shortsighted at best. HRH now refuses to SEM-EDX test coins for me because my client made a claim on a misattribution. Actually, he said, if I want him to test coins, I must crack them out first, and that, if PCGS doesn't crack them out, their guarantee doesn't apply. Pretty clear that it's all about $$$, IMHO.
<< <i>no matter the holder, it's still the same coin, right? >>
Absolutely, but not all people buy the coin, right? Or did the market for IHC's in 65 just jump about 400% in an extremely short period of time? Surely you dont believe that the crackout game doesnt exist?
<< <i> How many people would have seen the IHC in a Icg holder? >>
This statement sums up many of the unfortunate posts I read here. How many people would have seen the IHC in an ICG holder? Probably just about anyone who is looking for a NICE COIN.
<< <i>That is a nice coin and should be enjoyed by a wider audience than what Icg can provide. >>
How? By being in a PCGS registry set?
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
Good morning, Andy. What I am babbling about is that I was told by HRH himself that he had no reason to head my advice because "there's no money in it." This comment flies in the face of the purpose of numismatics, which is not to maximize profit, contrary to popular belief. As well, to state that PCGS has no vested interest is shortsighted at best. HRH now refuses to SEM-EDX test coins for me because my client made a claim on a misattribution. Actually, he said, if I want him to test coins, I must crack them out first, and that, if PCGS doesn't crack them out, their guarantee doesn't apply. Pretty clear that it's all about $$$, IMHO.
Rick - OK, but what does that have to do with ICG grading a coin accurately?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Have you read the parts of the thread where Shylock mentions an ICG slabbed coin ending up in a PCGS slab and people talking about motives and money?
Rick - Yes. I just don't see a problem here. And sorry for the "babbling" comment. Nothing personal. There are lots of babblers in this thread and I shouldn't have singled you out.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Seth- How did you guess? I actually gave the coin to my kids to play catch with before sending it in to PCGS. So I suppose you could say it was played with.
David, please don't take it the wrong way, I used the word played with a bit too broadly. Some people can take it like you did....or others can imply that a "Dr." had something to do with the coin. Was there a degree of "conservation" involved?
A coin is a coin is a coin......................No matter who's holder it is in or what might be printed on the label. Congrats on the upgrade. That is what this hobby is all about. IMO
I agree with Mr Eureka. I don't see the big deal about the coin crossing over. Any one of us would love to buy an ICG coin and have it cross over with a big jump in value. As far as the link changing, I don't see why DHRC wouldn't want people to look at the coin. That doesn't make sense.
Andy, it is really simple....GREED. People are utterly fascinated that a $2000 coin that everyone had the opportunity to buy can turn into a $6000 coin overnight. Everyone wants to hear the DETAILS, hence this will be a 100+ post thread.
Also, keep in mind, 99% of the members of this board do not have an "eye". You do, therefore you have probably have been exposed to circumstances like this dozens if not hundreds of times(you can tell me by PM). For you, it is no big deal, for others its WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW how did you do that?
I don't think it's greed or that a coin was simply crossed from ICG into PCGS. I was the perception that the crossover was accomplished by DHRC. That raises the question of conflict of interest which is why Shylock titled the thread the way he did. Simple as that, folks.
However, Mr. Schweitz has pointed out that he crossed the coin. That takes away the conflict of interest theory.
The other side issues that have been raised on this thread are just that; side issues.
MrEureka.....What I mean by that statement is that there are hundreds (thousands??)of undergraded certified coins out there just waiting to be upgraded. It takes is a good eye, knowledge and a the guts to take the risk of cracking a coin out of it's holder and resubmitting it. If someone has the skill to do this, then more power to them. I respect anyone who has the skill(eye) to pull this off. After all its not the coins fault that the third party graders screwed up on the grade.
The lesson I learned from this is that the stigma of an "off brand" holder, in this case ICG, is so great that not only does it deter bidders at auction, but at least one dealer did not want that taint to follow the coin even after it had been cracked out and graded by PCGS.
I do not blame DHRC. Anyone who really wants an 1869 ms red in a PCGS can find another one. Why take the chance that potential buyers will shy away because a prior owner sent it to ICG. After all don't people send their coins there instead of PCGS because the coin has some "problem" that would keep it out of a PCGS holder. I can see a buyer worrying that it might have been bagged by PCGS in the past and this time it slipped by the graders. This is copper after all.
If you don't buy that explanation, just consider this. Every day you can find discussions on this board about coins in "off brand" holders being offered at auction on ebay or even at major auctions, and in each case you will find more than one board member admonishing that "if the coin really made the grade it would not be in that holder." Frankly, I am of the same mind, rightly or wrongly--I do not "waste my time" considering "off brand" coins.
If you are David Schweitz that can mean an opportunity to rip a gem coin every now and then right under the noses of knoweldgeable dealers and collectors. If you are a mere hobbyist, you are just as likely to get burned trying than you are to succeed.
I think the original concern was that DHRC had changed the address for "questionable" purposes, ie: to prevent anyone from easily following Shylocks original comparison thread.
Perhaps DHRC has figured out a way to prevent dishonest folks from linking to a coin that's not theirs?? Happens all the time on ebay, as we've seen posted here.
It would seem easy to have a random address generater that frequently changes the URL/address. IT guys - is that hard to do??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>I don't think it's greed or that a coin was simply crossed from ICG into PCGS. I was the perception that the crossover was accomplished by DHRC. That raises the question of conflict of interest which is why Shylock titled the thread the way he did. Simple as that, folks.
However, Mr. Schweitz has pointed out that he crossed the coin. That takes away the conflict of interest theory.
The other side issues that have been raised on this thread are just that; side issues. >>
Simple is as simple does, man can you leap to a conclusion without even knowing Shylock, I gather you hang out on the registry too. Get real how can you claim to know what was in his mind. Do you even know him?
It would seem easy to have a random address generater that frequently changes the URL/address. IT guys - is that hard to do??
Easy to do, but no one would do that except for the most security-concious sites. Why? For one, it would destroy the concept of the cache. Second, retailers want to make their merchandise *easier* to access.
Andy, I think the big deal re another initially holdered coin crossing into a PCGS slab at the same grade is that unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
No, I don't know Shylock, nor do I claim to be able to read his mind. I'm really sorry if after reading my post it sounded like I could read his mind. I don't think it's fair to imply that I can read someone's mind when I really can't. Sorry
No, and I don't "hang out on the registry too". I guess I shouldn't pretend to hang out on the registry, nor should I pretend to know anyone that "hangs out on the registry".
Seth- The coin was cracked out of the ICG holder, put in a flip and sent to PCGS. No "doctoring" or anything else was done to the coin. Why is it that some on this board have to assume the worst in others? I find it insulting that you would even ask that question. I only responded to this thread to clear up the misinformation that DHRC submitted this coin when in fact they did not. I never intended to start any controversy and apoligize if I offended Paul for anything I said. Keep up the good work and you will chase anyone away from these forums that could offer useful information. Or is it that you already know everything and have nothing to learn.
OK. An ICG coin in an auction was identified as nice, bought for a price that ICG coins often demand, cracked out by the original high bidder and submitted for grading at PCGS. The coin was given a grade by a service whose slabs demand a higher price to the coin community and became more valuable in the marketplace. The successful operation ( based on increased market value) was discussed on this forum and the usual cross talk occurred. The main lesson for the uninitiated is that some coins in lesser regarded holders may be well or even undergraded. This is not the rule but occurs at times. Many of the participants on this forum are excited by the accomplishment of making $6000 or so on such a manouver. The ability to do this is a compelling force for many to buy and sell coins. As for the coin that is now in a new holder: same coin, new clothes. As for the heavy participation on this forum of people who have a business interest in the purchase and sale of coins, it is an obvious and inexpensive marketing tool. Do these participants also contribute to the interest and value of the forum to the rest of the forum members? Sure, often. Is this thread anti-PCGS. This is simply, no!! It encourages purchase and crackout of coins in lesser regarded holder. This is good for PCGS business. Is this a forum devoted to erudite numismatic discussions? Sometimes, but not very often. Does this make the forum less valuable? To whom? This is a user driven forum; you get what you put in or listen to. Is there a value to criticizing the perceived quality of posts by others who participate in this chat room? Must be, since it is so common. Tabloids sell pretty well despite the low news content. Thanks for the entertainment. It is great for the insomniacs
<<<Adrian- Why are you repeating a statement that was proven to be erroneous?>>> You mean the $2,000 ICG holder & the $8K PCGS holder are not the same coin? Well please forgive me for being a lying sumbitch.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I have no problem with the ICG to PCGS switch....good job Dave. The problem and point to me is the switching of links. That same old "burn the books" attitude. That is why this thread has the name it does I'd guess. K
A 1868 65R is on alot of want lists. I suspect that if this coin were nice and priced fairly, it wouldn't still be on the site after a month (but that is OT, I guess).
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
Comments
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Rick - Good morning! Haven't chatted in a while. Now, what are you babbling about?
-------------------------
Andy Lustig
Franklin Mint Collector>>>
Good morning, Andy. What I am babbling about is that I was told by HRH himself that he had no reason to head my advice because "there's no money in it." This comment flies in the face of the purpose of numismatics, which is not to maximize profit, contrary to popular belief. As well, to state that PCGS has no vested interest is shortsighted at best. HRH now refuses to SEM-EDX test coins for me because my client made a claim on a misattribution. Actually, he said, if I want him to test coins, I must crack them out first, and that, if PCGS doesn't crack them out, their guarantee doesn't apply. Pretty clear that it's all about $$$, IMHO.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
<< <i>no matter the holder, it's still the same coin, right? >>
Absolutely, but not all people buy the coin, right? Or did the market for IHC's in 65 just jump about 400% in an extremely short period of time? Surely you dont believe that the crackout game doesnt exist?
09/07/2006
<< <i> How many people would have seen the IHC in a Icg holder? >>
This statement sums up many of the unfortunate posts I read here. How many people would have seen the IHC in an ICG holder? Probably just about anyone who is looking for a NICE COIN.
<< <i>That is a nice coin and should be enjoyed by a wider audience than what Icg can provide. >>
How? By being in a PCGS registry set?
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Rick - OK, but what does that have to do with ICG grading a coin accurately?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
The "new address" for the coin on the DHRC website is now invalid like the "original address." Maybe it is just a quirk in their software.
Paul keep up your great detective posts. It helps give us a perspective on the inner workings of the business.
Rick - Yes. I just don't see a problem here. And sorry for the "babbling" comment. Nothing personal. There are lots of babblers in this thread and I shouldn't have singled you out.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Seth
<< <i>The "new address" for the coin on the DHRC website is now invalid like the "original address." >>
Fascinating.
Here's the coin at address #3.
Russ, NCNE
David, please don't take it the wrong way, I used the word played with a bit too broadly. Some people can take it like you did....or others can imply that a "Dr." had something to do with the coin. Was there a degree of "conservation" involved?
Glad your kids had fun.
Seth
I'm sure I'm just missing the obvious, and it's driving me nuts. Thank you.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
fivecents - I was with you 100% until that last comment. Now I'm just horrified and heading to the pub. G'nite!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
As far as the link changing, I don't see why DHRC wouldn't want people to look at the coin. That doesn't make sense.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Also, keep in mind, 99% of the members of this board do not have an "eye". You do, therefore you have probably have been exposed to circumstances like this dozens if not hundreds of times(you can tell me by PM
Seth
I don't think it's greed or that a coin was simply crossed from ICG into PCGS. I was the perception that the crossover was accomplished by DHRC. That raises the question of conflict of interest which is why Shylock titled the thread the way he did. Simple as that, folks.
However, Mr. Schweitz has pointed out that he crossed the coin. That takes away the conflict of interest theory.
The other side issues that have been raised on this thread are just that; side issues.
<< <i>That is what this hobby is all about. >>
MrEureka.....What I mean by that statement is that there are hundreds (thousands??)of undergraded certified coins out there just waiting to be upgraded. It takes is a good eye, knowledge and a the guts to take the risk of cracking a coin out of it's holder and resubmitting it. If someone has the skill to do this, then more power to them. I respect anyone who has the skill(eye) to pull this off. After all its not the coins fault that the third party graders screwed up on the grade.
I do not blame DHRC. Anyone who really wants an 1869 ms red in a PCGS can find another one. Why take the chance that potential buyers will shy away because a prior owner sent it to ICG. After all don't people send their coins there instead of PCGS because the coin has some "problem" that would keep it out of a PCGS holder. I can see a buyer worrying that it might have been bagged by PCGS in the past and this time it slipped by the graders. This is copper after all.
If you don't buy that explanation, just consider this. Every day you can find discussions on this board about coins in "off brand" holders being offered at auction on ebay or even at major auctions, and in each case you will find more than one board member admonishing that "if the coin really made the grade it would not be in that holder." Frankly, I am of the same mind, rightly or wrongly--I do not "waste my time" considering "off brand" coins.
If you are David Schweitz that can mean an opportunity to rip a gem coin every now and then right under the noses of knoweldgeable dealers and collectors. If you are a mere hobbyist, you are just as likely to get burned trying than you are to succeed.
CG
Perhaps DHRC has figured out a way to prevent dishonest folks from linking to a coin that's not theirs?? Happens all the time on ebay, as we've seen posted here.
It would seem easy to have a random address generater that frequently changes the URL/address. IT guys - is that hard to do??
You bring up an excellent and feasible possibility. It would not be difficult for a good developer to program a shopping cart to do that.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I don't think it's greed or that a coin was simply crossed from ICG into PCGS. I was the perception that the crossover was accomplished by DHRC. That raises the question of conflict of interest which is why Shylock titled the thread the way he did. Simple as that, folks.
However, Mr. Schweitz has pointed out that he crossed the coin. That takes away the conflict of interest theory.
The other side issues that have been raised on this thread are just that; side issues. >>
Simple is as simple does, man can you leap to a conclusion without even knowing Shylock, I gather you hang out on the registry too. Get real how can you claim to know what was in his mind. Do you even know him?
Easy to do, but no one would do that except for the most security-concious sites. Why? For one, it would destroy the concept of the cache. Second, retailers want to make their merchandise *easier* to access.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
IrishMike,
No, I don't know Shylock, nor do I claim to be able to read his mind. I'm really sorry if after reading my post it sounded like I could read his mind. I don't think it's fair to imply that I can read someone's mind when I really can't. Sorry
No, and I don't "hang out on the registry too". I guess I shouldn't pretend to hang out on the registry, nor should I pretend to know anyone that "hangs out on the registry".
<< <i>This thread has attracted the "Touchey" sort AYE? Anyone in need of valium?... >>
Don't get me started again!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Lucy...That's my goal in life!...
As for the coin that is now in a new holder: same coin, new clothes.
As for the heavy participation on this forum of people who have a business interest in the purchase and sale of coins, it is an obvious and inexpensive marketing tool. Do these participants also contribute to the interest and value of the forum to the rest of the forum members? Sure, often.
Is this thread anti-PCGS. This is simply, no!! It encourages purchase and crackout of coins in lesser regarded holder. This is good for PCGS business.
Is this a forum devoted to erudite numismatic discussions? Sometimes, but not very often. Does this make the forum less valuable? To whom? This is a user driven forum; you get what you put in or listen to.
Is there a value to criticizing the perceived quality of posts by others who participate in this chat room? Must be, since it is so common. Tabloids sell pretty well despite the low news content.
Thanks for the entertainment. It is great for the insomniacs
You mean the $2,000 ICG holder & the $8K PCGS holder are not the same coin?
Well please forgive me for being a lying sumbitch.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set