i have a couple of direct questions that grew from reading your strange responses to the thread replies. why did you choose to use PCGS as your subject both here and at the NGC forum? why would you choose to acknowledge agreement but to ignore disagreement? what is the real issue of this thread?
your structure of the initial post was a bit contentious to begin with since it's my understanding from reading your forum replies that you aren't involved with the modern market accept as a critic.i guess that's OK but it seems rather biased. it doesn't take much "reading between the lines" to arrive at that as some members obviously have.
i would ask again, since you pose several questions in your first post, what was your chief motivation in starting this thread? one question, please.
NewmisEd I can assure you that Doug does not collect plastic, having personally viewed his top quality and top grade set of early Lincoln proofs just two weeks ago in his office. They would stand alone as superior in quality and grade outside of the plastic. His type coins are all of superior quality for the grade as well. It was a great pleasure to view them in person!
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
i thought i'd have a reply while i was shaving. oh well, i'll wait.
thanks for the NGC link, Sam. i find it humorous, Michael, that you think you were flamed over here. all that happened was that a few members didn't agree with the even-mindedness of posting a thread on two competitors forums while singling out one, PCGS, and they questioned that. quite simple, really. if you think you were flamed you must not pay attention here!!!
another interesting point in you replies, to wit----if you look inside yourself there you will find the answers you seek but i must admit you might not like what you see but it is there nonetheless anger and fear never got anyone anywhere
i understand that if each of us cannot accept criticism, we don't deserve praise. that can also be deduced with some healthy self-examination. what part of your initial post scares you?? what part of the replies that angered you are you afraid of and why??
Interesting question, Michael. As for the Dark Side, it would have no impact at all.
As for the US coin market, since there are several different ways to interpret Michael's question, there are a variety of possible outcomes. If all the TPGs went south because the market crashed, as Mitch & Greg suggest, then it's a matter of why they went south. I do not agree that "The closing of PCGS or any coin related organization would be the result of, not the cause of a crash." Businesses fold all of the time, not just during crashes. There has long been speculation on these boards about what happens when all the coins worth slabbing already are slabbed. One would suppose that the business volume entering the TPG houses would fall and, one by one (the weakest first), each would go out of business as the business volume sank below the minimum costs of operation. There are also a variety of reasons why a single business like CLCT could close far short of any such drastic examples.
Now, if just PCGS went belly up, well, it would no doubt be a boon for NGC, at least for a while as a new competitor entering the market would not be unlikely. Since NGC's registry would be the only such game in town, certainly ANACS or someone else would seriously contemplate starting one too (albeit with far less credibility). NGC's registry, already being inclusive of PCGS-slabbed coins, would be a natural venue for "disposessed" Registry collectors to hightail it to. Even if a bunch of PCGS veterans started up their own outfit, it would take time for it to establish itself sufficiently for its registry to become accepted. Furthermore, since PCGS population reports would no longer be maintained, PCGS poptops would lose a little of their premium because ... well, how would you know anymore? That would tend to encourage people to migrate their PCGS coins to NGC slabs "to be sure," especially since they'd be "the best game in town" at least for the interim, if not long term. The valuations of condition rarities would drop simply because of the uncertainties; moreover, a number of collectors would bail and sell out at dramatic losses, which would also reduce top valuations. These depressed valuations would migrate to the NGC registry, where they would begin to rise as conditions and confidence stabilized.
"Michael, are you going to run accross the street and cry everytime you get into a fight on the playground. Any one who is big enough to present a question on this Forum should be big enough to take the hits. Had you presented the question at the water cooler using NGC, it would have been a worthwhile exercise in compairing the responses. "
Bear, Keets, Craig: My UNEDITED original comment still remains on page 1. My opinion expressed in it was neither "slanderous", hostile, filthy, etc. I simply questioned Michael on a peculiar observation I made that he was raising the demise of PCGS and its Registry on both the PCGS and NGC message boards. Coupled with the track record of "modern bashing", PCGS "plastic" bashing, etc., it appeared to me to be a direct slam against PCGS (obviously others agreed). Ironically, it was Michael who then "attacked" me with the litany of "look in the mirror" remarks (here and elsewhere) and I still ignored his attacks and have yet to say anything against him, and will continue not to.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Askari; There is very little danger that the services will ever run out of coins to grade. There are what, maybe 10 million coins graded but nearly a trillion have been minted and two out of three survive. There are also many millions of tokens and medals and if they ever hit a slack time then there are many other collectibles fields which might benefit from authentication and grading. More importantly collectors' tastes are always evolving and most coins will be sent in again to be compared to these new tastes.
It's difficult to believe that a successfull TPG will just go out of business. Oh sure, things could begin going poorly and conditions continue to worsen to the point that bankruptcy is the only course, but this would happen over a period of time. The market would adjust. People would move on with their life even before the fact and the actual failure would be an anticlimax. In any case PCGS does not twist peoples arms to get submissions nor do they force people to participate in the registries. People were actually starting to collect the high grade coins BEFORE the third party graders and they'll likely be collecting them after.
The internet isn't going away, the registries aren't going away, and collecting coins isn't going away. At some point all these will cease to exist, just don't look for it anytime soon.
As for this thread is concerned, I think a light-natured observation on another possibility for the demise of PCGS: massive earthquake! BTW, is it possible to buy up future beachfront property about miles or so east of the fault line?
Obviously, this thread is about the value of the plastic and not the coins, as my comments reflect. Thanks for your support!
A coin is only what it is. Plastic is only what it is. When you start believing the coin is what the plastic is, then you have a problem. Sometimes I play the coin game, and sometimes I play the plastic game -- but I never confuse the two!
Regardless of where Michael posted his threads, I believe that the PCGS Set Registry program has resulted in more dramatic and/or out of line prices for certain PCGS coins than the NGC program has for certain NGC coins.
It has also led to a distortion in prices between certain PCGS and NGC coins. I also believe many of those price differences are unwarranted, though I am sure some would disagree.
Knowing Michael, I don't think he favors either PCGS or NGC over the other. In fact, to the contrary, he is a perfect example of someone who "buys the coin, not the holder".
If the roles were reversed and the NGC registry program were producing larger price distortions than the PCGS one were, I think Michael might have very well posted "If NGC grading and its registry were gone tomorrow?" on both forums, instead.
Oh, I have no reason to believe that PCGS is going to slip into the grave anytime soon. My point was more that businesses fail for a greater variety of reasons than market crashes. Even if a product or service is useful, desired and valuable, the company providing it can still go bankrupt. For that matter, the premium prices paid for poptop coins can change. While I don't believe that style of collecting will disappear anytime soon, what's most popular to collect can still bounce around from one coin series to another -- just like it always has -- and that, of course, will affect the market price as much as anything.
LOL, yes I am laughing, Mark I am glad you posted to this thread, I knew you would get it. I don't mean to make light of some of the emotional responses so far, but really some of it is getting way too predictable.
"he is a perfect example of someone who "buys the coin, not the holder". "
Mark: That slogan gets bantered about here quite often. I am sincerely curious what makes someone a "perfect example" of someone who "buys the coin, not the holder". Since I know you deal in only QUALITY coins in slabs anyway, why would the average collector on this board who buys from you generally not be buying the "coin and not the holder"? My simple point being that I would suspect the vast majority of your customer base are "buy the coin, not the holder" customers - right, as are many who have responded here?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Mitch, I'm confident that you are well aware of the fact that many buyers, for various reasons, buy the "holder, not the coin". Michael is not one of them.
As I am on vacation, if you wish to continue this discussion/debate, you will have to do so without me. Enjoy.
About twelve posts that somewhat addressed the questions that were posed in the initial post. Then as usual this thing went south into a personality, slab versus raw, registry versus non registry and assorted other comments that have nothing to do with the original post.
Maybe the original comments were bias against PCGS and Modern coinage but anyone that thinks they were can jump over on the NGC board and post a bias comment about NGC.
Holy Smokes seeing these threads head south constantly gets real old. Why not just answer the questions with a sensible answer and leave it at that.
Yep... I see the Jade Coin thread is still on topic also.
Now my answer.
If PCGS or NGC either went out of business collectors would sorely miss what they have given the hobby. The stability that these two services have provided has made this a much more enjoyable adventure for many collectors. I will guarantee you right now that if these two services were not present not a single coin would be bought sight un-seen. Anyone that remembers the 1980's could probably say the same thing because of the blatant over grading and shady antics of many dealers and advertisers in national publications.
If the Registries were gone..... No Big deal there. Probably I have had contact with just about all of the Merc folks that enjoy the series. As long as I still have thier Email Address I could care less if the Registry stays or leaves. The people make the Registry in my opinion not the plastic.
Which coins would lose the most..... No big deal here either as long as it is not Merc Dimes. Sure I could speculate and say Modern Issues but the statement would be a huge sack of BS because I know nothing about them or the Rarity among some of the coins.
Michael - Good thought provoking question. My thoughts of what vaules would suffer most because of the disappearance of the plastic and registry set concept/grades:
1) "Moderns."
2) Pop 1 Coins. The price curve for those coins sitting on the top of the grading scale for a date/type will flatten, particularly those with a healthy population of coins in the next lower available grade.
3) Designation Coins. The weighting in the registries has created a demand for coins with designations such as CAM, DCAM, FBL, etc. I don't think such demand would last to the degree it now exists.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
well bear and wondercoin and keets for me if you look carefully when cladking mimiced me i responed over there ngc after him
no need for attack but i am going to respond
i posted a thread looking for a post not a personal attack and accusations on me making accusations at me accusing me of my motives that are not true i mean who made you judge jury and executioneer?
lol
and i posted in both boards so what? it is my choice to do so
you judge me try me without ever jusr responding to the thread what are you afraid of? well it must be something
you attack me
wondercoin becomes a victim you show intolerance impatience as you do not let me even post the ngc thread at both places..........lol i did not know i needed your permission to post a simple thread on these boards you take waht i say
wondercoin quotes out of context you have such hate all three of you for me someone you really do not know but you have seen me on here you judge me based on some past posts?? ans your perception?
would you believe that you are innocent until proven guilty
reread my original thread again and please let me know waht is so offensive?? lol
answer the question for you reread the question i originally wrote it is a legit thing to answer
if you choose not to answer please do not attack me and call me names..................lol
stare your answer like many did on the ngc boards and on here! no right or wrong just waht your choices are
i mean yes of course there is something inside you that makes you do this but please do not blame your anger or your life and your choices on me
look at my original thread again
if a major company pcgs was gone tomorrow etc etc........
part one...................lol now if you want to do my work for me you jumped the got and got all hot and bothered well tomorrow put ngc anx icg in your own thread and let me ask you this would you like it if i attacked you guys like this??? like you did me?
There was no need to single out PCGS plastic either here or on the NGC forum. Just a "shot" at PCGS and its Registry IMHO and, in particular, PCGS moderns I suspect.
Wondercoin
yes in your honest opinion wondercoin lol
i did not know your opinion was a statement of judgement and fact as regards to me
yes and you suspect something too also a judgment both of which are not correct
i see you on on the pcgs boards with your arbritary comments that now become facts as you see them and you make the final determination
last time i knew were in the usa not a facist regime
i thought you answered the thread not read into it AND MAKE rash judgments you really should have private mesaage me first and give me a chance to clarify and ISSUES YOU HAVE
i would have been happy to do this
you got all hot and bothered just like you usually do when you feel wronged because of some sort of again fear you have
CONCLUSION: IMHO, this question was raised not to be fair to the issue of the impact of slabs if grading companies were to shut THEIR JOINT doors, but, as a "backdoor" attack on the PCGS Registry. IN THE FUTURE, WHY NOT TAKE A MORE EVENHANDED APPROACH TO YOUR QUERIES - I THINK YOU WILL BE SURPRISED AS TO THE RESPONSES YOU WOULD THEN GET.
Wondercoin
well lets see i did not know i needed your permission thast i had to ask if and give you a game plan that i was going to start this with pcgs and then otheres but since again in your honest opinion you did not private message me to ask me or clarify your issues i was given no time to respond
yes next time i will pm you to ask your permission
yes your conclusion based on your own fear
yes if i happen to talk about ford cars that doesnot mean i am not even handed if i do not mention the other big three
Strange responses - I didn't know Michael believed PCGS was "#1", nor did I believe NGC thought they were "#2"?
Geez - come on guys - NGC has a larger role in the marketplace than to assume that this question is only fair using PCGS and its Registry as the sole example.
There was no need to single out PCGS plastic either here or on the NGC forum. Just a "shot" at PCGS and its Registry IMHO and, in particular, PCGS moderns I suspect.
Wondercoin
oh yes and i understand also wondercoin strange responses as they do not agree with you
LOL
and yes in your honest opinion your opinion based on no fact or a pm to me you come to a conclusion again you are extremely angry
If PCGS ceased to exist it would be smart for NGC to exclude their coins from their registry(just thought more coal on the fire was needed)--------------BigE
My point was simply this - why go to the NGC meesage board and post the EXACT same question there? Since we all greatly respect NGC's position in the maketplace, to be frank - IMHO it is a "slap in face" to go their and ask their readers what would happen if PCGS went out of business and the PCGS Registry collapsed? Ask what would happen if NGC' Registry collapsed if you really care to know the impact on slabs of key companies going out of business - unless, again, the question had a deeper meaning behind it in the first place.
oh yes now i have to ask mitchs permission to go to the ngc boards to ask the same question sorry mitch next time i will get a written permission slip from you
seems to me that i go to both boards everyday one after another and there are some on the other boards thayt do not come here and visa versa again i was not asked in a pm for me to verify
sorry mitch i am glad again in your honest opinion i have ulterior motives i mean mitch wow you must really have met me and got to know me many times in person to be able to judge me so well then try me and then sentance me all based so far on your honest opinions
well mitch again anger and fear
mitch would you believe that in my honest opinion i think you owe me an apology and evenmoreso both boards?
hey if you do not like my posts then why dont you call me or pm me and ask me?? sounds good to me?
Michael: I certainly hope you were not referring to my comments (and opinion, which I am entitled to as well and which was set out without curse words or hyper exchanges), which you chose to not even address. If you come freely to a public message board with a thread like this, you should be prepared to address fair comments like mine. You may not agree with me - I don't expect you to. But, I believe your clear ommission of NGC and its Registry in your thread speaks volumes
yes you are entitled to your opinion and again you doubted my verasity of my statements waht statements??
all i did was post a thread on both boards?? i did not expect you to talk abouit me personally
then that is not an opinion it is slander lookat my original post where did i mention you or slander anyone i posed an interesting question answer it and proved your point LOL do not make it personal against me
your comments were not fair to me mitch you made many assumptions as to the verasity of my statements
now a comment mitch would be towards the registry sets or specific sets thereof not specifically about me
mitch if you look at the original thread i poste where does it say i disagreed with you? all i asked was what if??
and you are supposed to give your what if or more onto the next thread
not well in my honest opinion michale has many ulterior motives and he has the nerve to post a generic thread post with the first amendment on another boards that he frequents all the time and every post he posts on the pcgs nboards he posts on the ngc boards?? think about it mitch
or if not them pm me and ask my why when how??
iwould have told you this is a 3 part series..............lol i did not know i had to follw your rules if i had known you were in charge here i would have asked you lol
niow here is the kicker mitch**************posted a thread and expected some comments"
And you got some. Your anti-modern, anti-PCGS, tacit or express, position was just a bit too "thick" today and I responded, as did Typetone. No biggie; next thread
Wondercoin *************************
wow mitch it was never my intention to be anti modern anti pcgs tactic or was a a bit too think again again mitch judgement unfair judgements against me
all i did was start a thread lol mitch would you believe i have been a collector and been doing this for over 35 years?? also i do many things for kids with coins! i talk to carol the administrator on the pcgs and also people at ngc? they both have helped me with my kids numismatic stuff?
bear and keets and wondercoin anf typetone would you believe..........lol probably not
would you believe i just posted this here to get a good comversation going to see waht the epoples thoughts where on thier series?
has nothing to do with the pAST PRESENT OR FUTURE posts personalities or wahtever...........lol
mitch you think i just go on here to undermine pcgs everyday.............lol
mitch calm down take a chill pill do not get all worked up pm me and ask me
you see the many above posts by me? well just your words and it certianly looks like more of an attack and judgement on me than a comment lol
lol look at my original thread on here did i slander you and make veiled innuendo against you i do not think so??
you started it and that is okie you had a misunderstanding looking into somethinhg so much you found lots that was just not there
i think you owe me personally and these boards an apology
yes my anti basking tactic oh yes that is not a judge jury or exceutioner statement by you......lol it is a compliment by you.......lol
and yes after you bash me well then we can move on and leave me in the dust
mitch would you believe i am not you enemy on here???..................lol
but i guess you really hit me good today and you know what you were totally i will call mistaken
next time pm me and ask me man to man
then afyter your pm if you want to flame me well it is your first amendment right but you have no right to do waht you as pere the above it was ugly uncalled for and just not true slanderous
mitch would you believe that in this country you are presumed innocent until proven guilty i mean pm me and let me know waht i did so offensive on here and ngc??
This isn't my argument Michael, but I saw your thread yesterday before it got a single responce. I expected that within minutes it would turn into yet another in a lomg line of modern bashing threads. My first instinct was to start a classic bashing thread but guess what. People wouldn't respond to it much. This isn't because everyone thinks classics are great. There are lots of people here who don't want to collect classics for a variety of reasons at the current time. But they have better things to do then to slam the people who enjoy collecting, studying, or dealing in something they don't collect. So why doesn't this work both ways?
I was collecting coins before slabs were around and if I am still alive when slabs companies disappear I would still keep collecting. I do not care what slab a coin is in or what the label says I always use the coin to determine my interest. The fact I have bought some GREAT coins in PCI Gold label slabs and NTC slabs proves it actually works when you look at the coin and ignore the label.
Coinguy's assessment was right on. The REGISTRY PROGRAM is PCGS. NGC is so far behind it is laughable. Let's say that again, PCGS is the REGISTRY, at least for now. Their coins bring more money, they are usually stingier on the grades. Using PCGS as an analogy vice NGC is the only way Michael could have phrased this question. PCGS is where the serious money is being spent to gain places in the registry. At NGC it is still more like a club.
Long before 1986, many of us bought and sold raw coins all the time. That was all there was other than some ANACS papered certs. Buyers and sellers had a darn good feel what was a "pop top" type coin back then. It didn't hinder things one bit. Slabs are a convenience and a nice tool to give you a 2nd opinion.
<< <i>if pcgs where to go out of business totally within a week and also the registry set and collector forums where to be gone totally also never to return -what registry set coins would take the biggest hit percentagewise in terms of cash value? >>
Well it's too much trouble to go to the PCGS registry web site & look at all the Registry sets & then go & try & find what prices are being paid for the top POP coins, BUT from what I see in recent auctions, common modern coins (Lincolns, Rosies, State Quarters, Washington Quarters, etc) where there are millions of ungraded coins (maybe billions), but where there are "only" a "few" MS70 / Pr70 (or 69's) coins, those sets/coins are probably ripe for an "Enron" type correction. They're not really rare - the VAST majority have never been sent to the professional grading lottery (think slot machines in Las Vegas - yeah someone eventually will win the jackpot - it just depends on how many "quarters" you're willing to feed into the machine - the real winner is ALWAYS the house). BTW, how many of us can tell the difference between one of those Pr69's & the "elusive, jackpot winner" Pr70? & BTW WHAT is the difference?
So if the registry sets were gone & PCGS also (& presumably NGC too), we'd all have to use our own eyes, & our own skill to determine the good, the bad & the ugly. In the process, we might even learn how to use our own skills to figure out which ones are the godizillas!! -Instead of arguing about how often the services "get it wrong" we'd all be forced to use our own skill, knowledge & judgment to determine what coins are nice, which are nicer & which are nicest - might even be fun!
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
we'd all be forced to use our own skill, knowledge & judgment to determine what coins are nice, which are nicer & which are nicest - might even be fun!
<< <i>Coin showdowns would certainly be more lively. >>
You got that right - us collectors would be able to use our OWN eyes to tell us what we think about the coins/sets - THis would be VERY helpful to those of us who have a heard time reading what's on those labels in those plastic slabs (BTW - I like plastic slabs - they prevent FURTHER damage to most coins)
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Comments
i have a couple of direct questions that grew from reading your strange responses to the thread replies. why did you choose to use PCGS as your subject both here and at the NGC forum? why would you choose to acknowledge agreement but to ignore disagreement? what is the real issue of this thread?
your structure of the initial post was a bit contentious to begin with since it's my understanding from reading your forum replies that you aren't involved with the modern market accept as a critic.i guess that's OK but it seems rather biased. it doesn't take much "reading between the lines" to arrive at that as some members obviously have.
i would ask again, since you pose several questions in your first post, what was your chief motivation in starting this thread? one question, please.
al h.
For those who haven't been "over there".
NewmisEd I can assure you that Doug does not collect plastic, having personally viewed his top quality and top grade set of early Lincoln proofs just two weeks ago in his office. They would stand alone as superior in quality and grade outside of the plastic. His type coins are all of superior quality for the grade as well. It was a great pleasure to view them in person!
you get into a fight on the playground. Any one who is big enough to present a question
on this Forum should be big enough to take the hits. Had you presented the question at the
water cooler using NGC, it would have been a worthwhile exercise in compairing the responses.
Camelot
i thought i'd have a reply while i was shaving. oh well, i'll wait.
thanks for the NGC link, Sam. i find it humorous, Michael, that you think you were flamed over here. all that happened was that a few members didn't agree with the even-mindedness of posting a thread on two competitors forums while singling out one, PCGS, and they questioned that. quite simple, really. if you think you were flamed you must not pay attention here!!!
another interesting point in you replies, to wit----if you look inside yourself there you will find the answers you seek but i must admit you might not like what you see but it is there nonetheless
anger and fear never got anyone anywhere
i understand that if each of us cannot accept criticism, we don't deserve praise. that can also be deduced with some healthy self-examination. what part of your initial post scares you?? what part of the replies that angered you are you afraid of and why??
this is getting hea---veeee!!
al h.
As for the US coin market, since there are several different ways to interpret Michael's question, there are a variety of possible outcomes. If all the TPGs went south because the market crashed, as Mitch & Greg suggest, then it's a matter of why they went south. I do not agree that "The closing of PCGS or any coin related organization would be the result of, not the cause of a crash." Businesses fold all of the time, not just during crashes. There has long been speculation on these boards about what happens when all the coins worth slabbing already are slabbed. One would suppose that the business volume entering the TPG houses would fall and, one by one (the weakest first), each would go out of business as the business volume sank below the minimum costs of operation. There are also a variety of reasons why a single business like CLCT could close far short of any such drastic examples.
Now, if just PCGS went belly up, well, it would no doubt be a boon for NGC, at least for a while as a new competitor entering the market would not be unlikely. Since NGC's registry would be the only such game in town, certainly ANACS or someone else would seriously contemplate starting one too (albeit with far less credibility). NGC's registry, already being inclusive of PCGS-slabbed coins, would be a natural venue for "disposessed" Registry collectors to hightail it to. Even if a bunch of PCGS veterans started up their own outfit, it would take time for it to establish itself sufficiently for its registry to become accepted. Furthermore, since PCGS population reports would no longer be maintained, PCGS poptops would lose a little of their premium because ... well, how would you know anymore? That would tend to encourage people to migrate their PCGS coins to NGC slabs "to be sure," especially since they'd be "the best game in town" at least for the interim, if not long term. The valuations of condition rarities would drop simply because of the uncertainties; moreover, a number of collectors would bail and sell out at dramatic losses, which would also reduce top valuations. These depressed valuations would migrate to the NGC registry, where they would begin to rise as conditions and confidence stabilized.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
you get into a fight on the playground. Any one who is big enough to present a question on this Forum should be big enough to take the hits. Had you presented the question at the water cooler using NGC, it would have been a worthwhile exercise in compairing the responses. "
Bear, Keets, Craig: My UNEDITED original comment still remains on page 1. My opinion expressed in it was neither "slanderous", hostile, filthy, etc. I simply questioned Michael on a peculiar observation I made that he was raising the demise of PCGS and its Registry on both the PCGS and NGC message boards. Coupled with the track record of "modern bashing", PCGS "plastic" bashing, etc., it appeared to me to be a direct slam against PCGS (obviously others agreed). Ironically, it was Michael who then "attacked" me with the litany of "look in the mirror" remarks (here and elsewhere) and I still ignored his attacks and have yet to say anything against him, and will continue not to.
Wondercoin
There are what, maybe 10 million coins graded but nearly a trillion have been minted
and two out of three survive. There are also many millions of tokens and medals and
if they ever hit a slack time then there are many other collectibles fields which might
benefit from authentication and grading. More importantly collectors' tastes are always
evolving and most coins will be sent in again to be compared to these new tastes.
It's difficult to believe that a successfull TPG will just go out of business. Oh sure, things
could begin going poorly and conditions continue to worsen to the point that bankruptcy
is the only course, but this would happen over a period of time. The market would adjust.
People would move on with their life even before the fact and the actual failure would be
an anticlimax. In any case PCGS does not twist peoples arms to get submissions nor do
they force people to participate in the registries. People were actually starting to collect
the high grade coins BEFORE the third party graders and they'll likely be collecting them
after.
The internet isn't going away, the registries aren't going away, and collecting coins isn't
going away. At some point all these will cease to exist, just don't look for it anytime soon.
Amen, but I may also be hungry...
As for this thread is concerned, I think a light-natured observation on another possibility for the demise of PCGS: massive earthquake! BTW, is it possible to buy up future beachfront property about miles or so east of the fault line?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Hi Eagle7,
Obviously, this thread is about the value of the plastic and not the coins, as my comments reflect. Thanks for your support!
A coin is only what it is. Plastic is only what it is. When you start believing the coin is what the plastic is, then you have a problem. Sometimes I play the coin game, and sometimes I play the plastic game -- but I never confuse the two!
It has also led to a distortion in prices between certain PCGS and NGC coins. I also believe many of those price differences are unwarranted, though I am sure some would disagree.
Knowing Michael, I don't think he favors either PCGS or NGC over the other. In fact, to the contrary, he is a perfect example of someone who "buys the coin, not the holder".
If the roles were reversed and the NGC registry program were producing larger price distortions than the PCGS one were, I think Michael might have very well posted "If NGC grading and its registry were gone tomorrow?" on both forums, instead.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
Mark: That slogan gets bantered about here quite often. I am sincerely curious what makes someone a "perfect example" of someone who "buys the coin, not the holder". Since I know you deal in only QUALITY coins in slabs anyway, why would the average collector on this board who buys from you generally not be buying the "coin and not the holder"? My simple point being that I would suspect the vast majority of your customer base are "buy the coin, not the holder" customers - right, as are many who have responded here?
Wondercoin
As I am on vacation, if you wish to continue this discussion/debate, you will have to do so without me. Enjoy.
Mark: If I had know that, I wouldn't have bothered you
Wondercoin
Camelot
Maybe the original comments were bias against PCGS and Modern coinage but anyone that thinks they were can jump over on the NGC board and post a bias comment about NGC.
Holy Smokes seeing these threads head south constantly gets real old. Why not just answer the questions with a sensible answer and leave it at that.
Yep... I see the Jade Coin thread is still on topic also.
Now my answer.
If PCGS or NGC either went out of business collectors would sorely miss what they have given the hobby. The stability that these two services have provided has made this a much more enjoyable adventure for many collectors. I will guarantee you right now that if these two services were not present not a single coin would be bought sight un-seen. Anyone that remembers the 1980's could probably say the same thing because of the blatant over grading and shady antics of many dealers and advertisers in national publications.
If the Registries were gone..... No Big deal there. Probably I have had contact with just about all of the Merc folks that enjoy the series. As long as I still have thier Email Address I could care less if the Registry stays or leaves. The people make the Registry in my opinion not the plastic.
Which coins would lose the most..... No big deal here either as long as it is not Merc Dimes. Sure I could speculate and say Modern Issues but the statement would be a huge sack of BS because I know nothing about them or the Rarity among some of the coins.
Well thats about it on this Thread Subject
Ken
1) "Moderns."
2) Pop 1 Coins. The price curve for those coins sitting on the top of the grading scale for a date/type will flatten, particularly those with a healthy population of coins in the next lower available grade.
3) Designation Coins. The weighting in the registries has created a demand for coins with designations such as CAM, DCAM, FBL, etc. I don't think such demand would last to the degree it now exists.
cladking mimiced me i responed over there ngc after him
no need for attack but i am going to respond
i posted a thread looking for a post not a personal attack and accusations on me making accusations at me accusing me of my motives that are not true i mean who made you judge jury and executioneer?
lol
and i posted in both boards so what? it is my choice to do so
you judge me try me without ever jusr responding to the thread what are you afraid of? well it must be something
you attack me
wondercoin becomes a victim
you show intolerance
impatience as you do not let me even post the ngc thread at both places..........lol i did not know i needed your permission to post a simple thread on these boards you take waht i say
wondercoin quotes out of context you have such hate all three of you for me someone you really do not know but you have seen me on here you judge me based on some past posts?? ans your perception?
would you believe that you are innocent until proven guilty
reread my original thread again and please let me know waht is so offensive?? lol
answer the question for you reread the question i originally wrote it is a legit thing to answer
if you choose not to answer please do not attack me and call me names..................lol
stare your answer like many did on the ngc boards and on here! no right or wrong just waht your choices are
i mean yes of course there is something inside you that makes you do this but please do not blame your anger or your life and your choices on me
look at my original thread again
if a major company pcgs was gone tomorrow etc etc........
part one...................lol now if you want to do my work for me you jumped the got and got all hot and bothered well tomorrow put ngc anx icg in your own thread and let me ask you this would you like it if i attacked you guys like this??? like you did me?
michael
Wondercoin
yes in your honest opinion wondercoin lol
i did not know your opinion was a statement of judgement and fact as regards to me
yes and you suspect something too also a judgment both of which are not correct
i see you on on the pcgs boards with your arbritary comments that now become facts as you see them and you make the final determination
last time i knew were in the usa not a facist regime
i thought you answered the thread not read into it AND MAKE rash judgments you really should have private mesaage me first and give me a chance to clarify and ISSUES YOU HAVE
i would have been happy to do this
you got all hot and bothered just like you usually do when you feel wronged because of some sort of again fear you have
michael
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
well lets see i did not know i needed your permission thast i had to ask if and give you a game plan that i was going to start this with pcgs and then otheres but since again in your honest opinion you did not private message me to ask me or clarify your issues i was given no time to respond
yes next time i will pm you to ask your permission
yes your conclusion based on your own fear
yes if i happen to talk about ford cars that doesnot mean i am not even handed if i do not mention the other big three
<< <i>yes if i happen to talk about ford cars >>
you do and I'll get involved in this!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Geez - come on guys - NGC has a larger role in the marketplace than to assume that this question is only fair using PCGS and its Registry as the sole example.
There was no need to single out PCGS plastic either here or on the NGC forum. Just a "shot" at PCGS and its Registry IMHO and, in particular, PCGS moderns I suspect.
Wondercoin
oh yes and i understand also wondercoin strange responses as they do not agree with you
LOL
and yes in your honest opinion your opinion based on no fact or a pm to me you come to a conclusion again you are extremely angry
well that is not my problem
That sounds like a very good approach - I look forward to it.
Wondercoin
My point was simply this - why go to the NGC meesage board and post the EXACT same question there? Since we all greatly respect NGC's position in the maketplace, to be frank - IMHO it is a "slap in face" to go their and ask their readers what would happen if PCGS went out of business and the PCGS Registry collapsed? Ask what would happen if NGC' Registry collapsed if you really care to know the impact on slabs of key companies going out of business - unless, again, the question had a deeper meaning behind it in the first place.
oh yes now i have to ask mitchs permission to go to the ngc boards to ask the same question sorry mitch next time i will get a written permission slip from you
seems to me that i go to both boards everyday one after another and there are some on the other boards thayt do not come here and visa versa again i was not asked in a pm for me to verify
sorry mitch i am glad again in your honest opinion i have ulterior motives i mean mitch wow you must really have met me and got to know me many times in person to be able to judge me so well then try me and then sentance me all based so far on your honest opinions
well mitch again anger and fear
mitch would you believe that in my honest opinion i think you owe me an apology and evenmoreso both boards?
hey if you do not like my posts then why dont you call me or pm me and ask me?? sounds good to me?
I will keep that in mind that next time you post a thread like this.
Wondercoin
yes you are entitled to your opinion and again you doubted my verasity of my statements waht statements??
all i did was post a thread on both boards?? i did not expect you to talk abouit me personally
then that is not an opinion it is slander lookat my original post where did i mention you or slander anyone i posed an interesting question answer it and proved your point LOL do not make it personal against me
your comments were not fair to me mitch you made many assumptions as to the verasity of my statements
now a comment mitch would be towards the registry sets or specific sets thereof not specifically about me
mitch if you look at the original thread i poste where does it say i disagreed with you? all i asked was what if??
and you are supposed to give your what if or more onto the next thread
not well in my honest opinion michale has many ulterior motives and he has the nerve to post a generic thread post with the first amendment on another boards that he frequents all the time and every post he posts on the pcgs nboards he posts on the ngc boards??
think about it mitch
or if not them pm me and ask my why when how??
iwould have told you this is a 3 part series..............lol i did not know i had to follw your rules if i had known you were in charge here i would have asked you lol
michael
We ARE watching you.
And you got some. Your anti-modern, anti-PCGS, tacit or express, position was just a bit too "thick" today and I responded, as did Typetone. No biggie; next thread
Wondercoin
*************************
wow mitch it was never my intention to be anti modern anti pcgs tactic or was a a bit too think again again mitch judgement unfair judgements against me
all i did was start a thread lol mitch would you believe i have been a collector and been doing this for over 35 years?? also i do many things for kids with coins! i talk to carol the administrator on the pcgs and also people at ngc? they both have helped me with my kids numismatic stuff?
bear and keets and wondercoin anf typetone would you believe..........lol probably not
would you believe i just posted this here to get a good comversation going to see waht the epoples thoughts where on thier series?
has nothing to do with the pAST PRESENT OR FUTURE posts personalities or wahtever...........lol
mitch you think i just go on here to undermine pcgs everyday.............lol
mitch calm down take a chill pill do not get all worked up pm me and ask me
you see the many above posts by me? well just your words and it certianly looks like more of an attack and judgement on me than a comment lol
lol look at my original thread on here did i slander you and make veiled innuendo against you i do not think so??
you started it and that is okie you had a misunderstanding looking into somethinhg so much you found lots that was just not there
i think you owe me personally and these boards an apology
yes my anti basking tactic oh yes that is not a judge jury or exceutioner statement by you......lol it is a compliment by you.......lol
and yes after you bash me well then we can move on and leave me in the dust
mitch would you believe i am not you enemy on here???..................lol
but i guess you really hit me good today and you know what you were totally i will call mistaken
next time pm me and ask me man to man
then afyter your pm if you want to flame me well it is your first amendment right but you have no right to do waht you as pere the above
it was ugly uncalled for and just not true slanderous
mitch would you believe that in this country you are presumed innocent until proven guilty
i mean pm me and let me know waht i did so offensive on here and ngc??
i am very confused
michael
Michael: Fair enough - you mentioned it several times now. PM me your phone number now and I'll be more than happy to call you right now.
Wondercoin
single responce. I expected that within minutes it would turn into yet another
in a lomg line of modern bashing threads. My first instinct was to start a classic
bashing thread but guess what. People wouldn't respond to it much. This isn't
because everyone thinks classics are great. There are lots of people here who
don't want to collect classics for a variety of reasons at the current time. But they
have better things to do then to slam the people who enjoy collecting, studying,
or dealing in something they don't collect. So why doesn't this work both ways?
and you were afraid to answer just to condemn and judge
and i see wondercoin you are tongue tied and just have to repeat yourself
michael
Hell, no - I didn't read the whole thread! But I think Michael deserves a bit more respect than I've seen on my once thru!
Long before 1986, many of us bought and sold raw coins all the time.
That was all there was other than some ANACS papered certs. Buyers and sellers had a darn good feel what was a "pop top" type coin back then. It didn't hinder things one bit. Slabs are a convenience and a nice tool to give you a 2nd opinion.
roadrunner
doesnt mean we dont like or respect you. We do , honest we do.
Sometimes we can inadvertently press someones bottons and get
a fiery response. It dont mean nothing, nothing at all. Smile and
the whole world smiles with you. OK, maybe a couple of dozen people
are not smiling, maybe there just tired.
Camelot
<< <i>if pcgs where to go out of business totally within a week and also the registry set and collector forums where to be gone totally also never to return -what registry set coins would take the biggest hit percentagewise in terms of cash value? >>
Well it's too much trouble to go to the PCGS registry web site & look at all the Registry sets & then go & try & find what prices are being paid for the top POP coins, BUT from what I see in recent auctions, common modern coins (Lincolns, Rosies, State Quarters, Washington Quarters, etc) where there are millions of ungraded coins (maybe billions), but where there are "only" a "few" MS70 / Pr70 (or 69's) coins, those sets/coins are probably ripe for an "Enron" type correction. They're not really rare - the VAST majority have never been sent to the professional grading lottery (think slot machines in Las Vegas - yeah someone eventually will win the jackpot - it just depends on how many "quarters" you're willing to feed into the machine - the real winner is ALWAYS the house). BTW, how many of us can tell the difference between one of those Pr69's & the "elusive, jackpot winner" Pr70? & BTW WHAT is the difference?
So if the registry sets were gone & PCGS also (& presumably NGC too), we'd all have to use our own eyes, & our own skill to determine the good, the bad & the ugly. In the process, we might even learn how to use our own skills to figure out which ones are the godizillas!! -Instead of arguing about how often the services "get it wrong" we'd all be forced to use our own skill, knowledge & judgment to determine what coins are nice, which are nicer & which are nicest - might even be fun!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Coin showdowns would certainly be more lively.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>Coin showdowns would certainly be more lively. >>
You got that right - us collectors would be able to use our OWN eyes to tell us what we think about the coins/sets -
THis would be VERY helpful to those of us who have a heard time reading what's on those labels in those plastic slabs (BTW - I like plastic slabs - they prevent FURTHER damage to most coins)
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
selling coins. Good - Gooder - Goodest
Camelot