Whiny old copper guys.

ANACONDA · July 22, 2003 1:17PM

Just a few observations.

I understand that many copper guys think current grading "standards" are too loose.

Why, though, is it, that these same guys never seem to want to fix the situation by selling THEIR coppers at the old grades... and the new prices?

Also, most whiny copper guys that I have met are in the older generation, you know, the over 40 crowd.

These older copper guys seem to be peculiarly adept at speaking out of both sides of their mouths....."I hate modern grading...it's too loose"......."Greysheet prices are too low"....and...."Can you believe that so and so tried to rip me off by offering me only X on such and such a coin!!! Why it's no longer an AU, what I bought it at, it's actually a MS63 according to what I've seen!!!...."

We (dealers and collectors) all know the guy here and there who complains about high prices AND also incongruously about not getting decent offers on their material (You can't have it both ways!!) but......it seems to me that these older copper guys are the whiniest group of guys in the entire collecting fraternity.

Why is this so?

I'm not complaining, it's just my opinion based on observation.

adrian

[...and if the shoe (sandal?) fits (over the black sox?), then wear it...]

braddick · July 22, 2003 1:20PM

Too much stroking with their camel hair brushes.

mdwoods · July 22, 2003 1:29PM

Stir that pot!!

Coulport · July 22, 2003 1:44PM

They want it both ways.
Tighter grading and lower prices (when they buy.)

Lakesammman · July 22, 2003 1:51PM

Adrian, your on to something....don't let go of the bone (pr pants leg).

I joined EAC early on in my collecting "career" and, after a few years, gave up. No matter how I tried, no one seemed able to explain to me how a net grade (in EAC lingo) is achieved with large cents. The few folks I did know had a reputation for knocking a coin when buying and promoting the same coin when selling. Not too different than other series but, since the EAC grading was so nebulous, the "victim" was at a REAL disadvantage.

The 1793 you posted is a perfect example. The only thing I learned from my efforts was to avoid large cents!

Moose - do you know of any grading sets or literature that clearly explains EAC grading?? If it's out there, let me know and I'll shut up.

ANACONDA · July 22, 2003 2:13PM

I like current modern grading of large cents. One coin, one grade based upon the general appearance of the coin - you look at the coin, you figure out what it is and you print that on a sticker and put it in with the coin and surround it with plastic so spit doesn't end up on it. Simple. Way easier than whatever the EAC people think they have. And spare me the little manilla envelopes. Geez.

Another humorous aspect ... complaints about encapsulation. Got a hammer? It becomes raw. Another simple concept seemingly out of reach for some.

ANACONDA · July 22, 2003 2:25PM

I've read the EAC grading system. I still scratch my head.....and i passed Operations Research AND Property.

Here's the real grading system used by we simple folk on the majority of coins collected by the collecting fraternity:

70 - perfect. Coins found in this condition aren't worth collecting.
69 - almost perfect. Coins found in this condition aren't worth collecting or can't be afforded.
68 - darn close to perfection. Defects barely visible with the naked eye under good lights. You'ld have to be a nit picker to comment on it's defects.
67 - a really, really nice coin but with a few blemishes.
66 - a few blemishes but something you can be proud of
65 - overall a nice coin that most people would want in their collections
64 - a few hits you'ld have to be blind to miss, but still overall a good looking coin
63 - it'll do until you get more money or untill you find a better piece
62 - headin' towards ugly
61 - ugly
60 - why bother?

Remember, it's easy to find a coin that doesn't fit into this category, so saying "what about X" doesn't mean the system doesn't work.

adrian

MrEureka · July 22, 2003 2:30PM

And spare me the little manilla envelopes. Geez.

Agreed. The last time I took coins in manilla envelopes through airport security, they opened each envelope in search of razor blades. Yes, really!

ANACONDA · July 22, 2003 2:33PM

With regard to the manilla envelopes....i know that the smart guys use little soft white inserts that they put the coins into and then put the inserts into the envelops...BUT...i've seen quite a few coins directly placed into the envelopes...in contact with the paper...made from wood pulp.

It's no wonder the chain cent has a little rub under the ear! It's a wonder that any old copper isn't rubbed!

vrtech99 · July 22, 2003 2:34PM

IF ITS NOT A mS-9679064455 AND A monster TONED AND .. THEY ARE NOT THE ONE SELLING it... everything sucks!!!! DEAL with it i have...

Coin Finder · July 22, 2003 3:05PM

Adrian, I have had these thoughts for three years. I decided to join
EAC and get to these guys from the inside. I will tell this story one time, it is true. It is not about the grading, but about the mentality. I bought a raw copper from a copper guy, a good one who has done this for a long time. I found a better variety and took this dealer up on the offer to return at anytime for 75% of the sale price. When this dealer recieved the coin, he said it had been "harshly cleaned" I told him I used Blue Ribbon and my fingers to clean some crud off. I cited the EAC manual as this is where I learned about this stuff, although they say to use a rose thorn or Qtip. He sent the coin back to me with no money. When I opened up the envelope I saw a very harshly cleaned coin. Bare copper was exposed on the high points. This was not the work of me. I wondered if it could have happened in shipping. Then it dawned on me, this is a great way to avoid a refund. You could see the bare metal from three feet away! The coin did not leave me this way. The dealer never responded to my denial or email. They are on my list. ALL this is to say the same dealer charges way more for slabbed copper than raw. And they buy slabbed copper at greysheet, but always disagree with the grade on the holder....until it is time to sell.

I was treated with no respect and accused of something I did not do. There are some good ones out there for sure. But I intend in time to set things right. It might take a couple of these old timers to retire.

Tbig

Cam40 · July 22, 2003 4:09PM

That is indeed a sad story Mark. Sorry to hear it.

I think your right though. Its a generational thing I think.Each age group or collector segment thinks the others are
idiots.
The old copper guys think anything clad is totally worthless. Well,In a manner of speaking they,re right, But
also SO wrong!!! Its a paradox.
There will always be some bias between collector groups. Theres just so many different areas too which makes it
that much more difficult..or interesting.
Just gotta respect your fellow collector, no matter what they decide to `waste their money on`.....

Dog97 · July 22, 2003 4:12PM

Wow!! thebigeng that is simply an amazing story. To think a dealer would ruin a coin just so he wouldn't have to buy it back @ 75%
No wonder they don't like slabs, they can't pull that mess with a slabbed coin.

ColonialCoinUnion · July 22, 2003 9:00PM

No doubt about the 'when I'm selling its a Peach, when I'm buying the same coin it a piece of crap' mentality over there - at least the slabs prevent that nonesense.

ClausUrch · July 22, 2003 9:28PM

Hey, let's leave the old copper guys alone! When you get old you have earned the right (and priviledge I might add) to whine, harrass, condenscend, fart in public and scratch your a$$. I say we should put them in the same room (padded) with the exuberant young toner guys and watch through a thick glass window.

jbsteven · July 22, 2003 9:36PM

<< I say we should put them in the same room (padded) with the exuberant young toner guys and watch through a thick glass window. >>

MadMonk · July 22, 2003 9:50PM

I've noticed this with a lot copper coin collectors as well. Tough group!

dorkkarl · July 22, 2003 9:54PM

sensible answers to anaconda's whiny questions:

<< I understand that many copper guys think current grading "standards" are too loose. >>

not true. copper guys realize that there is a totally, completely different "standard" for market-graded coins. don't underestimate eac-ers, we are not nearly as naive as you think

<< Why, though, is it, that these same guys never seem to want to fix the situation by selling THEIR coppers at the old grades... and the new prices? >>

again, get a clue. eac grades are based on an entirely different pricing structure then mkt-graded coins (ie. generic pcgs/ngc grades)

<< Also, most whiny copper guys that I have met are in the older generation, you know, the over 40 crowd. >>

you must hang out in the wrong crowd. i assure you from having attended plenty of eac conventions, most members are not from the older generation

<< These older copper guys seem to be peculiarly adept at speaking out of both sides of their mouths....."I hate modern grading...it's too loose"......."Greysheet prices are too low"....and...."Can you believe that so and so tried to rip me off by offering me only X on such and such a coin!!! Why it's no longer an AU, what I bought it at, it's actually a MS63 according to what I've seen!!!...." >>

uh, 1 more time, i guess. i dunno why you are making this stuff up, copper guys know that the mkt grades are based on mkt pricing structures (greysheet/trends), whereas eac grades are based on cqr prices. it is a totally different, separate pricing structure, & it seems like only uninformed collectors of generic plastic get the 2 confused. again, eac members are not so stupid, we know darn well that our grading is based on cqr pricing structure.

<< We (dealers and collectors) all know the guy here and there who complains about high prices AND also incongruously about not getting decent offers on their material (You can't have it both ways!!) but......it seems to me that these older copper guys are the whiniest group of guys in the entire collecting fraternity. >>

have you considred that maybe those are not REAL copper guys, but copper-collector-wannabe's?

finally, i can sum up your "real grading system" of 60-70 (11 grades) in 1 sentence: the grade is whatever PCGS tells me it is. i grade coins by reading the PCGS label. i can't even grade coins that don't come pre-packaged in plastic holders. duuuuhhhh, gimme da ball coach.

copper guys have a little more self-respect than that.

K S

NumisEd · July 22, 2003 10:18PM

Some of the hardcore EAC dealers are real scum balls. They will screw you in a heart beat. They are also arrogant. One EAC dealer tried to rip me off a few years ago at a St. Louis show. He did not know me and he assumed that I was some schmuck because I had long hair in a pony tail and ripped jeans and an ozzy osbourne tee-shirt (hey, it was just a phase). I paid over $1000 for a rare variety years ago and I wanted to sell it. He knew it was a rare variety because I told him so. He said, oh, too bad that it is only a G-4. The coin was F-15 all day every day. In fact, I bought the coin as a VF-35, but netted it down because the reverse had some rough spots. He offered me $200. Freakin punk! Called a coin with VF details a G-4 because of some slight reverse roughness.

To be fair, there are some good EAC dealers, but they are usually the ones that are younger and not part of the old EAC mafia, as I like to call them.

BillJones · July 22, 2003 10:56PM

A few points

I have been a member of EAC for many years. I still belong, but I guess I would describe myself as a rather disaffected member. The trouble with the organization is that it is very clannish, and there definitely is an “in crowd” that wants nothing to do with the “unwashed.” I had spoken at the EAC national convention on several occasions, and written a number of articles for “Penny-Wise,” that received a lot of positive feedback. Yet one member who heads up one of the EAC cults wouldn’t speak to me if I said, “good morning” or “good afternoon” to him. That’s just how some of these guys are.

In good old days collecting copper used to be a lot of fun. The mintages were very high (over 80% of the first U.S. mint’s output was copper), and the coins were available and affordable in collector grades like Fine and VF. Today that supply of coins has dried up, and the prices for decent coins are outrageous. Collecting early copper isn't fun any more. There’s not much room for collectors on a budget when it comes to early copper, unless one is willing to buy “junk,” which means coins that are badly damaged or corroded.

As for the grading issues it’s a mixed bag. Many coins in slabs are way overgraded and very unattractive. These are what the prices on the Gray Sheet reflect. Really nice copper with good surfaces is expensive because (1) a lot of it is in strong hands in major collections and (2) a copper dealer cartel controls a lot of the supply.

BTW I’m WELL over 40 and still an EAC member, which I guess would make me one of the dreaded folks you can’t trust who are over 40.

NumisEd · July 22, 2003 11:08PM

Bill, I should clarify that I was stereotyping with the comment about "younger" EAC dealers. There are certainly some great EAC dealers over 40, but I have found that most of the stodgy dix that treat me like pond scum tend to be part of the clique of older, longtime EAC dealers. Age has nothing to do with anything. Either you are a jerk or you are not. I agree with your post, btw.

BillJones · July 22, 2003 11:20PM

Hi Ed,

I belong to EAC, but I don't consider myself to be an EAC dealer. I get very little early copper to sell because finding nice material, which I like, is very hard to do at a price than can yield a profit for me.

RYK · July 23, 2003 12:00AM

Several years ago, after a long time (18 years) away from collecting, I decided to rekindle a childhood interest in large cents. I joined the EAC and bought several coins mail order from Rod Burress. He seemed like an "oldtimer", but he was very nice, and sold me some nice, inexpensive coins at what seemed to me to be reasonable prices. He went out of his way to find me the fabled 1801 3 errors variety in a condition that I could afford. He also spent some time guiding me into fruitful directions for a new early copper collector. My interest waned, and I stopped collecting coins for several years. I have since sold off most of these large cents, but I am holding on to those nice coins that I purchased from Rod.

CarlWohlforth · July 23, 2003 12:03AM

DK said

<< whereas eac grades are based on cqr prices >>

What does CQR mean?

Coin Finder · July 23, 2003 12:32AM

whereas eac grades are based on cqr prices.......DK

This is Copper Quotes by Robinson.

I have the lastest edition. I would love to buy some chain cents for these prices!

Tbig

NumisEd · July 23, 2003 12:37AM

RYK, Rod Buress is one of the good guys in EAC. I agree with you.

IronmanDuke · July 23, 2003 12:38AM

I had a similar experience to thebigeng’s.

To celebrate my Mom’s birth in 1926, her uncle went to the Phila Mint and got a 2 ½ gold piece. He gave it to my grandmother the next day. Purely uncirculated.

At one point, the coin was taped to a piece of cardboard so it wouldn’t be lost. For the last 20 years, it’s been in a plastic holder.

I was going to submit it for grading. It had some tape remnants. I did all the reading and knew that my options were to have it professionally “conserved” or to use some acetone (a good inert cleaner for removing tape). For another opinion, I took it to a local – very well known – dealer in the Phila area.

The owner’s son took the coin, snapped it out of its case, said “this coin is damaged, it’s no good” and proceeded to SCRAPE and GOUGE the tape off with his fingernail.” He still said he’d give me $150 for the now-damaged coin.

I quickly stopped him, but there are now gouge-marks across the face of this absolutely beautiful 1926 gold 2 ½ .

It will be a very long time until I trust a dealer (other than any board members).

Dog97 · July 23, 2003 2:34AM

Damn IronmanDuke, that was total BS!

like you said a simply acetone soaking is all it needed.
I guess we should expect as much from tightwad old skinflints that are so cheap they specialize in PENNIES.

dorkkarl · July 23, 2003 3:20AM

ahem, they are CENTS!

<< This is Copper Quotes by Robinson. ... I would love to buy some chain cents for these prices! >>

you can. very easily! however, you must be willing to align yourself w/ the corresponding grading system.

again, you continue to confuse eac grades w/ grades listed in mkt. retail guides.

K S

LucyBop · July 23, 2003 3:24AM

I remember when I was very young, my grandfather would give me the big pennys from the 1800s....... I still have a few of them... I love them and these type of coins are the ones to cherish the most.... I miss you Granpa.

jadecoin · July 23, 2003 3:40AM

Hey Lucy, purists refer to them as cents!

dorkkarl · July 23, 2003 3:42AM

i agree!

K S

Coin Finder · July 23, 2003 3:43AM

Hey Dork,

I am looking at the book. I am not confusing anything. I call a chain scudzy the copper dealer calls it ave minus.

Would you please define scudzy for me seeing how you know so much.

Tbig

topstuf · July 23, 2003 3:52AM

How droll.

Rilly! Coppah has CACHET! You would expect me to collect vulgah DOLLAHS? How GAUCHE!

Come on folks, you've all seen it. WHERE is the table with NONE of the coins slabbed? Why, the COPPER guy of cawss. And the dealer wears SPECTACLES.....not GLASSES. And he is reading Chaucer instead of Hustler. And he BRINGS his lunch.....with a thermos of Earl Grey tea.

"WHINY OLD COPPER GUYS???" PLEASE......if you dawn't undahstand, sir, please move along. Thank you.

dorkkarl · July 23, 2003 3:57AM

hey bigeng, i misunderstood what you were asking. in that case, YES, you can be ripped by a dealer if he desrcibes your coin as "scudzy", you call it "choice" & in reality it is average.

there is no set def'n of scudzy, but generally speaking, if it's ugly, it's scudzy.

K S

jbsteven · July 23, 2003 4:00AM

At all the big shows I can say all of the copper specialists are no where close to being even 40! I am 32 and can say that I am usually the YOUNGEST dealer on the whole bourse. 40 is rare for a coin dealer but the sweet spot for dealers seems to be 45-60 years old.

just a observation.

BigMoose · July 23, 2003 8:20AM

Lakesammman, EAC grading is not all that difficult. First, you determine a sharpness grade- EF, VF, AU, Mint State etc. Then you take the sharpness grade and deduct points for any problems such as porosity, excessive marks, poor luster, edge dings etc. Once you do it for awhile, it becomes second nature. Its relatively easy to translate an EAC grade to a slab grade. A slabbed ms63 usually is in the range of an EAC net graded AU50 or 55. We will talk about this at the ANA Convention and I will bring some examples.

Adrian, we need to have a long talk in Baltimore!

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · July 23, 2003 9:49AM

I am a whiny old copper guy because I am over 40 and I collect the BEST quality early copper.I love RED cents or Pennys as the English call them.I am fascinated with half cents. I only collect high end mint state early coppers.

AND THEY ARE VERY RARE !!!!!!!

EAC grading is structured by the amount of red on the coin

Gordon Wrubel is a grader at PCGS.He is also one of the founders of EAC.

The 1793 Chain Cent that Adrian is talking about is a very scarce coin with details on it. I believe it was the first coin manufactured for circulation.It shouldn't matter what EAC grades the coin,nor PCGS or NGC.

One more point is anyone who has been to an early copper coin auction will have experienced fever unparalled in the coin business.

The next auction will be part 1 of the John Ford collection in
New York in October.

Stewart Blay

Whiny old copper guys.

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