Wow, this guy is getting better and better with his AT material...#@#$%#$

uofa1285 · August 16, 2003 12:33PM

It will be a very sad day for NT color collectors if these docs ever get to the point their (edited for spelling) AT material is indistinguishable from NT...That's not even considering the financial loss all of us will suffer.

Still fairly easy for experts to distinguish, this guy is (sadly), good with the chemicals.

Monster Doctored Morgan

Your comments and insights would be welcomed here.

Doug

airplanenut · August 16, 2003 12:37PM

PCI holder... guess I won't bid...

mnmcoin · August 16, 2003 12:38PM

You sure are right, that looks like a number of coins I have seen at shows in PCGS and NGC holders...but it just doesn't look right for some reason. It looks odd at around 11 o'clock.

morris <><

uofa1285 · August 16, 2003 12:41PM

<< You sure are right, that looks like a number of coins I have seen at shows in PCGS and NGC holders...but it just doesn't look right for some reason. It looks odd at around 11 o'clock.

morris <>< >>

For me, among other criteria, I can tell when the colors seem to "float" on surfaces that are not PL or semi-PL...

Doug

DanC · August 16, 2003 1:11PM

Right colors... in the right order - not a bad example. Reverse - nice and clean.

This one's a tad bit scary. The colors don't flow correctly across the piece - but at least they're the right ones, and not that horrid orange crap.

This one would fool most people - I'd guess.

airplanenut · August 16, 2003 1:13PM

<< Right colors... in the right order - not a bad example. Reverse - nice and clean.

This one's a tad bit scary. The colors don't flow correctly across the piece - but at least they're the right ones, and not that horrid orange crap.

This one would fool most people - I'd guess. >>

Exactly- but it wouldn't fool a professional grader... if it's a "winner" coin, it goes to PCGS, NGC, or ANACS... NOT PCI!

nwcs · August 16, 2003 1:18PM

First visual impression I got from it was AT. In fact, it screamed AT at me. The colors don't feel right. But it is one of the better jobs I've seen on ebay. I'd want to see it up close to really evaluate it, though. The area below the chin is one area I noticed immediately. And the way the color lies in the bolls. I bet a head on shot (this one is at an angle) would reveal the AT better.

JxnBoy · August 16, 2003 1:19PM

That's a nice one from tonecoin. His target toned Peace Dollar is nice too. He's getting better.

His stuff in the past has been so blatantly fake it's easy to tell. But this, and the Peace, are starting to look better.

Dheath had some interesting thoughts in one of the toned nickel threads. I hate to think he's right, because all the legit toners in holders are going to suffer. However, I do think he's on the mark. this thread

Russ · August 16, 2003 1:41PM

<< ... if it's a "winner" coin, it goes to PCGS, NGC, or ANACS... NOT PCI! >>

While it's certainly true that PCI will slab any turd that comes in, NGC has also slabbed quite a bit of this guy's garbage.

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut · August 16, 2003 1:44PM

<< 

<< ... if it's a "winner" coin, it goes to PCGS, NGC, or ANACS... NOT PCI! >>

While it's certainly true that PCI will slab any turd that comes in, NGC has also slabbed quite a bit of this guy's garbage.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ, most of the NGC slabs, however, were not nearly this colorful... I've wondered if those slabs were actually bought slabbed, and sold to make his other products more marketable (ie, someone sees something raw or PCI in his auctions, but since some coins are in NGC slabs, they must all be ok).

Jeremy

JxnBoy · August 16, 2003 1:47PM

I'm not going to look it up, but there was a thread not too long ago that had a BTW commem that was a raw tonecoin job that someone slabbed by NGC and was up for sale on teletrade. The seller had before and after (raw and slabbed, not pre-doctor post-doctor) pics as well.

...David

Russ · August 16, 2003 1:53PM

<< Russ, most of the NGC slabs, however, were not nearly this colorful... >>

I guess you missed the blatantly AT'd wild Carver Commemorative that he sold raw, that then showed up later NGC slabbed MS65, first on Teletrade then on eBay.

<< I've wondered if those slabs were actually bought slabbed >>

No, they weren't. It was his work. There were a bunch of Morgans that all looked like his garbage and came from the same NGC submission. NGC flat blew it.

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut · August 16, 2003 1:54PM

<< 

<< Russ, most of the NGC slabs, however, were not nearly this colorful... >>

I guess you missed the blatantly AT'd wild Carver Commemorative that he sold raw, that then showed up later NGC slabbed MS65, first on Teletrade then on eBay.

<< I've wondered if those slabs were actually bought slabbed >>

No, they weren't. It was his work. There were a bunch of Morgans that all looked like his garbage and came from the same NGC submission. NGC flat blew it.

Russ, NCNE >>

I guess I did miss those

The only NGC ones of his I saw were mint set toned... do you have any links to his work in plastic?

Jeremy

Russ · August 16, 2003 1:59PM

Jeremy,

There are several threads with links. I'm old and tired and I don't feel like searching for them right now.

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut · August 16, 2003 2:02PM

Fair enough, Russ... you deserve some rest... or at least some more time to go AH hunting

JxnBoy · August 16, 2003 2:03PM

In reading Russ' thread, I'm sure he's right, it was a Carver commem.

BTW, I couldn't figure out who this "Russ" was yesterday posting with a Barber icon. Nice to see the Kennedy back.

uofa1285 · August 16, 2003 2:11PM

<< In reading Russ' thread, I'm sure he's right, it was a Carver commem.

BTW, I couldn't figure out who this "Russ" was yesterday posting with a Barber icon. Nice to see the Kennedy back. >>

As active as the forum is on color doctors, has anyone tried to contact this person and shame him into responding?

Doug

Russ · August 16, 2003 2:33PM

Doug,

Several have contacted him, and he always says the same thing. Here's a response I got from him back when he was easyman168:

<< Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:24:23 -0800 (PST)
From: MICHAEL HUANG <easyman3557@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #3301148913
To: sales@compucheap.com

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT TONING COINS. MAYBE THE COINS TONED BY TIME AND AIR OR CHEMICAL.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

MICHAEL

sales@compucheap.com wrote:
What method do you use to artificially tone these? Thanks...Russ
--------------------

Question from: compucheap
Title of item: 1964 KENNEDY 50c, RAINBOW TONED! UNC!
Seller: easyman168
Starts: Dec-19-02 21:19:45 PST
Ends: Dec-26-02 21:19:45 PST
Price: Currently $9.99
To view the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3301148913

Visit eBay, The World's Online Marketplace TM at http://www.ebay.com >>

He also has the eBay ID "bbycoin".

Russ, NCNE

Louis · August 16, 2003 2:36PM

Is he the same guy coloring all those proof Jeffersons ?

DCAMFranklin · August 16, 2003 2:42PM

Pure junk. Hard to see how anyone can buy into those colors as NT.

airplanenut · August 16, 2003 2:47PM

I have also emailed him before- he said he wasn't sure, and then linked to an old thread on these boards with a debate on the toning

Here's the email:

HI THERE, HOW ARE YOU!
HARD TO SAY, IF I SAY IT IS NATURAL TONED, YOU MAYBE DON'T BELIEVE ME. IF I SAY IT IS AT TONED, AND I COULDN'T FIND OUT HOW IT GOT TONED!
SO I HAVE NO IDEA, I JUST WOULD SAY IT IS UNUSUAL TONED.
ALSO A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE COLORS. THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT MY COINS IN PCGS WEB SITE, YOU CAN GO THERE BY CLICK BELOW LINK

Vindication for Tonecoin2003 & the Story of One 1962-D Franklin.

airplanenut312@comcast.net wrote:
Hi,

Is this coin naturally or artificially toned?
--------------------

Question from: jkcoins
Title of item: COLORFUL 1883-O MORGAN, RAINBOW TONED! BU
Seller: tonecoin2003
Starts: Jun-12-03 19:38:35 PDT
Ends: Jun-19-03 19:38:35 PDT
Price: Currently $3.97
To view the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3030427722

Visit eBay, The World's Online Marketplace TM at http://www.ebay.com

uofa1285 · August 17, 2003 9:51AM

<< I have also emailed him before- he said he wasn't sure, and then linked to an old thread on these boards with a debate on the toning

Here's the email:

HI THERE, HOW ARE YOU!
HARD TO SAY, IF I SAY IT IS NATURAL TONED, YOU MAYBE DON'T BELIEVE ME. IF I SAY IT IS AT TONED, AND I COULDN'T FIND OUT HOW IT GOT TONED!
SO I HAVE NO IDEA, I JUST WOULD SAY IT IS UNUSUAL TONED.
ALSO A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE COLORS. THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT MY COINS IN PCGS WEB SITE, YOU CAN GO THERE BY CLICK BELOW LINK

Well, he never does claim directly that his coins are NT. But he apparently is more savvy than he is letting on (in his broken-English "foreign" writing style) by admitting to know about many members of this forum's concerns. That indicates to me he could be savvy about just what he is doing to our hobby..."poor immigrant" or not, he detracts from the overall good of our past time and investments.

uofa1285 · August 17, 2003 9:54AM

<< Doug,

Several have contacted him, and he always says the same thing. Here's a response I got from him back when he was easyman168:

<< Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:24:23 -0800 (PST)
From: MICHAEL HUANG <easyman3557@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #3301148913
To: sales@compucheap.com

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT TONING COINS. MAYBE THE COINS TONED BY TIME AND AIR OR CHEMICAL.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

MICHAEL

sales@compucheap.com wrote:
What method do you use to artificially tone these? Thanks...Russ
--------------------

Russ,

Do you still feel the same way you did after you received his Frankie back in a PCI slab and wrote your thread of results?

Doug

Russ · August 17, 2003 10:05AM

<< Do you still feel the same way you did after you received his Frankie back in a PCI slab and wrote your thread of results? >>

I didn't feel that way when I posted the thread in the first place.

Russ, NCNE

FC57Coins · August 17, 2003 10:18AM

Doug:

While it is a nice job, it still doesn't look right - as you mentioned the colors don't seem to sit right on this piece, and they bleed over onto the rims. It's darned better than some of the other crap that you see on ebay. This is where it starts to get a little scary, because as I understand it, there are doctors who do an even better job at these than whoever authored this one. This kind of work is going to ruin the toned market I think. It makes me wonder why outfits like PCI continue to condone this stuff. They should know better, but I guess there's a buck to be made - sigh!

Frank

FatMan · August 17, 2003 10:37AM

I saw dozens of questionable toned (polite way of saying AT IMHO) morgans in PCI holders this weekend at the Blue Ridge Show in Dalton this weekend.

Dog97 · August 17, 2003 10:41AM

It's easy enough to avoid buying junk like that by sticking with the no-brainer original toned ones.
In my mind if it isn't obvious bag or album tone that can be easily explained then it's AT to me & I avoid it. That PCI one looks similiar to some kind of bag tone but not enough to make me buy it. Most of the toners on sleazeBay nowdays look like that and I rarely buy anything now for that very reason.

uofa1285 · August 17, 2003 11:05AM

<< 

<< Do you still feel the same way you did after you received his Frankie back in a PCI slab and wrote your thread of results? >>

I didn't feel that way when I posted the thread in the first place.

Russ, NCNE >>

YADA YADA YADA!

dorkkarl · August 17, 2003 9:45PM

c'mon guys, your missing the point! wild'n'crazy colors in a slab only means the plastic co. think the colors are MARKET ACCEPTABLE. whether it's natural or artificial runs a distant 2nd in importance

this is the point i tried to make many times - that it's generally very easy to recognize when toning is natural or not. silver turns grey, copper turns brown. that simple.

what matters to ngc is, is it M-A.

K S

Wow, this guy is getting better and better with his AT material...#@#$%#$

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