Why does PSA grade Kellogg's cards?

horizontal

This is an example of what will happen to ALL Kellogg's cards in the future. PSA should stop grading Kellogg's cards (or at least institute a Kellogg's crack disclaimer so they won't have to buy ALL of them back).

interchanges

That's pretty wild. I was an early submitter to PSA (I have lots of cards with looong barcodes on them) and was curious when I got back some 1968 topps 3-d's. I have a Bill Robinson in a six, that should probably be a 4.
A crack is equal to a crease in my opinion. And this card has a pretty good one.

I'm sure King Kellog will have something to say regarding this!

mrc32

Bring on the KING!!!!!!!!!!!!

BobS

Sold both of my partial 1970 sets (BB and FB) a few months ago for this exact reason

dude

Yes, this is a problem, but I wouldn't go as far to say that ALL Kellogg's will crack (at least on our lifetime). I've had one crack on me and it was stored in a "curled" state for many years before I submitted it and it cracked after I received it from PSA. The flattening is probably what did it in. There are many Kellogg's cards that were stored flat and this may not be a problem -- ever. If you are planning on submitting curled cards, you should probably flatten them for several months before sending them in. It wouldn't surprise me if PSA and the other reputable grading companies put a disclaimer on buying back cracked cards.

qualitycards

<< <i>Kellogg's crack disclaimer so they won't have to buy ALL of them back >>


I'm sure PSA WON'T buy these back, as they were graded correctly at the time of slabbing. The cracking came after the fact. It would be no different if you had a real nice colorful 1963 Topps Bob Gibson PSA-8 (as an example) on display on a shelf in your house. And after a few months w/ the lights on and the sun making its rounds the card will discolor and fade, and soon you'll have the worst looking PSA-8 on the planet - again not PSA's fault as the color was sharp when it was graded.
The problem w/ Kellogg's cards cracking is simple....Take a pile of ungraded Kellogg's cards, and notice they have a curl to them. So to slab them in any holder, not just PSA. The card would have to lay flat in an unfamiliar position for the card, so in many cases cracking will occur. Many collectors and dealers in the know, do not buy or sell in the winter months since the cold wheather seems to speed up the process...jay

kmoran

qualitycards, what you say might be true but it is only the incident of putting the cards IN the holders that causes them to crack. So in that respect, PSA is responsible. I have to agree with horizontal on this one.

kmoran

Dude, an excellent point. But please keep in mind that the coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) is quite different for plastic than for paper. This means that if Kelloggs aren't kept in a PERFECT environment, there IS a virtual certainty that they all WILL eventually crack due to internal thermal stress. I don't know if there are any structural or civil engineers here, but there is no question that this type of CTE mismatch can greatly exacerbate the problem of strain compatibility, causing Kelloggs to "curl" or bend. Any type of encapsulation that hinders this process will inevitably lead to cracks in the plastic surface. Now then, how many collectors store their cards like they would a good bottle of Burgundy? Very few, I'll bet.

(The coefficient of thermal expansion is the change in length per unit length of material for a one degree Centigrade change in temperature).

thegemmintman

I've handled close to a 1,000 graded 1970 Kellogg's cards and have yet to handle a single cracked graded card. I believe the risk of cracking in the holder is extremely minimal and a few people out there have made way too much of this. There's probably as much risk of the card cracking in the holder as there is risk from a totally different card getting damaged by flopping around in the holder or PSA damaging a corner while slabbing. Just take care of your cards. Don't expose them to extreme cold or hea or sunlight (good advice for all your cards)

carew4me

These boards are home to the finest:

Kelloggs Kracked Kard Kollecting Kings!!!

kmoran

<< <i>I've handled close to a 1,000 graded 1970 Kellogg's cards and have yet to handle a single cracked graded card. >>


Wait another five years, then go back at take a look at them again. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find lots of cracked plastic surfaces, you might.

thegemmintman

Hey Kut that out Karew.

Well I guess we were overdue for a Kellogg's Kontroversy.

thegemmintman

<< <i>Wait another five years, then go back at take a look at them again. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find lots of cracked plastic surfaces, you might >>



Well let's see, I started having '70 Kellogg's cards graded in early 2000. That's almost three and a half years, and I have quite a few of the originals and still no cracks.

kmoran

thegemmintman, when all of your Kelloggs customers start seeing cracks, do you think they'll contact you and ask for their money back? Maybe they'll attribute the cracking to something they just plain missed when they purchased the cards from you. Do you think it's wise for PSA to continue to put these types of "ticking time bombs" in rigid, plastic holders? It's only a matter of time.....who will foot the bill when cracks start appearing? Could this be the next catastrophe in the world of graded cards?

The more I think about this from both an economic and materials standpoint, the more problems I see. Please excuse me while I go dump my PSA graded Kelloggs cards on eBay.

joker73

Now then, how many collectors store their cards like they would a good bottle of Burgundy?

I'm not sure you'd want to - wine should be stored out of the sun, in 55-60 degree (F) conditions, with about 80% humidity. Other than the direct-sunlight thing, cards could suffer if they were stored at too low a temperature or too high a humidity. That said, proper card storage is a very important topic, especially for long-term enjoyment ...

Too bad really, because I'd love to have to visit my wine cellar every time I wanted to look at a Rose card .

Robert

kmoran

<< <i>Well let's see, I started having '70 Kellogg's cards graded in early 2000. That's almost three and a half years, and I have quite a few of the originals and still no cracks. >>


When you go to the racetrack do you usually bet the "50-to-1" long shot? You must, because you're doing the same thing here.

kmoran

<< <i>I'm not sure you'd want to - wine should be stored out of the sun, in 55-60 degree (F) conditions, with about 80% humidity. Other than the direct-sunlight thing, cards could suffer if they were stored at too low a temperature or too high a humidity. >>


This is a misnomer. The most important attribute of proper wine storage is CONSTANT temperature and humidity. In most cases, the exact temperature or humidity is less important than most wine collectors suspect. The same applies to Kelloggs cards...as long as they're not in rigid holders!

thegemmintman

<< <i>thegemmintman, when all of your Kelloggs customers start seeing cracks do you think they'll contact you and ask for their money back? >>



I don't have customers. I'm a buyer/collector and occasionally trade. I rarely if ever sell directly.





<< <i>Do you think it's wise for PSA so continue to put these types of "ticking time bombs" in rigid, plastic holders? >>



I totally disagree with your phrase "ticking time bombs". PSA first puts the Kellogg's cards in a plastic sleeve to minimize movement in the holder and then puts it in the plastic holder. Yes, it's an excellent way to store them. I have seen absolutely no evidence whatsoever of wholesale cracking. I have submitted received back hundreds upon hundreds of cards without problem and have traded frequently with no complaints from either side about cracking.



<< <i>Please excuse me while I go dump my PSA graded Kelloggs cards on eBay. >>



That's your choice. Good luck with your auctions.

thegemmintman

<< <i>When you go to the racetrack do you usually bet the "50-to-1" long shot? You must, because you're doing the same thing here >>



No, but I did make a lot of money recently on Empire Maker in the Belmont Stakes. I like to bet on sure things like the Kellogg's cards too.

joker73

This is a misnomer. The most important attribute of proper wine storage is CONSTANT temperature and humidity. In most cases, the exact temperature or humidity is less important than most wine collectors suspect.

In the short term (1-2 years), you are correct (provided the constant storage temperature isn't 95 degrees!).

But over any reasonably long storage period, too high of a temperature (above 60F) can cause the wine to age too rapidly. I've tasted way too many older bottles that have that slight "cooked" or "raisin-y" taste to them, purely because of being stored in too warm an environment (no matter how constant). This is especially true of more delicate wines like Burgundy - I once tasted a 1959 Gros Frere (Echezeaux I think?) that looked like light pink water. I thought the wine would be dead, but the smell and taste were astounding, and to this day remains one the greatest wines I have ever tasted. The wine came from negociant who had the wine in proper storage since its release decades prior - I'm sure that had a lot to do with its pristine condition.

Now I'm thirsty ... thread tangent over

Robert

Cubfan

Where is Luxury Wines when we need him?

kmoran

<< <i>But over any reasonably long storage period, too high of a temperature (above 60F) can cause the wine to age too rapidly. >>


Not at all true. According to most books and periodicals on this subject, Bordeauxs, Ports, Cabernets and other, more complex red wines do well even at slightly elevated temperatures. Many "wine.com" type websites extol the necessity of a "golden temperature" for specific wines, but a more intellectual and thoughtful examination of wine aging pretty much debunks this type of frequent web-scattered rhetoric. Granted, a $7.99 bottle of white Zinfandel isn't going to age very well under ANY conditions, but it wasn't made to. Red wines with greater homogeneity and body do best at constant temperatures and constant humidities -- the exact temperature and humidity (within reason) is not going to adversely affect the aging process.

Cubfan

To get back on the topic, I dont understand the hysteria concerning the cracked cards.

Can it happen? Of course, but to say that ALL will crack is ridiculous. To say that most will crack seems even as ridiculous. As it was noted before, patient preparation before submission probably reduces the extremely small chance of cracking. And it has been noted in the past, there might be some seasonal affects as to when to submit the cards.

There have been nearly 18,000 graded 3-D Kellogg's cards from the regular sets of 1970 - 1976 (73 was not included). How many have cracked? I think Ive seen 3 on these boards.

I just cant go on the premise that just because 3, or even 50, of 18,000 have cracked that all the Kellogg's cards are time bombs.

joker73

... the exact temperature and humidity (within reason) is not going to adversely affect the aging process.

Please show me one wine storage facility that sets their temperature above 65 degrees (F). There's a reason why they all fall in the 55-65 range (really, 55-60). I agree 100% that there is no "golden temperature" to maniacally adjust to, but your above statement is not accurate. This isn't based on books I've read or websites I've visited - I worked in the wine business for over 8 years, as a seller, buyer, and taster. Most people who think about things like temperature and humidity when looking to cellar their wine are focused on long-term aging. For folks like that, there is a world of difference between cellaring your 2000 Bordeaux for 40 years at a constant 55 degrees versus a constant 75 degrees. That's all I'm saying - that for long-term serious aging, constant temperature is not the only requirement. The actual temperature itself matters ...

Robert

P.S. My K cards haven't cracked yet (how's that for relevance ) ...

KING KELLOGG

Gee...Where do I start?????





Larry

KING KELLOGG

horizontal.......

Please send me $100.00.


I will send you back $100,000.00 when ALL the Kellogg's cards are cracked.






Larry

KING KELLOGG

interchanges...

In my opinion a crack IS as bad as a crease.

But that doesn't stop anyone from sending in a Mantle card with a crease, does it?





Larry

KING KELLOGG

mrc32...


I will try to address all concerns related to Kellogg's cards, no matter how ridiculous the issue is.

Thanks for the call out!




Larry

KING KELLOGG

BobS...

Buying, collecting, and selling cards have always been part of the hobby and certainly part of this board.

You, obviously, saw a change in your hobbying challange, and acted on it. I'm not sure that there is one member of this board that has kept every card obtained. The only thing you can ask yourself in a decade or so, is...Was it the right choice??? And your answer pertains to nobody else.




Larry

KING KELLOGG

dude...

As a collector of K Kards, you have seen your share of "crackers"...


Every collector that enjoys Kellogg's cards, knows the cracking issue. For someone to cry "foul" to PSA on an issue that has been discussed to death, is hard to understand.



Larry

KING KELLOGG

qualitycards...

I agree with "most" of what you say...

I have had a few cards crack from raw cards that were perfectly flat. Cracking, IMO, has no boundries. It looks like to me that the only common denominator in the cracking issue is cold temp. I'll have more data in the upcoming 50 years or so..

I'll keep you posted.





Larry

kmoran

Joker, As a buyer, seller and taster, I'm going to assume that you have little direct experience in wine storage. If you had, you would realize that all of the "golden temperatures" assigned to different types of reds are simply arbitrary. Also, you seem to waver between 60 and 65 degrees F as some type of magical cut-off point for wine storage. My guess is that you simply don't know. Again, I repeat -- the most important consideration in wine storage is maintaining a CONSTANT temperature and humidity. For you to suggest that one would even think about storing wine long-term at above typical storage temperatures really begs the question. There would be little argument from environmental experts that long-term storage at 65 F would be better than long term storage at a variable temperature between 55 and 60 F.

KING KELLOGG

kmoran....

A few questions before I get started on your posts.

1) How many PSA graded Kellogg's cards do you actually own at this time?

2) Do you have any formal training on petrochemicals..ie formal education?

3) Your name "kmoran" isn't familar with any of the Kellogg's circles that I know of. Do you have a Kellogg's Klick that I'm unaware of?

4) Have you read any of the last 2 or 3 years of posts related to this "cracking" issue?

5) Is that Rosen on your ID icon?


I need this information to establish what type of Kellogg's collector you are. Please feel free to answer my questions.




Larry

Basilone

What can I say but....



John

FB

All I want to know is....

Is there any "safe" way to dispose of these "ticking time bombs"???????

thegemmintman

<< <i>Is there any "safe" way to dispose of these "ticking time bombs"??????? >>



FB, it's best to send all 1 of 1 1970 Kellogg's PSA 10 to me. I have access to special nuclear storage facilities in case of a K-radiation leak.

Stonegate

Hey, where was all this publicity before the auction closed?!

Yep, that was my auction and I was sure that one of the Kellogg's Klub members would bid high to get this 1 of 3(Estimate) Cracked variation.

For more info on the card, here's the history. About a year ago, I bought 12 packs from Dave & Adams on a bit of a lark -- actually was on their website purchasing a 1960 Topps FB Cello pack to bust and grade and noticed 16 1973 Kellogg's Packs priced for $40 each which had just shown up. I gave them a call and they apologized and said they were actually 1970s and that they had already sold four of the packs. They had just received them at a Chicago Show the weekend before from a walk-in and were a bit unfamiliar with the issue. They arrived in the mail, 6 cards to a pack (actually a plastic pouch that had room for the cards to curl and move around a bit). I was planning to start the set from this group, but it turned out that most were identical packs and I only had 18 different cards. It was interesting that in each pack, the cards came in identical runs of three.

There went my plan to have a great start on the set, so I decided to grade them and sell them amidst all the redhot hoopla surrounding K Kards at the time. Also, it seems that I had lucked into a number of the very low pop cards -- 6 Horlens, 3 Carlos Mays, 6 Reichardts, 3 Brooks, etc. They were in great shape and 60 were gradeable and came back mostly 9s, including the then king of the commons Joel Horlen with 5 of him. There were also 2 Carlos May PSA 9s and a Brooks Robinson PSA 10 (the only 10).

With the help of the illustrious leaders of the K Klub on this board most of the high value cards went in private deals and the rest were easy to sell on eBay. I think the Brooks 10 may have set a price record at the time. I had two Horlens left to auction on eBay and after selling the first one, kind of forgot about the last one sitting in a stack. I didn't have it in the wine cellar, but it was on a cool dark shelf in my office for about a year - not much temperature variation and certainly no extreme cold out here in the San Francisco area regardless of the Mark Twain quote..

Imagine my pleasant surprise a couple of weeks ago when I was culling the collection for sales material and out popped the forgotten Horlen, then the dismay when I noticed the cracks! I'm certainly not an expert as it is the only K Kard that I've ever had in my possession for longer than two months and I have no idea whether many of these will crack over time or not, but now you know the rest of the story!

Kevin

joker73

There would be little argument from environmental experts that long-term storage at 65 F would be better than long term storage at a variable temperature between 55 and 60 F.

I think you are missing my point. I never said that is was ok to let the temperature fluctuate. We agree that constant temperature is desireable for optimal storage (by constant, I mean constrained within a 1-3 degree range). That said, when it comes to long-term aging, my only point is that storing at some constant point between 55 and 65 is better than storing at some other constant point above 65 degree F. The longer you plan on aging the wine, the more this is true.

Robert

P.S. I'm going to assume that you have little direct experience in wine storage.

You mean other than the wine cellar I've had for nearly 10 years? Or the ones I've help customers design? Or the spaceous storage facilities at stores I've worked at? Heck, a friend and former colleague of mine pioneered the climate-controlled wine transportation business years ago. I think I have some credibility discussing this issue ...

qualitycards

...All this talk is getting me rather thirsty ...jay

Cubfan

All this wine and Kellogg's talk. I always wondered if there was more than just Kool-Aid in the Koolaid Rockers pitcher.

KING KELLOGG

Basilone...


Love all of that!!!


It's GRRRRRRRRRREAT!!!



Larry

KING KELLOGG

What in Gods green Earth does wine storage have to do with Kellogg's cracking???



Stay focused men!!!




Larry

KING KELLOGG

Cubsfan...

Yes there is!



Larry

KING KELLOGG

thegemmintman...


There is one sure fire way to "properly" dispose of all their "ticking time bombs"....


Bring all the Kellogg's cards that scare you, to the National. Turn them over to a qualified K Klub member, and then run away...Fast...Very Fast..... The official K Klub member will then deposit the Kards into a safe Kellogg's Registry. No more worries about "your whole collection" going down the tube..




(HeeHeeHee......)



Larry

Machodoc

As a certified K klub member I will unselfishly volunteer to receive all ticking K Kard time bombs for deposit into my registry sets (that's the only way I can catch up with Larry). I look forward to seeing you there!

Basilone

The idea of those innocent Kellogg's cards as "ticking time bombs" is the funniest thing I read in the past 6 months on these boards.

My cereal bowl is bigger than your wine cellar.

John B.

thegemmintman

<< <i>What in Gods green Earth does wine storage have to do with Kellogg's cracking??? >>



KING - there's always that alcohol konnection with the Kellogg's. Don't ask me why.

thegemmintman

HEY SOMEBODY SHUT IT OFF! MY CELLOS ARE IN THERE!!

Galveston

Interesting posts. There aren't many topics I feel I know less about than wine, or topics I feel like I know more about than Kellogg's cards.

Let me just add that I, too, have handled literally many 1000's of graded Kellogg's cards and own about 1.000 right now. I have never, let me repeat that, nevernever had one that cracked inside the plastic. I have seen pictures of cracked cards so I do believe it can happen but it happens much less than 1% of the time.

In fact, I think that, 30 years after leaving the Xograph plant, if a now encapsulated Kellogg's card hasn't cracked yet, the chances of it cracking in the future are remote, Like one in 5,000 or so.

If anyone is actually afraid of their graded Kellogg's cards cracking and wants to dump their cards, please dump them to me. I frequently pay full SMR for all 1971 Kellogg's cards.

zardoz51

I would have responded sooner, but I have been extremely busy gathering wood and stakes in order to deal with these heretics. We haven't had a good burning at the stake of a heretic in a long time around here.

What absolute garbage! It is no secret around here that I have graded one or two K cards over the past few years and NEVER have I had a card crack in the holder.

Does anyone remember, it had to be over a year ago, my "scientific" efforts to crack an encapsulated K card?

From microwaving, to blasting with a CO2 fire extinguisher, all extremes of heat and cold, coupled with rapid temperature differentials, following "scientific" protocols were employed.

The only damage done to a card within the holder was to the ribbed plastic coating which melted to a mirror smooth finish.

This not only proved that the old wives tales regarding cracking were absolute hogwash, but also that I have no life and am a very sick man.

carew4me