The coin looks gem to me from the picture. Seller has 100% positive feedback. Why wouldn't the coin grade at least 64/65 by PCGS from what the scan looks like?
you've been a member of the forum long enough to have learned that if you want to get a really objective opinion about a coin, it's sometimes best to post only the picture to avoid holder bias. i feel safe in saying that the opinions of the dissenters are based primarily on the holder and not that coin.
JMHO of course, so slam away!! but like Andy and Claus both said, what looks wrong about the coin other than the holder it's in??? please, inquiring minds want to know.
Mr Sears and Roebuck, first of all I do not know what JMHO means, secondly even though I have been a member of this forum for quite sometime I do not know how to edit pictures, and thirdly the star on that coin looks like one of your counterstamped units-------------------------------BigE
Hmmmmmm...The more I look at the star the more it does seem to be faceted rather than flat. The angles of the star points look right making it very difficult to tell whether it is the toning on the coin or the lighting in which the picture was taken that make the star look faceted.
Oh my, NTC definitely screwed the pooch on this one -- it is NOT an authentic Grant with Star half dollar. Genuine Grant with Star half dollars were struck from clashed dies, the two most prominent diagnostics being a triangular clash mark protruding from Grants tie and an oval die clash mark on the top left of the "G" in Grant.
Genuine Grant with Star half dollars were struck from clashed dies, the two most prominent diagnostics being a triangular clash mark protruding from Grants tie and an oval die clash mark on the top left of the "G" in Grant.
Mike - Is that true of ALL Grant Stars, or just most of them?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
there are clash marks which are not apparent on the fakes or the "no star" coins. this is logical. at the same time, there appears to be two reverses which Breen and Swiatek assume to be either early and late states of one die pair or two different pairs. again, this is logical. perhaps after a period of striking coins with the clashed pair of dies, they determined them to be unuseable and switched to a new pair. very confusing at best.
considering the price of the coin....................
i saw a nice NGC MS65 no star at a show today, much safer!!!
I've yet to see an authentic Grant with Star that doesn't show evidence of the clash marks I mentioned -- but I have seen dozens of Grant half dollars without the clash marks that obviously had the Star added outside of the mint. An old time collection I purchased last year had not one, but TWO Grant with Stars (minus the clash marks) that were not the real deal. I can't state with 100% certainty that a genuine Grant with Star without clash marks does not exist, but if it does, I've never seen one.
considering the risk of certifying a counterfiet coin, do you think PCGS would refuse to holder a Grant absent the clash?? this seems a bit like proving their are no UFO's!! it's easy enough to show what isn't genuine, yet there appears the possibility of coins with no evidence of die clash may exist.
Here are a genuine photo on the left and the coin in question on the right. As Mike mentions - you can see the die clash on the coin on the left. With a mintage of only 4200 and change, you would have to think that only one die pair was used to make these coins, so it is coceivable that some exist without the die clash. However, if you look at the positioning of the star of the coin on the left with relationship to the last A in America, it seems that it does not match the coin on the right. In addition, though this might be the photo, the stars don't seem to look the same. Obviously if the star was punched after the coin left the mint, there would be a flat spot on the back of the coin, I didn't notice one, but maybe one of you eagle eyes can take a closer look.
the following is quoted from Bowers' commem. encyclopedia:
Grant with-star half dollars exist in at least three different die states: perfect dies (early), clashed dies (showing the effects of the dies coming together without an intervening planchet), and lapped dies (late state of the dies, repolished to remove clash marks).
he footnotes this passage with a reference to "Grant Star Commemorative Halves- A Study of Die States," by Jerry Bobbe, The Commemorative Trail, Fall 1988.
he continues:
All pieces offered should be checked for authenticity, as numerous coins with faked (punched-in) stars exist. Many (but not all) of these spurious coins can be detected if they have a doubling at the G of GRANT on the obverse.
this is footnoted to the Swiatek-Breen encyclopedia.
if this is to be believed, then, there is no one conclusive diagnostic, (other than the fact that this particular coin is in a slab that says NTC).
I'm not speaking for the authenticity of the coin in question, but as for the die clash, the star obverse was the first struck of that commem series in both gold and silver. It is then logical to assum that some star obverses without clash exist.
i don't know if that's correct or not, but what Breen and Swiatek say is that the master had the star removed after the "with star" dies were made. your point is well taken though, since it seems that unless the dies clashed before any coins were struck, there would be coins without clash marks.
The star on all real Grant w/Stars has a small bump within it, at the base of the lower right arm of the star. Swaitek has said that this is the easiest and surest way to identify authentic examples.
I do have a Grant w/Star that does not show evidence of clash marks and I will post an image shortly. I do believe that these are very rare. I can bring it to the Santa Clara coin show this week if anyone wants to view it in person.
Scott
edited to add - I don't have an opinion on the coin that started this post. I would want to see it in person. Did anyone ask the seller for and enlargement of the star??
Comments
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I personally believe the STAR on this one's been added (punched) and thus the coin is a fraud.
you've been a member of the forum long enough to have learned that if you want to get a really objective opinion about a coin, it's sometimes best to post only the picture to avoid holder bias. i feel safe in saying that the opinions of the dissenters are based primarily on the holder and not that coin.
JMHO of course, so slam away!! but like Andy and Claus both said, what looks wrong about the coin other than the holder it's in??? please, inquiring minds want to know.
al h.
Mike
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
Mike - Is that true of ALL Grant Stars, or just most of them?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
considering the price of the coin....................
i saw a nice NGC MS65 no star at a show today, much safer!!!
al h.
I've yet to see an authentic Grant with Star that doesn't show evidence of the clash marks I mentioned -- but I have seen dozens of Grant half dollars without the clash marks that obviously had the Star added outside of the mint. An old time collection I purchased last year had not one, but TWO Grant with Stars (minus the clash marks) that were not the real deal. I can't state with 100% certainty that a genuine Grant with Star without clash marks does not exist, but if it does, I've never seen one.
Mike
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
considering the risk of certifying a counterfiet coin, do you think PCGS would refuse to holder a Grant absent the clash?? this seems a bit like proving their are no UFO's!! it's easy enough to show what isn't genuine, yet there appears the possibility of coins with no evidence of die clash may exist.
al h.
Frank
I don't know if PCGS would or not because I don't know for sure if a genuine Grant with Star without the clash marks exists.
Mike
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
Grant with-star half dollars exist in at least three different die states: perfect dies (early), clashed dies (showing the effects of the dies coming together without an intervening planchet), and lapped dies (late state of the dies, repolished to remove clash marks).
he footnotes this passage with a reference to "Grant Star Commemorative Halves- A Study of Die States," by Jerry Bobbe, The Commemorative Trail, Fall 1988.
he continues:
All pieces offered should be checked for authenticity, as numerous coins with faked (punched-in) stars exist. Many (but not all) of these spurious coins can be detected if they have a doubling at the G of GRANT on the obverse.
this is footnoted to the Swiatek-Breen encyclopedia.
if this is to be believed, then, there is no one conclusive diagnostic, (other than the fact that this particular coin is in a slab that says NTC).
z
Live Long and Prospect.
You guys sure know your stuff!
i don't know if that's correct or not, but what Breen and Swiatek say is that the master had the star removed after the "with star" dies were made. your point is well taken though, since it seems that unless the dies clashed before any coins were struck, there would be coins without clash marks.
al h.
I do have a Grant w/Star that does not show evidence of clash marks and I will post an image shortly. I do believe that these are very rare. I can bring it to the Santa Clara coin show this week if anyone wants to view it in person.
Scott
edited to add - I don't have an opinion on the coin that started this post. I would want to see it in person. Did anyone ask the seller for and enlargement of the star??