As much "goughing" as I've seen with the only local dealer in my area, I think all's fair in commerece. If the dealer was so inclined to be fair and honest, he would have asked if they had any more that he would also give a fair price. From what I've seen at my local dealer and other dealers, he's probably just drooling ocver the possibilities and couldn't get the person out of the shop fast enough. Then he could pour over his new found booty and see if he's won the loose silver lottery. Just my opinion. There are fair dealers out there and I've delt with some on E-bay, internet and personel contacts via the internet. However, everytime I go into a shop and ask for what I specialize in I'm told they don't carry that trash in slabs. Then when I see an odd ball I want to add to my collection, it's always like gold with no discounts offered or offers are rejected. They have always been rude and very short, even though I'm the only one in the shop. If you got the coins from the seller and ther seller got more money than the dealer by all means I think you did the right thing. Unfortunately, on these boards there are some that try to pick a fight with everyone over anything. Don't pay them any mind. Congratulations!!! Ray
You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!
My biggest concern was not the fact of the contact after leaving the dealers store. But the appearance that the dealer had not treated the seller fairly. Since you paid .5 more. I think if I was in your shoes and paid the 3.5 I would have made a point to tell the seller that he had been treated fairly by the dealer and that you were willing to pay more because you were buying at a retail level as a colletcor or accumulator. Now the $20.00 gold piece at $250.00??
I may be going out on a limb here, but are you just a little PO-ed at dealers? I think that may be clouding your vision.
If you owned a shoe store, that supported your family, would it bother you if someone stood out in the parking lot soliciting your customers? If you say "no", I don't think I'll believe you!
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
Many ethical issues are black and white. Don't delude yourself. One simple test is often revealing:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Doesn't matter whether you're the buyer, the seller, the wife, the husband, the boss, the employee etc. If it were your shop, would you want other people to do that? If you were the customer and had perfect knowledge, is my offer a fair one that I would wish someone would give me in the circumstances.
If you're the fetus, would you want an abortion? What if your mother were raped? Would you still want her to have an abortion?
What if her life were in danger by carrying you? Would you then possibly wish her to have the abortion?
Life isn't always fair.... that's true. But without a compass that does consistently point in one directiion.....you are doomed to wander hopelessly wandering where and why and thinking every issue is gray and every event is random.
Ethical dilemma? Then do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Sorry, it really is that simple. I wish it weren't... so that I could blame someone else for my lapses in judgement.
I am not going to get into the ethics of the issue, I think that has been fully covered already.
However, it might be interesting to ask what those who think this was o.k. would do if they were the dealer and became aware of this deal.
From the dealer's point of view, the seller was only there because the dealer spends huge amounts of money to draw customers. He needs to buy and sell a lot of material each day just to keep the lights on and feed his family. It is his job to buy coins at less than retail and sell them for retail if he can. 3x face is the going rate for common 90% silver and the dealer is not going to get rich on that one bag of silver, believe me!
If this were me I would inform the person that he was no longer welcome in my shop on his next visit. Perhaps if I thought of him as "not very bright" or he had been a regular customer for some time and had never been a problem before I would give one very stern warning. A second offense would result in the person being banned from the shop!
For that matter if I were selling something to my local dealer and another customer offered me a higher price I would tell him that I was not offering the item to him, explain why what he was doing is wrong and then inform the dealer at once! My relationship with my local dealer is worth far more to me than a few extra bucks!
If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:
I love these kinds of posts. Questions of ethics fascinate me.
Initially, I saw nothing wrong with what NoGvmnt did, but after reading these responses, I'm not so sure it was an ethical thing to do. It certainly has me thinking.
having watched a local dealer RAPE customers by reviewing every date and paying x times face for silver which included KEY DATES and telling the customer there was "nothing of any value" in what they brought in, I would not think twice about offering to buy from the seller. The cherry on the sundae is that the dealer laughs and jokes with his cronies after the guy leaves about what a great "rip" he just got.
There are many great dealers, there are dozens of times as many scumbags. If your margin isn't big enough as some have whined - go into a business where you can make a profit.
I would not think of speaking to a seller who has been dealt with honestly by an honest dealer. I wouldn't hesitate to make a better offer than a scumbag ripoff artist made.
it all boils down to very simple stuff - do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
Seriously, I am somewhat ambiguous on the idea. You did only ask if there were "additional" coins that he might have, and the dealer did not. You did not try to knock off coins the dealer had made an offer on. To me that seems alright, Asking about other coins that is.
However, you would never have even seen the guy or had the chance to approach him without the dealer who paid the bills to keep the shop open and as a gathering point for people of like mind to meet at.
Here is a scenario to chew on for you detractors, imagine entering a coin shop and seeing another collector looking at coins, you strike up a conversation and in short order become friends that in time chat via email, meet at shows or whatever. As a new friend, he offers you his good coins and bags on the dealer or only uses him as a second resort for whatever you do not like.
Now this seems quite probable to me and yet the coin shop owner and his shop created this friendship just like the the first scenario, but the encounter was just more brief.
Develop a good relationship with the dealer, let him know what you collect, show him the loyalty and respect you would want if you were him and I promise he'll send some killer deals your way!
If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:
Bochiman, thank you very much for the charitable comments.
I believe that the Golden Rule should be applied on a constant basis, and this case is no exception. I understand that dealers want to make money; I'm a business owner/operater as well, and I know how brutal and difficult it is to make a living. But the key to success in business, as well as life in general, is to follow the Golden Rule, and that includes serving others and fulfilling their needs. That is the whole beauty of free enterprise---those who serve best, earn best in the long run. What I don't yet understand is the point of view of those people who claim that the dealer has exclusive rights to all transactions involving people who have set foot in their shop. Try to look at it from the customer's point of view. The customer has a right to buy from and sell to whomever he wants. So if you're a dealer, it's easy---just provide the best service, look to the needs of your customers, and the profit will come.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
as I said in a previous reply to this thread.......FREE ENTERPRISE!!!! it's the US way!!! open competition and survival of the fittest......free market society! whoever makes the "sale" gets the goods..end of story...
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on; I don't do these things to other people, I require the same from them."
NG... You would never known about the deal had it not been for the dealers shop. How would you feel if a bystander to one of your deals followed a perspective seller out to the parking lot to buy the rest of his coins. If you see nothing wrong with what you did, why didn't you make your offer in front of the dealer ?
I'm not going to read through this entire thread but I know what I'd find. Collectors think it's alright, they're wrong. There would have been no door for them to meet on the outside of if that dealer didn't maintain that shop.
Where does it end? Can the one guy never ever sell or buy from the other one? Forever? Can they never talk on the phone and say "Boy you should see the coins Jim has," because they did not meet at your shop?
Justify the action of stealing business all you want, it is not exceptable behavior nor tolerated in this industry,period.
If you think it's ok, try doing it without hiding from the dealer outside the store. If it's ok how come you have hide it from the dealer? If you have to hide something, it is obvious you do not feel it is right.
There is a dealer in Florida who is not well liked (no store) who was caught doing this at someones shop, he is no longer welcome at most the shops anymore, after I heard about it from another dealer at a show (word travels fast in this biz) when he calls me I tell him I have nothing to show him and so do most of the other shops, even at shows most people blow him off, including dealers that have no shops.
Again, If you think it's right then post your full name, see what happens.
One more thing, I dont beleive that most of the folks that think it was ok are bad people, just not fully informed on what is expected from honorable coin folks. I hope this thread teaches at least one new collector something.
Regards to all Even those who still dont get it. Brian Kuszmar 954-493-8811 ebaytrader@buya1a.com
Stealing bussiness? How? He didnt burst in when they were making a deal. They were outside of the shop and he asked if the guy had anymore. The dealer never knew, the guy may have not have even come back. No one knows what he was going to do with the rest! The dealer didnt ask either. Is there some ethical law saying that you cannot buy from someone who the dealer bought from because he might sell to the dealer instead? I think that we have just as much right to buy as dealers. And if you can give the seller a better deal more power to you.
I still think the deal was done, he didn't interfere, and made another offer after the fact. A coin buddy of mine (JTrusty from Numisaddict) lives in my town. We met once at a local coin shop. Is this to mean Jason and I can't ever do a coin trade or deal because the coin dealer saw him first?
Now I have never interfered with a deal, and never approached someone outside the store, but I have bit my tongue before watching a dealer absolutely RAPE an old lady who brought in old rolls of silver and wheats. 2.5 x face for rolls of SLQs. $1/roll for mixed date wheats. I know he'll sell those coins for 50x what he paid - I never said a word.
Now if I would have approached that lady after the deal was done and made an offer on her collection I'm not seeing a problem. She brought the dealer what she wanted to sell him.
Comments
READ THE BOOK FIRST before you BUY or SELL!!
I may be going out on a limb here, but are you just a little PO-ed at dealers? I think that may be clouding your vision.
If you owned a shoe store, that supported your family, would it bother you if someone stood out in the parking lot soliciting your customers? If you say "no", I don't think I'll believe you!
Dave
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Doesn't matter whether you're the buyer, the seller, the wife, the husband, the boss, the employee etc. If it were your shop, would you want other people to do that? If you were the customer and had perfect knowledge, is my offer a fair one that I would wish someone would give me in the circumstances.
If you're the fetus, would you want an abortion? What if your mother were raped? Would you still want her to have an abortion?
What if her life were in danger by carrying you? Would you then possibly wish her to have the abortion?
Life isn't always fair.... that's true. But without a compass that does consistently point in one directiion.....you are doomed to wander hopelessly wandering where and why and thinking every issue is gray and every event is random.
Ethical dilemma? Then do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Sorry, it really is that simple. I wish it weren't... so that I could blame someone else for my lapses in judgement.
-KHayse
In this case it was a matter chance and seems reasonable to me.
One thing though, DO I GET THE POTD?
AAAAAAAhhaahaahaahaaaaaaaaaaaa
Jim
However, it might be interesting to ask what those who think this was o.k. would do if they were the dealer and became aware of this deal.
From the dealer's point of view, the seller was only there because the dealer spends huge amounts of money to draw customers. He needs to buy and sell a lot of material each day just to keep the lights on and feed his family. It is his job to buy coins at less than retail and sell them for retail if he can. 3x face is the going rate for common 90% silver and the dealer is not going to get rich on that one bag of silver, believe me!
If this were me I would inform the person that he was no longer welcome in my shop on his next visit. Perhaps if I thought of him as "not very bright" or he had been a regular customer for some time and had never been a problem before I would give one very stern warning. A second offense would result in the person being banned from the shop!
For that matter if I were selling something to my local dealer and another customer offered me a higher price I would tell him that I was not offering the item to him, explain why what he was doing is wrong and then inform the dealer at once! My relationship with my local dealer is worth far more to me than a few extra bucks!
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
Initially, I saw nothing wrong with what NoGvmnt did, but after reading these responses, I'm not so sure it was an ethical thing to do. It certainly has me thinking.
There are many great dealers, there are dozens of times as many scumbags. If your margin isn't big enough as some have whined - go into a business where you can make a profit.
I would not think of speaking to a seller who has been dealt with honestly by an honest dealer. I wouldn't hesitate to make a better offer than a scumbag ripoff artist made.
it all boils down to very simple stuff - do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
Umm....what did everyone else say??
Seriously, I am somewhat ambiguous on the idea. You did only ask if there were "additional" coins that he might have, and the dealer did not. You did not try to knock off coins the dealer had made an offer on. To me that seems alright, Asking about other coins that is.
However, you would never have even seen the guy or had the chance to approach him without the dealer who paid the bills to keep the shop open and as a gathering point for people of like mind to meet at.
Here is a scenario to chew on for you detractors, imagine entering a coin shop and seeing another collector looking at coins, you strike up a conversation and in short order become friends that in time chat via email, meet at shows or whatever. As a new friend, he offers you his good coins and bags on the dealer or only uses him as a second resort for whatever you do not like.
Now this seems quite probable to me and yet the coin shop owner and his shop created this friendship just like the the first scenario, but the encounter was just more brief.
hmmm....
Tyler
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
I believe that the Golden Rule should be applied on a constant basis, and this case is no exception. I understand that dealers want to make money; I'm a business owner/operater as well, and I know how brutal and difficult it is to make a living. But the key to success in business, as well as life in general, is to follow the Golden Rule, and that includes serving others and fulfilling their needs. That is the whole beauty of free enterprise---those who serve best, earn best in the long run. What I don't yet understand is the point of view of those people who claim that the dealer has exclusive rights to all transactions involving people who have set foot in their shop. Try to look at it from the customer's point of view. The customer has a right to buy from and sell to whomever he wants. So if you're a dealer, it's easy---just provide the best service, look to the needs of your customers, and the profit will come.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Where does it end? Can the one guy never ever sell or buy from the other one? Forever? Can they never talk on the phone and say "Boy you should see the coins Jim has," because they did not meet at your shop?
If you think it's ok, try doing it without hiding from the dealer outside the store. If it's ok how come you have hide it from the dealer? If you have to hide something, it is obvious you do not feel it is right.
There is a dealer in Florida who is not well liked (no store) who was caught doing this at someones shop, he is no longer welcome at most the shops anymore, after I heard about it from another dealer at a show
(word travels fast in this biz) when he calls me I tell him I have nothing to show him and so do most of the other shops, even at shows most people blow him off, including dealers that have no shops.
Again, If you think it's right then post your full name, see what happens.
One more thing, I dont beleive that most of the folks that think it was ok are bad people, just not fully informed on what is expected from honorable coin folks. I hope this thread teaches at least one new collector something.
Regards to all
Even those who still dont get it.
Brian Kuszmar
954-493-8811
ebaytrader@buya1a.com
Now I have never interfered with a deal, and never approached someone outside the store, but I have bit my tongue before watching a dealer absolutely RAPE an old lady who brought in old rolls of silver and wheats. 2.5 x face for rolls of SLQs. $1/roll for mixed date wheats. I know he'll sell those coins for 50x what he paid - I never said a word.
Now if I would have approached that lady after the deal was done and made an offer on her collection I'm not seeing a problem. She brought the dealer what she wanted to sell him.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!