Seems like this all comes down to people not wanting to pay a 10X or more differential for a coin in a grade one notch higher. I think this applies to all coins, modern or classic. I will gladly go down to MS66 from 67 if it means I pay $400 rather than $10000 for one less hiarline. I think the moderns take more of a beating because of the less intrinsic value of the coins in general.
<< <i>The ironic thing is that he's a Lincoln collector. I am assuming based on the user name. Hmm. Very interesting indeed? I guess every 1955 Lincoln cent looks the same. >>
You know what they say about people that assume. Doubled dies are cool coins, 55, 69, 70, 72 and even the 95. 1963 cents are not, and modern proofs even less.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Show me examples of where people have WAY overpaid for a "classic coin" and I'll join the bashing club ...
As a matter of fact, here's bash. I've never been a fan of the nickel three cent piece. To me the design is dull and unappealing. For my collection, I’ve never paid more than $30 for one.
There’s my classic coin bash.
Inside the business I once sold a very attractive (for a nickel three cent piece) 1865 in PCGS PR-65, Cameo for a mid 4 figure amount. It was the capstone coin for a collector who was building a complete set of Proof nickel three cent pieces.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<laughing> look, we're all crazy for paying more than face value for coins! Just ask my wife!
it's just that some are crazier than others.
personally, the most expensive coins i own are scarce in any grade... less than 1000 known on ALL grades. and some had less than 1000 minted and fewer than 100 are known. There might be a few dozen nicer than my coin but there are also only a couple hundred worse.
Of the coins in my type set that have several millions minted and millions are still known in all conditions, none of MY coins are among even the 10% finest known. I am perfectly content with one of the lesser, but still very nice, coins.
I understand that different people have different collecting priorities and that their Ike dollars are almost perfect, while my BU and Proof set is only slightly better than average. I would certainly never "bash" them, except to say, for that kind of money, I would instead buy something a little more interesting to me, personally, such as an early US coin with a draped bust on the front.
<< <i>Newmismatist: Excellent post, though there are some flawed assumptions. The greatest of which is that memorial cents are in high demand. Five years ago there were virtually no collectors of these coins. Even today you'll find many dozens of people who collect the pre- 1959 cents before finding one who collects the later. True, I'm noy counting the many people who collect these from pocket change. While these are real collectors collecting real coins they have no effect on the market until they actually buy a coin.
<< <i>
Cladking - Thanks for the compliment. Hovever, I think you're incorrect that there is no demand for Lincoln Memorial cents - there's 59 Registry sets on the PCGS basic Lincoln Memorial Circulation Registry site, there's another 37 LM Registry sets in the circulation "variety" Registry set category (those are just the registry set collectors) and for the Proofs there are 56 Basic Proof LM registry set collectors (Including Stewart Blay who is probably one of the most discerning Lincoln collectors out there) and 33 Proof variety LM registry sets. I haven't checked lately, but I would guess this is more than IHC registry set collectors, either proof or circulation strikes. There are probably thousands of non Registry LM collectors, many of whom also collect the wheaties. Lincoln pennies are w/o doubt the most widely collected US coin series - with the recent US Mint promaotion of State Quarters, they may be 2nd, but Lincoln pennies has the strongest collector base of any single series in US coins. AS far as getting them from pocket change - yes & no you can pick out Unc Lincolns from pocket change the same as I did in the 50's when I was collecting them - you can also go to the Bank & get wrapped Unc rolls & pick the nicest 1 or 2 from a mint roll if you want. But there are lots of LM penny collectors. As far as not having any efffect on the market price of these coins there are 2 factors - the grading of "TOP POP" coins and at least 2 people who want that coin - If you read my comments you will note that NN would have had an under-bidder on every coin he "bought" for his set. THis is not just some dealer puttin a stupid price on his coin -its 2 people both trying to buy that "TOP POP" coin. Remember, that 1963 Pr70DCam had 2 people trying to buy it - if only one person wanted it does anyone here honestly believe that it would have sold for $39,100? And IF you took that coin (or any of those other 46 coins I used in my example) out of its plastic holder - what are any of them worth raw? In other words: Is our intrepid NN paying for the coin or for the paper insert with the grade opinion? LMCs are a real collectible series of coins - paper opinions are not.
<< <i>Modern coins are a FAR larger field than merely proof cents. There are varieties (including three major proof cents), there are eight different series of regular issue coins (And 25 states quarters), There are numerous commems and special issues, they have been struck in 10 different metallic compositions including three clads, there are three separate series of bullion coins and a series which wasn't monetized.
<< <i>
Cladking - I agree completely & if someone wants to spend the time, I bet you would find that many of these other varieties are equally over-priced for whatever particular series you wanted to examine - I think I've seen some Pr70DCam SQs at $4-6K - another rare coin? or a paper insert with an opinion as to the coins grade? Any different than the one's in the sealed mint proof sets? NN only managed to spend $141,429 for his 46 coins - If he had been "Lucky enough to find the 1964 Pr70DCam (Pop 1) and the 1998, 99 & 2000-S Pr70Dcams (all Pop 1 coins) he easily could have spent another $25-50K, just for those 4 coins - so the Top Pop set is actually closer to $200K. How about when you add in the Jefferson, Roosies, Wash Quarters JFKs, Ikes, SBAs, Sacs & SQs? Now what - I'm cetainly not going to check the prices for the top pop coins for these series, but if NN can spend $200K for 46 LMCs, he probably could spend 4 times that if he blindly purchased only the top pop coins for all of thoses series also - even if he limited himself to just those minted since 1965. What about the circulation strikes? How much more for those top pop coins? And in this area, there probably really are some condition rarities.
<< <i>High grade proof cents truly are rare coins.
<< <i>
Cladking this is not true - they are artificially preceived as rare because so few are graded, but only because so few of the total population have been graded. And, grading these "top pop" coins must be a bit difficult, as the 68s, 69s and 70s essentiall all look alike - the same as many of the non-graded ones look in their mint sealed cases. Try this: - get 50 high grade coins (same series & not the mistakes that are obvious mis-grades), cover the grades so you can't tell what the paper insert says & show them to 10 of the best graders in the business - Do you think they could accurately & consistently tell you which are the 69s & which are the 70s? - but wait - limit them to the 10-20 seconds that the graders give each coin, then what kind of spread would you get? - there's all sorts of variations to determine the consistency of the graders, but for sure, we'll never know because I don't think either of the major services would ever allow their graders to be publically tested as to their ability to accurately re-grade these coins.
<< <i> Who would have thought five years ago that it would ever be possible to spend $140,000 on a set of these? >>
My point exactly! The better question is: Why would any one spend $140,000 on a set of these? (and you could substitute any number of different series (Roosies, Ikes, SQs etc. etc) with these same inexplicable prices for "set of these" and have exactly the same question.)
Collect coins, not paper inserts with numbers.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Newmismatist: It's hardly fair or likely accurate to just assume that anyone who pays a lot of money for a modern is interested in only the plastic. There is a great deal of ev- idence that this is not normally the case.
You say that the total value of all the modern pop tops is large with an implication that it's in excess of $500,000. What do you think the total value of all the classic pop tops would be? There are dozens of the classics which are worth $500,000!!!! The total value would simply dwarf the total value of the moderns. It there some level which you think you'd be more comfortable with? If so how would you propose to achieve that level?
I didn't realize that there were so many registry sets of the later Lincolns. This is certainly encouraging, but still it must be remembered that a much higher percentage of modern col- lectors are seeking the high grades simply because they are affordable. The high grades they are being collected in much more leads to being registered- - there are lots of MS-63 and AU wheatie sets which simply are not registered.
"Newmismatist: It's hardly fair or likely accurate to just assume that anyone who pays a lot of money for a modern is interested in only the plastic. There is a great deal of evidence that this is not normally the case."
I'll let Newmismatist answer for himself but I don't think it's necessarily a matter of someone spending a lot of money for a modern that renders that purchase mainly a purchase of plastic. In my mind it's more a matter of the 20X ~ 100X premium paid for a number on the slab that's one point higher then the number on the next lower grade renders it a purchase of plastic (IMHO). It's either paying for the plastic or paying to avoid ".." (my new shorthand for miniscule marks). In either case I think it demonstrates a poor value judgment.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
<< <i>"Newmismatist: It's hardly fair or likely accurate to just assume that anyone who pays a lot of money for a modern is interested in only the plastic. There is a great deal of evidence that this is not normally the case."
I'll let Newmismatist answer for himself but I don't think it's necessarily a matter of someone spending a lot of money for a modern that renders that purchase mainly a purchase of plastic. In my mind it's more a matter of the 20X ~ 100X premium paid for a number on the slab that's one point higher then the number on the next lower grade renders it a purchase of plastic (IMHO). It's either paying for the plastic or paying to avoid ".." (my new shorthand for miniscule marks). In either case I think it demonstrates a poor value judgment. >>
OK. I suppose that just has to be the final word on the subject. Pmh1nic says we can't do it anymore so lets start rounding up all those gems and getting them back in their original rolls and sets. Ship them back to the mint and get a refund because some can't see the difference. If the mint sends them back we'll just have to come up with some other plan. We could resubmit them till they downgrade and if that doesn't work we'll just have to spend them I guess. It's a shame but we just came up a little short. It was fun while it lasted and we'll always have the memories. Perhaps if we take them all to a coin shop we'll be able to buy a real coin with them.
Just to be on the safe side better send those 1932 to 1964 coins back too. In fact just so as not to take a chance maybe all those post 1878 coins should be let go. A lot of those Morgans have some pretty steep premiums in high grade and it just wouldn't pay to have someone actually want the coin at those levels. This may seem a pretty draconian solution but it's all for the best and then we can all have some real coins.
What else should we get rid of? How about those pesky gem bust halfs. With all the new demand for real coins these could go through the roof. It might be a good idea to just go ahead and spend these too before trouble develops. In fact why don't we just destroy all coins except problem free pre 1878 VF coins. This would not only make sure everyone had highly desirable coins but would also prevent competition for any better grades. Next we should get rid of all the pre 1878 VF coins with pops over 347. These are very common coins and there is just no need for people to be collecting such crap. And as long as we're getting rid of junk, did you know there isn't even any silver in the cents and some of these others. That's right it's dirty lousy fiat money. Melt it all the jig is up.
<< <i>Newmismatist: It's hardly fair or likely accurate to just assume that anyone who pays a lot of money for a modern is interested in only the plastic. There is a great deal of ev- idence that this is not normally the case. >>
Cladking
I'm really not sure what motivates people to pay 100x (or sometimes even more) for a coin one grade higher.
As to the evidence as to why, ere's some possibilities in descending order of rational thought:
1. There are only 2 coins extant. 2. The coin is excessively rare in all grades & seldom appears on the market - hence the price guides have no relevence. 3. The coin has some unusual or unique quality that transcends grade & rarity (fabulous toning)
4. The buyer has lots & lots of money & its pocket change to him 5. The buyer doesn't know anything about value or price differential but he's heard that top pop coins are great investments 6. The buyer wants to own the finest known Registry set and money is no object. 7. Any combination of 4, 5 & 6 above.
8. The buyer is not a coin collector, he collects inserts with grades and they are more important than the coin. 9. THe buyer uses the handle "Fan of Moderns" 10. Any combination of 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9.
BTW - just what is the great deal of evidence that you refer to?
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Because there is nothing to bash. Many of the classic coin designs are truely artistic and symbolic. I wish the goverment would use this approach on the moderns.
I'm really not sure what motivates people to pay 100x (or sometimes even more) for a coin one grade higher. >>
Frequently people who talk about these huge spreads are just comparing apples and oranges. Most classics still have substantial value in the just missed grades. Therefore it's perfectly reasonable that the undergrade coin might bring several thousand dollars while the pop top is ten or twenty times this price. With SOME moderns the undergrade is actually a relatively common coin and it has a fairly low price on that basis. So comparing the rare pop top to the common undergrade results in a large multiple.
<< <i> BTW - just what is the great deal of evidence that you refer to? >>
Maybe I've just been hanging around the registry boards too much, but it seems every time one of the buyers of these crazy priced modern comes around he is well spoken and quite lucid. They normally don't talk so much about investing so much as finding a great coin. These people have also been in- terviewed in the coin papers and the like and they always seem well informed and great collectors. I've corresponded with a few of these collectors back in the days that I did some extensive trading and all of them were sincere and involved.
In fact until recently(~1994) there wasn't even a lot of interest in slabbing the coins, they were just looking for upgrades.
Because there is nothing to bash. Many of the classic coin designs are truely artistic and symbolic. I wish the goverment would use this approach on the moderns. >>
No. This is hardly the case. Classics weaknesses can be high lighted and an excellent case made that they make a very poor collectible. Almost all the real weaknesses of US coins ap- ply primarily to the classics. Besides building that case it could easily be argued that they make an even lousier investment. If you start adding in opinion and bashing then they could be made to appear to be hyped junk.
No one profits from this, and no one really believes that classics have no real value so no one bashes the classics. It is ironic that no one profits from the modern bashing either and it likely hurts the classic collectors the most on a percentage basis. But there are many people who be- lieve that the moderns have no real value and that it is all contrived. Hence we have what some- times seems a steady stream of modern bashing. I say seems because this activity has really been muted a lot in recent weeks. We occasionally get a self described ring leader or someone in a bad mood going off abnd stirring the pot but mostly people here have been fair in their criticisms if not actual proponents. Certainly no one is required to like anything and late date coins are no exception.
I,too, would love to see some better designs and an hopeful that it may actually happen.
Comments
<< <i>The ironic thing is that he's a Lincoln collector. I am assuming based on the user name.
Hmm. Very interesting indeed? I guess every 1955 Lincoln cent looks the same.
You know what they say about people that assume. Doubled dies are cool coins, 55, 69, 70, 72 and even the 95. 1963 cents are not, and modern proofs even less.
As a matter of fact, here's bash. I've never been a fan of the nickel three cent piece. To me the design is dull and unappealing. For my collection, I’ve never paid more than $30 for one.
There’s my classic coin bash.
Inside the business I once sold a very attractive (for a nickel three cent piece) 1865 in PCGS PR-65, Cameo for a mid 4 figure amount. It was the capstone coin for a collector who was building a complete set of Proof nickel three cent pieces.
<< <i>Show me examples of where people have WAY overpaid for a "classic coin" and I'll join the bashing club ...
. >>
It was my understanding that we were going to start bashing all high grade coins.
So, what? Now you're saying there are no high grade classics but high grade moderns suck.
look, we're all crazy for paying more than face value for coins! Just ask my wife!
it's just that some are crazier than others.
personally, the most expensive coins i own are scarce in any grade... less than 1000 known on ALL grades. and some had less than 1000 minted and fewer than 100 are known. There might be a few dozen nicer than my coin but there are also only a couple hundred worse.
Of the coins in my type set that have several millions minted and millions are still known in all conditions, none of MY coins are among even the 10% finest known. I am perfectly content with one of the lesser, but still very nice, coins.
I understand that different people have different collecting priorities and that their Ike dollars are almost perfect, while my BU and Proof set is only slightly better than average. I would certainly never "bash" them, except to say, for that kind of money, I would instead buy something a little more interesting to me, personally, such as an early US coin with a draped bust on the front.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Newmismatist: Excellent post, though there are some flawed assumptions. The greatest
of which is that memorial cents are in high demand. Five years ago there were virtually no
collectors of these coins. Even today you'll find many dozens of people who collect the pre-
1959 cents before finding one who collects the later. True, I'm noy counting the many people
who collect these from pocket change. While these are real collectors collecting real coins they
have no effect on the market until they actually buy a coin.
<< <i>
Cladking - Thanks for the compliment. Hovever, I think you're incorrect that there is no demand for Lincoln Memorial cents - there's 59 Registry sets on the PCGS basic Lincoln Memorial Circulation Registry site, there's another 37 LM Registry sets in the circulation "variety" Registry set category (those are just the registry set collectors) and for the Proofs there are 56 Basic Proof LM registry set collectors (Including Stewart Blay who is probably one of the most discerning Lincoln collectors out there) and 33 Proof variety LM registry sets. I haven't checked lately, but I would guess this is more than IHC registry set collectors, either proof or circulation strikes. There are probably thousands of non Registry LM collectors, many of whom also collect the wheaties. Lincoln pennies are w/o doubt the most widely collected US coin series - with the recent US Mint promaotion of State Quarters, they may be 2nd, but Lincoln pennies has the strongest collector base of any single series in US coins. AS far as getting them from pocket change - yes & no you can pick out Unc Lincolns from pocket change the same as I did in the 50's when I was collecting them - you can also go to the Bank & get wrapped Unc rolls & pick the nicest 1 or 2 from a mint roll if you want. But there are lots of LM penny collectors. As far as not having any efffect on the market price of these coins there are 2 factors - the grading of "TOP POP" coins and at least 2 people who want that coin - If you read my comments you will note that NN would have had an under-bidder on every coin he "bought" for his set. THis is not just some dealer puttin a stupid price on his coin -its 2 people both trying to buy that "TOP POP" coin. Remember, that 1963 Pr70DCam had 2 people trying to buy it - if only one person wanted it does anyone here honestly believe that it would have sold for $39,100? And IF you took that coin (or any of those other 46 coins I used in my example) out of its plastic holder - what are any of them worth raw? In other words: Is our intrepid NN paying for the coin or for the paper insert with the grade opinion? LMCs are a real collectible series of coins - paper opinions are not.
<< <i>Modern coins are a FAR larger field than merely proof cents. There are varieties (including three
major proof cents), there are eight different series of regular issue coins (And 25 states quarters),
There are numerous commems and special issues, they have been struck in 10 different metallic
compositions including three clads, there are three separate series of bullion coins and a series
which wasn't monetized.
<< <i>
Cladking - I agree completely & if someone wants to spend the time, I bet you would find that many of these other varieties are equally over-priced for whatever particular series you wanted to examine - I think I've seen some Pr70DCam SQs at $4-6K - another rare coin? or a paper insert with an opinion as to the coins grade? Any different than the one's in the sealed mint proof sets? NN only managed to spend $141,429 for his 46 coins - If he had been "Lucky enough to find the 1964 Pr70DCam (Pop 1) and the 1998, 99 & 2000-S Pr70Dcams (all Pop 1 coins) he easily could have spent another $25-50K, just for those 4 coins - so the Top Pop set is actually closer to $200K. How about when you add in the Jefferson, Roosies, Wash Quarters JFKs, Ikes, SBAs, Sacs & SQs? Now what - I'm cetainly not going to check the prices for the top pop coins for these series, but if NN can spend $200K for 46 LMCs, he probably could spend 4 times that if he blindly purchased only the top pop coins for all of thoses series also - even if he limited himself to just those minted since 1965. What about the circulation strikes? How much more for those top pop coins? And in this area, there probably really are some condition rarities.
<< <i>High grade proof cents truly are rare coins.
<< <i>
Cladking this is not true - they are artificially preceived as rare because so few are graded, but only because so few of the total population have been graded. And, grading these "top pop" coins must be a bit difficult, as the 68s, 69s and 70s essentiall all look alike - the same as many of the non-graded ones look in their mint sealed cases. Try this: - get 50 high grade coins (same series & not the mistakes that are obvious mis-grades), cover the grades so you can't tell what the paper insert says & show them to 10 of the best graders in the business - Do you think they could accurately & consistently tell you which are the 69s & which are the 70s? - but wait - limit them to the 10-20 seconds that the graders give each coin, then what kind of spread would you get? - there's all sorts of variations to determine the consistency of the graders, but for sure, we'll never know because I don't think either of the major services would ever allow their graders to be publically tested as to their ability to accurately re-grade these coins.
<< <i> Who would have thought five years ago that it would ever be possible to spend $140,000 on a set of these? >>
My point exactly! The better question is: Why would any one spend $140,000 on a set of these?
(and you could substitute any number of different series (Roosies, Ikes, SQs etc. etc) with these same inexplicable prices for "set of these" and have exactly the same question.)
Collect coins, not paper inserts with numbers.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
a lot of money for a modern is interested in only the plastic. There is a great deal of ev-
idence that this is not normally the case.
You say that the total value of all the modern pop tops is large with an implication that it's
in excess of $500,000. What do you think the total value of all the classic pop tops would
be? There are dozens of the classics which are worth $500,000!!!! The total value would
simply dwarf the total value of the moderns. It there some level which you think you'd be
more comfortable with? If so how would you propose to achieve that level?
I didn't realize that there were so many registry sets of the later Lincolns. This is certainly
encouraging, but still it must be remembered that a much higher percentage of modern col-
lectors are seeking the high grades simply because they are affordable. The high grades
they are being collected in much more leads to being registered- - there are lots of MS-63
and AU wheatie sets which simply are not registered.
I'll let Newmismatist answer for himself but I don't think it's necessarily a matter of someone spending a lot of money for a modern that renders that purchase mainly a purchase of plastic. In my mind it's more a matter of the 20X ~ 100X premium paid for a number on the slab that's one point higher then the number on the next lower grade renders it a purchase of plastic (IMHO). It's either paying for the plastic or paying to avoid ".." (my new shorthand for miniscule marks). In either case I think it demonstrates a poor value judgment.
<< <i>"Newmismatist: It's hardly fair or likely accurate to just assume that anyone who pays a lot of money for a modern is interested in only the plastic. There is a great deal of evidence that this is not normally the case."
I'll let Newmismatist answer for himself but I don't think it's necessarily a matter of someone spending a lot of money for a modern that renders that purchase mainly a purchase of plastic. In my mind it's more a matter of the 20X ~ 100X premium paid for a number on the slab that's one point higher then the number on the next lower grade renders it a purchase of plastic (IMHO). It's either paying for the plastic or paying to avoid ".." (my new shorthand for miniscule marks). In either case I think it demonstrates a poor value judgment. >>
OK. I suppose that just has to be the final word on the subject. Pmh1nic says we can't do it anymore
so lets start rounding up all those gems and getting them back in their original rolls and sets. Ship them
back to the mint and get a refund because some can't see the difference. If the mint sends them back
we'll just have to come up with some other plan. We could resubmit them till they downgrade and if that
doesn't work we'll just have to spend them I guess. It's a shame but we just came up a little short. It was
fun while it lasted and we'll always have the memories. Perhaps if we take them all to a coin shop we'll
be able to buy a real coin with them.
Just to be on the safe side better send those 1932 to 1964 coins back too. In fact just so as not to take a chance maybe all those post 1878 coins should be let go. A lot of those Morgans have some pretty steep premiums in high grade and it just wouldn't pay to have someone actually want the coin at those levels.
This may seem a pretty draconian solution but it's all for the best and then we can all have some real coins.
What else should we get rid of? How about those pesky gem bust halfs. With all the new demand for
real coins these could go through the roof. It might be a good idea to just go ahead and spend these
too before trouble develops. In fact why don't we just destroy all coins except problem free pre 1878
VF coins. This would not only make sure everyone had highly desirable coins but would also prevent
competition for any better grades. Next we should get rid of all the pre 1878 VF coins with pops over
347. These are very common coins and there is just no need for people to be collecting such crap. And
as long as we're getting rid of junk, did you know there isn't even any silver in the cents and some of
these others. That's right it's dirty lousy fiat money. Melt it all the jig is up.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Newmismatist: It's hardly fair or likely accurate to just assume that anyone who pays
a lot of money for a modern is interested in only the plastic. There is a great deal of ev-
idence that this is not normally the case. >>
Cladking
I'm really not sure what motivates people to pay 100x (or sometimes even more) for a coin one grade higher.
As to the evidence as to why, ere's some possibilities in descending order of rational thought:
1. There are only 2 coins extant.
2. The coin is excessively rare in all grades & seldom appears on the market - hence the price guides have no relevence.
3. The coin has some unusual or unique quality that transcends grade & rarity (fabulous toning)
4. The buyer has lots & lots of money & its pocket change to him
5. The buyer doesn't know anything about value or price differential but he's heard that top pop coins are great investments
6. The buyer wants to own the finest known Registry set and money is no object.
7. Any combination of 4, 5 & 6 above.
8. The buyer is not a coin collector, he collects inserts with grades and they are more important than the coin.
9. THe buyer uses the handle "Fan of Moderns"
10. Any combination of 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9.
BTW - just what is the great deal of evidence that you refer to?
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Yes, the correct answer is #2 above,
end of debate, end of story.
Because there is nothing to bash. Many of the classic coin designs are truely artistic and symbolic. I wish the goverment would use this approach on the moderns.
<< <i>
I'm really not sure what motivates people to pay 100x (or sometimes even more) for a coin one grade higher. >>
Frequently people who talk about these huge spreads are just comparing apples and oranges.
Most classics still have substantial value in the just missed grades. Therefore it's perfectly reasonable
that the undergrade coin might bring several thousand dollars while the pop top is ten or twenty times
this price. With SOME moderns the undergrade is actually a relatively common coin and it has a fairly
low price on that basis. So comparing the rare pop top to the common undergrade results in a large
multiple.
<< <i>
BTW - just what is the great deal of evidence that you refer to? >>
Maybe I've just been hanging around the registry boards too much, but it seems every time one of the
buyers of these crazy priced modern comes around he is well spoken and quite lucid. They normally
don't talk so much about investing so much as finding a great coin. These people have also been in-
terviewed in the coin papers and the like and they always seem well informed and great collectors. I've
corresponded with a few of these collectors back in the days that I did some extensive trading and
all of them were sincere and involved.
In fact until recently(~1994) there wasn't even a lot of interest in slabbing the coins, they were just
looking for upgrades.
<< <i>So why don't people bash the classics?
Because there is nothing to bash. Many of the classic coin designs are truely artistic and symbolic. I wish the goverment would use this approach on the moderns. >>
No. This is hardly the case. Classics weaknesses can be high lighted and an excellent case
made that they make a very poor collectible. Almost all the real weaknesses of US coins ap-
ply primarily to the classics. Besides building that case it could easily be argued that they
make an even lousier investment. If you start adding in opinion and bashing then they could
be made to appear to be hyped junk.
No one profits from this, and no one really believes that classics have no real value so no one
bashes the classics. It is ironic that no one profits from the modern bashing either and it likely
hurts the classic collectors the most on a percentage basis. But there are many people who be-
lieve that the moderns have no real value and that it is all contrived. Hence we have what some-
times seems a steady stream of modern bashing. I say seems because this activity has really been
muted a lot in recent weeks. We occasionally get a self described ring leader or someone in a bad
mood going off abnd stirring the pot but mostly people here have been fair in their criticisms if not
actual proponents. Certainly no one is required to like anything and late date coins are no exception.
I,too, would love to see some better designs and an hopeful that it may actually happen.