1879-CC "GSA" Morgan sold for $405.29. Surprise! It's a COPY!
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Ljr1964
Posts: 132
Stockbidder2 sells replica Morgans and other proofs. I have no problem with replicas if somewhere in the ad it says so, EVEN so laymen can understand without reading between the lines. 100 mil silver clad means nothing to an uneducated collector.
So I ask you, is this ad legitimate or fraudulent? If fraudulent, how does one complain to Ebay if you were not the bidder? He runs all auctions private and NEVER states "Copy" or shows the reverse.
Thanks.=11979&item=2203776485">Truth or Dare?
So I ask you, is this ad legitimate or fraudulent? If fraudulent, how does one complain to Ebay if you were not the bidder? He runs all auctions private and NEVER states "Copy" or shows the reverse.
Thanks.=11979&item=2203776485">Truth or Dare?
LJR
0
Comments
The auction was directed in that manner.
1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
International Coins
"A work in progress"
Wayne
eBay registered name:
Hard_ Search (buyer/bidder, a small time seller)
e-mail: wayne.whatley@gmail.com
However, there is a level of disclosure which should be met by the seller, and this guy falls woefully short.
Besides the fact that the auction never says copy, replica, faux, recreation, piece de caprice, model, or any of the other weasel words that indicate the item isn't the genuine article, failing to state an article is genuine does not make it OK to sell fakes. There has to be a prima facie understanding that any article offered for sale is genuine unless declared otherwise.
The item is listed in the category for Morgan dollars - it is not a Morgan dollar.
The item is described as "1879 'GSA' Carson City Morgan Silver Proof" - it is not a GSA, little quotation marks notwithstanding. In fact, there is no reason whatsoever to use the term "GSA" in this auction except to be deceptive.
The reverse of the item is not pictured, because that's where the COPY stamp appears.
The ONLY hint that this is not a genuine GSA 1879-CC Morgan is this one sentence: "It's the rare 1879 GSA Morgan silver dollar as a 100 Mil Pure Silver Proof" . It's obviously worded as vaguely as possible.
In my mind this auction is out-and-out fraud.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
You said it a lot better than I did or could. It would be VERY easy for a person new to collecting US coins to be suck into this.
It disappoints me to see people do this. Money is only that and many need it, many more just want it, but to deceive to get it is another.
Just my opinion, of course, but that is what I think.
1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
International Coins
"A work in progress"
Wayne
eBay registered name:
Hard_ Search (buyer/bidder, a small time seller)
e-mail: wayne.whatley@gmail.com
Unfornunitly it is hard to get this message across to new collectors. For many years my wife and I collected Chinese art, and made many friends in China. The chinese are so desperate for cash that they will copy and sell anything. In a discussion with a friend in China last month I inquired about collecting some older Chinese coins since many were done away with by the Communists. He informed me that Chinese forgers had made many dies of Chinese coins and that most of the stuff on ebay was fake. What is worse is that he also told me that he was starting to see some U.S. fake coins appeaing in the market there. As hot as the low grade type market is I think it is only a matter of time before we see thousands of fakes from China pouring into the U.S. market.
The average annual wage in China is currently $400 per year so selling 100 colonials at $35 each is 9 years wages!
This seller sickens me.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
I realize it might be a long shot, but, not a lot of effort would be required and it is for a good cause.
Regardless of how little or much responsibility one thinks that bidders should bear, the seller is clearly purposely deceptive in a number of ways.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
That statement alone would lead some to believe that it's genuine. I agree that anyone who doesn't know anything about coins shouldn't be bidding that kind of money. The fact that the seller provided the specs, doesn't mean squat. An uneducated buyer isn't going to know what that means. No where does the description even alude to the fact that it's a fake.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
<< <i>just out of curiousity, do you, at any level, believe that bidders have a responsibility to know what they're doing? >>
<< <i>Pretty sleazy--but I've got agree that buyers are responsibile for their actions >>
Give me a break. If that is truly how you feel don't start crying when your 80 year old grandmother is swindled out of her entire savings. She should have known better before she handed over her cash.
Its attitudes like yours that allow this type of BS to thrive.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>So I ask you, is this ad legitimate or fraudulent? >>
my professional opinion as a lawyer of 20 years and a former assistant state attorney in palm beach co, fl that prosecuted frauds, among others, is that there is ample information provided in the auction description for any person performing due diligence to fully comprehend the whole of the auction.
what many of you are doing is nothing but hair splitting. how much info is enough? you & i understood what was being auctioned. you & i were not mislead. why? because the seller provided enough information for you to understand what you would be getting had you won that auction. why do you assume that folks willing to spend $400.+ don't understand? are you the brightest crayon in the box? or, do you wish you could make a killing selling copies and this is petty jealousy? i spent an hour the other nite researching a digital camera purchase. too much time? not enough? sellers can not anticipate every potential question. so, when is enough info, enuff?
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
What we should do, and I have already done by myself without effect, is to write to ebay and insist that a separate category be established for known fakes, counterfeits, replicas, etc. and that a policy be established that such items not be listed in the categories for authentic items.
<< <i>are you the brightest crayon in the box? or, do you wish you could make a killing selling copies and this is petty jealousy? >>
No, I'm just honest and straightforward. You can bet I'd avoid your auctions!
Give me a break. If that is truly how you feel don't start crying when your 80 year old grandmother is swindled out of her entire savings. She should have known better before she handed over her cash.
Its attitudes like yours that allow this type of BS to thrive. >>
Gee, Thanks WWBillman! I know you''ll appreciate a new service--Purchaser Protection Program--just sign up and a panel of experts will review all of your proposed purchases to insure that you are being fairly treated--and if it is determined that a purchase is not in your best interest--well then, you won't be allowed to buy it.
Can a seller set up his auction in a way that all bids placed will be private?
Ebay should have rules that force items like this into some sort of sub category of coins (Coin Copies).When I first started collecting coins and buying on ebay I made some DUMMY mistakes ,one after another(not as bad as this one though)..I find that I am buying less and less on ebay these days when it comes to coins.The items i do consider buying are usually from a half a dozen or so sellers that I have watched forever.
Hey I did not lie. I may have omited some truths and only showed her the pretty side of the coin but I guess she deserves to lose her money because I provided ample information in the description for any person performing due diligence to fully comprehend the whole.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
I still say ebay needs a separate category for copies, replicas, counterfeits, and fakes.
Jealous? Fraud is a cakewalk on Ebay. Perhaps it's people who can empathize with a person who is about to lose $400+ on a $19.95 slug from the NCM.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
There is a seller who is unethical, at best. There are bidders who are uninformed and / or greedy. Yet, you are fighting amongst yourselves and insulting each other..
<< <i>No, I'm just honest and straightforward. You can bet I'd avoid your auctions! >>
as are we in our auctions. i've sold to many board members and the only negs we've logged are from n.p.b. the only returned item we've had is from a guy that agreed with the grade but thought he may be able to upgrade it. you'd be very pleased with bidding in one of our auctions. (most of the stuff gets ripped!)
again, the questions begs an answer. if you understood what was being sold, why do you assume the bidder did not?
<< <i>I still say ebay needs a separate category for copies, replicas, counterfeits, and fakes. >>
ebay does not compel any seller to list their item in any particular category. that seller could still list it under morgan dollars. if you want to list your coins under music cd's they figure you know what you are doing.
(personally, i think the auction was a sham but that is just my opinion. i don't any sale was taking place.)
<< <i>ebay does not compel any seller to list their item in any particular category. that seller could still list it under morgan dollars. if you want to list your coins under music cd's they figure you know what you are doing. >>
That's all well and good for most situations, but not in the case of replicas/copies. As I mentioned above, I think a buyer has a right to expect that an item is the genuine article unless clearly identified otherwise. I am surprised that you would say there is "ample information provided in the auction description for any person performing due diligence to fully comprehend the whole of the auction."
There is no mention that the item is a replica/copy. What is the purpose of mentioning "GSA"? Let's use the same wording but change GSA to something else....
.......
1879 "Eliasberg" CARSON CITY MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR ** HERALDING THE MOST PRECIOUS "Eliasberg" CARSON CITY MORGAN** ****** NO RESERVE ******
Minted from 1878 to 1885 and then from 1889 to 1893, fewer than 2% of all Morgans bear the precious "CC'" mint mark. Their heavy, 3/4oz silver content came from the most famous silver strike ever in U.S. history, the Comstock Lode near Carson City, Nevada. "CC" dollars were minted and circulated at a time when much of America was a wild frontier. But in the next century hundreds of millions of Morgans were melted by the U.S. government, as well as by speculators and silver profiteers. The "CC" Morgan became more and more scarce.
Louis Eliasberg was the only person ever to complete a set of every US coin ever minted, an accomplishment which will never be duplicated. His collection was so vast, it was too large to be sold all at one time, and an entire series of auctions was necessary! Today, many collectors desire to own a coin which once was in that greatest colletion of all time. Of all the "CC" Morgans collected by Eliasberg, none was scarcer or more desirable than the precious 1879 "CC" Morgan.
Now, you can reserve your own 1879 'Eliasberg' Carson City Morgan Silver Proof. It's the rare 1879 Eliasberg Morgan silver dollar as a 100 Mil Pure Silver Proof, complete in deluxe custom holder. Miss Liberty's magnificently engraved head is profiled in frosted relief above the 1879 date on a mirror-like background on the obverse. The majestic American Eagle displays its full wing span in frosted relief on a mirror-like background on the reverse, and the magic "CC" mint mark is clearly visible under the wreath.
....
Is that still OK? I only substituted "Eliasberg" for "GSA" and replaced the words about the GSA auction with words about Eliasberg's collection.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I would also like to add that just being part of something like this board has helped greatly.
Mitch
<< <i>if you understood what was being sold, why do you assume the bidder did not?
>>
i think we can safely assume that somebody who paid 400 bucks for 5 bucks worth of silver did not understand what was being sold.
<< <i>my professional opinion as a lawyer of 20 years and a former assistant state attorney in palm beach co, fl that prosecuted frauds, among others, is that there is ample information provided in the auction description for any person performing due diligence to fully comprehend the whole of the auction.
what many of you are doing is nothing but hair splitting. how much info is enough? you & i understood what was being auctioned. you & i were not mislead. why? because the seller provided enough information for you to understand what you would be getting had you won that auction. why do you assume that folks willing to spend $400.+ don't understand? are you the brightest crayon in the box? or, do you wish you could make a killing selling copies and this is petty jealousy? i spent an hour the other nite researching a digital camera purchase. too much time? not enough? sellers can not anticipate every potential question. so, when is enough info, enuff? >>
As a lawyer of 5 years who has enough common sense to know better, I'd say you are WRONG that the seller hasn't committed fraud. We know it's a copy solely based on the picture. I don't see anything in the description that suggests that it's not the real deal. If the guy didn't post the picture, no one could conclude that it was a copy.
With that said, let me ask you something about the concept of fraud mr former assistant state attorney. Is fraud based upon what the actual victim perceived, what a reasonable person would have perceived, or something else? Let's say a little old lady was defrauded out of out millions by mr meany. If the entire world, except for the little old lady, would have recognized that the statements made by mr meany to little old lady were false, has mr meany committed fraud? What if a reasonable person would have recognized the fraud? Also, think about whether a reasonable person would have recognized that the coin in that auction was a copy. Now I'm not talking about a reasonable person on this board, I talking about a reasonable person in general. What do ya say, mr former assistant state attorney. At least what does Florida's law say. You should know the answer without even hesitating.
Also, as I am sure that you are aware, you can commit fraud by leaving something out (fraud by omission).
How can you sleep at night full knowing that you're selling this bull$hit to unsuspecting buyers? I find it appalling!
Let's see what this jerk-off's response will be like. I abhor these A$$HOLES...
<< <i>That's exactly correct. The seller put enough information in the listing to avoid the legal definition of "fraud". However, the seller only included enough information that an ignorant person would be easily mislead. Illegal, no. Unethical, yes.
I still say ebay needs a separate category for copies, replicas, counterfeits, and fakes. >>
this sounds reasonable to me.
the word "copy" makes it clear to everyonenot just to a bunch of word smiths.
thats what wrong with this country....we've developed so many ways to talk to each other,
now, nobody (except lawyers) know what anyone is saying...i say simple up the language, and get rid of the word smiths.
not everyone has a degree in "word-smith-ing" ,.......but aparently a ebay seller does....and uses it to skirt the fraud link.
there are more people with average "smarts" (some with money...and like to collect coins) then degree seekers.
there should be a separate category for copies....the simplest end to this conversation and thread.
Kranky:
"GSA" is used because the proof comes in a "GSA" case. That is how NCM markets it
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Click on "Report listing violations or problems with another eBay member", then, enter the item number (2203776485) and your comments.
Unlike many here, I don't hate copies, I sell them on Ebay to eager collectors. The glowing difference between my style and Stockbidder2 is all my ads list copy, replica or reproduction in either the header or more usually in the decription. NONE of my auctions are private and often the reverse of the proof is shown in addition to the obverse. That said, when I get a customer who wins and says he thought it was real, we just exchange positive feedback and no harm is done. I'll absorb the couple of dollars. And yes, I have a seven day return policy with a 15% restocking fee. I have found that this clientele is very grateful to own a copy of the most venerable Morgan dates that would otherwise be out of reach to them. Thanks for all your feeback.
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato