I will never again send in coins for crossover

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 9:11AM

1 21402593 1898-S S$1 USA DNC
2 21402594 1945-D 10C USA DNC
3 21402595 1886 S$1 USA DNC
4 21402596 1881-S S$1 USA DNC
5 21402597 1880-S S$1 USA MS67

#1 is a coin that is in a ms66 NGC holder with a slightly weak strike and fields like a ms68. Very angry on this one.
#2 This is the wildly toned Mercury at the bottom of this thread that is in a NGC ms67* holder. No question ms67 coin
#3 this one is a ms67 NGC holder and it to me was a 50/50 shot at cross
#4 This is a ms66DPL ngc holder coin that is a true 66DMPL. Mad about this one too!
#5 This coin had a shot at UPGRADING to a ms68. Great reverse rainbow cresent toning.

These were sent in on the 7 day $50 a coin service. They got them on 11-4-03 and grades posted 11-7-03.

The only reason I sent these in for crossover is for coin #1. This coin if cracked out MIGHT because of the somewhat weak strike MIGHT come back ms65 and I would lose a bunch of money on. I always preach sending coins in raw and this submission will prove my point.

Anyone want to bet the Mercury below will come back ms67 if submitted raw?

eagle7 · November 7, 2003 9:15AM

I can relate to your PAIN! I sent a 1900 twenty lib in 64, a 1901 twenty lib in 63, and a 2.5 Indian in 62 in three weeks ago for regrades. I thought the 2.5 and the 1901 were ok, and the 1900 is such a big jump in price I didnt count on it to go up. None of them upgraded. Oh well. I put in a strong bid on a PCGS 64 2.5 indian the next day. From now on I will buy the grade I want instead of trying to upgrade to it. It will save me a lot of money.

Russ · November 7, 2003 9:15AM

<< Anyone want to bet the Mercury below will come back ms67 if submitted raw? >>

More likely it would come back in a bodybag, which is probably the reason it was a DNC on this submission.

Russ, NCNE

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 9:19AM

<< More likely it would come back in a bodybag, which is probably the reason it was a DNC on this submission >>

there is NO reason that coin should be bodybagged for ANY reason

Russ · November 7, 2003 9:20AM

<< there is NO reason that coin should be bodybagged for ANY reason >>

Since when does that matter at PCGS? Crack it and send it raw. Bet you a buck they bodybag it.

Russ, NCNE

Placid · November 7, 2003 9:23AM

My only cross at same grade or higher all 3 coins crossed. No morgan's though.
That was in september.
Only one out of 5 is pretty bad

DCAMFranklin · November 7, 2003 9:23AM

You mean they screwed you??

tradedollarnut · November 7, 2003 9:25AM

I predicted privately that the 98-S would not cross due to the 'look' of the luster. Sorry.

But yeah, you'll submit again. It's like playing the lottery - once you do it, you're hooked.

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 9:29AM

<< But yeah, you'll submit again. It's like playing the lottery >>

the luster is fine on the coin, just when I photo coins the luster looks funny sometimes.

I have a $6000 standing offer on the coin in a PCGS slab and only $5000 in the NGC slab. I MIGHT roll the dice on this one again.

Placid · November 7, 2003 9:31AM

Change the title to "I will again send in coins for crossover".

Louis · November 7, 2003 9:32AM

<< Change the title to "I will again send in coins for crossover".

>>

Clankeye · November 7, 2003 9:33AM

I'll give you $7000 for it in a Hallmark slab.

Clankeye

Sorry, don't mean to make light of your situation

TAP444 · November 7, 2003 10:04AM

I bet they would bag the merc for at the 1st time and slab it the second time
tim

zenny · November 7, 2003 10:06AM

the dime is absolutely beyond question grade/toning wise, having seen it in person (and being the underbidder). the others i can't vouch for...

z

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 10:14AM

Placid
yes you are probably right

no problem clank

tim

maybe since they already have gotten $50 from me on the dime they would slab it the next time grrrrrrrrr

Zenny

still a cool coin!

coinkat · November 7, 2003 10:16AM

jbsteven:

I am sorry the crossovers did not work. This may not make you feel any better, but the coin should be selling point and focus of the transaction which motivates a collector to buy it... not the grade or opinion of a TPG. If NGC grades the coin MS 67, personally, I think that is enough. There is a subjective component associated with grading and personally I still think that subjective component is the key at this lofty state of preservation.

Dog97 · November 7, 2003 10:35AM

#1 The 98-S was extremely weak struck for a 66 and if you want a coin to cross you got to pick the PQ coins, not the mediocre average ones. The weak strike is a problem that makes it a poor cross candidate.
#3 You thought it had a 50% chance of not crossing and you were right. Congrats!!
#4 Sounds like just an average DMPL. I wouldn't have cracked it either, probably would have come back as 65 DMPL or 66 PL. DMPL's are tricky anyway.
#5 YOU say it is a 68 but it's only 67, darn, one of you is wrong.
And no, the toned Merc won't grade 67 if submitted raw because it may have pretty color but it's too beat the hell up for a 67 and the strike isn't the strongest in the world.
Just my opinion.

fivecents · November 7, 2003 10:43AM

<< And no, the toned Merc won't grade 67 if submitted raw because it may have pretty color but it's too beat the hell up for a 67 and the strike isn't the strongest in the world. >>

Dog97... That merc looks clean as a whistle to me. I think the toning makes it look beat up.

Deadhorse · November 7, 2003 10:48AM

I've seen that Merc in person and it looked just fine in the slab it was in. Nothing wrong with the white plastic surrounding it at all.

Dog97 · November 7, 2003 10:50AM

<<<Dog97... That merc looks clean as a whistle to me. I think the toning makes it look beat up.>>>
I see scrapes on the front of the neck, back of the neck & base of the neck which look to have broke the surface of the coin and looks like some toned over hits on the chin & face. It's decent looking & pretty but I don't think it would 7.

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 10:51AM

coinkat

I agree the coin should be the selling point but most dealers will tell you that PCGS coins sell for more $$$ and quicker. The standing offer of $1000 more for the 98s in the PCGS holder was not my offer but a large dealer.

Dog

you are very wrong on the Merc and that is MHO.
If the 80s is a 67 and one of us is wrong then I guess EVERY time a coin is graded by PCGS then the grade will be the same EVERY time. Now that's funny

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 10:52AM

deadhorse

I wanted to put it into my PCGS set. Thats the reason for crossing it.

Loki · November 7, 2003 11:04AM

<< 

<< there is NO reason that coin should be bodybagged for ANY reason >>

Since when does that matter at PCGS? Crack it and send it raw. Bet you a buck they bodybag it.

Russ, NCNE >>

Gee Russ, I can tell you are pretty confident with that big bet.

stman · November 7, 2003 11:08AM

Maybe you ought to dip them first next time.

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 11:10AM

especially the mercury dime

Baley · November 7, 2003 12:38PM

I have a $6000 standing offer on the coin in a PCGS slab and only $5000 in the NGC slab. I MIGHT roll the dice on this one again.

well there you go. you were gambling, and this time, the dice came up snake eyes.

the above quote kind of conflicts with the title of the thread, doesn't it?

don't worry, you'll send them back. you're bound to bet on a winning horse, um i mean coin, nest time.

you're due, right?

BigE · November 7, 2003 12:54PM

PCGS won't add anything to for color of that Merc., perhaps Ngc did and rightly so---------BigE

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 1:16PM

man, you guys are rough

BigE · November 7, 2003 1:25PM

I have 4 nice commems. over there now, soon to be graded. I am hoping for a nice bashing also when I post the results. so feel free to jump right in

-----------------------BigE

Android · November 7, 2003 1:27PM

Jason,

Is the coin worth 5-6k raw?

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 1:30PM

<< Is the coin worth 5-6k raw? >>

I assume to someone it is. To the person who already made me 2 offers I guess it is not. I will probably sell it in the holder it is in and move on to the next coin.

I have been wanting a 67DMPL..........

DMWJR · November 7, 2003 1:32PM

I will never again send in coins for crossover

Famous last words! Oh, how I know your feeling on this. I went about 1 for 10 in 2002. This year I am 0 for 0.

segoja · November 7, 2003 1:33PM

Here's my theory:

PCGS has been extremely tough recently to virtually everyone on the board. I'm a tried and true PCGS person. I submitted my first batch to NGC in over 6-7 years this past weekend.

2 1885-S one NGC 64 hoping for a 65, one PCI ms63 hoping for a 64

1 1879-S Raw, hoping for a 66

1 1890-P PCGS MS64 hoping for a 65

1 1883-CC PCGS MS64 hoping for a 65

Each of these coins even at the discounted NGC $ is worth more than full price PCGS at the lower grade.

If NGC hits, they will certainly get more of my business, particularly when PCGS is not even close to the right grade.

The thoery is that PCGS uses the reduced demand to get caught up. They get caught up and loosen up 1/2 a point, and we all start back with PCGS.

The real question is when does this happen??

Legend · November 7, 2003 7:39PM

Hey, stuff happens. I had a $25,000.00 (I say that because I don't want to say the date or denomination) coin that was an NGC MS65. I knew the coin should cross. I sent it in at Long Beach. No go.

I immediately sold it to one of the sharpest graders around. He cracked it out. Viola! Its now in a PCGS MS65 holder.

Am I mad? No. I just didn't have the kahunas to crack it.

Sometimes, they can not see the true greatness of a coin through the thickness of the NGC holder. Its like a game. You ARE far better off craking out a coin than crossing it. PCGS even publishes the numbers to support that (I think they are at 28% again).

The secret to success, try to know the "look" they expect. Its not a matter of how you grade, its what they expect-after all, the grading is done to their standards.

I too will probably be shamed by DNC's this weekend. I'm going to the PCGS Trade and Grade show. Why do I try? Its like gambling and I'm either stupid or addicted!

Placid · November 7, 2003 8:46PM

<< I'm going to the PCGS Trade and Grade show. >>

Where is that at?

Legend · November 7, 2003 8:52PM

The PCGS show is an Invitational Show held in Las Vegas. NGC just held theirs in LV last week.

The concept is fabulous. The services don't get as jammed up with submissions as they do at major shows (meaning they examine the coins a bit better), and dealers can trade among themselves in a more relaxed atmosphere.

This is the first PCGS event I'm going to. Last week we did the NGC show and were quite happy with everything.

BigMoose · November 7, 2003 9:07PM

Jason, this sort of thing happens to anyone who submits coins. You are going to get hammered every so often! I just hope this is not a bad omen for onsight grading at the Baltimore Convention in December as I have several neat items that are going in for grading, regrades, and crossovers!!

puff · November 7, 2003 9:40PM

<< <<<Dog97... That merc looks clean as a whistle to me. I think the toning makes it look beat up.>>>
I see scrapes on the front of the neck, back of the neck & base of the neck which look to have broke the surface of the coin and looks like some toned over hits on the chin & face. It's decent looking & pretty but I don't think it would 7. >>

"Ditto"

tsacch · November 7, 2003 9:48PM

Did they buy you dinner or at least liquir you up before they effed you?

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 10:17PM

<< I will never again send in coins for crossover >>

Ok, until the next time

jamesfsm · November 7, 2003 10:19PM

Legend said it best.

PCGS likes a certain "look."

They like white coins and toned coins where the toning is not heavy. Luster factors in high there too. NGC tends to go for "eye appeal" and perceived marketability; heavier toning is often OK. ANACS grades technically (number of "hits," luster, strike). ANACS IMO is a better "fit" to cross at PCGS.

I too don't think the Merc will easily get to PCGS MS67.

jbsteven · November 7, 2003 10:21PM

Funny thing about the picture of the Mercury above is that the picture does not show any nicks but you guys can judge that coin and say it has marks on it.

jamesfsm · November 7, 2003 10:27PM

Jason said something else that is important.

Part of the plastic importance is liquidity. PCGS plastic is the most liquid so many collectors only will buy PCGS. Many dealers have told me stories of a great NGC coin that could only be sold if switched to PCGS plastic. I had an ANACS MS62PL Bust Half where a prospective buyer wanted PCGS plastic only and did not care about ANACS's coveted "PL" designation. It's now PCGS MS62 with no PL designation, although the coin is prooflike. PCGS is important to many, many collectors. I rather like their Bust Haf grading at PCGS and PCGS has a nicer looking slab than NGC. NGC's Bust Half grading is quite inconsistent from era to era in my view.

BTW, if NGC bought ICG's slab design, then they'd have a nice slab. SEGS is a nice looking slab too IMO.

Fairlaneman · November 7, 2003 10:33PM

I see no hits on the Merc Dime. What is seen is a apparant weak strike signified by the broken nose effect shown in the picture. My experience with taking hundreds of pictures of Mercs does bring the thought to mind that the weak strike just may be the camera angle. IMHO the coin would have to be seen to make a decision whether it is a 67 or not.

Ken

EVillageProwler · November 7, 2003 10:38PM

PCGS plastic is the most liquid so many collectors only will buy PCGS.

This is circular reasoning, which unfortunately doesn't mean that it's not also true...

Liquidity is determined by the buyers, but the buyers will only buy PCGS slabs because they think it is more liquid? That means that buyers determine liquidity which then determine what the buyers will buy which then determines liquidity which ...

EVP

EVillageProwler · November 7, 2003 10:42PM

It's not at all clear to me if I see any hits on that Merc. The "beat up" look could just be due to the natural way patina developed over the surfaces of that coin. Most toned coins don't have a perfectly smooth layer of patina unless it is very thick and dark.

Also, don't forget that a Merc is a very small coin. When blown up like that, you can easily see exaggerated "problems" that in actuality would have no impact other than knocking the coin down from the vaunted PF/MS70 grade.

EVP

ANACONDA · November 7, 2003 11:12PM

I wish i had a crystal ball....one of the things i would like to see is whether or not some ex-grader ever comes forward and answers all those questions we want answers to....

I will never again send in coins for crossover

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