I am really bothered by this Resubmitting theory.. Ok you send a coin to the #1 grading service in the world--PCGS-- it comes back a grade less than u thought... so you pay another fee to re-submit--- it comes back the same grade-- you still don't agree--- you re-submit it comes back what u want--- ok what does it say for the grading service???? i have over 2000 coins pre- 1921 none graded, and they never will be... I know the grade.. they are for me and my family... so why would a person re-submit a coin unless they were trying to make a profit on a coin they alrealy STOLE from an uninformed coin owner????? Or is the only reason poeple have coins graded nowdays is to try and better the value of the coin they bought from someone for profit???? I do own many state quarter graded coins, just so i can pass them on and draw more interest from my grand kids.......... i just don't get it!!!!
If one is intellectually HONEST, they would admit that the uncomfortability with resubmitting modern registry sets or "condition rare" modern coins, whether as an exercise or part of a purchase agreement -- stems from the changing, unpredictable, and vulnerable state those coins have to corporate plastic with labels.
Being as intellectually honest as I can, that's a load. Solid for the grade coins will make the grade every time, and I have no fear cracking one out, sending it to another service, or resubmitting it. The coin simply is what it is. If you can see the difference in 66 and 67, you know it when you see it raw, holdered, or cracked. The last coin I submitted was a raw 1966 SMS MS68 Dcam JFK. I PM'd a buddy here my grades before submitting, and sent the coin to NGC. It graded MS68 Ucam. The buyer wanted the coin in PCGS plastic, so we crossed it, and it crossed at MS68 Dcam on the first pass. If offered the coin raw today, I'd still know it was a MS68 Dcam. The only coins I'd fear raw to be honest are coins like early copper, where the margin for interpretation is so great, or perhaps certain classic coins that are frequently counterfeited. Modern coins are for the most part far more predictable. JMO
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
"Most modern bashers bash moderns because of their inability to grade within the 67-70 spectrum"
That was silly. You think that my eye for details is less proven because I collect colonials and am expert at details on coins other than common moderns? My eye was looking at mint state coins since I was creating highly-detailed art at 12 years old. Now, I know you weren't talking about me specifically, but to assume that people who have problems with some of the inherent risks or corporate marketing of modern condition rare coins have less of an ability to grade within that spectrum is absurd.
That statement is like me saying that most colonial bashers bash colonials because of their inability to assess variety attributions of fugio cents. I would assume that the experts at detail for condition rare moderns have the ability to discern fine differences between shapes, slants, specks, colors, strikes, planchets, marks, scratches, and so forth regardless of the kind of coin. I would never penalize someone for not having a lot of experience studying the particular fine details on the particular coins I own, when they feel the colonial coins I collect are not much better looking that round pieces of dirt anyway, that just don't look nice and minty enough, or aren't easily put into sets that are easy to assemble.
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Dheath, that's YOU. I respect that, but remember, that's just you and that's just a portion of the market you are referring to. I respect you and all collectors, but please remember, I am talking about the loads of people who resubmit, do crackouts, and sell this stuff. I accept what you say -- that my comment was a load in your case. But please consider what I am saying: there ARE lots of sellers that would hate to do that because of the changing assessments and labels that are bound to occur. Maybe your coins are clear cut cases but I am sure there are lots of condition rare coins and registry sets that would come back quite different under my challenge, wouldn't you agree? If you do, that is the heart of the point I raise.
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<< <i>The last coin I submitted was a raw 1966 SMS MS68 Dcam JFK. I PM'd a buddy here my grades before submitting, and sent the coin to NGC. It graded MS68 Ucam. >>
Don did indeed do that. And, he was right on the money with his grade estimates.
You are mistaken by my remarks Founding Father... The one dream coin i have is.... 1799 Draped cent... to me that is my dream.... that i would pay many bucks for....
I guess I am guilty of bashing moderns on occasion. Sorry if I offended anyone that collects them. In my opinion moderns are a whole different type of coin collecting than the classics and the two really can't be compared. If you enjoy what you collect don't let the comments of others bother you. Maybe one of these days CU will give the modern coin collectors their own forum that way everybody will be able to share the coins of their choice with collectors of similiar interest. mike
I am sure there are lots of condition rare coins and registry sets that would come back quite different under my challenge, wouldn't you agree? If you do, that is the heart of the point I raise.
Actually FoundingFather I do agree. There are many instances in which the grade isn't clearcut, and there is much too large a premium assigned to a single grade point. That said, there are legitimately instances where the difference is measureable and the grade clearcut. I really expect it's the same in your area of specialization, but I take your point, and respect your willingness to share it. It just doesn't seem limited to moderns to me. I mean no ill will. Just differing points of view. I think it has alot to do with what we each collect. Hey, yours are rare in any grade, mine aren't!
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Buyer: OK, how about if I buy them, and try to sell them raw without the plastic, you guarantee I will recover, let's say, 65% of my buying cost?
Seller: No thanks. >>
One can say precisely the same thing about classic coins in today's internet driven marketplace. Just look at how many times we see a post such as "if that coin didn't have problems it would be in a slab" when referring to listings for potentially expensive classic coins. Classics invariably sell for far less raw than they would if graded. They are no different than moderns in that respect.
I believe the current State quarters series have given all of us old timers a great opportunity to get our kids and grandkids involved in this grest hobby.... And MAYBE (i dont know) a hundred years from now an MS-67 pcgs graded coin will be worth somethin... Do i think an ms-67 state quarter is worth the $130 people are paying now??? HELL no... not to me... BUT MAYBE TO THEM IT IS..... And that is just great with me.....
i don't think you're referenced coin is a good example for this arguement simply because it is so superior. a better example might be a coin that is solid for the grade----IYHO----but has some room around. something like a common date coin in a grade of MS65 with a highest graded of MS68 where the coin isn't such a dramatic change from the ordinary might be a little tougher to crack than that Kennedy.
I agree that it's an extreme example, but I think it's perhaps more valid than a 65-66 example because the extreme examples are after all where the big grade premiums exist. For a modern to justify big multiples when it is not rare, it has to be jaw-dropping, and the quality obvious. I guess that's the point I was hoping to make.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
but here's the rub-------It seems illogical to crackout/resubmit coins and at the same time believe a 10x premium for one grade point is justified.
that's the remark that prompted the reply about intellectual honesty. it carries some weight. but, on we go............
not to be critical, but i do recall somewhat the process by which you ended up submitting that DCAM Jefferson to PCGS via NGC via PCGS. i think that had something to do with your tactic of submitting the Kennedy to PCGS via NGC. my feeling is that you thought with both coins there was a better chance of getting the crossover than the crackout and resubmission, unless i'm confused and have it wrong. in your post, you make reference to having no fear cracking one out, sending it to another service, or resubmitting it. in truth, you must have had some reservation since you crossed and didn't crack. remember, i'm not being critical of that choice, just trying to get the facts straight.
Look if you buy a coin in a slab and have it re submitted fine... you are trying to make a buck or two... cool.... But dont be so self serving a holes and give people crap about doing the same thing.... i personally dont believe in it ,,, but im not a dealer... i sell extras of coins i dont want... i dont buy coins and go HHHHEEEYYYY I CAN RESUBMIT AND GET A 1 POINT HIGHER GRADE AND MAKE $5OO BUCKS.......DANG I'M GREAT!!!!!!!!!!.... bUT WHEN YOU DO DON'T CONDEMN PEOPLE LIKE Daniel Carr FOR HIS ACTION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's like i told him... There is not one of you who has ever bought a coin and not turned around and tried to make a profit,,,, remember the $6 toned morgan that was bought at the flee market and put up for bid @ $2000.. Oh I forgot the rule.... You can buy a classic/rare coin for dirt and sell it at whatever profit you can get and it's ok..... Dang i forgot!!!!!!!
Great, everyone's happy but me. I should just allow the thread to die on that basis but there's been something bothering me all day. That is the assertion that one of the problems with moderns is that there are a lot of resubmissions. I didn't see this until I had to leave and it has come back.
It is a brand new attack against moderns and it is almost certainly untrue. Coins which get cracked out are coins that can go either way. Coins like a CC dollar thay might go 65 or 67. Coins like a bust half with a slight rub that could go AU-58 or MS-63 would be prime candidates. For the main part moderns being graded are uncs. They are no question uncs with no trace of a rub or impairment caused by decades of storage. Or they are proof and only recently removed from a set. They haven't had long times to acquire hairlining by being wiped by or rubbed against cloth.
Not only are the odds of getting a higher grade much more poor with moderns but the econ- omic incentive is generally absent. These coins sell for much lower prices. The few that even approach the prices of the classics are so rare that if they were really being resubmitted a lot it would be obvious to market participants.
This is not to say that I have any major problem with people cracking out their coins in an at- tempt to get higher grades. As long as it's their coins and their submission fees I have no problem whatsoever. Those who do have a problem with it might want to consider moderns.
my feeling is that you thought with both coins there was a better chance of getting the crossover than the crackout and resubmission
Keets, I thought they (PCGS) misgraded the 67 SMS Jeff. If you'll recall, I posted a thread a month before PCGS posted grades saying I thought the coin a MS67 Dcam. PCGS graded it MS67 Cam. I had no fear of cracking the coin, but I'm not a big resubmitter. I just sent it to NGC raw, where it graded MS67 Ucam. Frankly, PCGS would have never seen the coin again had the buyer not crossed it. To me, it was always a MS67 Dcam. I don't think how they are submitted matters much. I submitted the Jeff raw to both services. The JFK was crossed by request.
Edited to add - one last thought re crossovers, at a crossover rate of 25% NGC->PCGS, raw would probably be more effective. JMO.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
You wrote: "I initially got into them largely to make some fast money perhaps"
I don't see how you are not part of my generalization, or how you don't sound like those in my analogies. I stand behind what I said, and I believe there is some generalized truths to it. I believe the truth behind the crackouts, the corporate pop reports and labels, the wave of hype, and the inherent extra risks and vulnerabilities of "condition rarity" is what I was focusing on. Not someone's integrity or right to sell or buy or whatever. >>
I have never claimed to be a saint or an altruist, and frankly aspire to neither. I freely admit that i'm as human as the next guy with all the frailties and weaknesses that plague us. The profit motive was not the sole motive even in the beginning. It was a golden op- portunity to learn about many subjects that I was already interested in. Even before I started scouring pocket change for coins I was scouring it for the lessons it could teach. It was in 1972 that the fed and mint adopted FIFO accounting and it became apparent that with their stocks of coin being rotated continually that the nicer coins would eventually be- come rare. It was the 80's before I began assembling the coins into a collection and it was 1997 before I started assembling sets strictly from circulation.
It seems improbable that you'll be able to find any human endeavor which doesn't have ele- ments of all human strenghts and weaknesses.
I gotta be honest ( and serious here for a minute) as bad as i hate to... I am 56 years old, i have about a thousand Morgan dollars most from my grand father, about a thousand other coins all before 1921.... i have never submitted a coin to be graded,,, i have collected since 1963. and believe i can grade as good as any grader... I started sending in the state quarters to be graded for my grandson.. my goal is a complete set of ms-67 ... so far i have submitted 46 coins, 16 were ms67.. 29-66's, 1-65.... and out of all of them i never considered re-submitting hem,,,,,, Now my concern is... Do you all realize the threads on here make a newby (as i am) cause i have never believed in grading services ( and still believe they are way overhyped) even more skeptical when it takes 3 submissions for the same coin to get the grade you want......
TOO BIG a part of many condition rare modern coins/sets is "getting a little lucky" or "some crackouts." This is why it is safer to put a lot of money (just talking investment talk here, since so many hypsters talk about the value of these coins increasing) into true rarity -- a fingerprint or pop report change showing up later on won't have the same chance of wiping out so much of the coin's value like it would with a condition rare modern that is mass produced and common. I understand people don't collect what is safer for their money necessarily, or even care about these issues. These issue come up when sellers are pitching how their value is going to soar, while denying the extra vulnerability these modern coins have, as they collect your dollars (same tactic for pitching those high-tech stocks a few years ago).
>>
No question about it. It obviously is far safer putting your money into classics than into moderns. The only significant danger for classics is that there could be no new generation of collectors to buy them in a few years when the older collectors retire and begin selling their collections.
Moderns face myriad dangers in the short and medium term. But they have one thing going for them that can't simply be dismissed as an aberration; The market for these coins is exploding. If these markets get even a large fraction of the size of the classic markets than valuations will have to be adjusted tremendously and it will be generally upward. Coins that are as rare as some classics in absolute terms or in grade terms now sell for tiny fractions of the price of the classics. If this market were larger then this would not be the case.
This is not to say that I would advocate either group of coins as investments. One should invest in real estate or the stock market or Japanese yen, not in coins. But if one chooses to put money in coins then the classics are far more secure and the moderns have far more potential.
It seems to me that if you submit a coin (and pay $30) to have it graded and you have to resubmit it 2 more times and it changes a grade higher... What about the coin changed to make it grade higher???????? I AM LOST... LIKE I SAID... A 67 IS A 67 IS A67 ......
<< <i>It seems to me that if you submit a coin (and pay $30) to have it graded and you have to resubmit it 2 more times and it changes a grade higher... What about the coin changed to make it grade higher???????? I AM LOST... LIKE I SAID... A 67 IS A 67 IS A67 ...... >>
You said you were a newbie in the grading game. This statement shows it.
Grading is subjective, not scientific. A 67 can be a 66 one day and a 68 another. It is not an absolute and never will be. Your ability to grade may or may not be relevant to the grading services (talk to an EAC member). There is no bigger false statment than A 67 IS A 67 IS A67 when it comes to the grading services.
This ends the lesson.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
iF THATS TRUE... THEN WE SHOULD NOT HAVE COINS GRADED BY ANY SERVICE (WHICH I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED) A COIN DOES NOT GO UP A POINT IN GRADE IN A DAY.. IT MIGHT GO DOWN.. BUT NEVER UP... SO THAT TELL S ME.. WE ARE ALL INVOLVED IN A BIG GAME OF CHANCE.... A COIN SHOULD NOT BE GRADED ONE GRADE TODAY AND AFTER TWO MORE SUBMISSIONS A POINT HIGHER BY ANY GRADER.. PERIOD... JUST PROVES MY POINT... ITS NOT WHAT YOU GOT,, JUST WHO YA KNOW.. OR DRIVE NUTS TO GET YOUR WAY... EITHER WAY..SLABBED COINS ARE A BIG SCAM!!!!!!!!!!
I would be wiling to make a wager here amongst all of you great grading proffessionals... I will take one of my PCGS MS-67 State quarters, i will resubmit for an upgrade( in the pcgs holder) 2 times looking for a ms-68, and when i get that all i ask of anyone of you is to tell me what made the coin a point higher in grade value in the nexy couple of months..... DEAL???????
dbldi55... you never told me what happenned to a coin that would make it a grade higher a month later from the same grading service>................. Yea i can take a ms67 from pcgs and it will probably grade a ms70DMPL from ICG.... But not PCGS, and if it did i would ask for my original sub fee back!!!!!!
OH yea dbl... I never said i was a newbie to coin grading...... i am a newbie to this chicken manure candy butt supposed to be proffesional coin forum..... I have been grading coins since 1963.. and was taught by a gentleman who new coins not by a magazine i get in the mail every month!!!!
In real life grades are a continuum and we just assign discrete numbers to them. Actually, there are multiple continuums if you consider the various factors separately (strike, luster, marks, etc...) So to expect every coin to be consistently given the same grade is simply unrealistic. Even with near-perfect grading consistency, a theoretical 67.50 could go 67 or 68 on any given day.
And of course near-perfect consistency simply does not exist. There are these pesky complex fluid-filled emotional creatures examining your coin.
I think grading within +/- 1 point accuracy is about the most that can be reasonably expected. Still, compared to the "good old days", that's a pretty big improvement. At least with professional grading you have some attempt at an impartial standard and some semblance of consistency. And a cash-backed grade guarantee for when things go awry.
<< <i>OH yea dbl... I never said i was a newbie to coin grading...... i am a newbie to this chicken manure candy butt supposed to be proffesional coin forum..... I have been grading coins since 1963.. and was taught by a gentleman who new coins not by a magazine i get in the mail every month!!!! >>
Vrtech 99 - I sure hope you are currantly taking music lessons,
Okay, take a MS67 buffalo nickel for $1,500 (in a PCGS holder) crack it out (this is critical to getting upgrades, not leaving in the holder as this leaves a bias and any results are meaningless.) The coin comes back in a MS68 holder(a PCGS holder). You sell the coin to the top Buffalo Nickel person in the country (the same person PCGS honored this week) for $15,000. What grade was incorrect?
This sort of thing happens every day. Crack your MS67 state quarter out and resubmit it (only if you feel it is really a MS68). If you leave it in the holder I will almost guarantee that 99.99999% of the time it will come back the same grade.
By the way, the dealer who did the buffalo example above will be grading for PCGS in August (grading again at PCGS, he graded there in the past). If you honestly believe that once a coin is graded, it will always be that grade, then you are crazy. I never said you couldn't grade, but it does sound like you are new to the game that is played every day in the coin world now.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Why do so many newbies come onto this forum and feel like they have to take on the world?
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Maybe it is just that they feel like they have to let everyone know that they are coin saavy.
ok vrtech, we believe you. You know coins.
Good, we need more of you here on the boards.
Either choose to play the slab game or dont. If you choose to play the game, play by the rules if that suits you. If not, keep your coins raw. Like you certainly know, they are the same coin in plastic or not.
I agree,, i am new to the grading deal.... I have not ever sent one of my Morgans to be graded and will never send one based on what i have read here.... i have never owned a coin that actually gained a point grade wise.... have had a few the kids got into that lost agrade or two.. but never a coin that "GOT BETTER WITH AGE".. look i think we should have a very simple grading service that the coin will grade the same after 20 subs as it did the first.. and if it doesn;'t thats wrong. You should not keep having to pay the same grading service time after time to get a higher grade.. that is ridiculous... The same grading service should always grade the same coin the same... If it doesn't why send it in????? I understand a PCI ms 70 will at best get a ms66 or 67 pcgs,, thats fine but pcgs should grade the same coin the same everytime... thats what we pay for....Excellent grading the first time.......
I understand if 7 different people look at the same coin you will get several grades... but PCGS has a total of 7 graders... 2 of which just grade moderns.. that leaves 5 for everything else... the same grader giving a coin two different grades on two different occasions is crazy..... And just to make matters clear.. I am NOT COIN SAVY... I know the grades of my coins and am comfortable with that and the ability to grade the coins i buy..... Thats it!!!!!!!!! But no coin sent to PCGS and graded by the same grader (which they are) should ever grade higher than it did the time before... if it does.. then pay $120 have it graded 4 times when you send it in and save the postage!!!!!!!
the same grader giving a coin two different grades on two different occasions is crazy
No, it's just human. Nobody on this planet that can assign the exact same "correct" grade every time.
Even assuming unchanging standards, and the same guy grading, and applying an unbiased opinion each time, etc... on a borderline coin it is necessarily a judgement call.
And judgement is affected by innumerable factors which change from moment to moment and day to day. Except maybe in the movies...
don't you realize that the line MODERN Bashers TICK ME OFF!!!!!! is akin to inviting ants to a picnic?? i'm anxious to watch this thread run it's 4 page life of stupid arguements.
NOT to be a "modern basher" but,well, i may as well pipe in and tell ya'll how it really is. it's khaos 100%. on the state quarter deal, when this thing first hit and folks were going nutto to get some but couldnt find orig wrapped bu rolls,$100 or $1000 bags and the phone calls were coming in like 10-15 a day (and still continue today) while all the dealers were getting 25 to 75 to 150%+ over face for these 25c per coin items from these complete IDIOTS buying them off ebay or out of coin world ads for OVER FACE VALUE and PLUS shipping (why in the hell would anyone do that?) one of my best friends who has been in charge of the ordering from the fed reserve locales,n/o, atlanta,dallas,etc, here at the main branch of trustmark fed bank for 20 yrs is the orderer of coins from the fed branches i would help these collectors out by putting them in contact with my boy here local. i could not partake in a premium for gajillions minted common commerce intended use coins. he would simply place a profitable order as they accumilated daily from one of the fed sites that could NOT legally swap for more than FACE value ANY of these coins. it's totally illegal for them to do so. well anyway the fed branches get the coins at a heavy discount from face from the treasury dept, they transport (ship) still at a discount to each major city's fed reserve pull bank and we helped in the last 4 years get many o customer all they wanted at face value mint sealed bags slated for the fed branch distribution into normal commmerce. in the meantime i must have sold 5-600 bags over coinnet to dealers who couldnt figure this simple procedure out (or did not have a connection at a local fed puller) and must have made an extra 200g just on these state quarter bag buyers on coin net paying premiums to fill orders at an even more substantial premiums by the roll,10 roll, bag lots, etc. when all the while all these things are worth is a damn quarter people !!! JHC ! talk about nutcase rationalization ? this state quarter thing is the mostest farce of a farce i have even seen occur and not just for coins, in ANYTHING ! whats up with folks who buy coins made in the billions and billions like change you get at mcdonalds for a big mac the kid whacks on the edge of the register drawer giving you change when all they are is a private company or bank rolled rolls of unc state q's ?? and all you have to do is find a fed puller branch bank and get the vault orderer get you some exact date/mm stuff. insist if you have to or ask for a vp of the bank. you'll get em and as you specify as they can order that way and it's still all at a discount to the banks like the one on your corner. they generally get about 8% off face the fed branches disperse to the avg banks upon their acqusition at about 82-85% of face from the treasury dept. SAME scenario with the sac dollars, i got as many as i could to fill coin net orders same source before it became such a blatant scam upon the normal joe "coin world orderer" that i left it behind due to concerns of ethics and dispersement of normal coinage only worth FACE VALUE this is NO 50-d 5c bu roll deal here. ok,ok, an ms69 state quarter is a hard nut to crack. SO? there are jillions still sittin in fed branches. ok, a pr69dcam sac dollar or state quarter ? hell, that's what they were ALL intented to be as the process of minting proof cameos is fine tuned to the max. these coins are worth what they are proportionately worth while still in the proof sets,that's it folks. yeah, they throw out an uhhh "pr70dcam" to promote the idea of sending in coins worth a few bucks so the sellers can get hundreds or thousands for 69 and 70 dcams, thus a whole bunch of submissions for coins worth nothin more than as issued, whether at face or prorate value in a proof set's value. we are going to have a supersonic backlash to this matter in just a few years when all these uhhh "registry sets" of regular stuff (but in a holder that says "xyz") folks have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on slabs that will inevitably actually consist of a couple hundred bucks worth of coins. it's simply stupid investing or hobby purchasing, whichever rationalization these/you folks apply who buys this stuff. why do you think all these dealers slabbing this stuff are scrambling trying to get as many in asap as possible and sell them to the IDIOTS asap the last few years and the next few years to come ?? because they already know there are 10's and 10's of thousands times more of these in a 5-10 year period that will grade the same when sumbitted. it's a guppy deal. then the bubble burst, hundreds, if not thousands of collectors/investors end up with coins they paid say $500 for that arent worth $20 or less. millions upon millions will be wasted and folks will have learned the hard way anything minted with half billion or near billion figures per each issue have nothing but face value coins (with the exceptions to mules,odd errors,etc) and those with the proof stuff will learn the hard way that "golly gee" when i bought my pr69dcam or ms 68,9 buff dollars,$5 golds,etc,etc,xyz coins with a pop of 25 that's now 2000 pieces slabbed same grades they are going to be ruint finacially in their holdings. many will be ruint in such a negative way it could cause personal financial ruin. i know many folks have a lot of serious money in this stuff and it gets touted by the biggest of bigs to the crafty peon ebayers who buys proof sets and bu examples to do nothing but slab em turning a .25c or $1 coin into a $100 to $500 to $1000+ to sell them to -> stupid <- is that you ? ask yourself truthfully. brings to mind the TV commercial of the dorky geek waddling up to the surf boys waiting on a good wave on a 1950's version of a surf board wearing welding goggles,looking like the babbling idiot that he is. of course the theme of the commercial is a simple message and that is: "you dont want to be this guy". wake up people this is not like a stash back of a bunch of orig bu walker or buff rolls or some knockout pre-40's bu rolls of anything that is actually worth what it's worth. this is madness to the idiotic ultimate degree.
One knowledgable collector says "Most modern bashers bash moderns because of their inability to grade within the 67-70 spectrum." while another says "I think grading within +/- 1 point accuracy is about the most that can be reasonably expected."
In my case the first quote is not true and the last quote from Supercoin in my opinion speaks volumes. The second quote expresses the sentiment I've heard from some of the best graders in the industry and it's one of the reasons (I've mentioned my other reasons in other post in this thread) paying tremendous one point grade rarity premiums doesn't make sense TO ME.
My opinion regarding this issue (not modern versus classic but paying huge grade rarity premiums versus not) comes down to three things:
1. I don't assign 90 ~ 99% of a coins value based on the minor things that differentiate coins in the loftier grades. 2. I don't think the graders at PCGS or NGC are consistent enough in judging those things that make for a 1 point variation in grade to put multiples of 10x ~ 100x confidence as far as price is concerned in the grade they assign. 3. I'm not very confident that the market values currently being assigned to these coins will hold for the long term.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
<< <i>Anytime anyone bashes certain coins or market values, it's an attempt to boost the value (or perceived value) of the coins they currently hold. >>
i've been meaning to solve your 6-shooter/7 men being insulted crisis when matters come to this point in time, you pick and shoot the first 2 sqaure between the eyes deader than a doornail. plop, they hit the ground. then you pick one of the 5 left to tie up and secure the other 4 and shoot square between the eyes the one who tied up the other 4. now,with the remaining 4 bound and tied. see how bad any of the 4 remaing with your 3 remaining bullets tries anything funny. you then have the situation under full control and determine the next best move. it's simple underdog stategy to concure and overcome odds.
DHeath, thanks for the understanding. Russ, I disagree that is has no merit -- I think there is a lot of truth behind it. While it is true within classics as well, I am pointing to the large volume of such activity and issues behind moderns in particular. In other words, yes, it exists for all coins -- but that's not my point. My point is that it's much more frequent, and profitable for more people, in modern sectors.
Anyway, thanks for putting up with me guys. I'm a little obnoxious but I like that. I read this forum more than I post, and it's for one reason -- you guys are a wealth of info. Later.
::salute::
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Being as intellectually honest as I can, that's a load.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
That was silly. You think that my eye for details is less proven because I collect colonials and am expert at details on coins other than common moderns? My eye was looking at mint state coins since I was creating highly-detailed art at 12 years old. Now, I know you weren't talking about me specifically, but to assume that people who have problems with some of the inherent risks or corporate marketing of modern condition rare coins have less of an ability to grade within that spectrum is absurd.
That statement is like me saying that most colonial bashers bash colonials because of their inability to assess variety attributions of fugio cents. I would assume that the experts at detail for condition rare moderns have the ability to discern fine differences between shapes, slants, specks, colors, strikes, planchets, marks, scratches, and so forth regardless of the kind of coin. I would never penalize someone for not having a lot of experience studying the particular fine details on the particular coins I own, when they feel the colonial coins I collect are not much better looking that round pieces of dirt anyway, that just don't look nice and minty enough, or aren't easily put into sets that are easy to assemble.
<< <i>The last coin I submitted was a raw 1966 SMS MS68 Dcam JFK. I PM'd a buddy here my grades before submitting, and sent the coin to NGC. It graded MS68 Ucam. >>
Don did indeed do that. And, he was right on the money with his grade estimates.
Russ, NCNE
Actually FoundingFather I do agree. There are many instances in which the grade isn't clearcut, and there is much too large a premium assigned to a single grade point. That said, there are legitimately instances where the difference is measureable and the grade clearcut. I really expect it's the same in your area of specialization, but I take your point, and respect your willingness to share it. It just doesn't seem limited to moderns to me. I mean no ill will. Just differing points of view.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Well said!, although Foundingfather is still looking for that condition census MS68 Fugio. LOL
Brian.
<< <i>Buyer: OK, how about if I buy them, and try to sell them raw without the plastic, you guarantee I will recover, let's say, 65% of my buying cost?
Seller: No thanks. >>
One can say precisely the same thing about classic coins in today's internet driven marketplace. Just look at how many times we see a post such as "if that coin didn't have problems it would be in a slab" when referring to listings for potentially expensive classic coins. Classics invariably sell for far less raw than they would if graded. They are no different than moderns in that respect.
That particular argument has no merit.
Russ, NCNE
i don't think you're referenced coin is a good example for this arguement simply because it is so superior. a better example might be a coin that is solid for the grade----IYHO----but has some room around. something like a common date coin in a grade of MS65 with a highest graded of MS68 where the coin isn't such a dramatic change from the ordinary might be a little tougher to crack than that Kennedy.
al h.
I agree that it's an extreme example, but I think it's perhaps more valid than a 65-66 example because the extreme examples are after all where the big grade premiums exist. For a modern to justify big multiples when it is not rare, it has to be jaw-dropping, and the quality obvious. I guess that's the point I was hoping to make.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
but here's the rub-------It seems illogical to crackout/resubmit coins and at the same time believe a 10x premium for one grade point is justified.
that's the remark that prompted the reply about intellectual honesty. it carries some weight. but, on we go............
not to be critical, but i do recall somewhat the process by which you ended up submitting that DCAM Jefferson to PCGS via NGC via PCGS. i think that had something to do with your tactic of submitting the Kennedy to PCGS via NGC. my feeling is that you thought with both coins there was a better chance of getting the crossover than the crackout and resubmission, unless i'm confused and have it wrong. in your post, you make reference to having no fear cracking one out, sending it to another service, or resubmitting it. in truth, you must have had some reservation since you crossed and didn't crack. remember, i'm not being critical of that choice, just trying to get the facts straight.
al h.
but there's been something bothering me all day. That is the assertion that one of the
problems with moderns is that there are a lot of resubmissions. I didn't see this until
I had to leave and it has come back.
It is a brand new attack against moderns and it is almost certainly untrue. Coins which
get cracked out are coins that can go either way. Coins like a CC dollar thay might go
65 or 67. Coins like a bust half with a slight rub that could go AU-58 or MS-63 would be
prime candidates. For the main part moderns being graded are uncs. They are no question
uncs with no trace of a rub or impairment caused by decades of storage. Or they are proof
and only recently removed from a set. They haven't had long times to acquire hairlining by
being wiped by or rubbed against cloth.
Not only are the odds of getting a higher grade much more poor with moderns but the econ-
omic incentive is generally absent. These coins sell for much lower prices. The few that even
approach the prices of the classics are so rare that if they were really being resubmitted a lot
it would be obvious to market participants.
This is not to say that I have any major problem with people cracking out their coins in an at-
tempt to get higher grades. As long as it's their coins and their submission fees I have no
problem whatsoever. Those who do have a problem with it might want to consider moderns.
I concur. Hopefully you can collect a bit of everything.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Keets, I thought they (PCGS) misgraded the 67 SMS Jeff. If you'll recall, I posted a thread a month before PCGS posted grades saying I thought the coin a MS67 Dcam. PCGS graded it MS67 Cam. I had no fear of cracking the coin, but I'm not a big resubmitter. I just sent it to NGC raw, where it graded MS67 Ucam. Frankly, PCGS would have never seen the coin again had the buyer not crossed it. To me, it was always a MS67 Dcam. I don't think how they are submitted matters much. I submitted the Jeff raw to both services. The JFK was crossed by request.
Edited to add - one last thought re crossovers, at a crossover rate of 25% NGC->PCGS, raw would probably be more effective. JMO.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
You wrote: "I initially got into them largely to make some fast money perhaps"
I don't see how you are not part of my generalization, or how you don't sound like those in my analogies. I stand behind what I said, and I believe there is some generalized truths to it. I believe the truth behind the crackouts, the corporate pop reports and labels, the wave of hype, and the inherent extra risks and vulnerabilities of "condition rarity" is what I was focusing on. Not someone's integrity or right to sell or buy or whatever. >>
I have never claimed to be a saint or an altruist, and frankly aspire to neither. I freely
admit that i'm as human as the next guy with all the frailties and weaknesses that plague
us. The profit motive was not the sole motive even in the beginning. It was a golden op-
portunity to learn about many subjects that I was already interested in. Even before I
started scouring pocket change for coins I was scouring it for the lessons it could teach.
It was in 1972 that the fed and mint adopted FIFO accounting and it became apparent that
with their stocks of coin being rotated continually that the nicer coins would eventually be-
come rare. It was the 80's before I began assembling the coins into a collection and it was
1997 before I started assembling sets strictly from circulation.
It seems improbable that you'll be able to find any human endeavor which doesn't have ele-
ments of all human strenghts and weaknesses.
<< <i>
TOO BIG a part of many condition rare modern coins/sets is "getting a little lucky" or "some crackouts." This is why it is safer to put a lot of money (just talking investment talk here, since so many hypsters talk about the value of these coins increasing) into true rarity -- a fingerprint or pop report change showing up later on won't have the same chance of wiping out so much of the coin's value like it would with a condition rare modern that is mass produced and common. I understand people don't collect what is safer for their money necessarily, or even care about these issues. These issue come up when sellers are pitching how their value is going to soar, while denying the extra vulnerability these modern coins have, as they collect your dollars (same tactic for pitching those high-tech stocks a few years ago).
>>
No question about it. It obviously is far safer putting your money into classics than
into moderns. The only significant danger for classics is that there could be no new
generation of collectors to buy them in a few years when the older collectors retire
and begin selling their collections.
Moderns face myriad dangers in the short and medium term. But they have one thing
going for them that can't simply be dismissed as an aberration; The market for these
coins is exploding. If these markets get even a large fraction of the size of the classic
markets than valuations will have to be adjusted tremendously and it will be generally
upward. Coins that are as rare as some classics in absolute terms or in grade terms now
sell for tiny fractions of the price of the classics. If this market were larger then this would
not be the case.
This is not to say that I would advocate either group of coins as investments. One should
invest in real estate or the stock market or Japanese yen, not in coins. But if one chooses
to put money in coins then the classics are far more secure and the moderns have far more
potential.
<< <i>It seems to me that if you submit a coin (and pay $30) to have it graded and you have to resubmit it 2 more times and it changes a grade higher... What about the coin changed to make it grade higher???????? I AM LOST... LIKE I SAID... A 67 IS A 67 IS A67 ...... >>
You said you were a newbie in the grading game. This statement shows it.
Grading is subjective, not scientific. A 67 can be a 66 one day and a 68 another. It is not an absolute and never will be. Your ability to grade may or may not be relevant to the grading services (talk to an EAC member). There is no bigger false statment than A 67 IS A 67 IS A67 when it comes to the grading services.
This ends the lesson.
And of course near-perfect consistency simply does not exist. There are these pesky complex fluid-filled emotional creatures examining your coin.
I think grading within +/- 1 point accuracy is about the most that can be reasonably expected. Still, compared to the "good old days", that's a pretty big improvement. At least with professional grading you have some attempt at an impartial standard and some semblance of consistency. And a cash-backed grade guarantee for when things go awry.
<< <i>OH yea dbl... I never said i was a newbie to coin grading...... i am a newbie to this chicken manure candy butt supposed to be proffesional coin forum..... I have been grading coins since 1963.. and was taught by a gentleman who new coins not by a magazine i get in the mail every month!!!! >>
Vrtech 99 - I sure hope you are currantly taking music lessons,
as you seem to like tooting your own horn.
Camelot
This sort of thing happens every day. Crack your MS67 state quarter out and resubmit it (only if you feel it is really a MS68). If you leave it in the holder I will almost guarantee that 99.99999% of the time it will come back the same grade.
By the way, the dealer who did the buffalo example above will be grading for PCGS in August (grading again at PCGS, he graded there in the past). If you honestly believe that once a coin is graded, it will always be that grade, then you are crazy. I never said you couldn't grade, but it does sound like you are new to the game that is played every day in the coin world now.
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Maybe it is just that they feel like they have to let everyone know that they are coin saavy.
ok vrtech, we believe you. You know coins.
Good, we need more of you here on the boards.
Either choose to play the slab game or dont. If you choose to play the game, play by the rules if that suits you. If not, keep your coins raw. Like you certainly know, they are the same coin in plastic or not.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
no distracting makes visable to the naked eye is desireable. It always has been, is now and
will be in the future. If the coin should have beautiful natural toning it is even more desirable.
There are many coins where I have paid almost as much or even more for a magnificent lower
graded coin then a technically higher grade that was dull, washed out and lifeless.
When you get into coins in the 1000 dollar or higher range, many collectors seek peace of mind
with a 1st tier grading service to minimize you chances of getting a coin that has been tampered
with. The specific grade is a somewhat subjective placement in a wide range of grades and in fact
could vary by one point or in some unusual cases 2 points. Absolute perfection is is much like the
silver Chalice. Sought after always, but never obtainable.While not perfect, the currant system
seems a more collector friendly system then the old circulated and uncirculated grades.
Camelot
No, it's just human. Nobody on this planet that can assign the exact same "correct" grade every time.
Even assuming unchanging standards, and the same guy grading, and applying an unbiased opinion each time, etc... on a borderline coin it is necessarily a judgement call.
And judgement is affected by innumerable factors which change from moment to moment and day to day. Except maybe in the movies...
<< <i>.......
don't you realize that the line MODERN Bashers TICK ME OFF!!!!!! is akin to inviting ants to a picnic?? i'm anxious to watch this thread run it's 4 page life of stupid arguements.
al h.
WRONG! It 's 8 pages of stupid arguments.
on the state quarter deal, when this thing first hit and folks were going nutto to get some
but couldnt find orig wrapped bu rolls,$100 or $1000 bags and the phone calls were coming
in like 10-15 a day (and still continue today) while all the dealers were getting 25 to 75 to 150%+ over face for these 25c per coin items from these complete IDIOTS buying them off ebay or out of coin world ads for OVER FACE VALUE and PLUS shipping (why in the hell would anyone do that?) one of my best friends who has been in charge of the ordering from the fed reserve locales,n/o, atlanta,dallas,etc, here at the main branch of trustmark fed bank for 20 yrs is the orderer of coins from the fed branches i would help these collectors out by putting them in contact with my boy here local. i could not partake in a premium for gajillions minted common commerce intended use coins. he would simply place a profitable order as they accumilated daily from one of the fed sites that could NOT legally swap for more than FACE value ANY of these coins. it's totally illegal for them to do so. well anyway the fed branches get the coins at a heavy discount from face from the treasury dept, they transport (ship) still at a discount to each major city's fed reserve pull bank and we helped in the last 4 years get many o customer all they wanted at face value mint sealed bags slated for the fed branch distribution into normal commmerce. in the meantime i must have sold 5-600 bags over coinnet to dealers who couldnt figure this simple procedure out (or did not have a connection at a local fed puller) and must have made an extra 200g just on these state quarter bag buyers on coin net paying premiums to fill orders at an even more substantial premiums by the roll,10 roll, bag lots, etc. when all the while all these things are worth is a damn quarter people !!! JHC ! talk about nutcase rationalization ? this state quarter thing is the mostest farce of a farce i have even seen occur and not just for coins, in ANYTHING ! whats up with folks who buy coins made in the billions and billions like change you get at mcdonalds for a big mac the kid whacks on the edge of the register drawer giving you change when all they are is a private company or bank rolled rolls of unc state q's ?? and all you have to do is find a fed puller branch bank and get the vault orderer get you some exact date/mm stuff. insist if you have to or ask for a vp of the bank. you'll get em and as you specify as they can order that way and it's still all at a discount to the banks like the one on your corner. they generally get about 8% off face the fed branches disperse to the avg banks upon their acqusition at about 82-85% of face from the treasury dept.
SAME scenario with the sac dollars, i got as many as i could to fill coin net orders same source before it became such a blatant scam upon the normal joe "coin world orderer" that i left it behind due to concerns of ethics and dispersement of normal coinage only worth FACE VALUE this is NO 50-d 5c bu roll deal here.
ok,ok, an ms69 state quarter is a hard nut to crack. SO? there are jillions still sittin in fed branches. ok, a pr69dcam sac dollar or state quarter ? hell, that's what they were ALL intented to be as the process of minting proof cameos is fine tuned to the max. these coins are worth what they are proportionately worth while still in the proof sets,that's it folks. yeah, they throw out an uhhh "pr70dcam" to promote the idea of sending in coins worth a few bucks so the sellers can get hundreds or thousands for 69 and 70 dcams, thus a whole bunch of submissions for coins worth nothin more than as issued, whether at face or prorate value in a proof set's value. we are going to have a supersonic backlash to this matter in just a few years when all these uhhh "registry sets" of regular stuff (but in a holder that says "xyz") folks have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on slabs that will inevitably actually consist of a couple hundred bucks worth of coins. it's simply stupid investing or hobby purchasing, whichever rationalization these/you folks apply who buys this stuff. why do you think all these dealers slabbing this stuff are scrambling trying to get as many in asap as possible and sell them to the IDIOTS asap the last few years and the next few years to come ?? because they already know there are 10's and 10's of thousands times more of these in a 5-10 year period that will grade the same when sumbitted. it's a guppy deal.
then the bubble burst, hundreds, if not thousands of collectors/investors end up with coins they paid say $500 for that arent worth $20 or less. millions upon millions will be wasted and folks will have learned the hard way anything minted with half billion or near billion figures per each issue have nothing but face value coins (with the exceptions to mules,odd errors,etc) and those with the proof stuff will learn the hard way that "golly gee" when i bought my pr69dcam or ms 68,9 buff dollars,$5 golds,etc,etc,xyz coins with a pop of 25 that's now 2000 pieces slabbed same grades they are going to be ruint finacially in their holdings. many will be ruint in such a negative way it could cause personal financial ruin. i know many folks have a lot of serious money in this stuff and it gets touted by the biggest of bigs to the crafty peon ebayers who buys proof sets and bu examples to do nothing but slab em turning a .25c or $1 coin into a $100 to $500 to $1000+ to sell them to -> stupid <- is that you ? ask yourself truthfully. brings to mind the TV commercial of the dorky geek waddling up to the surf boys waiting on a good wave on a 1950's version of a surf board wearing welding goggles,looking like the babbling idiot that he is. of course the theme of the commercial is a simple message and that is: "you dont want to be this guy". wake up people this is not like a stash back of a bunch of orig bu walker or buff rolls or some knockout pre-40's bu rolls of anything that is actually worth what it's worth. this is madness to the idiotic ultimate degree.
In my case the first quote is not true and the last quote from Supercoin in my opinion speaks volumes. The second quote expresses the sentiment I've heard from some of the best graders in the industry and it's one of the reasons (I've mentioned my other reasons in other post in this thread) paying tremendous one point grade rarity premiums doesn't make sense TO ME.
My opinion regarding this issue (not modern versus classic but paying huge grade rarity premiums versus not) comes down to three things:
1. I don't assign 90 ~ 99% of a coins value based on the minor things that differentiate coins in the loftier grades.
2. I don't think the graders at PCGS or NGC are consistent enough in judging those things that make for a 1 point variation in grade to put multiples of 10x ~ 100x confidence as far as price is concerned in the grade they assign.
3. I'm not very confident that the market values currently being assigned to these coins will hold for the long term.
<< <i>Anytime anyone bashes certain coins or market values, it's an attempt to boost the value (or perceived value) of the coins they currently hold. >>
i've been meaning to solve your 6-shooter/7 men being insulted crisis
when matters come to this point in time, you pick and shoot the first 2 sqaure between the eyes
deader than a doornail. plop, they hit the ground.
then you pick one of the 5 left to tie up and secure the other 4 and shoot square between the
eyes the one who tied up the other 4. now,with the remaining 4 bound and tied. see how bad any of the 4 remaing with your 3 remaining bullets tries anything funny. you then have the situation under full control and determine the next best move. it's simple underdog stategy to concure and overcome odds.
Anyway, thanks for putting up with me guys. I'm a little obnoxious but I like that. I read this forum more than I post, and it's for one reason -- you guys are a wealth of info. Later.
::salute::