Are you surprised that NGC-the 2nd ranked grading service-would OVERGRADE something???? These people belong below ANACS, ICG, and SEGS. They really do suck, in spite of their undeserved "Top tier" status. Wake up, collectors-the "dealer network" shouldn't determine credibilty with a sorry assed grading service like this.
After reading each comment in this thread, I have to agree with Wondercoin.
There are a lot of coins in the Signature sale I would have like to bid on; but I did not wish to risk them being dog coins for the grade and had not contracted with anyone to review the coins for me. As many of us know....a good place to unload low quality for the slab grade coins is in a Heritage, Superior or B&M auction. We've all seen coins we wouldn't pay AU55 money for in NGC MS63 slabs....and yes even some in PCGS slabs. One man's horrendous scratch is another man's slight blemish. One man's planchet flaw is another man's slightly weak strike.
I've bought a lot of coins in the Heritage and B&M auctions sight unseen. I've been pleastantly surprised many times. I've been satisfied most of the time; and I've been disappointed a few times.
If I had the right to return every coin that I disagreed on the slab's grade; I would be willing to pay more for the coins and would do a lot more bidding. However, the terms of the sale are clear and a good portion of the time; I don't wish to risk the coin being a dog.
It's just part of the territory that comes with the modern wonders of third-party grading combined with internet, sight-unseen bidding.
I know it's disappointing when it happens and it certainly has made me angry for a while when it happened to me. But, you live and learn. Good luck.
Barberlover may have hit the nail on the head. Why does a firm like Heritage (with extensive resources), take such horrible photos of their coins!!. In contrast, look at Russ (compucheap) and Anaconda on Ebay. Their photos are magnificant, and I don't think they have the millions to back them like Heritage Capital. They also sell alot of coins, so I don't think Heritage can use the excuse that they simply have too many photos to photograph. I have seen numerous times , dealers like JBsteven, Russ, Anaconda, and MichaelDixon, offer 30-50 coins on Ebay at any given time with superb photos, granted Heritage has hundreds of lots in one of their auctions, but nobody is going to convince me that their photos are acceptable based on their resources. Their photos are crap.
The reason I do not return coins from Signature auctions is that I have feelings for the consignor, basically his coin has been off the market for perhaps months, then it sells and gets returned-------two more months with his coins sitting at Heritage when the underbidder would have been happy with it for a pittance less------------------------BigE
Heritage wants more internet business. A return policy will give those bidding at home more comfort in bidding, like someone has already pointed out. Heritage better be careful to not turn an auction into an approval service. It could get out of hand.
A large part of all these auctions are dealer consignments. Some of these consignors have taken cash advances on these lots. So, it would royally suck if as a cosignor you got these coins back and found out you were in a position of having to payoff the advance, but still owning the coin you were hoping to be rid of.
And yes ALL the auction houses need to improve their descriptions. If you went to lot viewing, read the descriptions, then looked at the coins you would be very disappointed. It's amazing how much a problem is understated.
Personally I feel 5% in a cheap way to get out of a mistake.
On the subject of images, I think some of the detractors fail to appreciate the difficulties involved in imaging. To compare an auction house's herculean task of imaging all those lots to the relatively few number of coins that Russ (or whomever) images is unfair. Russ can take his time imagine each coin. Heritage cannot.
One would think that an auction house would want to get the best pictures possible. Better pictures = better bids, less surprises, less returns. It's in their own best interest, as well as that of the consignor.
I agree with many of the comments that their pictures are poor. Seems that the quality went downhill about 2 years ago. I recall significantly better pictures prior to that.
I applaud Heritage for changing it's policy and now allowing returns for a small fee. Teletrade was the first major auction firm to do this, and still do, but I believe they charge 10% for returns.
These days, an ever increasing proportion of auction sales is going to internet bidders who do not have the time and resources to view the coin in person. Providing them with the option to return a slabbed item makes bidding much less risky for them. The notion that a few may abuse the priviledge by seeking a crossover is, it seems to me, stretching a little to support the status quo in the interest of some sellers. A short window to act on returns is all that is needed to eliminate 99% of this already very small level of activity related to returns. Moreover, if Heritage simply shared the return fee with the seller, this would further satisfy the concerns of some sellers about this new policy.
A major part of the overall problem is that the auction houses already bend over backwards not to upset consignors. As such, you rarely see negative comments about a coin in the write-up. This practice is in need of change, and more balanced descriptions would be helpful.
Calling the auction house for assistance with a coin, or even having a dealer look for you, is no substitute for viewing the coin yourself. A major aspect of internet auctions is to eliminate the need to see the coin in person. Many of the same people criticizing the return policy will also tell you never to buy a coin off E-bay from someone who does not have a return privilege. Isn't this position inconsistent? Who as a buyer would not want a return privilege?
The problem of the Heritiage pictures is another issue altogether. Auction houses have been showing color pictures in catalogues for many years, some better than others. How many of you have been disapointed after receiving such coins, and wished you had a return privilege? In the case of Heritage, many of its own officials acknowledge the phtotography problem, but just roll their eyes when I ask why it can't be fixed. This is the real riddle. Who is their photographer -- Steve Ivy's son?
This thread should be about buying PCGS certified copper.
One can get a double guarantee buying from the Evil Empire(Heritage).
IMO Heritage has no right to charge Jack the knife a restocking fee because they knew the coin was grossly overgraded,as well as the consignor knew the coin was grossly overgraded.Do you think Heritage has a staff of incompetants or Numismatic morons on their staff?They knew there was no guarantee from NGC to return the coin. And Jack the Knife was buying the coin to cross it into a PCGS ms 66 holder.The problem was this particular coin would cross at possibly a 64 r/b or a body bag.And yes Wondercoin was correct in that I would pay $25,000 if the coin was truly a PCGS ms 67 red.And Dave Schweiz would probably pay $35,000.
And the reason Heritage will charge a restocking fee is because they gave the consignor an advance on this coin and it will be appearing in the next Heritage Signature sale or a bullit sale or whatever.The bottom line is Heritage should never take coins like this for auction that are SOOOOOOO overgraded.
I have to concur with being able to return a "swilly" coin. If you're going to be actively involved in helping to make marginal coins in higher holders, then you have take some of the responsibility. Certainly, Heritage owns any number of the coins they auction. And low end dogs (or misgrades) cannot hardly sell sight seen. I'm sure they make plenty on their submitted upgrades so accepting an occasional hit should be meaningless.
I think Heritage did the right thing in taking it back. Teletrade has a 3% fee for returns and that is quite high enough. 5% is a little stiff. The 8% return fee on the Internet Only sales (is it still that high?) was enough to keep me from bidding on those. I too was surprised that Heritage allows any returns on any slabbed coins. But I think a total dog should always be an exception if you did not view the coin beforehand.
Man - What a slippery slope when you ask an auction company, however big they are, to make judgment on the grades PCGS and NGC are dishing out as the third party grading professionals on slabs. If one expects Heritage to determine whether a coin is "auction worthy", I can't wait until they start breaking up great classic collections and saying "20% of this landmark set is overgraded, so we can't auction those". Yeah - right
Again, I believe Heritage is simply taking its fabulous customer service to collectors a bit too far here when they permit returns in a non-approval Signature Sale. IMHO, Heritage should "just say no" and let the speculators (again not directed at JTK, but generally speaking) who failed to hit the jackpot and score a big upgrade on a possible cross coin go where they should - to the grading company to address an issue concerning the slabbing of a coin. Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
P.S. I believe Heritage's stated policy is absolutely NO RETURNS IN THE SIGNATURE SALE. There is always a delicate balance between protecting consignors and addressing the legitimate concerns of bidders.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
For those of you that want a return privelege on your purchases, buy from a trusted dealer, on Ebay, or directly from another collector. An auction has not been and should not be an approval service. Giving Internet bidders a return privelege gives them a clearcut advantage. They do not have to shell out for the airfare, hotel, and meals that the guys who care enough to attend the auctions have to spend to play that game. As Mitch says, if you cannot make it to the auction, have someone you trust look at the coins for you in the auction. Sure, seeing the coins yourself is always the best way to go. But for those of you that are too busy to attend in person, compromises will have to be made. As for the assertion that Heritage is now allowing returns for any reason on any certified lot for a 5% fee, my prediction is that they will be making a statement denying that. I could not find it in their auction terms and would like to know where the author of this thread found it. If true, I for one will never consign to another of their sales, and I will not be alone in doing so.
Signature Sales: The auction is not on approval. No certified material may be returned because of possible differences of opinion with respect to the grade offered by any third-party organization, dealer, or service. There are absolutely no exceptions to this policy. Under extremely limited circumstances, (e.g. gross cataloging error) a purchaser, who did not bid from the floor, may request Auctioneer to void a sale. Such request for evaluation must be made in writing detailing the alleged gross error, and submission of the lot to the Auctioneer must be preapproved by the Auctioneer. A Bidder must notify Jack Hinton, (ext. 312) in writing of the Bidder's request and such notice must be mailed within three (3) days of the mail Bidder's receipt of the lot. Any lot that is to be evaluated must be received in our offices within 30 days from the date of auction. Grading or method of manufacture do not qualify for this evaluation process nor do such complaints constitute a basis to challenge the authenticity of a lot. AFTER THAT 30-DAY PERIOD, NO LOTS MAY BE RETURNED FOR REASONS OTHER THAN AUTHENTICITY. Lots returned must be housed intact in the original holder. No lots purchased by floor Bidders may be returned (including those Bidders acting as agents for others). Late remittance for purchases may be considered just cause to revoke all return privileges.
"The auction is not on approval. No certified material may be returned because of possible differences of opinion with respect to the grade offered by any third-party organization, dealer, or service. There are absolutely no exceptions to this policy."
That appears crystal clear to me. Again, with no reflection on JTK, IMHO, Heritage simply acted too nice in its customer service in this instance. JTK had been a customer for 15 years and got a "big favor" here.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I agree that JTK got off easy on this one. I had a toned coin that I won in a Signature sale that was not what it looked like and sent the coin back to Heritage. They mailed in back to me and said sorry no returns on Signature sales.
I totally disagree that JTK got off easy,Heritage sold what they knew was overgraded CRAP !!!!
If Heritage sold the coin knowing it was a 66 red that would be ok because it is a "close: judgement call.They also know that NGC copper coin(1929 s) is not guaranteed.As a matter of fact Heritage took multiple copper coins that they knew was overgraded "crap".
It is my view they should have given these coins back to the consignor.Just my opinion
There will inevitably be other PCGS or NGC coins consigned, that you think are wonderful, but which someone else thinks are over-graded junk. What then?
You know that some people have problems with coins which are perfectly fine for the grade - heck, you accuse me of that sometimes.
It would be a nightmare for the auction companies AND their consignors, if they allowed returns, simply because someone (strongly) disagreed with the assigned grades of the coins.
I agree that a coin purchased thru an auction is not an approval service. I also agree with your specific point about nnot returning coins because of a disagreement with the grade on the holder, but I will repeat my point that if an auction company takes inconsistent pictures making the coin look better then it is then their should be a return privelege based on Heritage agreeing that the picture made the coin look different then it really is.
Wondercoin, you made a valid point to my thought about the pictures saying it's easyer for a dealer with a small inventory to take the time needed to get quality pictures of his coins more then a large auction house with many more coins to get pictured, but the idea of on line bidders is for people who can't attend the auction in peson to be able to bid and their best representation of the coin is the image that the auction house provides, as far as getting to have someone look for me goes that is good advice but not everyone has my minds eye to know exactly what I'm looking for even if I've done buisness with them many times.
I've had the picture thing go both ways with me, my half cent horror story where the picture made the coin look better then it was and my 1861 quarter won in a bullit sale where the picture made the reverse of the coin look washed out when it wasn't. I don't believe Heritage can't at least take the time to get better consistent pictures of the thousand dollar and above coins at signature sales.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
Les, I agree with you, that Heritage could and should provide better images.
However, I believe that they are generally known not to have the best images and, whether a potential internet bidder is aware of that or not, the Heritage terms of sale are very explicit about no returns being allowed.
Internet bidders should either get someone to view the lots in person on their behalf, contact someone at Heritage to review the coins for them, view the coins themselves, or be prepared to keep any dogs that they might end up with.
I wish it were otherwise, and I am sympathetic to internet (sight-unseen) bidders. But, this potential downside to the sight-unseen aspect of internet bidding is a fact of life, which should be considered and addressed before placing bids.
JTK - sorry you didn't like the coin, Heritage did you a major favor IMO. But I think that if your a long term customer, then they can make that call.......... provided they now own the coin themselves. They still need to pay the consignor for their generosity. PM me if you have a chance to get together some time next week (or the week after) as I will be right in your neck of the woods and would like to meet other lincoln collectors and exchange thoughts on current issues/topics.
It is possible that Heritage owned the coin and was being nice or that they located an under-bidder who would be willing to pay approximately 5% less than it originally sold for.
1929 s ms 67 red NGC Well struck and exquisitely preserved,this Superb Gem displays lovely toning variations,especially on the reverse,and seems to be free of surface impairments.Highly lustrous,with splendid eye appeal,
The description borders on fraud, an expert in the field (Heritage) should be able to know the difference between a "exquisitely preserved, this Superb Gem displays lovely toning variations" and an overgraded coin. I have had them nit pick in a description on one of my coins on something that was trivial, yet they don't in this case. They knowingly mislead and that fellas is on the border of criminal.
Wow, I'm a day late and a dollar short on this thread, but I definitely found the responses interesting.
Gemtone and Stewart (Even WC inferred he is the guru on this particular coin) have expressed my sentiments exactly.
I could be wrong but I don't think the folks over at HNAI are moonlighting mechanics trying to sell coins. They know (at least purport to know) what is or isn't market acceptable - more than likely why they image and describe the way they do.
Basically, all I'm hearing is consignor, consignor, consignor. If you send a dog in for consignment, you know it's a dog, the HNAI folks should be obligated to remind you it's a dog AND STATE they have an obligation to describe it ACCURATELY (e.g., not the most pleasing example of XX grade, but ...). I don't think I will ever understand why it's okay for an auction house (or anyone for that matter) to make the most money they can to the detriment of a buyer - and by that I mean by deception.
<< <i> one expects Heritage to determine whether a coin is "auction worthy", I can't wait until they start breaking up great classic collections and saying "20% of this landmark set is overgraded, so we can't auction those". Yeah - right >>
I don't think a determination of auction worthiness was the point; simply reasonably indicating that 20% (and specifically which ones) are overgraded IS what should be done.
Lastly, purchasing a dog and trying to be made whole via a TPG simply because it was via and auction is somewhat asinine. I guess you should just HOPE that the TPG agrees and will pay you accordingly; then we will have a two page thread on why you should study the market, not overpay in an auction, HIRE A COMPETENT DEALER TO REVIEW, and on and on.
It WOULD be a great day when the dealers and collectors acknowledge that WE JUST DON'T DO EVERYTHING THE SAME, and shouldn't be expected to.
I would drag on this post, but something came up - I think I touched on most of the issue that really motivated me to comment though.
The challenge of formulating and implementing a a return privilege and also a re-stocking fee or a fee charged to return an item is a steep one. There are many things to consider.
Here are the issues to my mind with regard to an auction company that sells other people's (for the most part) coins:
You need a disincentive for many people to return coins. If you don't charge a return fee, there are some people who will buy coins just to have them for a little while. They're fun and you can take pictures of them and show them to your friends and offer them at local shows to others and if they don't sell, you can then return them!!
There are also folks who get buyers remorse REGULARLY within about 7 days of taking possession of the coin. Granted they usually will be out at least the postage both ways but trust me, that is little incentive to not return coins.
Next is the issue of the potential effect on the consignor - do you want to liquidate your coins at a public auction and get a check 30 to 60 days later? Well, that's not going to happen if the auction company lets buyers return coins. Yes, an auction company that gives a return privilege might get bigger bucks for coins if the buyers can return them, but there are many consignors who simply want to liquidate all their coins to the highest bidder and getting that extra 5% (or whatever) that the auction company might get if they had lenient return privileges might simply not be that important.
Next is the related topic of the negative effect no return privilege has on potential buyers - there are some people who simply won't bid on coins they can't return, let alone discount their bids when there is no return. There are also others who are just very reluctant to bid on coins they have not seen.
Another thing to consider is the effect a really lenient return privilege would have on coin dealers who specialize in bottom feeding - they buy an enormous amount of coins that simply were essentially ignored in an auction - guys who don't specialize in a series but just buy coins whene they are cheap. They would be far less inclined to spend time trying to buy coins at auction if they have to compete with the larger population of potential buyers who might be attracted to an auction because of the liberal return privileges.
To further illustrate my point, but with a different angle, i understand that Stacks regularly auctions off awesome raw coins at good prices. Because they are raw, some dealers attend these auctions because many others stay away - i don't buy raw coins, especially ones i have not seen, and especially ones that i can't return. So, these auctions of raw unreturnable coins don't have as many "retail buyers" because there are many of us who would just avoid those kinds of auctions. (It is my opinion that while some coins may get sold too cheap, because the highest bidder thought is was a 65 and it slabbed a 66 (to make the point), the fact is that many of the coins get purchased by the highest bidder who thought it was a 65 that gets into a 64 holder.)
If Stacks decided to encourage or require their consignors to get the coins certified, many dealers who liked bidding in Stack's auctions might no longer be as interested because now they have to compete with an influx of guys who would now be bidding against them. Again, it's the effect a liberal return policy has on other bidders, which is similar to the effect of adopting a policy of selling only certified coins when at one time you sold many raw coins. In other words, bad terms or conditions can attract many buyers who try to get bargains. (I hope that's clear!)
Next is the loss in revenue that is incurred when coins are returned. Normally the auction house gets around 15% (often part from the buyer, part from the consignor) when a sale is consumated. If they charge a 5% return fee, they're losing a sale and quite a bit of revenue. If a coin "sells" for $20,000 to an internet buyer who returns the coin, and the underbidder was a floor bidder (with no return privilege), and the underbidder refuses the coin (if it's offered to him after the coin is returned - a hassle even when the underbidder is known and can be approached), the auction house loses $2,000 and probably ends up upsetting the consignor who really dislikes the fact that the coin was accepted as returned.
Next is the loss you get when you minimize the results of bidding fever. When a person is allowed to come to his senses and return a coin, you end up eviscerating one of the main points in the auction - to encourage competition. What kind of contest do you have when the contestant can invalidate the whole process?
Next is the effect a return has on the public's mind with regard to a particular coin's desirability. If a coin appears in an auction, gets purchased and then returned, when it appears again, potential buyers wonder, what is wrong with the coin. Coins that are sold twice usually sell for less money the second time around. Remember that Franklin that sold for like $65,000 not long ago? Remember it went up for auction again and sold for around half that amount? That coin wasn't returned, but the point hopefully is made.
Throw in a multiplicity of variables (the amount of a return fee, the many conditions when one could be extended and not extended, etc.) and you end up with a challenging task.
The auction houses try to strike a balance on the issues. Not all of them have arrived at the same conclusion. They value different things and process information differently.
Draconian rules are probably not the answer but neither are liberal return privileges. The best thing to do is read the rules, make friends with the people who you deal with and remember, it's only money. Getting stuck with a coin or taking it on the chin happens to everone who is in coins, even lawyers....on occasion.
Comments
These people belong below ANACS, ICG, and SEGS. They really do suck, in spite of their undeserved "Top tier" status. Wake up, collectors-the "dealer network" shouldn't determine credibilty with a sorry assed grading service like this.
There are a lot of coins in the Signature sale I would have like to bid on; but I did not wish to risk them being dog coins for the grade and had not contracted with anyone to review the coins for me. As many of us know....a good place to unload low quality for the slab grade coins is in a Heritage, Superior or B&M auction. We've all seen coins we wouldn't pay AU55 money for in NGC MS63 slabs....and yes even some in PCGS slabs. One man's horrendous scratch is another man's slight blemish. One man's planchet flaw is another man's slightly weak strike.
I've bought a lot of coins in the Heritage and B&M auctions sight unseen. I've been pleastantly surprised many times. I've been satisfied most of the time; and I've been disappointed a few times.
If I had the right to return every coin that I disagreed on the slab's grade; I would be willing to pay more for the coins and would do a lot more bidding. However, the terms of the sale are clear and a good portion of the time; I don't wish to risk the coin being a dog.
It's just part of the territory that comes with the modern wonders of third-party grading combined with internet, sight-unseen bidding.
I know it's disappointing when it happens and it certainly has made me angry for a while when it happened to me. But, you live and learn. Good luck.
Heritage wants more internet business. A return policy will give those bidding at home more comfort in bidding, like someone has already pointed out. Heritage better be careful to not turn an auction into an approval service. It could get out of hand.
A large part of all these auctions are dealer consignments. Some of these consignors have taken cash advances on these lots. So, it would royally suck if as a cosignor you got these coins back and found out you were in a position of having to payoff the advance, but still owning the coin you were hoping to be rid of.
And yes ALL the auction houses need to improve their descriptions. If you went to lot viewing, read the descriptions, then looked at the coins you would be very disappointed. It's amazing how much a problem is understated.
Personally I feel 5% in a cheap way to get out of a mistake.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I agree with many of the comments that their pictures are poor. Seems that the quality went downhill about 2 years ago. I recall significantly better pictures prior to that.
These days, an ever increasing proportion of auction sales is going to internet bidders who do not have the time and resources to view the coin in person. Providing them with the option to return a slabbed item makes bidding much less risky for them. The notion that a few may abuse the priviledge by seeking a crossover is, it seems to me, stretching a little to support the status quo in the interest of some sellers. A short window to act on returns is all that is needed to eliminate 99% of this already very small level of activity related to returns. Moreover, if Heritage simply shared the return fee with the seller, this would further satisfy the concerns of some sellers about this new policy.
A major part of the overall problem is that the auction houses already bend over backwards not to upset consignors. As such, you rarely see negative comments about a coin in the write-up. This practice is in need of change, and more balanced descriptions would be helpful.
Calling the auction house for assistance with a coin, or even having a dealer look for you, is no substitute for viewing the coin yourself. A major aspect of internet auctions is to eliminate the need to see the coin in person. Many of the same people criticizing the return policy will also tell you never to buy a coin off E-bay from someone who does not have a return privilege. Isn't this position inconsistent? Who as a buyer would not want a return privilege?
The problem of the Heritiage pictures is another issue altogether. Auction houses have been showing color pictures in catalogues for many years, some better than others. How many of you have been disapointed after receiving such coins, and wished you had a return privilege? In the case of Heritage, many of its own officials acknowledge the phtotography problem, but just roll their eyes when I ask why it can't be fixed. This is the real riddle. Who is their photographer -- Steve Ivy's son?
This thread should be about buying PCGS certified copper.
One can get a double guarantee buying from the Evil Empire(Heritage).
IMO Heritage has no right to charge Jack the knife a restocking fee because they knew the coin was grossly overgraded,as well as the consignor knew the coin was grossly overgraded.Do you think Heritage has a staff of incompetants or Numismatic morons on their staff?They knew there was no guarantee from NGC to return the coin.
And Jack the Knife was buying the coin to cross it into a PCGS ms 66 holder.The problem was this particular coin would cross at possibly a 64 r/b or a body bag.And yes Wondercoin was correct in that I would pay $25,000 if the coin was truly a PCGS ms 67 red.And Dave Schweiz would probably pay $35,000.
And the reason Heritage will charge a restocking fee is because they gave the consignor an advance on this coin and it will be appearing in the next Heritage Signature sale or a bullit sale or whatever.The bottom line is Heritage should never take coins like this for auction that are SOOOOOOO overgraded.
stewart
Certainly, Heritage owns any number of the coins they auction. And low end dogs (or misgrades) cannot hardly sell sight seen. I'm sure they make plenty on their submitted upgrades so accepting an occasional hit should be meaningless.
I think Heritage did the right thing in taking it back. Teletrade has a 3% fee for returns and that is quite high enough. 5% is a little stiff.
The 8% return fee on the Internet Only sales (is it still that high?) was enough to keep me from bidding on those. I too was surprised that Heritage allows any returns on any slabbed coins. But I think a total dog should always be an exception if you did not view the coin beforehand.
roadrunner
Again, I believe Heritage is simply taking its fabulous customer service to collectors a bit too far here when they permit returns in a non-approval Signature Sale. IMHO, Heritage should "just say no" and let the speculators (again not directed at JTK, but generally speaking) who failed to hit the jackpot and score a big upgrade on a possible cross coin go where they should - to the grading company to address an issue concerning the slabbing of a coin. Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
P.S. I believe Heritage's stated policy is absolutely NO RETURNS IN THE SIGNATURE SALE. There is always a delicate balance between protecting consignors and addressing the legitimate concerns of bidders.
As for the assertion that Heritage is now allowing returns for any reason on any certified lot for a 5% fee, my prediction is that they will be making a statement denying that. I could not find it in their auction terms and would like to know where the author of this thread found it. If true, I for one will never consign to another of their sales, and I will not be alone in doing so.
Signature Sales: The auction is not on approval. No certified material may be returned because of possible differences of opinion with respect to the grade offered by any third-party organization, dealer, or service. There are absolutely no exceptions to this policy. Under extremely limited circumstances, (e.g. gross cataloging error) a purchaser, who did not bid from the floor, may request Auctioneer to void a sale. Such request for evaluation must be made in writing detailing the alleged gross error, and submission of the lot to the Auctioneer must be preapproved by the Auctioneer. A Bidder must notify Jack Hinton, (ext. 312) in writing of the Bidder's request and such notice must be mailed within three (3) days of the mail Bidder's receipt of the lot. Any lot that is to be evaluated must be received in our offices within 30 days from the date of auction. Grading or method of manufacture do not qualify for this evaluation process nor do such complaints constitute a basis to challenge the authenticity of a lot. AFTER THAT 30-DAY PERIOD, NO LOTS MAY BE RETURNED FOR REASONS OTHER THAN AUTHENTICITY. Lots returned must be housed intact in the original holder. No lots purchased by floor Bidders may be returned (including those Bidders acting as agents for others). Late remittance for purchases may be considered just cause to revoke all return privileges.
Link
That appears crystal clear to me. Again, with no reflection on JTK, IMHO, Heritage simply acted too nice in its customer service in this instance. JTK had been a customer for 15 years and got a "big favor" here.
Wondercoin
I totally disagree that JTK got off easy,Heritage sold what they knew was overgraded CRAP !!!!
If Heritage sold the coin knowing it was a 66 red that would be ok because it is a "close: judgement call.They also know that NGC copper coin(1929 s) is not guaranteed.As a matter of fact Heritage took multiple copper coins that they knew was overgraded "crap".
It is my view they should have given these coins back to the consignor.Just my opinion
Stewart
There will inevitably be other PCGS or NGC coins consigned, that you think are wonderful, but which someone else thinks are over-graded junk. What then?
You know that some people have problems with coins which are perfectly fine for the grade - heck, you accuse me of that sometimes.
It would be a nightmare for the auction companies AND their consignors, if they allowed returns, simply because someone (strongly) disagreed with the assigned grades of the coins.
I agree that a coin purchased thru an auction is not an approval service. I also agree with your specific point about nnot returning coins because of a disagreement with the grade on the holder, but I will repeat my point that if an auction company takes inconsistent pictures making the coin look better then it is then their should be a return privelege based on Heritage agreeing that the picture made the coin look different then it really is.
Wondercoin, you made a valid point to my thought about the pictures saying it's easyer for a dealer with a small inventory to take the time needed to get quality pictures of his coins more then a large auction house with many more coins to get pictured, but the idea of on line bidders is for people who can't attend the auction in peson to be able to bid and their best representation of the coin is the image that the auction house provides, as far as getting to have someone look for me goes that is good advice but not everyone has my minds eye to know exactly what I'm looking for even if I've done buisness with them many times.
I've had the picture thing go both ways with me, my half cent horror story where the picture made the coin look better then it was and my 1861 quarter won in a bullit sale where the picture made the reverse of the coin look washed out when it wasn't. I don't believe Heritage can't at least take the time to get better consistent pictures of the thousand dollar and above coins at signature sales.
Les
However, I believe that they are generally known not to have the best images and, whether a potential internet bidder is aware of that or not, the Heritage terms of sale are very explicit about no returns being allowed.
Internet bidders should either get someone to view the lots in person on their behalf, contact someone at Heritage to review the coins for them, view the coins themselves, or be prepared to keep any dogs that they might end up with.
I wish it were otherwise, and I am sympathetic to internet (sight-unseen) bidders. But, this potential downside to the sight-unseen aspect of internet bidding is a fact of life, which should be considered and addressed before placing bids.
JTK - sorry you didn't like the coin, Heritage did you a major favor IMO. But I think that if your a long term customer, then they can make that call.......... provided they now own the coin themselves. They still need to pay the consignor for their generosity. PM me if you have a chance to get together some time next week (or the week after) as I will be right in your neck of the woods and would like to meet other lincoln collectors and exchange thoughts on current issues/topics.
Wondercoin, your right on the money, as usual.
Just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers,
Bob
1929 s ms 67 red NGC Well struck and exquisitely preserved,this Superb Gem displays lovely toning variations,especially on the reverse,and seems to be free of surface impairments.Highly lustrous,with splendid eye appeal,
and one of the finest known
This is misdescribing a coin IMHO.
Stewart
Gemtone and Stewart (Even WC inferred he is the guru on this particular coin) have expressed my sentiments exactly.
I could be wrong but I don't think the folks over at HNAI are moonlighting mechanics trying to sell coins. They know (at least purport to know) what is or isn't market acceptable - more than likely why they image and describe the way they do.
Basically, all I'm hearing is consignor, consignor, consignor. If you send a dog in for consignment, you know it's a dog, the HNAI folks should be obligated to remind you it's a dog AND STATE they have an obligation to describe it ACCURATELY (e.g., not the most pleasing example of XX grade, but ...). I don't think I will ever understand why it's okay for an auction house (or anyone for that matter) to make the most money they can to the detriment of a buyer - and by that I mean by deception.
<< <i> one expects Heritage to determine whether a coin is "auction worthy", I can't wait until they start breaking up great classic collections and saying "20% of this landmark set is overgraded, so we can't auction those". Yeah - right >>
I don't think a determination of auction worthiness was the point; simply reasonably indicating that 20% (and specifically which ones) are overgraded IS what should be done.
Lastly, purchasing a dog and trying to be made whole via a TPG simply because it was via and auction is somewhat asinine. I guess you should just HOPE that the TPG agrees and will pay you accordingly; then we will have a two page thread on why you should study the market, not overpay in an auction, HIRE A COMPETENT DEALER TO REVIEW, and on and on.
It WOULD be a great day when the dealers and collectors acknowledge that WE JUST DON'T DO EVERYTHING THE SAME, and shouldn't be expected to.
I would drag on this post, but something came up - I think I touched on most of the issue that really motivated me to comment though.
<< <i>moonlighting mechanics trying to sell coins >>
Hey! I take offense to that statement!
Here are the issues to my mind with regard to an auction company that sells other people's (for the most part) coins:
You need a disincentive for many people to return coins. If you don't charge a return fee, there are some people who will buy coins just to have them for a little while. They're fun and you can take pictures of them and show them to your friends and offer them at local shows to others and if they don't sell, you can then return them!!
There are also folks who get buyers remorse REGULARLY within about 7 days of taking possession of the coin. Granted they usually will be out at least the postage both ways but trust me, that is little incentive to not return coins.
Next is the issue of the potential effect on the consignor - do you want to liquidate your coins at a public auction and get a check 30 to 60 days later? Well, that's not going to happen if the auction company lets buyers return coins. Yes, an auction company that gives a return privilege might get bigger bucks for coins if the buyers can return them, but there are many consignors who simply want to liquidate all their coins to the highest bidder and getting that extra 5% (or whatever) that the auction company might get if they had lenient return privileges might simply not be that important.
Next is the related topic of the negative effect no return privilege has on potential buyers - there are some people who simply won't bid on coins they can't return, let alone discount their bids when there is no return. There are also others who are just very reluctant to bid on coins they have not seen.
Another thing to consider is the effect a really lenient return privilege would have on coin dealers who specialize in bottom feeding - they buy an enormous amount of coins that simply were essentially ignored in an auction - guys who don't specialize in a series but just buy coins whene they are cheap. They would be far less inclined to spend time trying to buy coins at auction if they have to compete with the larger population of potential buyers who might be attracted to an auction because of the liberal return privileges.
To further illustrate my point, but with a different angle, i understand that Stacks regularly auctions off awesome raw coins at good prices. Because they are raw, some dealers attend these auctions because many others stay away - i don't buy raw coins, especially ones i have not seen, and especially ones that i can't return. So, these auctions of raw unreturnable coins don't have as many "retail buyers" because there are many of us who would just avoid those kinds of auctions. (It is my opinion that while some coins may get sold too cheap, because the highest bidder thought is was a 65 and it slabbed a 66 (to make the point), the fact is that many of the coins get purchased by the highest bidder who thought it was a 65 that gets into a 64 holder.)
If Stacks decided to encourage or require their consignors to get the coins certified, many dealers who liked bidding in Stack's auctions might no longer be as interested because now they have to compete with an influx of guys who would now be bidding against them. Again, it's the effect a liberal return policy has on other bidders, which is similar to the effect of adopting a policy of selling only certified coins when at one time you sold many raw coins. In other words, bad terms or conditions can attract many buyers who try to get bargains. (I hope that's clear!)
Next is the loss in revenue that is incurred when coins are returned. Normally the auction house gets around 15% (often part from the buyer, part from the consignor) when a sale is consumated. If they charge a 5% return fee, they're losing a sale and quite a bit of revenue. If a coin "sells" for $20,000 to an internet buyer who returns the coin, and the underbidder was a floor bidder (with no return privilege), and the underbidder refuses the coin (if it's offered to him after the coin is returned - a hassle even when the underbidder is known and can be approached), the auction house loses $2,000 and probably ends up upsetting the consignor who really dislikes the fact that the coin was accepted as returned.
Next is the loss you get when you minimize the results of bidding fever. When a person is allowed to come to his senses and return a coin, you end up eviscerating one of the main points in the auction - to encourage competition. What kind of contest do you have when the contestant can invalidate the whole process?
Next is the effect a return has on the public's mind with regard to a particular coin's desirability. If a coin appears in an auction, gets purchased and then returned, when it appears again, potential buyers wonder, what is wrong with the coin. Coins that are sold twice usually sell for less money the second time around. Remember that Franklin that sold for like $65,000 not long ago? Remember it went up for auction again and sold for around half that amount? That coin wasn't returned, but the point hopefully is made.
Throw in a multiplicity of variables (the amount of a return fee, the many conditions when one could be extended and not extended, etc.) and you end up with a challenging task.
The auction houses try to strike a balance on the issues. Not all of them have arrived at the same conclusion. They value different things and process information differently.
Draconian rules are probably not the answer but neither are liberal return privileges. The best thing to do is read the rules, make friends with the people who you deal with and remember, it's only money. Getting stuck with a coin or taking it on the chin happens to everone who is in coins, even lawyers....on occasion.