I'm sure I'll see James and Dennis at shows and across the street, and I'm also sure the outcome of the "issue" will be public knowledge. The problem as I see it is that PCGS should have killed the thread as soon as it posted and solved the problem via PM, or involved themselves in the discussion. The large non-speaking monolith that just occasionally deletes threads it doesn't like seems like an organization under seige that has erected barriers to protect itself. I'm sure there are legitimately two sides to the issue, but PCGS has thus far made certain only one side will be heard. That is IMO a bad decision.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I followed the whole Jade Coin Debacle. Seems PCGS pedigreed a coin, The coin was not listed in the pedigreed catalog, Jade brought this to the attention of PCGS, PCGS said "oops", reholdered the coin sans pedigree with no explanation. Sent the coin back in its new plastic dungeon and that was all that was supposed to happen to it, according to PCGS.
On the other hand, Jade bought the coin for a customer, delivered the coin to the customer, Customer refused the coin, since it was not in the pedigree catalog. PCGS reholdered it without the pedigree. Jade was left SOL $$$$$ as the coin became much less valuable without the pedigree(?).
Jade contested the reholdering without consent, or explanation from PCGS, and put PCGS to task, for their deeds.
Now you know the rest of the story!
I do not know, what went on behind the scenes, if anything. At any rate it makes no difference to me. What is important here is the reaction by PCGS, to this situation.
I read the complaints from other board members about this thread. Most are not in favor of PCGS reaction to jade coin. So what are we going to do about it? Nothing I am sure. We are collectively going to say "what a shame" and continue to deal with Homerunfoul as nothing ever happened.
I am not advocating boycotting PCGS on the purchase of coins. But would it not be nice to boycott the Hall guy on his *itchnight. Or refuse to bow to him when passing in the hall.
The dynamics of all this, is our own greed and selfishness. Don't *iss the God off or he will body bag my next submission, downgrade a coin or two of mine, or what ever. Personally, I could care less about Hall, his thin skin, arrogance or his ability to scare little people.
If this is how a supposed, professional company is run, God help the coin industry and those that support it!
Bulldog
Proud to have fought for America, and to be an AMERICAN!
<< <i>Not much different than this old thread in my opinion. >>
Sad that people are allowed to post lies like that in these great forums. This coin that person talks about is supposed to be a pop 1. The PCGS pop report shows only 1 graded so clearly the coin was a true MS66 and it still is. Bravo PCGS!
PCGS need to boot more members that make baseless complaints about them! >>
<< <i> I would guess that the dismissal was more of what was happening between jadecoin/jadecoin's attorneys and PCGS/PCGS' attorneys. >>
Speaking of attorneys, has anyone heard from Michael (Frattlaw)?
Michael! You still here?
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
While I don't necessarily expect it, I hope that the forum receives a CREDIBLE/REASONABLE explanation as to why JadeCoin was banished.
To those who say Jade should have tried to resolve this privately before airing it here, I say, if you read their posts you will see they claim to have tried that first.
To those who say it was a legal issue, I say you jumped the gun and that it was a customer service issue. Plenty of those have been discussed here.
To those who say Jade's claims were baseless, I say you probably have no idea about that. Frankly, few of us have enough facts to know whether Jade's position was baseless or not, though, based on other customer service issues that have arisen, their claims certainly sounded credible.
I wish that, rather than censoring threads and banning forum members, David (are you reading this Mr. Hall?) would address such issues. I think it would be just as or more efficient and far less damaging to PCGS's image.
I thought Jadecoin exercised poor judgement in the way he handled the issue. However, I was willing to cut him some slack because I could imagine how frustrated he must feel. Booting him off the forum however is unexcusable.
What a fisspoor way to run a company!!!
If I were a shareholder, I'd have serious doubts about the long-term viability of the business. Can you imagine what the work environment must be like for employees? How many companies survive over the long term with that kind of customer service? As I tell my employees often: "If you don't focus on the customer...all our other problems will disappear."
I've never really followed the stock. What has the stock price done over the last couple of years? Does anyone ever see any publication of marketshare in the industry?
This really speaks volumes about the company and should certainly forewarn people to buy the coin and not the slab. I still have a few coins with the old ANA papers and pictures. They make interesting conversation pieces.
IF, that is IF, hypothetically, Karl is correct about the lineage of this coin. What then???? As a result of JadeCoin's thread, PCGS goes back to determine if there was a mechanical error and finds that the submitting dealer "created" evidence of the pedigree. Hypothetically, not wanting to be revealed for their lack of investigation into the pedigree of the coin, they step up and ban JadeCoin. Hypothetically, PCGS might attempt to defend a large, well connected dealer's interest, rather than a low submission dealer's (JadeCoin) interest. Is that possible?? Hypothetically?
I most certainly think that it would benefit the hobby if a respected member of this board were to write a letter to the editor of Coin World suggesting that an article be written on the process, reliability and value of the pedigrees put on the plastic by all slabbing companies. I'm most certainly not singleing out PCGS here.
But I think that a decent portion of folks in the hobby believe that having the pedigree on the coin by a respectable slabbing company indicates that the coin has been professionally researched and determined to be of the pedigree indicated. If this is not what the slabbing companies are selling.....that is fine.....but I think the hobby needs to know that.
Could it be the failure on PCGS part to say Shoot we messed up. Fill out this guaranty claim form and let us make this right Mr. collector.
I doubt that the Hall could humble himself to admit a mistake. Perhaps if PCGS bullies the offended party enough, the problem will go away and everything will be Rosy in La La land!
Bulldog
Proud to have fought for America, and to be an AMERICAN!
The real PR mess that was created here could have been quickly and easily averted by simply deleting the thread, sending a warning to Jadecoin, and presenting the PCGS side of the story, or at least an explanation as to why the thread was deleted, and that would have been that.
Instead, what happened was someone was banned, multiple threads were deleted, and no explanation was givin. It looks, perhaps correctly so, that Jadecoin was "swept under the rug".
I'm not going to take sides here, because frankly I don't know both sides of the story. But, I will say it could have been dealt with in a better way.
Dennis and James of Jade Coin are nice guys, who treat their customers fairly and with respect. They are an asset to this forum, and have a wealth of knowledge about Early US coins.
I sure hope that they can work things out amicably with PCGS so that we all come out winners.
Nobody wants to have this type of thing cast a shadow on either the Profession or Hobby of Numismatics.
I propose that we encourage both sides to get together to resolve this reasonably small commercial issue, when considered in the big picture.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
That was not a good move by PCGS to remove that thread. There was some substantive dialogue on both sides of the issue.
Removal of such lengthy thread (which would have faded into obscurity anyway) puts PCGS on the defensive and more importantly, under a stench of suspicion. I am sure that was not PCGS's intent. But that will be the outcome.
They just don't seem to understand that when they ban an individual(s) or delete a very lengthy thread, it immediately gives the story credibility and very strong "legs" on the other boards. Deleting this thread only makes the story stronger and longer!!
<< <i>Speaking of attorneys, has anyone heard from Michael (Frattlaw)? >>
I'm still here. I've just been really busy with several cases I am currently handling. Believe me when I say there is merit to Jadecoin's complaint(s), however, I cannot go into detail presently. As for Dennis (Jadecoin) getting banned, it is extremely unfortunate. It is also extremely unfortunate that this situation had to evolve into this. While I don't blame PCGS for trying to quell the "uprising," doing it in this manner is rather poor. However, from what we have seen, this is par for the course and quite expected at least in my mind. Jadecoin did put Hall & PCGS into an uncomfortable position.
I'm sure Hall did not want to set precendent by responding and then trying to remedy the situation once that thread took on a life of it's own. And the more silence he tried to throw on the matter that only helped to stoke the fires of discontent even further. A dammed if you do and a dammed if you don't situation. No winners, just losers in all of this.
I have to believe though that this issue goes far beyond a Norweb AU/MS coin. It probably speaks to the nature of all third party grading services and what they really stand for and who they cater to. I find it hard to believe that $1500 will cause such an uproar. However, the largest avalanches awalys start as a small crack or fissure in the snow. I really think there huge ramifications involved with this matter that none of you have even considered. Think about it carefully. I don't think this matter will be swept under the rug, quickly or cheaply.
For anyone who has read "The Art of War," you know that one of the greatest blunders one came make is to under estimate your enemy (or situation). I think PCGS has done just that in this case. I would hope there's someone right now counseling Hall as to what ramifications this whole situation might have as to his stewardship of PCGS as well as CU. There's already been 1 stockholder who has expressed his displeasure with this situation. Remember, this is a public entity, not a closely held private corporation.
I can only hope that Hall, PCGS, CU, Jadecoin, the dealer who sold Dennis the coin, as well as the original submiter of the coin, can all work this out quickly and with the best outcome for all those involved. As much as I am an attorney and love the law, there are better ways to settle disputes then through litigation.
I believe the language used in the title of the thread was wrong, "did we get $crewed by pcgs"
Not a good way to start a thread even if you feel you got $crewed.
Pcgs should have owned up to the mistake with an explanation rather then reholdering the coin without pedigree or explanation. I certainly would question wether or not its a submitters responcability to prove pedigree or the grading services responcability. If pcgs is not responsible for accuratly assigning pedigree it should not be part of their service.
Either Jade coin was lying when he said he attempted to settle this with pcgs before posting here and got nowhere or he's telling the truth, if he told the truth, then why wouldn't posting here be his next logical step ?
I don't buy coins for who might have owned them before me, I'd rather just pay for a nice coin withou a premium for the name Norweb printed on the slab, but if I did after the way this has been handled so far I would not trust anyone to pedigree a coin I couldn't prove myself.
Maybe there are legalities involved here that non of us know about, but when this is done, I hope pcgs reconsiders their decision and lets Jade back in.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
>They obviously removed it because it was baseless. You haven't had a course in logic, have you? Stick around troll, maybe you'll learn something here.
> I'm sure there are legitimately two sides to the issue, but PCGS has thus far made certain only one side will be heard. Agreed and as I said in the original thread, the silence is deafening.
All PCGS really had to do was respond to the thread, "Hey, sorry we didn't answer your phone call or put in a note of explanation. We are looking into the issue."
That would have quelled the uprising.
That thread was one of the more interesting on this forum recently. There was some very good discussion about a real issue.
I'm very distressed about this situation. I did follow the original thread and didn't see any disrespect towards PCGS by Jadecoins. Unless there is something else at play here, I don’t understand why they got the boot. This smells...
I thought Jadecoin was one of the most helpful, courteous, and knowledgeable people on this forum. Not sure if the lapse of judgement was out of impulse or frustration but "the thread" was a bad idea.
To add to the chorus, Jadecoin was very helpful and was one of the things that made this site good. I do not understand why pcgs does not realize theese people help promote the hobby and puts money in their pocket(pcgs) at the same time.
Included with any "bashing" in that thread was also support of PCGS, and suggestions for resolution. That got axed along with the rest.
More importantly, that support of PCGS will probably be less likely to be forthcoming in the future. Certainly my support will be less likely. It's frustrating to defend a company that turns around and does something shortsighted like this.
I think jadecoin handled some of what he did poorly (and said so in that thread) but PCGS had an opportunity to take the high-road anyway, work it out, and get a positive follow-up post about how they made things right.
Sure seems something like that would be a better solution than cut-n-run. Dumb.
shock & awe! i choked on my cheerios when i saw that the jade boys got the boot. man oh man, things have gotten nuts around here!
<< <i>About time! Jadecoin was here to cause trouble and badmouth PCGS. Now PCGS can get back to doing what we all love them to do and that is grade coins. No more need to spend time in these forums defending themselves against baseless attacks..... They obviously removed it because it was baseless.... Sad that people are allowed to post lies like that in these great forums. This coin that person talks about is supposed to be a pop 1. The PCGS pop report shows only 1 graded so clearly the coin was a true MS66 and it still is. Bravo PCGS! PCGS need to boot more members that make baseless complaints about them! >>
Cool new handle, Wallstreetman.
Russ, NCNE
right on, russ. fanofmoderns, you don't fool anyone. but you are a fool.
<< <i>it was a fairly serious issue that should not have been posted on these boards until after the issue had been resolved with PCGS. >>
from what i read, it was resolved. pcgs said "tough luck" & sent the corrected slab back.
<< <i>As usual, we hear 50% of a story and everyone jumps to a conclusion. We have not heard PCGSs side of the story, nor do we have any knowledge of what may have been said, written or conveyed by 3rd parties in this matter. >>
bear dude, what are you mumbling about? did you forget that homerunhall posted THIS?
I find it amazing that most people seem to assume that everything posted on the message board is true. Then, without having an inkling of the whole story, they self-righteously pontificate about what's right and wrong and what PCGS should or shouldn't do.
I remember the time a person posted a scan of a rare early S-mint Lincoln that PCGS had body-bagged saying, "How could PCGS no-grade this lovely original coin, blah, blah, blah. They've lost a customer with this shoddy treatment, etc." Many members jumped on the bandwagon and condemmed this "poor grading" of the coin by PCGS. So I contacted the person and had him send the coin in. It turned out to be a laughable, blatantly whizzed POS.
As for the recent post you're asking about, this person is definitely not using the right approach to problem solving. If he has a problem he should contact me and if something is truly wrong, I'll make sure it gets fixed. But going on the message board and asking members for "help" just isn't logical, since none of you can fix his problem...if he indeed does have a problem. PCGS does not want to screw any of its customers and we always take care of business. If we make a mistake, we make it right...period, end of story. And anybody that tells you different is probably lying to you about other things as well.
Like the Beatles said..."Anytime at all...all you gotta do is call."
<< <i>IF, that is IF, hypothetically, Karl is correct about the lineage of this coin. What then???? >>
hey dcamfranklin, i stand behind that scenario i presented, which i won't reproduce here for obvious fear of banishment. lemme just say this, what i stated before has completely accurate. anyone got a copy of the thread stored away somewhere?
<< <i>I have to believe though that this issue goes far beyond a Norweb AU/MS coin. It probably speaks to the nature of all third party grading services and what they really stand for and who they cater to. I find it hard to believe that $1500 will cause such an uproar. However, the largest avalanches awalys start as a small crack or fissure in the snow. I really think there huge ramifications involved with this matter that none of you have even considered. Think about it carefully. I don't think this matter will be swept under the rug, quickly or cheaply. >>
(my bolds) frattlaw, you don't know how right you are. the jadeboys have unwittingly stumbled upon something that is way, way bigger than they or most of you forum members imagine. i know this to be a fact.
<< <i>I followed the whole Jade Coin Debacle. Seems PCGS pedigreed a coin, The coin was not listed in the pedigreed catalog, Jade brought this to the attention of PCGS, PCGS said "oops", reholdered the coin sans pedigree with no explanation. Sent the coin back in its new plastic dungeon and that was all that was supposed to happen to it, according to PCGS.
On the other hand, Jade bought the coin for a customer, delivered the coin to the customer, Customer refused the coin, since it was not in the pedigree catalog. PCGS reholdered it without the pedigree. Jade was left SOL $$$$$ as the coin became much less valuable without the pedigree(?).
Jade contested the reholdering without consent, or explanation from PCGS, and put PCGS to task, for their deeds.
Now you know the rest of the story!
I do not know, what went on behind the scenes, if anything. At any rate it makes no difference to me. What is important here is the reaction by PCGS, to this situation.
I read the complaints from other board members about this thread. Most are not in favor of PCGS reaction to jade coin. So what are we going to do about it? Nothing I am sure. We are collectively going to say "what a shame" and continue to deal with Homerunfoul as nothing ever happened.
I am not advocating boycotting PCGS on the purchase of coins. But would it not be nice to boycott the Hall guy on his *itchnight. Or refuse to bow to him when passing in the hall.
The dynamics of all this, is our own greed and selfishness. Don't *iss the God off or he will body bag my next submission, downgrade a coin or two of mine, or what ever. Personally, I could care less about Hall, his thin skin, arrogance or his ability to scare little people.
If this is how a supposed, professional company is run, God help the coin industry and those that support it!
Bulldog >>
brilliantly stated, and the most insightful post seen on the forum in a long, long time.
i was going to do my usual morning look-through at other threads to see what's new, didn't expect to see this situation this morming. guess i'm through w/ it for now.
This totally f'ing bites - HRH/Carol take the easy way out again!
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
FanOfModerns seems to post in the same senseless verbiage as Doops, however the spelling is better.
SuperCoin>
<< <i> think jadecoin handled some of what he did poorly (and said so in that thread) but PCGS had an opportunity to take the high-road anyway, work it out, and get a positive follow-up post about how they made things right. >>
You are so right!. $1500 to make the deal good and remove any doubt as exectly where PCGS stands with guaranty is EXTREMELY cheap POSITIVE publicity.
As things now appear to stand, PCGS saved $1500 bucks and probably generated several hundred thousand dollars of NEGATIVE publicity. This "episode" would make an interesting thread across the street that PCGS could not delete, and if CoinWorld or some other trade rag decided to try a follow-up, ?????
The before and after pictures of the coin said it all! The error should have been corrected with a one day turnaround! Before had all the information and a slab number. Second picture had the same coin and slab number, but no NORWEB! Is that trully hard to correct and make a customer happy! They always state with a reholder service that nothing changes, and I see that isn't so. I will miss them on this forum, but I can travel accross the street and visit them their!!
HEAD TUCKED AND ROLLING ALONG ENJOYING THE VIEW! [Most people I know!]
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!! Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
I turned off the computer early last night, and see this thread this morning. Very disappointing, and uncalled for (the banning, not the thread!) Dennis and James were definitely in the good guy column and got shafted for a second time with the ban.
This will probably outrun the original thread. Even Greg has checked in across the street about this one. I would imagine someone from PCGS will address their reasoning behind this before too long.
Joe
The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition.
PhillyJoe - That's pretty much the same mindset people had about PCGS making it right. After all it was only $1500 bucks. To me that's a fortune, but to PCGS it's chump change. That probably wouldn't even cover what they spend each month on advertising.....
Instead, they "screw"-up again by creating lots of free NEGATIVE publicity????
Comments
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I haven't seen many posts from her lately, maybe she got the 'economy service' boot
(just kidding Laura - HRH could be afraid you would come beat him up at the next show)
I vote for their new handle to be jadedcoin
On the other hand, Jade bought the coin for a customer, delivered the coin to the customer, Customer refused the coin, since it was not in the pedigree catalog. PCGS reholdered it without the pedigree. Jade was left SOL $$$$$ as the coin became much less valuable without the pedigree(?).
Jade contested the reholdering without consent, or explanation from PCGS, and put PCGS to task, for their deeds.
Now you know the rest of the story!
I do not know, what went on behind the scenes, if anything. At any rate it makes no difference to me. What is important here is the reaction by PCGS, to this situation.
I read the complaints from other board members about this thread. Most are not in favor of PCGS reaction to jade coin. So what are we going to do about it? Nothing I am sure. We are collectively going to say "what a shame" and continue to deal with Homerunfoul as nothing ever happened.
I am not advocating boycotting PCGS on the purchase of coins. But would it not be nice to boycott the Hall guy on his *itchnight. Or refuse to bow to him when passing in the hall.
The dynamics of all this, is our own greed and selfishness. Don't *iss the God off or he will body bag my next submission, downgrade a coin or two of mine, or what ever. Personally, I could care less about Hall, his thin skin, arrogance or his ability to scare little people.
If this is how a supposed, professional company is run, God help the coin industry and those that support it!
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
<< <i>
<< <i>Not much different than this old thread in my opinion. >>
Sad that people are allowed to post lies like that in these great forums. This coin that person talks about is supposed to be a pop 1. The PCGS pop report shows only 1 graded so clearly the coin was a true MS66 and it still is. Bravo PCGS!
PCGS need to boot more members that make baseless complaints about them! >>
Here is the follow up thread.
Got quoins?
We have not heard PCGSs side of the story, nor do we have any knowledge
of what may have been said, written or conveyed by 3rd parties in this matter.
I have always found Jade Coins to be a positive voice on the Forum. It is my hope that when this
matter is resolved, we shall once again be entertained and educated by Jades droll sense of humour.
Camelot
<< <i> I would guess that the dismissal was more of what was happening between jadecoin/jadecoin's attorneys and PCGS/PCGS' attorneys. >>
Speaking of attorneys, has anyone heard from Michael (Frattlaw)?
Michael! You still here?
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
To those who say Jade should have tried to resolve this privately before airing it here, I say, if you read their posts you will see they claim to have tried that first.
To those who say it was a legal issue, I say you jumped the gun and that it was a customer service issue. Plenty of those have been discussed here.
To those who say Jade's claims were baseless, I say you probably have no idea about that. Frankly, few of us have enough facts to know whether Jade's position was baseless or not, though, based on other customer service issues that have arisen, their claims certainly sounded credible.
I wish that, rather than censoring threads and banning forum members, David (are you reading this Mr. Hall?) would address such issues. I think it would be just as or more efficient and far less damaging to PCGS's image.
What a fisspoor way to run a company!!!
If I were a shareholder, I'd have serious doubts about the long-term viability of the business. Can you imagine what the work environment must be like for employees? How many companies survive over the long term with that kind of customer service? As I tell my employees often: "If you don't focus on the customer...all our other problems will disappear."
I've never really followed the stock. What has the stock price done over the last couple of years? Does anyone ever see any publication of marketshare in the industry?
This really speaks volumes about the company and should certainly forewarn people to buy the coin and not the slab. I still have a few coins with the old ANA papers and pictures. They make interesting conversation pieces.
But I think that a decent portion of folks in the hobby believe that having the pedigree on the coin by a respectable slabbing company indicates that the coin has been professionally researched and determined to be of the pedigree indicated. If this is not what the slabbing companies are selling.....that is fine.....but I think the hobby needs to know that.
Could it be the failure on PCGS part to say Shoot we messed up. Fill out this guaranty claim form and let us make this right Mr. collector.
I doubt that the Hall could humble himself to admit a mistake. Perhaps if PCGS bullies the offended party enough, the problem will go away and everything will be Rosy in La La land!
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
<< <i>FanOfModerns - Are you serious about this stuff or is this just your (curiously funny) attempt at "performance art"? >>
Sure I am serious that PCGS should boot the liars who say bad lies about PCGS.
The real PR mess that was created here could have been quickly and easily averted by simply deleting the thread, sending a warning to Jadecoin, and presenting the PCGS side of the story, or at least an explanation as to why the thread was deleted, and that would have been that.
Instead, what happened was someone was banned, multiple threads were deleted, and no explanation was givin. It looks, perhaps correctly so, that Jadecoin was "swept under the rug".
I'm not going to take sides here, because frankly I don't know both sides of the story. But, I will say it could have been dealt with in a better way.
-Robert
<< <i>
<< <i>FanOfModerns - Are you serious about this stuff or is this just your (curiously funny) attempt at "performance art"? >>
Sure I am serious that PCGS should boot the liars who say bad lies about PCGS. >>
Come on guys...how many times do we have to learn to not feed the trolls?
Typed a Nice Long response for this but it got deleted for Censored words. The above will have to suffice.
Ken
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
I sure hope that they can work things out amicably with PCGS so that we all come out winners.
Nobody wants to have this type of thing cast a shadow on either the Profession or Hobby of Numismatics.
I propose that we encourage both sides to get together to resolve this reasonably small commercial issue, when considered in the big picture.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>FanofModerns, what Registry sets do you have? >>
I have no registered any yet as I want to wait until they are more complete. I am working on state quarters and silver eagles.
Removal of such lengthy thread (which would have faded into obscurity anyway) puts PCGS on the defensive and more importantly, under a stench of suspicion. I am sure that was not PCGS's intent. But that will be the outcome.
If you know what you know..... and know what you don't know..... that's when you know!
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Wheat's Walkers.... current # 1
<< <i>Speaking of attorneys, has anyone heard from Michael (Frattlaw)? >>
I'm still here. I've just been really busy with several cases I am currently handling. Believe me when I say there is merit to Jadecoin's complaint(s), however, I cannot go into detail presently. As for Dennis (Jadecoin) getting banned, it is extremely unfortunate. It is also extremely unfortunate that this situation had to evolve into this. While I don't blame PCGS for trying to quell the "uprising," doing it in this manner is rather poor. However, from what we have seen, this is par for the course and quite expected at least in my mind. Jadecoin did put Hall & PCGS into an uncomfortable position.
I'm sure Hall did not want to set precendent by responding and then trying to remedy the situation once that thread took on a life of it's own. And the more silence he tried to throw on the matter that only helped to stoke the fires of discontent even further. A dammed if you do and a dammed if you don't situation. No winners, just losers in all of this.
I have to believe though that this issue goes far beyond a Norweb AU/MS coin. It probably speaks to the nature of all third party grading services and what they really stand for and who they cater to. I find it hard to believe that $1500 will cause such an uproar. However, the largest avalanches awalys start as a small crack or fissure in the snow. I really think there huge ramifications involved with this matter that none of you have even considered. Think about it carefully. I don't think this matter will be swept under the rug, quickly or cheaply.
For anyone who has read "The Art of War," you know that one of the greatest blunders one came make is to under estimate your enemy (or situation). I think PCGS has done just that in this case. I would hope there's someone right now counseling Hall as to what ramifications this whole situation might have as to his stewardship of PCGS as well as CU. There's already been 1 stockholder who has expressed his displeasure with this situation. Remember, this is a public entity, not a closely held private corporation.
I can only hope that Hall, PCGS, CU, Jadecoin, the dealer who sold Dennis the coin, as well as the original submiter of the coin, can all work this out quickly and with the best outcome for all those involved. As much as I am an attorney and love the law, there are better ways to settle disputes then through litigation.
Michael
Not a good way to start a thread even if you feel you got $crewed.
Pcgs should have owned up to the mistake with an explanation rather then reholdering the coin without pedigree or explanation. I certainly would question wether or not its a submitters responcability to prove pedigree or the grading services responcability. If pcgs is not responsible for accuratly assigning pedigree it should not be part of their service.
Either Jade coin was lying when he said he attempted to settle this with pcgs before posting here and got nowhere or he's telling the truth, if he told the truth, then why wouldn't posting here be his next logical step ?
I don't buy coins for who might have owned them before me, I'd rather just pay for a nice coin withou a premium for the name Norweb printed on the slab, but if I did after the way this has been handled so far I would not trust anyone to pedigree a coin I couldn't prove myself.
Maybe there are legalities involved here that non of us know about, but when this is done, I hope pcgs reconsiders their decision and lets Jade back in.
Les
You haven't had a course in logic, have you?
Stick around troll, maybe you'll learn something here.
> I'm sure there are legitimately two sides to the issue, but PCGS has thus far made certain only one side will be heard.
Agreed and as I said in the original thread, the silence is deafening.
-KHayse
"Hey, sorry we didn't answer your phone call or put in a note
of explanation. We are looking into the issue."
That would have quelled the uprising.
That thread was one of the more interesting on this forum recently.
There was some very good discussion about a real issue.
-KHayse
We learn more and more and more.
I wonder if he feels he has lost some of his freedom?
How sad...here on this public forum that we don't have freedom of speech!
If the higher ups don't like what you say...shut up and be on your way! Sounds real UN-American to me!
Not sure if the lapse of judgement was out of impulse or frustration but "the thread" was a bad idea.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
More importantly, that support of PCGS will probably be less likely to be forthcoming in the future. Certainly my support will be less likely. It's frustrating to defend a company that turns around and does something shortsighted like this.
I think jadecoin handled some of what he did poorly (and said so in that thread) but PCGS had an opportunity to take the high-road anyway, work it out, and get a positive follow-up post about how they made things right.
Sure seems something like that would be a better solution than cut-n-run. Dumb.
Not Right DH
09/07/2006
<< <i>About time! Jadecoin was here to cause trouble and badmouth PCGS. Now PCGS can get back to doing what we all love them to do and that is grade coins. No more need to spend time in these forums defending themselves against baseless attacks..... They obviously removed it because it was baseless.... Sad that people are allowed to post lies like that in these great forums. This coin that person talks about is supposed to be a pop 1. The PCGS pop report shows only 1 graded so clearly the coin was a true MS66 and it still is. Bravo PCGS! PCGS need to boot more members that make baseless complaints about them! >>
Cool new handle, Wallstreetman.
Russ, NCNE
right on, russ. fanofmoderns, you don't fool anyone. but you are a fool.
<< <i>it was a fairly serious issue that should not have been posted on these boards until after the issue had been resolved with PCGS. >>
from what i read, it was resolved. pcgs said "tough luck" & sent the corrected slab back.
<< <i>As usual, we hear 50% of a story and everyone jumps to a conclusion. We have not heard PCGSs side of the story, nor do we have any knowledge of what may have been said, written or conveyed by 3rd parties in this matter. >>
bear dude, what are you mumbling about? did you forget that homerunhall posted THIS?
I find it amazing that most people seem to assume that everything posted on the message board is true. Then, without having an inkling of the whole story, they self-righteously pontificate about what's right and wrong and what PCGS should or shouldn't do.
I remember the time a person posted a scan of a rare early S-mint Lincoln that PCGS had body-bagged saying, "How could PCGS no-grade this lovely original coin, blah, blah, blah. They've lost a customer with this shoddy treatment, etc." Many members jumped on the bandwagon and condemmed this "poor grading" of the coin by PCGS. So I contacted the person and had him send the coin in. It turned out to be a laughable, blatantly whizzed POS.
As for the recent post you're asking about, this person is definitely not using the right approach to problem solving. If he has a problem he should contact me and if something is truly wrong, I'll make sure it gets fixed. But going on the message board and asking members for "help" just isn't logical, since none of you can fix his problem...if he indeed does have a problem. PCGS does not want to screw any of its customers and we always take care of business. If we make a mistake, we make it right...period, end of story. And anybody that tells you different is probably lying to you about other things as well.
Like the Beatles said..."Anytime at all...all you gotta do is call."
<< <i>IF, that is IF, hypothetically, Karl is correct about the lineage of this coin. What then???? >>
hey dcamfranklin, i stand behind that scenario i presented, which i won't reproduce here for obvious fear of banishment. lemme just say this, what i stated before has completely accurate. anyone got a copy of the thread stored away somewhere?
<< <i>I have to believe though that this issue goes far beyond a Norweb AU/MS coin. It probably speaks to the nature of all third party grading services and what they really stand for and who they cater to. I find it hard to believe that $1500 will cause such an uproar. However, the largest avalanches awalys start as a small crack or fissure in the snow. I really think there huge ramifications involved with this matter that none of you have even considered. Think about it carefully. I don't think this matter will be swept under the rug, quickly or cheaply. >>
(my bolds) frattlaw, you don't know how right you are. the jadeboys have unwittingly stumbled upon something that is way, way bigger than they or most of you forum members imagine. i know this to be a fact.
finally, it's worth quoting bulldog's entire earlier post:
<< <i>I followed the whole Jade Coin Debacle. Seems PCGS pedigreed a coin, The coin was not listed in the pedigreed catalog, Jade brought this to the attention of PCGS, PCGS said "oops", reholdered the coin sans pedigree with no explanation. Sent the coin back in its new plastic dungeon and that was all that was supposed to happen to it, according to PCGS.
On the other hand, Jade bought the coin for a customer, delivered the coin to the customer, Customer refused the coin, since it was not in the pedigree catalog. PCGS reholdered it without the pedigree. Jade was left SOL $$$$$ as the coin became much less valuable without the pedigree(?).
Jade contested the reholdering without consent, or explanation from PCGS, and put PCGS to task, for their deeds.
Now you know the rest of the story!
I do not know, what went on behind the scenes, if anything. At any rate it makes no difference to me. What is important here is the reaction by PCGS, to this situation.
I read the complaints from other board members about this thread. Most are not in favor of PCGS reaction to jade coin. So what are we going to do about it? Nothing I am sure. We are collectively going to say "what a shame" and continue to deal with Homerunfoul as nothing ever happened.
I am not advocating boycotting PCGS on the purchase of coins. But would it not be nice to boycott the Hall guy on his *itchnight. Or refuse to bow to him when passing in the hall.
The dynamics of all this, is our own greed and selfishness. Don't *iss the God off or he will body bag my next submission, downgrade a coin or two of mine, or what ever. Personally, I could care less about Hall, his thin skin, arrogance or his ability to scare little people.
If this is how a supposed, professional company is run, God help the coin industry and those that support it!
Bulldog >>
brilliantly stated, and the most insightful post seen on the forum in a long, long time.
i was going to do my usual morning look-through at other threads to see what's new, didn't expect to see this situation this morming. guess i'm through w/ it for now.
K S
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
FanOfModerns seems to post in the same senseless verbiage as Doops, however the spelling is better.
SuperCoin>
<< <i> think jadecoin handled some of what he did poorly (and said so in that thread) but PCGS had an opportunity to take the high-road anyway, work it out, and get a positive follow-up post about how they made things right. >>
You are so right!. $1500 to make the deal good and remove any doubt as exectly where PCGS stands with guaranty is EXTREMELY cheap POSITIVE publicity.
As things now appear to stand, PCGS saved $1500 bucks and probably generated several hundred thousand dollars of NEGATIVE publicity. This "episode" would make an interesting thread across the street that PCGS could not delete, and if CoinWorld or some other trade rag decided to try a follow-up, ?????
Before had all the information and a slab number. Second picture had the same coin and slab number, but no NORWEB! Is that trully hard to correct and make a customer happy! They always state with a reholder service that nothing changes, and I see that isn't so.
I will miss them on this forum, but I can travel accross the street and visit them their!!
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Joe
Instead, they "screw"-up again by creating lots of free NEGATIVE publicity????
Jadecoin, I'll see you accross the street.