Can anyone explain these crossover results to me?? (New Pic)

Lakesammman · September 3, 2003 1:59PM

Submitted cross at any grade. How can 2 come back as DNC?? I won't discuss the merits of the coins as that is subjective.

I can tell you the 1905 is a great coin that brought 2k at auction and was/is a NGC 66 R coin.

1 90115790 1905 1C DNC
2 90115791 1908 1C Artificial Color
3 90115792 1906 1C MS64RD
4 90115793 1898 1C DNC
5 90115794 1874 1C MS65RD

Russ · September 3, 2003 2:01PM

I'm at a loss for words.

Russ, NCNE

Lakesammman · September 3, 2003 2:02PM

Russ: Your too fast.

I hit the enter button instead of tab and it posted only the title......after 2000 posts, I'm still a rookie.

cherrypickincoin · September 3, 2003 2:08PM

Send 'em in as regrades, that's the only way you'll get any luck with PCGS.

Russ · September 3, 2003 2:14PM

Tim,

Somebody else had a result like this recently. A cross at any grade with both DNCs and an AT in the results. Really doesn't make any sense unless they aren't reading the submission form. Have you got the coins back? And, if so, was the AT'd result still in the original holder or bodybagged?

Russ, NCNE

toothpuller · September 3, 2003 2:25PM

That is really confusing. Here is the thread that Russ is referring to with both the artificial color and DNC results with a similar cross at any grade request.

I thought PCGS was starting to lighten up a bit on copper.

Newmismatist · September 3, 2003 2:28PM

Looks like you hit the jackpot - the 1905 is still in the holder, still a MS66RD, probably looks just as nice as when you bought it, so on that coin you "won" - they could have put it in a MS64RB holder & then . . . .

If you subscribe to the "BUY the COIN, NOT the PLASTIC" - does it really make any difference in which of the 2 major services' plastic holder your PQ coin ends up?

(On the other hand if its an over-graded POS, it probably doesn't matter either, 'cause you should sell it PDQ - then you don't have to worry about it at all!)

BUT if you're trying to cross it to sell it for a +++ profit - then it matters - but only to the buyer who insists on a particular plastic holder w/o consideration to the coin that's actually in the holder -

Or to be blunt: Which is more important - the paper insert?, the name on the plastic? or the coin in the holder?

Before grading services, we used to collect nice coins - now we collect plastic with paper opinions - whatever happened to the COIN collectors??

Where have all the flowers gone?

Lakesammman · September 3, 2003 2:48PM

Russ:

Not sure what's up. Just got the email today. Coins shipped today, probably will arrive Friday or Monday. I still like the coins - just thought it would be fun to try and complete the registry set.....

Will let you know when they arrive.

I thought the 1906 would 65. The 1874 is a bit of a gift.....a so-so NGC MS66R. The 1898 is a killer 67R NGC, S25 with a MPD in denticles, purchased from Shylock. The 1905 and 1908 nicer than most PCGS 66's. I expected to take some lumps but not this bad!

Ron - I'm still a coin collector but I'm younger than you - what does a raw coin really feel like??

dragon · September 3, 2003 3:05PM

First, the services are insane these days on copper, so nothing would surprise me, and I would never crack out copper due to the subsequent possibility of a bodybag.

It's my understanding that if you request a cross at any grade and PCGS still labels it as a DNC, that means they think it's a problem coin and not gradable at PCGS at any grade. THe other possibility is they did not understand the cross at any grade request.

In summary, coppers at the services are a complete roll of the dice these days, they are nervous and very conservative IMO as so many have been played with, recolored, heat treated, retoned, etc.

dragon

Lakesammman · September 3, 2003 3:07PM

Dragon:

So what your saying is, the flunky in the crack out room is really grading the coins before they get to the graders??

Newmismatist · September 3, 2003 3:08PM

Lakesammman

Remember the back seat of your first car & the first girl you REALLY made out with - remember that rush - that excitement!!

THAT's what a GEM PROOF $20 feels like raw - you have to caress it Verrry carefully - too fast or too quick & it bolts - gone forever - Owned a 1879 Flowing hair Stell, the Eliasberg 1909 Proof $20 & the Amon Carter 1868 Proof $20 - All raw & all GEM - (sex is better, but it doesn't last as long - I owned those babies for 10-15 years - also owned an 1826 $5 - probably grade MS64 today - fondled everyone - like a porcupine makes love - veeerrrry carefully)

Lakesammman · September 3, 2003 3:22PM

Good thing it's getting late....hope the kids don't read this tomorrow....not sure about the back seat but did have a friend who had a mattress in the back of his El Camino........

Not much doubt where THAT date was headed.

What was the original thought process in this thread......???

Placid · September 3, 2003 3:25PM

PCGS will explain it to you when you get the coins back

Newmismatist · September 3, 2003 3:35PM

<< <i>What was the original thought process in this thread......??? >>

Well I thought it was pretty much about getting *$#&*'d by the grading services - which is not quite as fun as that mattress in the El Camino -
(or as a client of mine once asked a judge when heard heard the property division in his divorce case:
Client: Do I get a kiss too?
Judge: Why would you get a kiss?
Client: Because when I get *$#&*'d, I usually get a kiss.

- He got 10 days for contempt - but he got out in 3 - apparently the Judge had no sense of humor -

BTW did you get a kiss from PCGS?)

Lakesammman · September 3, 2003 3:52PM

Hey....I like that reply.........

Great comeback. I'll have to try that on the hospital administration at the next meeting. They're humorless too.

mdwoods · September 3, 2003 4:09PM

They're humorless too.

I work with an engineer. If I tell a joke, I have to almost announce that it is a joke so he can be prepared to switch out of his always serious mode.
Too bad about your DNCs, I had one recently with no explanation. I've been meaning to call customer service and ask about it.

IrishMike · September 3, 2003 8:36PM

Tim, you don't have to cross them to have fun with the registry set phenomenom. You are just limiting yourself to a registry that only includes PCGS coins.

I hear the registry across the street calling your name. I thought I would start a 64 Red/65 Red Brown set here, but I found too many appealing IHC's in NGC holders and I will not attempt to crossover just to put them in a set. Quite frankly it is beneath my principles to ever try. Why spend hours searching for appealing, solid for the grade coins only to have someone look at them for ten seconds and disagree. I am way too old for that aggravation.

OT, that 77 is the most beautiful 77 I have ever seen, including SB's 66. Would you have purchased it in an NGC holder?

izzy452 · September 3, 2003 9:51PM

It happened to me recently. I received a DNC on a crossover. It was do to the coin having light cleaning.

Walt

Barry · September 3, 2003 9:58PM

<< <i>It happened to me recently. I received a DNC on a crossover. It was do to the coin having light cleaning.

Walt >>

Uh oh, time for another grammar lesson from Baley...
do & due (and doo?)

izzy452 · September 3, 2003 10:14PM

Oh wow, DO you think I will get slaped on the hands with a ruler?

I still remember that from Catholic school.

Walt

Wisconsin · September 3, 2003 10:49PM

I'm expecting some crossover results in a couple of days. I figured it to be a n o problem experience. Now you have me worried

Lakesammman · September 3, 2003 11:34PM

Mike:

Complementing a coin isn't OT

The 77 is a PCGS 66RB.

Will let you know if the coins are in bags or holders when they arrive.

BillJones · September 4, 2003 12:17AM

The bottom line is that these people who grade coins for the major services are no better at their job than many of us who have been studying coins for many years.

There are a couple reasons for this.

First, the slab graders do things on an assembly line type of operation. They can’t spend the time to really study a coin because they have quotas to meet and precious little time to do the job consistently and correctly.

Second, it’s hard to find graders who are experts in every field. A grader who knows a lot about Morgan dollars, Walking Liberty half dollars and commemorative coins might know very little about early copper. Yet, there he or she is passing judgments that can affect the value of a coin by thousands of dollars. From what I’ve seen the graders at both PCGS and NGC leave a lot be desired when it comes to grading copper.

To me crossovers between PCGS and NGC are a total waste of money. In dealer to dealer transactions, it’s THE COIN that counts, not the plastic. I agree with earlier posts that it’s a darn shame that we can’t get back to collecting coins and not holders.

Placid · September 4, 2003 12:22AM

I am not sure I understand that. What does doing a crossover at any grade have to do with collecting holders?
That tells me the person cares more about the coin than the grade on the slab.
Some people just like their collection to be uniform and are willing to pay for it.

Lakesammman · September 8, 2003 2:48AM

Well, the coins arrived today.
1906 NGC 66R PCGS 64R
1874 NGC 66R PCGS 65R

The following are still in NGC holders in spite of "Cross at any Grade"

1898 NGC 67R
1908 NGC 66R
1905 NGC 66R

Oh well....guess I won't be wasting my money on regrades again in the future!

Russ · September 8, 2003 3:08AM

Tim,

I just got a DNC on an NGC MS64RB 1869 Two Center. It looked about one point overgraded, so I put a minimum grade of 63RB on the submission. I'm going to crack it out and submit it raw. What do you want to bet it gets graded at 63RB?

Russ, NCNE

jeffnpcb · September 8, 2003 3:17AM

AS far as a reply from PCGS and Russ' raw submission, do I see a cold front moving into hell with possible freeze warnings?

IrishMike · September 8, 2003 3:44AM

Yikes, Tim! Well HRH did say these are difficult coins to grade, but a two point drop on the 06???. It would be interesting to see a photo of it.

Placid · September 8, 2003 4:24AM

No tags on the dnc ones?

shylock · September 8, 2003 4:54AM

They didn't want to increase the 98 & 05 pops yet couldn't downgrade them with a straight face, so they just sent them back to you. You have to state that you don't want them to do that on the invoice!

I'm trying to imagine the 1906 in a 64RD slab, it must look odd. It's as mint fresh looking an IH as you'll ever see, hard to believe they don't at least consider it a gem.

toothpuller · September 8, 2003 9:53AM

So a 1906 PCGS MS64RD goes for about $200 for a very PQ example. Lakes, do you want to sell it, as I am a more than willing buyer? All kidding aside, I cannot understand what is going on with that grading. They must be really, really paranoid about the color guarantee. Anyone know of any recent payouts by PCGS? The pop on the 06 66RD has gone up by two recently [to 13], so they must think that have hit their quota for a while, but why not even a 65. Its turning into a real crapshoot.

You are very lucky that PCGS didn't follow your instructions on the others to cross at any grade.

Please ask DH [in the Q & A forum] what gives and be sure to mention the NGC grades on all five coins.

Lakesammman · September 8, 2003 11:04AM

Here's the dog - I can see why it only graded 64R........should have sent it to SEGS.

toothpuller · September 8, 2003 11:20AM

I can't see much wrong, maybe a little teeny bit light in the feather tips. Hard to say from the image, may not be. Looks 66 or very high 65 at the least. It may be better than my 66 and is way better than my 65. If they didn't like the color they should not have net graded it. Very strange and very poor grading.

Personally, I think your coins scared the hell out of them.

Lakesammman · September 8, 2003 11:26AM

I'm getting to the point where I don't care about the plastic. The market recognizes a overgraded dog and they reward a undergraded nice coin. Bottom line is, the coin will bring what it will bring no matter what the plastic is that surrounds it.

IrishMike · September 8, 2003 11:47AM

If that photo accurately depicts the coin and I have no doubt it does, then PCGS should give up grading IHC's. That is a lock 65 and probably a 66 just as NGC had it. They blew it on my last IHC submission to them also.

boiler78 · September 8, 2003 12:02PM

Man would I love to have a complete set of 64rd Indians that looked like that!

Newmismatist · September 8, 2003 5:30PM

Lakesammman

I'll take that 1906 "dog" off your hands

- (double bid!- whoops there's no "bid" on RDs is there?) - I agree with someone else's comment that they did you a favor by returning the DNCs in the same holders - Isn't this the thread about sex (or a reasonable facsimile thereof???

Lakesammman · September 8, 2003 11:21PM

Newmy

Agree - if that 67R had come back as a 64R or in a BB, I'd have REALLY been pi$$ed!

Can anyone explain these crossover results to me?? (New Pic)

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