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Why does PSA grade Kellogg's cards?
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This is an example of what will happen to ALL Kellogg's cards in the future. PSA should stop grading Kellogg's cards (or at least institute a Kellogg's crack disclaimer so they won't have to buy ALL of them back).
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A crack is equal to a crease in my opinion. And this card has a pretty good one.
I'm sure King Kellog will have something to say regarding this!
<< <i>Kellogg's crack disclaimer so they won't have to buy ALL of them back >>
I'm sure PSA WON'T buy these back, as they were graded correctly at the time of slabbing. The cracking came after the fact. It would be no different if you had a real nice colorful 1963 Topps Bob Gibson PSA-8 (as an example) on display on a shelf in your house. And after a few months w/ the lights on and the sun making its rounds the card will discolor and fade, and soon you'll have the worst looking PSA-8 on the planet - again not PSA's fault as the color was sharp when it was graded.
The problem w/ Kellogg's cards cracking is simple....Take a pile of ungraded Kellogg's cards, and notice they have a curl to them. So to slab them in any holder, not just PSA. The card would have to lay flat in an unfamiliar position for the card, so in many cases cracking will occur. Many collectors and dealers in the know, do not buy or sell in the winter months since the cold wheather seems to speed up the process...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
(The coefficient of thermal expansion is the change in length per unit length of material for a one degree Centigrade change in temperature).
These boards are home to the finest:
Kelloggs Kracked Kard Kollecting Kings!!!
Loves me some shiny!
<< <i>I've handled close to a 1,000 graded 1970 Kellogg's cards and have yet to handle a single cracked graded card. >>
Wait another five years, then go back at take a look at them again. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find lots of cracked plastic surfaces, you might.
Well I guess we were overdue for a Kellogg's Kontroversy.
<< <i>Wait another five years, then go back at take a look at them again. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find lots of cracked plastic surfaces, you might >>
Well let's see, I started having '70 Kellogg's cards graded in early 2000. That's almost three and a half years, and I have quite a few of the originals and still no cracks.
The more I think about this from both an economic and materials standpoint, the more problems I see. Please excuse me while I go dump my PSA graded Kelloggs cards on eBay.
I'm not sure you'd want to - wine should be stored out of the sun, in 55-60 degree (F) conditions, with about 80% humidity. Other than the direct-sunlight thing, cards could suffer if they were stored at too low a temperature or too high a humidity. That said, proper card storage is a very important topic, especially for long-term enjoyment ...
Too bad really, because I'd love to have to visit my wine cellar every time I wanted to look at a Rose card
Robert
<< <i>Well let's see, I started having '70 Kellogg's cards graded in early 2000. That's almost three and a half years, and I have quite a few of the originals and still no cracks. >>
When you go to the racetrack do you usually bet the "50-to-1" long shot? You must, because you're doing the same thing here.
<< <i>I'm not sure you'd want to - wine should be stored out of the sun, in 55-60 degree (F) conditions, with about 80% humidity. Other than the direct-sunlight thing, cards could suffer if they were stored at too low a temperature or too high a humidity. >>
This is a misnomer. The most important attribute of proper wine storage is CONSTANT temperature and humidity. In most cases, the exact temperature or humidity is less important than most wine collectors suspect. The same applies to Kelloggs cards...as long as they're not in rigid holders!
<< <i>thegemmintman, when all of your Kelloggs customers start seeing cracks do you think they'll contact you and ask for their money back? >>
I don't have customers. I'm a buyer/collector and occasionally trade. I rarely if ever sell directly.
<< <i>Do you think it's wise for PSA so continue to put these types of "ticking time bombs" in rigid, plastic holders? >>
I totally disagree with your phrase "ticking time bombs". PSA first puts the Kellogg's cards in a plastic sleeve to minimize movement in the holder and then puts it in the plastic holder. Yes, it's an excellent way to store them. I have seen absolutely no evidence whatsoever of wholesale cracking. I have submitted received back hundreds upon hundreds of cards without problem and have traded frequently with no complaints from either side about cracking.
<< <i>Please excuse me while I go dump my PSA graded Kelloggs cards on eBay. >>
That's your choice. Good luck with your auctions.
<< <i>When you go to the racetrack do you usually bet the "50-to-1" long shot? You must, because you're doing the same thing here >>
No, but I did make a lot of money recently on Empire Maker in the Belmont Stakes. I like to bet on sure things like the Kellogg's cards too.
In the short term (1-2 years), you are correct (provided the constant storage temperature isn't 95 degrees!).
But over any reasonably long storage period, too high of a temperature (above 60F) can cause the wine to age too rapidly. I've tasted way too many older bottles that have that slight "cooked" or "raisin-y" taste to them, purely because of being stored in too warm an environment (no matter how constant). This is especially true of more delicate wines like Burgundy - I once tasted a 1959 Gros Frere (Echezeaux I think?) that looked like light pink water. I thought the wine would be dead, but the smell and taste were astounding, and to this day remains one the greatest wines I have ever tasted. The wine came from negociant who had the wine in proper storage since its release decades prior - I'm sure that had a lot to do with its pristine condition.
Now I'm thirsty ... thread tangent over
Robert
<< <i>But over any reasonably long storage period, too high of a temperature (above 60F) can cause the wine to age too rapidly. >>
Not at all true. According to most books and periodicals on this subject, Bordeauxs, Ports, Cabernets and other, more complex red wines do well even at slightly elevated temperatures. Many "wine.com" type websites extol the necessity of a "golden temperature" for specific wines, but a more intellectual and thoughtful examination of wine aging pretty much debunks this type of frequent web-scattered rhetoric. Granted, a $7.99 bottle of white Zinfandel isn't going to age very well under ANY conditions, but it wasn't made to. Red wines with greater homogeneity and body do best at constant temperatures and constant humidities -- the exact temperature and humidity (within reason) is not going to adversely affect the aging process.
Can it happen? Of course, but to say that ALL will crack is ridiculous. To say that most will crack seems even as ridiculous. As it was noted before, patient preparation before submission probably reduces the extremely small chance of cracking. And it has been noted in the past, there might be some seasonal affects as to when to submit the cards.
There have been nearly 18,000 graded 3-D Kellogg's cards from the regular sets of 1970 - 1976 (73 was not included). How many have cracked? I think Ive seen 3 on these boards.
I just cant go on the premise that just because 3, or even 50, of 18,000 have cracked that all the Kellogg's cards are time bombs.
Please show me one wine storage facility that sets their temperature above 65 degrees (F). There's a reason why they all fall in the 55-65 range (really, 55-60). I agree 100% that there is no "golden temperature" to maniacally adjust to, but your above statement is not accurate. This isn't based on books I've read or websites I've visited - I worked in the wine business for over 8 years, as a seller, buyer, and taster. Most people who think about things like temperature and humidity when looking to cellar their wine are focused on long-term aging. For folks like that, there is a world of difference between cellaring your 2000 Bordeaux for 40 years at a constant 55 degrees versus a constant 75 degrees. That's all I'm saying - that for long-term serious aging, constant temperature is not the only requirement. The actual temperature itself matters ...
Robert
P.S. My K cards haven't cracked yet (how's that for relevance
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
Please send me $100.00.
I will send you back $100,000.00 when ALL the Kellogg's cards are cracked.
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
In my opinion a crack IS as bad as a crease.
But that doesn't stop anyone from sending in a Mantle card with a crease, does it?
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
I will try to address all concerns related to Kellogg's cards, no matter how ridiculous the issue is.
Thanks for the call out!
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
Buying, collecting, and selling cards have always been part of the hobby and certainly part of this board.
You, obviously, saw a change in your hobbying challange, and acted on it. I'm not sure that there is one member of this board that has kept every card obtained. The only thing you can ask yourself in a decade or so, is...Was it the right choice??? And your answer pertains to nobody else.
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
As a collector of K Kards, you have seen your share of "crackers"...
Every collector that enjoys Kellogg's cards, knows the cracking issue. For someone to cry "foul" to PSA on an issue that has been discussed to death, is hard to understand.
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
I agree with "most" of what you say...
I have had a few cards crack from raw cards that were perfectly flat. Cracking, IMO, has no boundries. It looks like to me that the only common denominator in the cracking issue is cold temp. I'll have more data in the upcoming 50 years or so..
I'll keep you posted.
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
A few questions before I get started on your posts.
1) How many PSA graded Kellogg's cards do you actually own at this time?
2) Do you have any formal training on petrochemicals..ie formal education?
3) Your name "kmoran" isn't familar with any of the Kellogg's circles that I know of. Do you have a Kellogg's Klick that I'm unaware of?
4) Have you read any of the last 2 or 3 years of posts related to this "cracking" issue?
5) Is that Rosen on your ID icon?
I need this information to establish what type of Kellogg's collector you are. Please feel free to answer my questions.
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
What can I say but....
John
Is there any "safe" way to dispose of these "ticking time bombs"???????
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
<< <i>Is there any "safe" way to dispose of these "ticking time bombs"??????? >>
FB, it's best to send all 1 of 1 1970 Kellogg's PSA 10 to me. I have access to special nuclear storage facilities in case of a K-radiation leak.
Yep, that was my auction and I was sure that one of the Kellogg's Klub members would bid high to get this 1 of 3(Estimate) Cracked variation.
For more info on the card, here's the history. About a year ago, I bought 12 packs from Dave & Adams on a bit of a lark -- actually was on their website purchasing a 1960 Topps FB Cello pack to bust and grade and noticed 16 1973 Kellogg's Packs priced for $40 each which had just shown up. I gave them a call and they apologized and said they were actually 1970s and that they had already sold four of the packs. They had just received them at a Chicago Show the weekend before from a walk-in and were a bit unfamiliar with the issue. They arrived in the mail, 6 cards to a pack (actually a plastic pouch that had room for the cards to curl and move around a bit). I was planning to start the set from this group, but it turned out that most were identical packs and I only had 18 different cards. It was interesting that in each pack, the cards came in identical runs of three.
There went my plan to have a great start on the set, so I decided to grade them and sell them amidst all the redhot hoopla surrounding K Kards at the time. Also, it seems that I had lucked into a number of the very low pop cards -- 6 Horlens, 3 Carlos Mays, 6 Reichardts, 3 Brooks, etc. They were in great shape and 60 were gradeable and came back mostly 9s, including the then king of the commons Joel Horlen with 5 of him. There were also 2 Carlos May PSA 9s and a Brooks Robinson PSA 10 (the only 10).
With the help of the illustrious leaders of the K Klub on this board most of the high value cards went in private deals and the rest were easy to sell on eBay. I think the Brooks 10 may have set a price record at the time. I had two Horlens left to auction on eBay and after selling the first one, kind of forgot about the last one sitting in a stack. I didn't have it in the wine cellar, but it was on a cool dark shelf in my office for about a year - not much temperature variation and certainly no extreme cold out here in the San Francisco area regardless of the Mark Twain quote..
Imagine my pleasant surprise a couple of weeks ago when I was culling the collection for sales material and out popped the forgotten Horlen
Kevin
I think you are missing my point. I never said that is was ok to let the temperature fluctuate. We agree that constant temperature is desireable for optimal storage (by constant, I mean constrained within a 1-3 degree range). That said, when it comes to long-term aging, my only point is that storing at some constant point between 55 and 65 is better than storing at some other constant point above 65 degree F. The longer you plan on aging the wine, the more this is true.
Robert
P.S. I'm going to assume that you have little direct experience in wine storage.
You mean other than the wine cellar I've had for nearly 10 years? Or the ones I've help customers design? Or the spaceous storage facilities at stores I've worked at? Heck, a friend and former colleague of mine pioneered the climate-controlled wine transportation business years ago. I think I have some credibility discussing this issue ...
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
Love all of that!!!
It's GRRRRRRRRRREAT!!!
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
Stay focused men!!!
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
Yes there is!
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
There is one sure fire way to "properly" dispose of all their "ticking time bombs"....
Bring all the Kellogg's cards that scare you, to the National. Turn them over to a qualified K Klub member, and then run away...Fast...Very Fast..... The official K Klub member will then deposit the Kards into a safe Kellogg's Registry. No more worries about "your whole collection" going down the tube..
(HeeHeeHee......)
Larry
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
The idea of those innocent Kellogg's cards as "ticking time bombs" is the funniest thing I read in the past 6 months on these boards.
My cereal bowl is bigger than your wine cellar.
John B.
<< <i>What in Gods green Earth does wine storage have to do with Kellogg's cracking??? >>
KING - there's always that alcohol konnection with the Kellogg's. Don't ask me why.
HEY SOMEBODY SHUT IT OFF! MY CELLOS ARE IN THERE!!
Let me just add that I, too, have handled literally many 1000's of graded Kellogg's cards and own about 1.000 right now. I have never, let me repeat that, nevernever had one that cracked inside the plastic. I have seen pictures of cracked cards so I do believe it can happen but it happens much less than 1% of the time.
In fact, I think that, 30 years after leaving the Xograph plant, if a now encapsulated Kellogg's card hasn't cracked yet, the chances of it cracking in the future are remote, Like one in 5,000 or so.
If anyone is actually afraid of their graded Kellogg's cards cracking and wants to dump their cards, please dump them to me. I frequently pay full SMR for all 1971 Kellogg's cards.
I have a few hundred extra PSA graded 1971 Kellogg's cards. E-mail for price list. Looking for 1970 Topps Supers in PSA 9 too.
What absolute garbage! It is no secret around here that I have graded one or two K cards over the past few years and NEVER have I had a card crack in the holder.
Does anyone remember, it had to be over a year ago, my "scientific" efforts to crack an encapsulated K card?
From microwaving, to blasting with a CO2 fire extinguisher, all extremes of heat and cold, coupled with rapid temperature differentials, following "scientific" protocols were employed.
The only damage done to a card within the holder was to the ribbed plastic coating which melted to a mirror smooth finish.
This not only proved that the old wives tales regarding cracking were absolute hogwash, but also that I have no life and am a very sick man.
Loves me some shiny!