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Just got an eye opener from Heritage
jacktheknife
Posts: 1,547 ✭
Returned a dog 29-S in NGC MS-67RD from Signature sale. I just received a call from a very young sounding lady from Heritage informing me that her "chief cataloger" has accepted the return but Heritage is going to charge me a 5% restocking fee. She very nicely explained that it was in the terms and conditions. I have been doing business with Heritage for about 15 years and never had this happen, is it something new? I must say however that I didn't have a problem with it as I felt the approach was very courteous. Rather than just stick the 5% on my credit card, they called to discuss it with me first.
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I hope they don't need a seventh copy of my resale permit again.
Obscurum per obscurius
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
JTK: Nothing personal directed at you, but, boy, would I be pis-ed if I had consigned the coin to the auction and I later found out someone had simply bid it up without viewing it and wanted their money back because they didn't like it. Serious collectors chasing high priced coins should know to simply pay a skilled dealed 5%-10% in the first place to screen the coins if they can not lot view the coins themselves. After all, the 5%-10% fee only pertains to coins actually won, not the myriad crappy lots you get a report on which are not bid on on the sound advice of the dealer.
What would the auction arena come to if bidders could simply bid away on NGC-MS67RD possible crossover coins (which if crossable would add thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars, value to an item in the case of an early Lincoln cent like this one) with the only downside being 5% risk of a "restocking charge"?
HERITAGE WENT ABOVE AND BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY HERE. They are a great company and wanted to keep a bidder customer happy. But, they need to be real careful here to ensure this is not being abused IMHO. Is it unreasonable to say that if a bidder wants to enjoy the fruits of a "big time hit" for crossing a coin bought cheap at auction, they need to assume some responsibility for those coins which will not cross?
And, as for this coin, does anyone out there truly believe they have any chance of buying a great NGC Lincoln in an auction conducted in Stewart's backyard, not to mention a Heritage Signature sale? IMHO, the monent one would win the coin (for anything less than a mountain of cash), they could almost guarantee the coin was not going to work (take this last comment from the guy who bid around $27,000 for a nice MS65RD 1912(s) Lincoln in a recent Heritage sale and still got outbid for a coin that lists around $6k - check their archives to see a beautiful 1912(s) cent).
JUST MY 2 CENTS HERE.
WONDERCOIN
Just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>An auction is just that...an auction. It's not a supermarket for cherry-pickers. >>
I agree but there are special circumstances such as a fake or tooled coin or even PVC damage. mike
You're absolutely correct. However, problems such as you stated should be disclosed in the discription.
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>JTK: Nothing personal directed at you, but, boy, would I be pis-ed if I had consigned the coin to the auction and I
HERITAGE WENT ABOVE AND BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY HERE. They are a great company and wanted to keep a bidder customer happy. But, they need to be real careful here to ensure this is not being abused IMHO. Is it unreasonable to say that if a bidder wants to enjoy the fruits of a "big time hit" for crossing a coin bought cheap at auction, they need to assume some responsibility for those coins which will not cross? >>
I agree with Wondercoin on the above.
<< <i>Nothing personal directed at you, but, boy, would I be pis-ed if I had consigned the coin to the auction and I later found out someone had simply bid it up without viewing it and wanted their money back because they didn't like it. >>
Then you should direct that anger at the real culprit: Heritage. It is they who failed to disclose the true condition of the coin. This is deception by omission.
<< <i>HERITAGE WENT ABOVE AND BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY HERE. >>
No they didn't. They corrected their own screwup and still charged him for it.
Russ, NCNE
Heritage the "culprit"? Not the bidder who didn't bother to examine the lot before bidding, not the grading company who grades the coin in the first place (and may have even graded the coin just fine - big assumption here that since the coin is not "crossable" it is a "dog") - sure Russ - whatever you say.
Wondercoin
This is indicative of the direction that the major dealers are heading. I will not purchase from anyone who has a restocking fee., even though I return an exceedingly small percentage of the coins I buy, I still want the option just in case.
<< <i>(and may have even graded the coin just fine - big assumption here that since the coin is not "crossable" it is a "dog") >>
Wondercoin,
Show me where in his post he decided it was a dog because it was not crossable. I'm not surprised, though, that you believe the seller has no obligation to disclose the true condition of a coin in their description.
Russ, NCNE
Want to get personal? Then, I am not surprised you are comfortable trying to steal a coin at auction YOU NEVER EVEN BOTHERED TO LOOK AT OR HAVE SOMEONE LOOK AT FOR YOU and when it doesn't work out the way you like (i.e. not "scoring like a pig"), go crying like a baby for a refund to the auction house, pointing the finger at everyone and throwing around legal mumbo jumbo. And, if you don't understand what is going on here with this NGC Lincoln cent, I suggest sticking to your Accented Hairs.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Then, I am not surprised you are comfortable trying to steal a coin at auction YOU NEVER EVEN BOTHERED TO LOOK AT OR HAVE SOMEONE LOOK AT FOR YOU and when it doesn't work out the way you like (i.e. not "scoring like a pig"), go crying like a baby for a refund to the auction house, pointing the finger at everyone and throwing around legal mumbo jumbo >>
Wondercoin,
Actually, I've never done that. Which, of course, makes that a pretty lame shot.
Russ, NCNE
Nor, do I do what you took the first cheap shot at me for.
******************************************
ANYWAY, I STARTED MY FIRST COMMENT WITH THE STATEMENT THAT I WAS PROBABLY VOICING A MINORITY OPINION ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD PRIMARILY MADE UP OF COLLECTORS, BUT I WAS PLEASED TO SEE MOST FOLKS DID AT LEAST CONSIDER THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS. AS OUTLAW SAID, THE AUCTION IS NOT A SUPERMARKET FOR CHERRYPICKERS.
WONDERCOIN
I have found this process very helpful, and have (cross my fingers) thus far not been disappointed.
<< <i>When the auction house fails to describe the negatives of a coin (when it is a serious negative) then returns should be free. They describe the positives ad nauseum why not the negatives.
The most important part of the auction are the buyers therefore all aspects of the coin need to be described. >>
Perfectly said.
Russ, NCNE
Craig: Yes, it does, but that is not such a big deal IMHO if you are buying a coin you hope to cross and make a $30,000 profit on and are too foolish to retain an expert dealer to handle the deal for you in the first place for the same 5%-10%. But, let's discuss the reality of the situations you mentioned - namely returning $1000 coins with fees of say $50. If the coin crosses, say it is worth $3,000 or $4,000 -then $50 is nothing. You can return 50 coins and keep just 1 and still make money - UNFAIR IMHO. Take that NCG-MS67* quarter you bid on - you bid expecting it to be a PCGS-MS67 - since it was just an "MS66" in your book, you felt it was fine to return it. Unfair to the consignor IMHO. If you didn't think NGC graded it correctly, the original consignor should not have to suffer. Why not send it to NGC to examine again - if you are right, they can take it off the market and pay you, instead of having it refilter through the system for someone else to deal with. The bidder has an easy method for handling the situation - simply pay 5% or 10% for a professional opinion on the coin before the auction (again, only payable if you win it and nothing owing if you don't). The Signature sale is not a supermarket for cherrypicking cherries IMHO
Craig - and let me just add you are a very honorable gentleman. Just think about what I am saying - reasonable men may differ
Wondercoin
It has always been my opinion that any environment is ripe for cherrypicking. This is the essence of any free market. I make every effort to share my variety and error finds with others, whether it pertains to detecting die doubling or mechanical doubling, or whether it pertains to cherrypicking for grade, and subsequently upgrading, I also make an effort to educate others on the finer points of grading.
It is my contention that making money and education, are not mutually exclusive, its how you go about it thats the real distinction. So, once again, my radar is always on , no matter what environment I'm in, so if I can upgrade at an auction by Heritage, at a show, or on Ebay, or if I can tell a friend that their coin can upgrade, and he and I can both learn who to grade better, whats the differentiation if it is ethically done. Why is a Heritage signature sale not ripe for cherrypicking in your opinion?
edited for poor grammer
I don't think Wondercoin was inferring that the Sig Sale should be exempt from cherrying. I think the point is that if you want to cherrypick, then attend auctions to do so or hire someone to do it for you. But don't bid with the intention of cherrying sight unseen (which is what I consider internet bidding, even with picture) and then be disappointed with the coin because it fits the grade on the holder.
Cheers,
Bob
Not ripe for cherrypicking UNLESS you plan to PAY FOR what you buy. Big "unless" in that sentence.
If you plan to PAY FOR what you buy - "cherrypick" away. Is that fair in your opinion?
Wondercoin
It seems somewhat ingenuous to me that numerous members here will waste little time telling you that NGC overgrades coins by a grade on lincolns or washingtons then complain when they don't measure up to a crossover or what they thought the coin should look like and want their money back. If you don't see the coin in person why the heck are you taking this gamble? I just don't get it. I feel I assume the risk of buying a slab coin in an auction and if doesn't measure up to what I think it should its my fault for buying it.
<< <i>When did this thread become about crossovers? >>
When Wondercoin decided to read that in to the original post.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>It's my understanding that if you buy the coin in person at the auction that you have no return privilege. >>
That makes sense since the bidder has the opportunity to evaluate the coin in-hand.
<< <i>This seems to give an internet bidder an unfair advantage. >>
It would only give the internet bidder an unfair advantage if the auction descriptions were 100% accurate, including any negatives about the coin.
Russ, NCNE
Cheers,
Bob
The best response to this thread so far!
Sean: Just like MANOFCOINS discussion of the NCG-MS67* quarter return to Heritage because it was only an MS66 in his book, coins like the 29(s) Lincoln NGC-MS67RD IMHO are in many cases all about the potenital "cross" angle, even if it goes into a PCGS-MS66RD holder. My comments regarding retaining the coins you bid on at major public auctions do not change though whether we are discussing crossing or not. If a bidder pays too much for a PCGS or NGC coin that he have no intention to upgrade or cross, that is still the bidder's fault, not the consignor's IMHO. If the coin is grossly overgraded as it is suggested the 29(s) Lincoln is, again, why not simply ask NGC to do the right thing and remove it from the market? I see countless threads where NGC is only too happy to do this. Or, what if a coin in question is really just fine and the bidder simply bid too much and has regrets - again, bidder's problem IMHO.
Wondercoin
If you want a second chance, look at the coin in person, then bid on the Internet!
<< <i>Restocking fees exist, like them or not. If you don't like them, then don't bid. Like any other auction (or ANY business for that matter) if you can't agree with the terms of the sale then find another place to do business.
Cheers,
Bob >>
This is definately the best solution for bidding on auctions!
<< <i>"A 5% fee on a $20,000 item comes to $1000"
Craig: Yes, it does, but that is not such a big deal IMHO if you are buying a coin you hope to cross and make a $30,000 profit on and are too foolish to retain an expert dealer to handle the deal for you in the first place for the same 5%-10%. But, let's discuss the reality of the situations you mentioned - namely returning $1000 coins with fees of say $50. If the coin crosses, say it is worth $3,000 or $4,000 -then $50 is nothing. You can return 50 coins and keep just 1 and still make money - UNFAIR IMHO. Take that NCG-MS67* quarter you bid on - you bid expecting it to be a PCGS-MS67 - since it was just an "MS66" in your book, you felt it was fine to return it. Unfair to the consignor IMHO. If you didn't think NGC graded it correctly, the original consignor should not have to suffer. Why not send it to NGC to examine again - if you are right, they can take it off the market and pay you, instead of having it refilter through the system for someone else to deal with. The bidder has an easy method for handling the situation - simply pay 5% or 10% for a professional opinion on the coin before the auction (again, only payable if you win it and nothing owing if you don't). The Signature sale is not a supermarket for cherrypicking cherries IMHO
Craig - and let me just add you are a very honorable gentleman. Just think about what I am saying - reasonable men may differ
Wondercoin >>
Here's my 2c:
$1,000 is still cheaper than flying out to an auction and spending a minimum of two days of my time.
Wow, the last couple of posts I've put up obviously didn't please the masses.
First, I was just making an observation. I had never been charged a restocking fee before. Heritage was, again, very cordial about it, contacting me by phone and follow up email.
Second, I don't "cherrypick" auctions. I can count on one hand the number of times I have returned a coin in the past 15 years. I had no intention of ever trying to cross the coin, hoping for a "big score". If this coin was a cossover 67, as was stated previously in this thread, Stewart would have been all over it. It simply was not imaged well and when I examined the coin in person, it was clearly not even a PQ66 (maybe not even a 66). Which brings up my last point. Internet bidding has certainly been very beneficial for the auction houses. Among all the benefits, there are a few shortcomings. As most would agree, there is nothing like in person viewing when making pre-auction choices. Unfortunately, internet bidders don't have that luxury. They rely on the images provided by the auction house. Heritage, I think, has a hard time imaging copper. Check out B & M, their auction images of copper (at least the Lincolns) are much better than on the Heritage site. Anyway, my point is that if the auction houses want to enjoy the benefits of internet bidders then they will have to accept an infrequent return. As I stated before, I don't have a problem with the restocking fee, it's just that it had never happened before (then again, it's been years since I returned an auction coin).
P.S. I'll try to post less controversial topics in the future, like "Gee, check out my new Lincoln."
<< <i>
<< <i>It's my understanding that if you buy the coin in person at the auction that you have no return privilege. >>
That makes sense since the bidder has the opportunity to evaluate the coin in-hand.
<< <i>This seems to give an internet bidder an unfair advantage. >>
It would only give the internet bidder an unfair advantage if the auction descriptions were 100% accurate, including any negatives about the coin.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ if you spent money to fly to an auction, pay for a hotel room and miss work to view coins for auction you already have an investment in the coin. You certainly can examine and decide for yourself if you want to make a further auction. However if you get home decide you missed something on the coin or decided for whatever reason you have no return privilege. On the other hand you can sit at home not expend any funds to bid on the internet, take a gamble on the coin and decide later if you want to keep it. This is hardly a fair playing field.
Now I know that know that it is impossible to be a 100% accurate on an auction description, just for the fact that something that may appeal to you on a coin wouldn't to someone else. You might not see this as unfair but it doesn't mean that those of us who do are wrong. If you were going to spend big bucks on a coin and had a chance to call the seller or ask an attendee or dealer view the coin for you, would you not do it?
Wednesday September 10, 2003 9:14 PM
uofa1285
Senior Member
Posts: 324
Joined: May 2003
Got royaly scr*wed on one of their(Superior) high dollar auctions for a monster toned morgan...paid $1,800 - coin arrived - colors were somehow inverted from the pics thereby making them totally misrepresentative - coin has a market value of about $500 IMO. I contacted them - they acknowledged the pics were not representative but said that since it was NGC graded, I was stuck. VERY upsetting.
The moral is...only buy if you are willing to deal with NO RETURNS.
Doug
Link
IrishMike,
I wouldn't exactly say it isn't a fair playing field. As you stated in your post, the person sitting at home takes "a gamble" on the coin and its description. On the other hand, the person that assumes the cost of going to the auction in person has the advantage of on-site viewing. If one were going to try to cherrypick an auction, this would be the only way possible to do it. All in all, I think it is a pretty fair playing field between on-site bidders and internet bidders.
<< <i>Just expressing how I feel about live auctions where the buyer has ample opportunity to have the coin viewed but elects not to then has the right to return it. To me that is not fair to the floor bidders. >>
Let me clarify something here. I do not believe an internet auction bidder has a right to return a coin simply because they decided they "don't like it", have buyer's remorse, or were looking for an upgrade candidate. It's an auction, not an approval service. If one wants that privilege on a unilateral basis, then buy from a retail dealer.
My point is that if there is a legitimate problem with the coin that was not disclosed in the description or clearly visible in the images, then the onus is on the seller to make it right.
Russ, NCNE
AMEN, RUSS!!
Auctions are not meant to be an approval service. The fact that Heritage now allows returns on their certified coins will weigh heavily in my decision on where to consign my coins in the future. The fact that they would return an auction consignment coin to me and then keep the 5% fee does not sound fair. A poor business decision on their part IMO.
I've seen some coin websites put up consistent high quality pictures of their coins for sale like Larry Whittlow or Anaconda, and forum members like Russ, so why shouldn't the largest coin firm in the world be able to fix this ?
Les