Updated with pictures-Coin dealer policy on cleaned coins

Mikey · November 7, 2003 5:29AM

I got a $500 34D quarter back in a bb from pcgs. The dealer who sold it offered to try and sell it for me, but he didn't sound too interested in taking it back. I do a fair amount of business with him and think he should provide a refund of exchange.

Is this fair, or am I being unreasonable?

These are the returned coins:

Placid · November 7, 2003 5:31AM

Does he agree it was cleaned? Does he have a return policy?

MrEureka · November 7, 2003 5:32AM

When he sold it to you, did he represent that the coin wasn't cleaned?

Mikey · November 7, 2003 5:35AM

He graded it MS64. Never said anything about it being cleaned.

MacCoin · November 7, 2003 5:35AM

I'm a lucky guy my dealer will refund any coin if it don't come back the grade he sold it for. hes a real stand up guy

Placid · November 7, 2003 5:41AM

If you have never asked his return policy and he dosen't post it anywhere then you should ask before you buy.
Many coin shops do not offer returns for any reason.

MrEureka · November 7, 2003 5:46AM

He graded it MS64.

Lots of coins CORRECTLY graded 64 by the services have been cleaned to some extent.

Mikey · November 7, 2003 5:54AM

I think it's one thing to sell a coin as MS64, and have it come back with a lower grade, because of the subjectivity of grading. If it comes back cleaned, in my opinion, it was defective from the start and he should at least offer an equal exchange.

If he doesn't willingly take it back, I will stop buying from him. I really like this guy, but I'm kind of surprised he's taking this stance, and if I have to twist his arm, it's going to create some animosity, which I don't want either.

Mikey · November 7, 2003 5:55AM

<< He graded it MS64.

Lots of coins CORRECTLY graded 64 by the services have been cleaned to some extent. >>

I don't think PCGS would grade something 64 if it's been cleaned.

LAWMAN · November 7, 2003 6:02AM

Refund is due you. "64" doesn't mean cleaned. "64 cleaned" means cleaned.

Russ · November 7, 2003 6:52AM

<< If it comes back cleaned, in my opinion, it was defective from the start and he should at least offer an equal exchange. >>

A bodybag at PCGS for cleaning doesn't necessarily mean the coin has actually been cleaned. Anybody who submits to them enough will find this out.

Russ, NCNE

MrEureka · November 7, 2003 7:01AM

I don't think PCGS would grade something 64 if it's been cleaned.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on the coin, the degree and method of cleaning, and the biorhythms of the graders.

cointagious · November 7, 2003 7:03AM

you saw the coin before you bought? you had no other agreement in place when you bought? if so, imho, he owes you nothing.
why?
1. learn how to grade for yourself.
2. pcgs offered only an opinion. honest people can and do disagree on the quality of coins every day.

paigowjohnny · November 7, 2003 7:12AM

<< A bodybag at PCGS for cleaning doesn't necessarily mean the coin has actually been cleaned. >>

Actually, I agree !!

Mikey · November 7, 2003 7:39AM

<< 

<< If it comes back cleaned, in my opinion, it was defective from the start and he should at least offer an equal exchange. >>

A bodybag at PCGS for cleaning doesn't necessarily mean the coin has actually been cleaned. Anybody who submits to them enough will find this out.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ,

OK, it's sometimes a subjective appraisal to decide a coin has been cleaned, therefore the possibility of error exists. I'm comfortable with the odds and think that most dealers would consider PCGS's opinions to be correct most of the time. I'll post a picture of the coin when I get it back.

I also told this dealer that it was going to PCGS and he never warned me about this policy. I work in the services business and consider it to be a good business practice to treat the customer as king. Eating a $500 deal in the name of customer service is a reasonable policy for this dealer, especially with a repeat customer like me.

Russ · November 7, 2003 7:43AM

<< Eating a $500 deal in the name of customer service is a reasonable policy for this dealer, especially with a repeat customer like me. >>

Really? And, how far should this policy extend? A week? A month? Six months? A year? Or, just long enough for you to get a third party's opinion about the coin - an opinion that is no more likely to be correct than many experienced dealer's, and might be completely different on a different day.

Russ, NCNE

Mikey · November 7, 2003 7:49AM

If I were a coin dealer and it was a question of customer service, I'd do it once for a customer, and do it gladly. Then, I'd explain to him that I could not do it every time. He's not losing the money, because I expect a store credit, but he'll likely lose a customer.

Russ · November 7, 2003 7:55AM

I just realized that something is completely missing from this discussion.

Mikey,

Do you think the coin is cleaned? I'd guess the answer is no, otherwise you wouldn't have handed over $500 to buy it.

Russ, NCNE

Mikey · November 7, 2003 7:58AM

<< you saw the coin before you bought? you had no other agreement in place when you bought? if so, imho, he owes you nothing.
why?
1. learn how to grade for yourself.
2. pcgs offered only an opinion. honest people can and do disagree on the quality of coins every day. >>

Quality is one thing. Cleaning is another in my opinion. If he had said the coin's MS65, and it came back MS64, I would not have a problem. Based on PCGS's opinion, it's very likely that the coin was cleaned. I compare it to buying a car with an odometer tampered by a previous owner. If you sold someone a car that had been tampered with by a previous owner and the buyer came back to you after discovering the truth, would you refund his money or not? Wouldn't you be at fault, as an expert on used cars for not discovering the problem?

The dealer owes me nothing. However, I have every right to ask him to correct the situation in an amiable manner. I've been a good customer of his, and brought him new customers, like TJ.

JoyofCollecting · November 7, 2003 8:07AM

I bought a $1,400, raw coin from one of my favorite dealers about three weeks ago at a coin show. Beautiful coin...and I concurred with his grading of MS62....thought it might even go MS63.

Sent it into ANACS and it came back Unc details / AU55 Cleaned.

There are non-numismatic reasons that I want my nicer coins in non-problem slabs. I still don't think the coin has been cleaned. He still doesn't think it has been cleaned. This guy is an expert in this particular series and has many published articles. I actually trust his opinion on this coin more that the guys at ANACS. And, I think I probably studied the coin about 20 times as long as the guys at ANACS did. But....there are non-numismatic reasons I want my nicer coins in problem-free slabs.

However, he has a written policy that states that he will refund any raw coin purchase that comes back less than his grade from one of the major grading services.

I mailed the coin back to him last week and will get my refund from him at a show tomorrow. I have spent quite a few thousands of dollars at this dealer's table...and you can bet that I will certainly spend more than the refunded amount tomorrow at his table.

I think this is a business issue...not a coin issue. I think he sales a lot more raw coins at higher prices because of his policy and grading skills. He pays very solid money for coins within his speciality and usually has a mark-up of 15% to 20% of what he pays. I know, I've bought and sold a lot of coins with him. I think he makes a lot more money with these policies than without them. But that is his business decision...other dealers choose to make different business decisions that that in their judgement are more profitable.

MrEureka · November 7, 2003 8:08AM

I compare it to buying a car with an odometer tampered by a previous owner.

It might be more accurate to compare it to buying a car that has been washed.

Edited to say that tampering with an odometer is equivalent to re-engraving a coin.

Russ · November 7, 2003 8:17AM

Mikey,

Again, do you think the coin is cleaned?

Russ, NCNE

Mikey · November 7, 2003 9:11AM

Russ,

I noticed that in certain light there were some hairlines on the coin, but I do not have an experienced eye in these matters. I have trusted this dealer and pay asking price for his coins, knowing full well that they are prices above what I've paid on ebay from large dealers.

darktone · November 7, 2003 9:14AM

<< If he doesn't willingly take it back, I will stop buying from him. I really like this guy, but I'm kind of surprised he's taking this stance, and if I have to twist his arm, it's going to create some animosity, which I don't want either. >>

Maybe just be honest and tell him something to this effect and offer somesort of compromise? mike

MrEureka · November 7, 2003 9:24AM

Mikey - If you send it in one more time and it grades 64, will you be happy with the purchase?

Mikey · November 7, 2003 9:33AM

<< Mikey - If you send it in one more time and it grades 64, will you be happy with the purchase? >>

Sure I would, but why would I do that?

MrEureka · November 7, 2003 9:35AM

Sure I would, but why would I do that?

Same reason as when you sent it in the first time: It might work.

Russ · November 7, 2003 9:40AM

<< Sure I would, but why would I do that? >>

Same reason I sent a "environmental damage" proof Frankie in again.

Same reason I sent a "cleaned" 1966 SMS Kennedy in again.

Same reason I sent a "altered surfaces" Two Cent Piece in again.

Here's the startling news Mikey: PCGS is frequently wrong.

Russ, NCNE

darktone · November 7, 2003 9:45AM

Mikey can you post a picture of the coin?

MS68 · November 7, 2003 9:48AM

Mikey- I just want to know one thing. If you had sent the coin in and it came back a 65, would you have rushed over to the dealer and given him a check for the difference of the added value?

Bobk · November 7, 2003 10:09AM

You know when I first read your post I thought yes, thats fair. Now after I read all the other responses, I dont know. There are two sides to every coin.

I belive it will be short sighted of him, the dealer, not to come to some kind of term other than, TS. Good luck. Bob

Dog97 · November 7, 2003 10:11AM

Plain & simple; if you wanted a $500 34D in a PCGS slab then you should have bought a $500 34D already in a PCGS slab.
If the dealer sells you cleaned crap as problem free material and won't stand behind his product then he is a sleazebag and you shouldn't buy anymore high priced raw coins from him. Really you shouldn't be buying any high priced raw coins from ANYBODY.

Mikey · November 7, 2003 10:48AM

<< Sure I would, but why would I do that?

Same reason as when you sent it in the first time: It might work. >>

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Do you think that I knew it was cleaned as somehow would sneak it through?

dollardude · November 7, 2003 10:50AM

I think you should get the benefit of the doubt and get a refund. However, always make sure the return policy and grading policy is understood up front before making a purchase. I wanted to chime in here to give a small plug to Rare Coins of New Hampshire. They GUARANTEE that their raw coins will be slabbed by PCGS as they advertise. I have slabbed two of their raw coins that I have purchased from them in the past, and one graded AU50 (they said AU), and the other graded G06 (they said G). Most large reputable dealers will take care of any problems for you. It's the smaller ones that can be questionable.

Mikey · November 7, 2003 10:51AM

<< Mikey- I just want to know one thing. If you had sent the coin in and it came back a 65, would you have rushed over to the dealer and given him a check for the difference of the added value? >>

No, and I wouldn't ask for compensation if it came back 63. The fact is, it's a defective coin, according to the best grading company there is. Do you want to keep arguing this point?

Mikey · November 7, 2003 10:52AM

<< I think you should get the benefit of the doubt and get a refund. However, always make sure the return policy and grading policy is understood up front before making a purchase. I wanted to chime in here to give a small plug to Rare Coins of New Hampshire. They GUARANTEE that their raw coins will be slabbed by PCGS as they advertise. I have slabbed two of their raw coins that I have purchased from them in the past, and one graded AU50 (they said AU), and the other graded G06 (they said G). Most large reputable dealers will take care of any problems for you. It's the smaller ones that can be questionable. >>

Do they sell on line or ebay? New Hampshire is a little out of the way.

Mikey · November 7, 2003 11:01AM

<< 

<< Sure I would, but why would I do that? >>

Same reason I sent a "environmental damage" proof Frankie in again.

Same reason I sent a "cleaned" 1966 SMS Kennedy in again.

Same reason I sent a "altered surfaces" Two Cent Piece in again.

Here's the startling news Mikey: PCGS is frequently wrong.

Russ, NCNE >>

Are you always this helpful?

Russ · November 7, 2003 11:02AM

<< it's a defective coin, according to the best grading company there is. >>

Are you new?

Hey Mikey,

This is also a defective coin according to the best grading company there is:

Bodybag for environmental damage. Re-submitted it the same day I got it back. Notice that plastic around it?

You looked at your coin at length. The dealer looked at your coin at length. PCGS looked at it for six whole seconds.

Russ, NCNE

MrEureka · November 7, 2003 11:04AM

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Do you think that I knew it was cleaned as somehow would sneak it through?

Mikey - You are missing the point. Cleaning does not make a coin worthless. Sometimes, cleaning actually helps the coin. Often, especially when done improperly, it makes the coin worse - sometimes ungradeable, other times not. Many times, a lightly and improperly cleaned coin crosses the desk of a grader and he has to make a decision as to whether or not the "cleaning defect" is so bad that it should not be graded. OFTEN, IT IS A SUBJECTIVE CALL THAT CAN GO EITHER WAY.

I understand that you are not an expert grader. If you were - trust me on this - you would absolutely understand that there are borderline cases. You would understand how PCGS could BB a coin one day and grade it the next. You would also understand that your dealer - even if he is and expert grader that never makes a mistake - could expect PCGS to grade a coin and be wrong. Doesn't mean that he was wrong about the coin, only that he was wrong about what PCGS would do on a given day. The bottom line? Learn from the experience and LET IT GO.

coinkat · November 7, 2003 11:12AM

I suggest that you take this offline and try and resolve this privately.

Mikey · November 7, 2003 11:13AM

<< That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Do you think that I knew it was cleaned as somehow would sneak it through?

Mikey - You are missing the point. Cleaning does not make a coin worthless. Sometimes, cleaning actually helps the coin. Often, especially when done improperly, it makes the coin worse - sometimes ungradeable, other times not. Many times, a lightly and improperly cleaned coin crosses the desk of a grader and he has to make a decision as to whether or not the "cleaning defect" is so bad that it should not be graded. OFTEN, IT IS A SUBJECTIVE CALL THAT CAN GO EITHER WAY.

I understand that you are not an expert grader. If you were - trust me on this - you would absolutely understand that there are borderline cases. You would understand how PCGS could BB a coin one day and grade it the next. You would also understand that your dealer - even if he is and expert grader that never makes a mistake - could expect PCGS to grade a coin and be wrong. Doesn't mean that he was wrong about the coin, only that he was wrong about what PCGS would do on a given day. The bottom line? Learn from the experience and LET IT GO. >>

It's not worthless, it's worth 25 cents.

If I posted this coin for sale on ebay and said this coin was body bagged by PCGS as cleaned, I'm fairly certain it would not sell for as much as if I said nothing. Now, I could resubmit it to PCGS or send it to NGC, however I have a lot of other coins to have graded and limited funds. Once is enough for me. If the status of the coin is borderline, then why wouldn't the dealer give me a store credit for it? He isn't losing anything.

PTVETTER · November 7, 2003 12:20PM

Did you have a chance to examine the quarter in person yourself?

If you did. Then you bought the quarter sight seen and should have passed on the coin if you even though it was cleaned.

If you did NOT see the quarter the dealer should refund you money.

Mikey · November 7, 2003 12:33PM

I saw the coin, trusted the dealer, told him I'd send it in. If it's cleaning is borderline or questionable then he can sell it to someone else and give me a credit. Since he's a professional coin dealer and probably knows better than I that the coin WAS cleaned, then he deceived me intentionally and should refund my money.

The only case I can think of where I should eat any part of this is when neither the dealer or myself recognized it as cleaned, PCGS saw something we didn't and bagged it. It's value is diminished and both the dealer and I should share the loss.

It was helpful having your feedback.

Thanks

Bochiman · November 7, 2003 1:03PM

I'll offer an opinion as a non-seller and a buyer...

Mikey PAID for the dealer's expertise on the coin...you can bet he paid a markup. That is for the dealer's expertise (and cost of doing business). The dealer didn't call it UNC, he gave it a grade. How many coins with a grade are considered cleaned? (yes, some cleaning is good and restorative when done right, but that is splitting hairs in this case and I think everyone knows that).

If the cleaning shows enough to get the coin bodybagged, then it was harsh.

The dealer should take the coin back and give a refund unless he stated right up front that he knows nothing about grading coins and that he learned from ACG.
Else, he should state in a policy that he has a non-moveable X # of days for a refund, if any. If he doesn't state this, and a coin he sells with HIS PROFESSIONAL grading opinion comes back from a leading TPG in numismatics then he should either learn to grade cleaned coins properly, give the refund, state that he can't tell cleaned coins, or suggest that the coin be resent to PCGS or sent to ANACS or NGC for another opinion or retry. IMHO, a good dealer would do that, and would offer to foot the cost on this submission.
If it came back MS6x, then case would be closed, IMHO. If it came back cleaned again, then the dealer is either screwing Mikey over (knew it was cleaned, found out Mikey couldn't tell, and made a profit that he wouldn't make selling the coin as cleaned), or the dealer can't grade cleaned coins.

What I have noticed is that people that are dealers (and people that are collectors but who also sell a lot of coins and should probably be considered a dealer in some aspect) are slamming on Mikey and really sticking up for the dealer.

Remember guys, 2 sides of each story. We've heard Mikey's. No one has yet suggested the dealer was incompetent in his grading (which may be true) or just wanting to get rid of lingering inventory (which may be true as well) as he can.

I don't think PCGS is perfect, but, until anyone slamming on them can consistently and visibly grade better (and if so, they pay well, so that may be a good job...or start your own company), then, I think they are a good indicator. Yes, they make mistakes. Good for the people who are good enough to catch them and get them corrected (resent).

But, everyone should remember this is not a buy from ebay......it was bought from a dealer Mikey has dealt with before from the sounds of it. So, everyone saying he shouldn't get a refund, or that he should get better in his own grading, or that the dealer should be excused on this......is that how YOU treat customers?
Seriously?

What would you guys do if a coin you sold someone came back cleaned? Would you want to work out a deal? Would you try to help the customer (Mikey)?
Would you suggest resending it and maybe picking up the tab if it cames back cleaned again (and maybe take the coin back, or offer to with a restocking fee?)?

I would hope that any dealer I have worked with, and who wanted me to keep working with them, would help me find some equitable/fair resolution.

I would think that:
A) Refund

Partial refund (restocking fee)
C) Paying to have it resubmitted
D) Paying to have it submitted to another TPGC (ANACS or NGC...not the others)
E) Admitting that he (dealer) sucks at telling cleaned coins

are all fair solutions (there may be more) for showing a customer you appreciate their business and there may have been a mistake.

Most of the "solutions" I have read here are more like "if you buy it unslabbed, you take your chance and you pay the price for your tuition of learning in numismatics".
To me, that is the same as buying on ebay.

Mikey.....best of luck to you.....maybe you should ask the dealer what he would do if that happened or what he thinks is fair (that you paid him for his expert opinion and another expert (or a couple...remember, 2 people have to agree on the grade/BB, right?...for PCGS) disagrees)).

Ron

mrcommem · November 7, 2003 1:13PM

Hello Mikey,

The solution for you is to have the dealer send the coin in for encapsulation for you to your preferred service. You must supply the money for the submission of course. If the dealer will not do this it is time to pass on the coin. If the coin comes back as MS64 you have a deal, if it comes back anything else- no deal.

Mikey · November 12, 2003 12:13PM

ttt

Coinosaurus · November 12, 2003 1:05PM

In the interests of good business, the dealer should do a refund. But, I do not believe he has an ethical responsibility to do so in this case (there was no stated return policy). You may have told him you were sending it in, but did he agree to take it back if it did not slab?

If this is the most expensive lesson you learn in collecting, you are still doing OK. And I would still do business with this guy if he has good coins, just protect yourself in the future.

Hey, if you should "protect" yourself when buying coins, does that mean PCGS is the preferred "condom" of numismatists

michael · November 12, 2003 3:42PM

dealer should give you store credit!!

michael

also i like dogs accessment

Dog97
Master Collector

Posts: 9909
Joined: Feb 2001
Friday November 07, 2003 8:11 PM

Plain & simple; if you wanted a $500 34D in a PCGS slab then you should have bought a $500 34D already in a PCGS slab.
If the dealer sells you cleaned crap as problem free material and won't stand behind his product then he is a sleazebag and you shouldn't buy anymore high priced raw coins from him. Really you shouldn't be buying any high priced raw coins from ANYBODY.

-------------------------
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

hoardmonster · November 12, 2003 6:02PM

They don't look cleaned to me. I'm definitely not an expert at these things, but on some coins it's very obvious. Not on these though, at least not to me.

JoyofCollecting · November 12, 2003 9:40PM

It's unbelievably obvious that those planchets were cleaned very long ago. I'm guessing about 60 to 70 years ago.

Boy are eye and expurt ur whut?

Goldog63 · November 12, 2003 10:37PM

The picts don't show a lot. I say keep looking for a trustworthy dealer. Take some coins around to other shops for opinions. Always try to buy something as a jesture of good faith. You'll be able to tell the honest, friendly ones from the cheating, hostile ones. Grizzled and grumpy ones may be OK tho

Updated with pictures-Coin dealer policy on cleaned coins

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