Sad, but not surprising at all. You just cannot start dragging attorneys comments, etc into a public forum and (indirectly or directly) bash the forum owner.
Regarding Michael's (Frattlaw) warning that this issue has a much bigger picture to it, I think he's right. It is probable that a goodly proportion of the good folks in our industry (or, hobby!) don't recognize the non-public yet not-so-secret goings-on, but it speaks volumes about the laissez-faire attitude of the industry's so-called leaders.
Additionally, I know that this whole mess came about because of a David-v-Goliath situation involving a specific Goliath (i.e., PCGS), but don't think that the issues to which Michael alluded is specific to PCGS or even to a small fry getting chomped on by a big fish.
If I had to guess, if there is litigation in the works PCGS attorneys may have told them to pull everything relating to the lawsuit pending. We just don't know and we will likely never know until it is resolved and still we will likely not know everything. I very sad to see this happen as Jadecoin has always been a great contributor here on the boards and he will be missed. I hope this issue is resolved quickly and I have my fingers crossed that he is allowed back on the boards, I also hope he chooses to come back.
A blatant error was done, not once but twice, and there is no culpability.
To coin the phrase of another member, the coin business remains the wild west of collecting!
I wish someone from PCGS would come and provide an explanation versus all this conjecture. Or will they wait until this thread gets longer and longer to come and tell us we are all wrong?
Jadecoin was a straight shooter who got caught in the big boys game. This really $uck$.
<< <i>Seems to me we ought to wait and hear PCGS's side of the story. >>
Steve,
They had ample opportunity to do that and should have long before the original thread reached over 300 replies. What makes you think they will do so now? I'd really love to hear their side because a big part of me doesn't want to believe that their reaction was what it appears to be. But, I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to materialize.
It is always a shame to see anyone leave....yet we must remember that this is still a Collectors Universe board....we all don't know all sides...I would ask that CU perhaps respond with a post...even if it is just as many members suggested "lawsuit pending" or "violated our rules" etc.... until then such is life.....
Pretty pathetic IMO. PCGS was getting a pretty stout defense by TradeDollarNut and others. It wasn't like it was a one sided piling on. I think the action of pulling the threads and banning Jadecoin, if true, lend more credibility to Jadecoins assertions and show a consciousness of fault by PCGS.
I did not follow the thread that gave Jade the ax. But I did buy a coin from Jade, excellent communication, accurate description, and they even told me where the coin was purchased. They are definately for the collector, one of the few dealers who will crack a slabbed coin and sell it raw because of an overgrade.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Jadecoin was screwed, and then royally screwed. "Buy the coin and not the holder" has never been more true. Since PCGS is in the holdering business, this can not possibly be good PR/business/precedent for them. Strikeouthall should be ashamed. And am I right that about $1,500 would have made everyone happy?
Thank you DCAM - It's been a while since I've stepped next door. I was surprised to see that Jadecoin has not taken any legal action thus far and they still got banned.
PCGS's decision to ban Jadecoin doesn't make sense. Maybe that's why CLCT is rated as a "strong sell" by many analysts.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
sure looks it from here. PCGS you have to remember what comes around go around and all the banning member you're doing is going to come back and bit you in the A$$. I like you guys and won't want to see that happen so smarten up.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
FanofModerns - Thanks for injecting some comic relief. At least you don't have to worry about getting banned as dumb posts have never been a basis for ejecting anyone off these boards.
I don't have the time to read this whole thread, but it reminds me of what happens on the eBay forums. Say whatever you want, but don't even think about getting in the way of the bottom line.
For those trying to make a correlation between Jadecoin's banishment and CU's stock price, there is none. CU's stock, like just about any stock, will be priced on the basis of its revenues, earnings, balance sheet, growth rate, etc. The big money, which is not wielded by the coin collecting community, will buy/sell the stock on the basis of how profitable Cu is and how quickly this profit is growing. Any silly disputes between a party and CU/PCGS has no bearing and will continue to have no bearing on the stock.
I will miss Jadecoin's presence here. I met James and bought a coin from him in St. Louis last month. He is a nice guy and did not deserve the treatment he received here.
<< <i>Just got an E-Mail from James. Explained at Jadecoin's website. >>
don't see much explaining going on there yet, but at least they put the before & after back up.
K S >>
Karl- Well they are revealing the details of the coins, as determined by sworn testimony, across the street and it looks like PCGS should have kept them as friends, not try to pi$$ them off. Though I can understand their need to avoid the embarrassment.
<- Is becoming more and more unhappy with these boards. Hey PCGS What the hell is wrong with you, if you keep doing this you will be left with uncontributing noobs and Laura Sperber who will never be banned no matter what!!! (Not that I want her to be)
I'll have to go to their web site and register to use their message board to see if I can find some familiar early coin specialist friends there.
Stuart,
You will be welcome there for sure. I am there regularly, and Cardinal goes there too. Today, I think I saw Nysoto. BillJones is there. Julian Leidman goes there too. And, of course, the Jade chaps are there. In short, you'll find a goodly number of Early aficionados there.
If PCGS reholdered a coin of mine and left the pedigree off, the last thing i would do is start complaining about it here. I would politely encourage them to fix the problem.
Then, if nothing happened even after repeatedly working on the problem in tactfull ways, then i would threaten to take the issue public. And, i would even do that politely.
Then if nothing happened and i was sure nothing was going to happen, i would make it public. I would file suit and send copies of the petition to Numismatic News and Coin World. (Walk softly and carry a big stick.)
My suspicions are though, and they are just that, that Jadecoin may have shot his pistol prematurely.
It's like someone giving you a negative. You don't retaliate. You try to make them happy by fixing the problem and ask them to solve the problem through whatever channels are there to get the negative removed (no, i've never gotton a negative.)
To retaliate is what you do after you can't accomplish the mission. It's what you do last, not first.
I find it hard to believe that after all the interest in this thread and topic that you do not respect the members enough to come forth with some kind of a response. Many here would like to understand this issue.
"For those trying to make a correlation between Jadecoin's banishment and CU's stock price, there is none. CU's stock, like just about any stock, will be priced on the basis of its revenues, earnings, balance sheet, growth rate, etc. The big money, which is not wielded by the coin collecting community, will buy/sell the stock on the basis of how profitable Cu is and how quickly this profit is growing. Any silly disputes between a party and CU/PCGS has no bearing and will continue to have no bearing on the stock." --RYK
I beg to respectfully disagree. The way PCGS is managed has everything to do with the stock price. I'm not saying that Jadecoin's banishment alone is a driving factor, but it is indicative of the way management deals with customer service related issues, and hence is indirectly related to the stock price.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
While reading what i have written below, keep in mind that i did not get a chance to read the removed thread.
With regard to......"I agree but is this a reason for punishment [banishment & stuck with THE coin]? Seems a bit harsh and vengeful. The PCGS silence is deafening."......
What i would have done if i were PCGS is make a behind the scenes deal with Jadecoin. I would have tried to get Jadecoin to shut up and remove the thread or publish an update in exchange for a promise to fix the problem.
Yes, i know that that move might make some people think "well i guess that move would cause all of us to conclude that all we would have to do is complain here and every problem will get fixed". That's the "floodgate" argument. Probably has some validity, but even if it were for the most part true, oh well, time to be more careful and clean up internal systems.
When you make a mistake (something everyone does, believe it or not) you can actually turn that into a positive by showing customers that you care about them by consistently being willing to do what it right. We studied "how to fix and how not to fix screwups" in my MBA program a few years ago.
Anyway, the Japanese have turned "fixing the screw-up" into a fine art. You might be interested in studying it.
I screw up. Sometimes I ship a coin late. I try to always apologize and give them money off on their next purchase.
David Hall is probably possessed of a very high IQ. But he may never have studied business management. He may not even have ever picked up a book on business management. But look what he has done. He has helped every single one of us by protecting us from unscrupulous dealers. Let's try to remember that.
He too isn't perfect. He or one of his people probably read the thread, saw something really inflamatory and pulled the trigger. We all should try to put ourselves in both of their shoes so that we can get a real handle on the situation before judging the retaliation. Empathizing is easy for us to do that when it comes to thinking about Jadecoin because we too could get the boot. It's a little tougher to put ourselves in David Hall's shoes ("I spend thousand every year to give them this free forum and he types WHAT????!!!!") or the moderator's shoes (mantra "when in doubt, drop it out") but it's probably worthy of a few seconds thoughts.
That's a shame. I was really wanting to see PCGS step up and show us all they really care about the little guy too.. I don't know anything about pedegrees or if Jadecoins handle all this the right way or not..I just feel like PCGS missed a great opportunity to do something publicly here, after all it was made public here.... jmo
I'm just surprised this thread is still up, quite frankly...
Just My 2 Cents, Big Mike <><
Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all that he has done. --Colossians 2:7
Well, I'm away on business for a few days and I return to find that JadeCoin is banished. Did he ever try to call PCGS so that the issue could be discussed?
I know that Dennis showed the coin to David Hall prior to the provenance being removed and that afterwards he sent a letter to PCGS stating his position, but why wouldn't he just pickup the phone and call? Did he do this?
They missed an opportunity for good PR with some of their more vocal customers. This issue has spread all over the net (several realted threads on NGC's site). I am still anxious to find out the final outcome.
Comments
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Sad, but not surprising at all. You just cannot start dragging attorneys comments, etc into a public forum and (indirectly or directly) bash the forum owner.
Free Trial
Additionally, I know that this whole mess came about because of a David-v-Goliath situation involving a specific Goliath (i.e., PCGS), but don't think that the issues to which Michael alluded is specific to PCGS or even to a small fry getting chomped on by a big fish.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I worked in customer support for years and handled some in my own company. Hall's way is very unprofessional.
W.C. Fields
I very sad to see this happen as Jadecoin has always been a great contributor here on the boards and he will be missed. I hope this issue is resolved quickly and I have my fingers crossed that he is allowed back on the boards, I also hope he chooses to come back.
J&J Coins
website
Wild Ebay Toners for sale
The big O
A blatant error was done, not once but twice, and there is no culpability.
To coin the phrase of another member, the coin business remains the wild west of collecting!
I wish someone from PCGS would come and provide an explanation versus all this conjecture. Or will they wait until this thread gets longer and longer to come and tell us we are all wrong?
Jadecoin was a straight shooter who got caught in the big boys game. This really $uck$.
<< <i>Seems to me we ought to wait and hear PCGS's side of the story. >>
Steve,
They had ample opportunity to do that and should have long before the original thread reached over 300 replies. What makes you think they will do so now? I'd really love to hear their side because a big part of me doesn't want to believe that their reaction was what it appears to be. But, I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to materialize.
Russ, NCNE
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
J&J Coins
website
Wild Ebay Toners for sale
The big O
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Explained at Jadecoin's website.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>Just got an E-Mail from James. Explained at Jadecoin's website. >>
don't see much explaining going on there yet, but at least they put the before & after back up.
K S
K S
<< <i>"Did we get screwed by PCGS?" >>
sure looks it from here.
PCGS you have to remember what comes around go around and all the banning member you're doing is going to come back and bit you in the A$$. I like you guys and won't want to see that happen so smarten up.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
In memory of Jadecoin
We ARE watching you.
I will miss Jadecoin's presence here. I met James and bought a coin from him in St. Louis last month. He is a nice guy and did not deserve the treatment he received here.
Robert
<< <i>
<< <i>Just got an E-Mail from James. Explained at Jadecoin's website. >>
don't see much explaining going on there yet, but at least they put the before & after back up.
K S >>
Karl- Well they are revealing the details of the coins, as determined by sworn testimony, across the street and it looks like PCGS should have kept them as friends, not try to pi$$ them off. Though I can understand their need to avoid the embarrassment.
I'll have to go to their web site and register to use their message board to see if I can find some familiar early coin specialist friends there.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Stuart,
You will be welcome there for sure. I am there regularly, and Cardinal goes there too. Today, I think I saw Nysoto. BillJones is there. Julian Leidman goes there too. And, of course, the Jade chaps are there. In short, you'll find a goodly number of Early aficionados there.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Chicken!
Rats. I didn't figure on the disgruntlement factor... I still think PCGS would have ponied up if jadecoin had swalled his pride and called Hall.
So, PM me your address or Paypal e-mail and I'll get your $50 wager winnings off to you.
I still think PCGS would have ponied up if jadecoin had swalled his pride and called Hall.
I agree 100%. I was sweating the fact that I didn't exclude the grade guaranty.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
If PCGS reholdered a coin of mine and left the pedigree off, the last thing i would do is start complaining about it here. I would politely encourage them to fix the problem.
Then, if nothing happened even after repeatedly working on the problem in tactfull ways, then i would threaten to take the issue public. And, i would even do that politely.
Then if nothing happened and i was sure nothing was going to happen, i would make it public. I would file suit and send copies of the petition to Numismatic News and Coin World. (Walk softly and carry a big stick.)
My suspicions are though, and they are just that, that Jadecoin may have shot his pistol prematurely.
It's like someone giving you a negative. You don't retaliate. You try to make them happy by fixing the problem and ask them to solve the problem through whatever channels are there to get the negative removed (no, i've never gotton a negative.)
To retaliate is what you do after you can't accomplish the mission. It's what you do last, not first.
Just my thoughts.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I agree but is this a reason for punishment [banishment & stuck with THE coin]? Seems a bit harsh and vengeful. The PCGS silence is deafening.
I find it hard to believe that after all the interest in this thread and topic that you do not respect the members enough to come forth with some kind of a response. Many here would like to understand this issue.
Please find the time to help us understand.
I read the NGC board as well....lotta bashing going on
I take no side either way but wish that the pure truth on this would come out.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I beg to respectfully disagree. The way PCGS is managed has everything to do with the stock price. I'm not saying that Jadecoin's banishment alone is a driving factor, but it is indicative of the way management deals with customer service related issues, and hence is indirectly related to the stock price.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
With regard to......"I agree but is this a reason for punishment [banishment & stuck with THE coin]? Seems a bit harsh and vengeful. The PCGS silence is deafening."......
What i would have done if i were PCGS is make a behind the scenes deal with Jadecoin. I would have tried to get Jadecoin to shut up and remove the thread or publish an update in exchange for a promise to fix the problem.
Yes, i know that that move might make some people think "well i guess that move would cause all of us to conclude that all we would have to do is complain here and every problem will get fixed". That's the "floodgate" argument. Probably has some validity, but even if it were for the most part true, oh well, time to be more careful and clean up internal systems.
When you make a mistake (something everyone does, believe it or not) you can actually turn that into a positive by showing customers that you care about them by consistently being willing to do what it right. We studied "how to fix and how not to fix screwups" in my MBA program a few years ago.
Anyway, the Japanese have turned "fixing the screw-up" into a fine art. You might be interested in studying it.
I screw up. Sometimes I ship a coin late. I try to always apologize and give them money off on their next purchase.
David Hall is probably possessed of a very high IQ. But he may never have studied business management. He may not even have ever picked up a book on business management. But look what he has done. He has helped every single one of us by protecting us from unscrupulous dealers. Let's try to remember that.
He too isn't perfect. He or one of his people probably read the thread, saw something really inflamatory and pulled the trigger. We all should try to put ourselves in both of their shoes so that we can get a real handle on the situation before judging the retaliation. Empathizing is easy for us to do that when it comes to thinking about Jadecoin because we too could get the boot. It's a little tougher to put ourselves in David Hall's shoes ("I spend thousand every year to give them this free forum and he types WHAT????!!!!") or the moderator's shoes (mantra "when in doubt, drop it out") but it's probably worthy of a few seconds thoughts.
Anyway...
<< <i>The PCGS silence is deafening."...... >>
I agree someone around here should speak up.
09/07/2006
Big Mike <><
Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all that he has done. --Colossians 2:7
I know that Dennis showed the coin to David Hall prior to the provenance being removed and that afterwards he sent a letter to PCGS stating his position, but why wouldn't he just pickup the phone and call? Did he do this?