............isn't it ironic that the Confederacy felt strongly about fighting for their freedom while at the same time they held an entire group of people in bondage?
as a true southern hillbilly, (and i say that with great pride) i can tell you too many people misunderstand the reason the civil war was fought.....it WAS NOT about slavery.. it was about tyrrany.. we didnt think the gov should tell us what to do... anyway thats a long debated question.... YES put the fine southern gentlman on a coin.....
After Stonewall Jackson was killed Lee went down hill, not withstanding his brilliant Mexican War record and 1862-63 Civil War victories. Had he listened to Longstreet at Gettysburg and rolled up the Federal left at Little Round top, which was very doable at the time on day two of Gettysburg, we'd all be in a different world--actually, I'm glad he didn't. Great Britain would have recognized the South and Lincoln would have sued for peace with Lee's forces to the north of Washington. Still its interesting to think about, just MHO.
How would you know CalGold? When did your grandparents sit you down and explain why thier parents or grandparents fought in the civil war? right i didn't think so... At what age were you when the culture you grew up in started teaching you the reasons from a southerners view that the war was fought? right i didnt think so. How old were you when your father told you about why your great great grandfather and his brothers fought in the war and why? right i didnt think so....BECAUSE THEY NEVER DID BECAUSE THEY DONT KNOW WHY.......Slavery was the second worse thing to ever happen to race of peoiple in history, only surpassed by the Holocaust........ But until you grow up in the south and are taught the real reasons why we fought you can only give unintellegent views and opinions...JMHO
<< <i>.......Slavery was the second worse thing to ever happen to race of peoiple in history, only surpassed by the Holocaust........ >>
Actually owning slaves is probably far more detrimental to one's humanity than being one. Certainly being a slave can crush the spirit but owning a slave will crush one's very humanity. A slave is a victim of circumstances and can at least dream of freedom, but the owner has to reconcile his actions and beliefs. He has no constraints or restraints to blame.
VRTECH 99-- so what is your point? I'm a die hard states rights person but please be more specific--the south lost because they did not have the industrial ability to compete and Lee totally erred at Gettysburg by failing to follow Longstreet's advice--this resulted in Great Britain's decision not to recognize the legitimacy of the south to secede. I'm not unhappy that we still live in a United states. Please understand that I still go periodically to visit my great grandfathers grave in the Texas State Cemetery--who fought with Taliferro's Georgia Regiment. Not that that means a hell of a lot--but says I have some minimal right to comment.
Then why did 10's of thousands of brave black men die fighting for the south? The war was not begun or fought to end slavery.... I am sorry to contradict your history books, but i know.... my ancestors didnt own black slaves, in fact they worked with them in the fields for food and clothing because they were "hill folk" I know what i know not from a book but from real life people who know////////
billboat, i am sorry for not making it clear i was replying to calgold and his remark... I take offence to someone whom has done nothing but read about the civil war in some 5th grade history class and lets their alligator mouth overide their hummingbird arses!!!!!!
Constellatio Collector sevenoften@hotmail.com --------------------------------- "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!" "If it don't make $" "It don't make cents""
Personally, I would like R.E. Lee on (another) commemorative, it would give me a chance to get a Civil War commem. at issue price (I find that period of history very interesting). On a side note, my hometown (in Minnesota) was briefly laid siege to during the civil war.
Looking for info on MN national banknotes from New Ulm, Sleepy Eye, Mankato, Hanska, and Lake Crystal. Also Two Harbors, Duluth, Brainerd, and Ely.
I will never deny the valor of Blacks in the effort to save the Union or negate the valor of the men of the South in trying to uphold what in their belief was right. As a native Texan I'm very pleased with the outcome--I would have it no other way--that said, Robert E.Lee deserves recognition as a great American if for no other reason than he exemplifies the duality of our culture and the pain of making a personal choice.
I have a geneology book of my family that goes back quite a ways, to the late 1600's in fact. My family was somewhat wealthy in Civil War times. Many of them were slave-owners. There were also members of my family that were against slavery. When the war came around, both sides of my family enlisted on both sides of the war, for the Union and for the Confederacy. I have original, that's right, original letters in my posession of my family members writing their wives making derogatory comments toward other members for being on the other side and whatnot. All I can say is that it was a totally different time in our nation's history that we cannot comprehend entirely by simply reading books. Yes, blacks fought for BOTH sides. There were even blacks that had no idea what they were going to do when they were free. Keep in mind that most slaves were treated quite well. It is the few that were not treated well that make it into the history books and that you hear about.
That is not at all justifying slavery but there were also many free blacks in those times. All a slave-owner had to do was say, you're free! Jefferson did it for many of his slaves after his death. You need to also remember that slavery is ancient and it is not all white people holding black people in slavery. There were slaves of all races in ancient times. If you were a conqueror in ancient times, you had every right under their laws of combat to hold your enemy in slavery. Many enemies committed suicide before they ever allowed this to happen!
Lincoln himself once said that he would preserve the Union and keep slavery intact if he could. The abolishment of slavery was merely a byproduct of the war. Had the war never come I think slavery may have lasted many years beyond 1865. The civil war was much more than this. The civil war was just waiting to happen. It nearly happened during our revolutionary days, nearly happened in 1812 and then everything started getting more heated during Buchanan's administration.
Having come from a family that murdered themselves over this issue, I do believe I have an emotional pull to it, a connection to both sides if you will. I do feel that Lee is an honorable man and deserves the right to be commemorated for it. Remember, Lee gave up his slaves long before the war! I trust he would not have fought to keep slavery if he gave up his own slaves before it even started. Lee was going to go with wherever Virginia was going to go. Had Virginia been in the Union, I'm sure Lee would have been for the Union during the war.
very well said billboat.. (even tho i ain't crazy bout the outcome) LOL, i just wish more people would really try and understand that not just slave owners fought in the civil war..... it was fought because the gov wouldn't let the states succeed from the union... and the north actually started the war.... the south fought just as the colonies did 90 years before for a lot of the same principles ... thats all i wish... just look at the war with an open mind... there was more to it than freeing the slaves....JMHO
<< <i> Robert E.Lee deserves recognition as a great American if for no other reason than he exemplifies the duality of our culture and the pain of making a personal choice. >>
Granted. It took great courage to make the choice he did, and many others had a very similar and even more painful choice to make. If he had made his choice because of his beliefs, or because he believed the greatest right was in the Confederacy then I would applaud his efforts and his decision. I would believe his tremendous courage was very much in the American spirit and sup- port even a circulating coin in his honor. But he said he made the choice pri- marily because of patriotism. While this too, is an admirable trait, it is hardly worthy of great honor. Many of the most horrendous acts of history have been done through a sense of patriotism. While this in no way diminishes the man, it does not seem great justification to honor his accomplishments.
I feel that I should weigh in on this. I hope that my perspective has been considered , but I am not sure if it has or not. I have commented on this before , but it is sorely needed now more than ever. My numismatic pursuits are purist in nature and totally objective, I believe that to be the mark of a true numismatist and also the mark of a true historian. I voted a resounding yes, because it fits my criteria in the way I collect. My criteria is simple.
1.Does the figure being commemorated have an impact on history regardless of good or bad? Is this someone who influenced the course of mankind? YES!, YES! I have coins with Nero on them. I have patterns with Moussolini on them, It does not mean that I am a narcassistic egomaniac who supports fascism.
2. Will the design have aesthetic appeal and elegance and symbolism to teach history and be a work of art? Hopefully, yes, and yes.
<< <i> Robert E.Lee deserves recognition as a great American if for no other reason than he exemplifies the duality of our culture and the pain of making a personal choice. >>
Granted. It took great courage to make the choice he did, and many others had a very similar and even more painful choice to make. If he had made his choice because of his beliefs, or because he believed the greatest right was in the Confederacy then I would applaud his efforts and his decision. I would believe his tremendous courage was very much in the American spirit and sup- port even a circulating coin in his honor. But he said he made the choice pri- marily because of patriotism. While this too, is an admirable trait, it is hardly worthy of great honor. Many of the most horrendous acts of history have been done through a sense of patriotism. While this in no way diminishes the man, it does not seem great justification to honor his accomplishments. >>
Louis, I think you voted to get rid of the southern flag altogether!!! LOL
Constellatio Collector sevenoften@hotmail.com --------------------------------- "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!" "If it don't make $" "It don't make cents""
<< <i> Robert E.Lee deserves recognition as a great American if for no other reason than he exemplifies the duality of our culture and the pain of making a personal choice. >>
Granted. It took great courage to make the choice he did, and many others had a very similar and even more painful choice to make. If he had made his choice because of his beliefs, or because he believed the greatest right was in the Confederacy then I would applaud his efforts and his decision. I would believe his tremendous courage was very much in the American spirit and sup- port even a circulating coin in his honor. But he said he made the choice pri- marily because of patriotism. While this too, is an admirable trait, it is hardly worthy of great honor. Many of the most horrendous acts of history have been done through a sense of patriotism. While this in no way diminishes the man, it does not seem great justification to honor his accomplishments. >>
>>
I believe that this man made his choice based upon his beliefs. If we can commemorate Eunice Shriver and Susan B.Anthony we can certainly honor Robert E. Lee--this is my last post on this topic.
Comments
al h.
for the new guy.
<< <i>it WAS NOT about slavery.. >>
And Nixon was not a crook. And Clinton did not have sex with that woman--Miss Lewinsky. And what else would you like us to belive?
<< <i>.......Slavery was the second worse thing to ever happen to race of peoiple in history, only surpassed by the Holocaust........ >>
Actually owning slaves is probably far more detrimental to one's humanity than
being one. Certainly being a slave can crush the spirit but owning a slave will
crush one's very humanity. A slave is a victim of circumstances and can at least
dream of freedom, but the owner has to reconcile his actions and beliefs. He has
no constraints or restraints to blame.
Camelot
---------------------------------
"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
"It don't make cents""
That is not at all justifying slavery but there were also many free blacks in those times. All a slave-owner had to do was say, you're free! Jefferson did it for many of his slaves after his death. You need to also remember that slavery is ancient and it is not all white people holding black people in slavery. There were slaves of all races in ancient times. If you were a conqueror in ancient times, you had every right under their laws of combat to hold your enemy in slavery. Many enemies committed suicide before they ever allowed this to happen!
Lincoln himself once said that he would preserve the Union and keep slavery intact if he could. The abolishment of slavery was merely a byproduct of the war. Had the war never come I think slavery may have lasted many years beyond 1865. The civil war was much more than this. The civil war was just waiting to happen. It nearly happened during our revolutionary days, nearly happened in 1812 and then everything started getting more heated during Buchanan's administration.
Having come from a family that murdered themselves over this issue, I do believe I have an emotional pull to it, a connection to both sides if you will. I do feel that Lee is an honorable man and deserves the right to be commemorated for it. Remember, Lee gave up his slaves long before the war! I trust he would not have fought to keep slavery if he gave up his own slaves before it even started. Lee was going to go with wherever Virginia was going to go. Had Virginia been in the Union, I'm sure Lee would have been for the Union during the war.
THANK YOU!!!!!!
DAVE
<< <i> Robert E.Lee deserves recognition as a great American if for no other reason than he exemplifies the duality of our culture and the pain of making a personal choice. >>
Granted. It took great courage to make the choice he did, and many others
had a very similar and even more painful choice to make. If he had made his
choice because of his beliefs, or because he believed the greatest right was in
the Confederacy then I would applaud his efforts and his decision. I would
believe his tremendous courage was very much in the American spirit and sup-
port even a circulating coin in his honor. But he said he made the choice pri-
marily because of patriotism. While this too, is an admirable trait, it is hardly
worthy of great honor. Many of the most horrendous acts of history have been
done through a sense of patriotism. While this in no way diminishes the man,
it does not seem great justification to honor his accomplishments.
My numismatic pursuits are purist in nature and totally objective, I believe that to be the mark of a true numismatist and also the mark of a true historian. I voted a resounding yes, because it fits my criteria in the way I collect. My criteria is simple.
1.Does the figure being commemorated have an impact on history regardless of good or bad? Is this someone who influenced the course of mankind? YES!, YES!
I have coins with Nero on them. I have patterns with Moussolini on them, It does not mean that I am a narcassistic egomaniac who supports fascism.
2. Will the design have aesthetic appeal and elegance and symbolism to teach history and be a work of art? Hopefully, yes, and yes.
3. Does the coin degenerate discourse? Yes!
Have fun collecting.
<< <i>
<< <i> Robert E.Lee deserves recognition as a great American if for no other reason than he exemplifies the duality of our culture and the pain of making a personal choice. >>
Granted. It took great courage to make the choice he did, and many others
had a very similar and even more painful choice to make. If he had made his
choice because of his beliefs, or because he believed the greatest right was in
the Confederacy then I would applaud his efforts and his decision. I would
believe his tremendous courage was very much in the American spirit and sup-
port even a circulating coin in his honor. But he said he made the choice pri-
marily because of patriotism. While this too, is an admirable trait, it is hardly
worthy of great honor. Many of the most horrendous acts of history have been
done through a sense of patriotism. While this in no way diminishes the man,
it does not seem great justification to honor his accomplishments. >>
---------------------------------
"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
"It don't make cents""
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Robert E.Lee deserves recognition as a great American if for no other reason than he exemplifies the duality of our culture and the pain of making a personal choice. >>
Granted. It took great courage to make the choice he did, and many others
had a very similar and even more painful choice to make. If he had made his
choice because of his beliefs, or because he believed the greatest right was in
the Confederacy then I would applaud his efforts and his decision. I would
believe his tremendous courage was very much in the American spirit and sup-
port even a circulating coin in his honor. But he said he made the choice pri-
marily because of patriotism. While this too, is an admirable trait, it is hardly
worthy of great honor. Many of the most horrendous acts of history have been
done through a sense of patriotism. While this in no way diminishes the man,
it does not seem great justification to honor his accomplishments. >>
>>
I believe that this man made his choice based upon his beliefs. If we can commemorate Eunice Shriver and Susan B.Anthony we can certainly honor Robert E. Lee--this is my last post on this topic.