What should be done, if anything??

keets · July 5, 2003 11:22PM

It would appear from the poll on this thread that many aren't familiar with the two Types of reverse on the 1956 Proof Franklin. I feel rather confident that the subject coin is easily identified as a Type 2, so here's the dilemma.

Should a seller be able to identify varieties or type variations that he sells and be held responsible for his representation when he sells a coin? Many buyers will assume a holdered coin, especially a PCGS coin, to be correctly identified and that opinion is often reinforced by trust in a reputable dealer. But..........sometimes mistakes are made by the graders. In this instance, they have apparently assigned the wrong Type to the coin and the seller, whether he was the submitter or not, has a $150 coin which will probably be sold for 10 times that or more to an uninformed and trusting buyer.

To be certain, caveat emptor!! That isn't always acceptable to me, though. I feel that on these various forums we need to hold ourselves to a bit higher accountability, especially when we offer for sale an item which we know or should know is incorrectly attributed. I had wanted to contact the member involved via PM but he doesn't have that function enabled so i responded on the thread with my concern and sent an e-mail. No response as yet.

Bear in mind that I could be wrong about the coin, and if I am I'll offer a forum apology to the other member. With that said, I've intentionally withheld any mention of names or links because history seems to show that only to invite bias. How do you feel I should pursue this?

Thanks.

Al H.

coinguy1 · July 5, 2003 11:53PM

I have been told by David Hall, that in the case of an authorized PCGS dealer, under the terms of the PCGS dealer agreement, the dealer, whether he be a submitter or purchaser, has a responsibility to return a mislabeled coin to PCGS to have the label corrected. The preceding was not a direct quote, but I think and hope I have relayed David's point accurately.

I don't know if this applies to non-dealers, too, or not.

My personal opinion is that, regardless of whom the coin is being offered to, ANY owner of a certified coin should represent it accurately with respect to the date, mintmark, variety, etc, even if the grading company mislabeled it.

jeffnpcb · July 5, 2003 11:55PM

I've got several '56s in PCGS slabs and none are designated as either type. Should I resubmit for review and regrade, or just hold out and try to tell the difference if I decide to sell?

DragonAzz · July 6, 2003 12:03AM

Well Al,

You certainly seem to be hooked on the horns on an enema and you are faced with a couple of choices:

1) Eat the coin and chalk it up as "Lesson learned." You know you won't be able to sell it and live with the fact you knowingly cheated somebody. Perhaps crack it out and carry it as a pocket piece as a reminder. Maybe have it correctly indentified, resell it and eat the loss.

2) Out the member that sold it to you as a lying, thieving rat-bastage and let the board crucify him. That sword has a double edge and you may end up cutting off your own head. You still eat the coin.

3) Try to hammer PCGS to honor their guarrantee. I think they will have two words for you: "Clerical Error." You still eat the coin.

4) Continue along the current path and hope the member makes things right. Don't expose their name. Take the high road showing poise and dignity along the way. Hold your own behaviour to the high standards you spoke of and it is quite likely the other member will do the right thing.

I speak from first hand experience on this matter and when it happened to me I just wanted to tear stuff up. It was NOT a purchase through a forum member but at that time it sucked to be me. Considering all the facts you have given I think I would stick with #4 for a while and hope for the best. The seller might get with you and do the honorable thing.

Another thing to consider: The seller may have not been the submitter nor aware of the difference between types. He MAY have sold you the coin in good faith for what he bought it. In that case, you both got burned. You might want to consider a compromise in this situation. You will both recoup some of your money and who knows: you might make a lifelong friend in the process. Perhaps you could offer the seller your phone number so that the situation could be discussed in a more personable manner. E-mail can sometimes unintentionally convey the wrong tone. Good luck.

keets · July 6, 2003 12:08AM

hey jeff

i assume the coins you have are in old rattlers, green holders or the blue holders without bar code. they started to add the designation sometime between July of 1998 and January of 2002. i realize that's a big window, but i haven't been able to locate hard copy pop reports between those dates to help fill in the changes they've made in designations and other related insert data.

anyway, the coins are easy enough to distinguish and if yours are Type 2 there isn't any need to have that added. you could ask for a designation review for a Type 1 but there isn't really any need, as i said, because it's easily identified. the point here is that the coin is a Type 2 with an insert that reads Type 1, kind of like the recent thread by Russ with his mislabeled Accent Hair Kennedys.

al h.

BigD5 · July 6, 2003 12:09AM

If you are a "dealer", you are responsible for how you represent a coin. If you are a "collector", you are allowed much more leeway as far as responsibility to how you represent a coin.
I think we all would HOPE that mislabeled coins would be returned, by whomever the owner is, and correctly attributed/identified/labeled by the appropriate grading service. Not always the case though.

*I think I just said what Coinguy1 said

joejeweler · July 6, 2003 12:15AM

DragonAzz......i don't believe Keets bought said coin in question, only that it is available for sale and "might" sell to someone not aware of the type differences and the large dollar difference involved.

Interesting thread.........but i don't like that PCGS "might" just chauk it up to clerical error, however, if presented to them later. In this instance it's not an obvious clerical error to a lot of collectors. I'd leave that "out" to a mislabled date or mintmark.......something everyone could readily see and understand on the coin.

Personally......i believe the major grading services should be accountable with their dollars even in cases of clerical error. These coins were supposed to be able to trade sight unseen, remember? I know it doesn't happen today, but if they had to eat a few the mistakes in labeling would sure slow down!

Sorta like "measure twice and cut once" in building something,........in this case you have a proof checker that everything is correct before a coin is shipped. He/she just might bethe highest paid worker there, as they would need a pretty good base of knowledge from which to judge some coins labeling.

LucyBop · July 6, 2003 12:21AM

If you are refering to the first picture that pops up on the thread you linked, that coin is without a shade of a doubt a type 2.

coinguy1 · July 6, 2003 12:22AM

<< If you are a "dealer", you are responsible for how you represent a coin. If you are a "collector", you are allowed much more leeway as far as responsibility to how you represent a coin... >>

<< *I think I just said what Coinguy1 said >>

BigD5, actually, you didn't say the same thing I did.

While I don't think a non-dealer would have the same obligation to have a mislabeled coin corrected by the grading company, as I said before:

<< My personal opinion is that, regardless of whom the coin is being offered to, ANY owner of a certified coin should represent it accurately with respect to the date, mintmark, variety, etc, even if the grading company mislabeled it. >>

I would not go along with allowing a "collector" more leeway, regarding his responsibility in representing (or misrepresenting) a mislabeled coin.

LucyBop · July 6, 2003 12:26AM

If this 'dealer' is purposely selling this coin knowing full well of the designation not being correct, he should be outed and avoided. Period! However, the dealer may not be aware of what the differences are him/her self........ your emails not being answered could simply be because of the holiday....

keets · July 6, 2003 12:35AM

........and i shall continue to tread lightly!!

al h.

Russ · July 6, 2003 12:37AM

<< Should a seller be able to identify varieties or type variations that he sells and be held responsible for his representation when he sells a coin? >>

Yes.

However, if a dealer doesn't know what he has and sells a valuable coin cheap coin and gets cherry-picked, then we should let him slide on his mistake.

Russ, NCNE

dldallen · July 6, 2003 12:42AM

I've had several PCGS "clerical" or "mechanical" errors and on the two big dollar items (big for me anyway), PCGS took care of me. One item was from a scumbag eBayer who has since dried up and gone away. I provided the eBay bill and PCGS reimbursed me completely and for the other coin that I bought from a reputable dealer.

I think if you approach it in a mature, respectable manner, you'll get a lot farther and be able to work out a win-win solution. That includes working with the seller in this case. I sell a lot of extra coins I slab or upgrade and if you told me that one was a clerical error, it would be off the market and on its way to PCGS for correction. Period. If the seller didn't want to work with you, I would let PCGS know of the error since they have been known to purchase these even from auction to get them corrected.

IMO, a collector has as much responsibility to accurately represent a coin as a dealer. Just as the collector wouldn't want to leave a mess for his or her heirs, I don't think they would want to knowingly pass on the mess to fellow collectors. They are by and large, friends and colleagues that buy, sell, and trade with the collector to help each other. Screw one knowingly or unknowingly, and you just lost part of your support mechanism. Again, just my opinion and how I would handle it. Good subject! Dave

joejeweler · July 6, 2003 12:43AM

Russ.....in that case he didn't hurt anyone but himself.......except maybe the person he bought it from?

Just don't rub salt into the wound and let the dealer know!

('cause next time you buy from that dealer he'll be scrutinizing everything you look at!)

<< 

<< Should a seller be able to identify varieties or type variations that he sells and be held responsible for his representation when he sells a coin? >>

Yes.

However, if a dealer doesn't know what he has and sells a valuable coin cheap coin and gets cherry-picked, then we should let him slide on his mistake.

Russ, NCNE >>

FatMan · July 6, 2003 1:00AM

<< 3) Try to hammer PCGS to honor their guarrantee. I think they will have two words for you: "Clerical Error." >>

Is this true that PCGS will not guarantee the type on the label? This is awful. I buy PCGS slabs because I thought that the coin was guaranteed for what it is. I thought that is what "guaranteed grade and authenticity" was (taken directly from the PCGS Customer Bill of Rights). PCGS has the concept of Sight-Unseen trading posted all over their website. How can coins trade sight-unseen if PCGS does not guarantee the label?

Someone please clarify this for me. What could possible be more important than correct identification of the coin in the slab. So is PCGS saying that to buy their product I have to have coin expertise? If so, then why does PCGS exist? This can have much greater value impact to the buyer of a coin than the coin being severly misgraded.

Typetone · July 6, 2003 1:06AM

Keets:

If you haven't bought the coin, but just see it advertised, an email to the seller is probably all you can do at first. If nothing happens then why not link to the sight in a post and just ask a question, "Does everyone think this is a type one".

If you bought it, just return it with a brief one sentence explanation. Even if you don't have a return priviledge a seller should take it back for that reason. If he won't take it back, you are screwed, and need to take whatever action screwed people take. At that point you might want to reveal more details.

Greg

kranky · July 6, 2003 3:10AM

To me, "clerical error" only applies when the mistake is as obvious as an 1877 dime in a slab labeled 1877 Indian Head Cent. If there's a variety or type attribution on the label, then they need to stand behind that 100%. Clerical error doesn't apply in that case.

If those mistakes are categorized as clerical errors, then every mistake (including grade) is a clerical error.

keets · July 6, 2003 3:49AM

hey greg

the first thread, which i linked to at the beginning of this one, has a picture of the coin included with the poll. i attempted to accomplish what you've suggested while still maintaining the sellers anonymity. he's still not replied to my e-mail or removed the coin from the thread where it's listed. after Monday night i'll consider posting the link more straightforwardly to his thread. after, of course, another e-mail and the extra day of grace!!

al h.

drainbamage · July 7, 2003 6:17AM

Well I side with the buyer.... even if it was in an old holder I do think PCGS would re-holder it and give it the type free of charge. Or at least they should. Common sense knows that company makes good money off us.

DCAMFranklin · July 7, 2003 6:35AM

Is the coin for sale on Ebay? On the BS&T Boards? Why the need for the "cloak & dagger secret"?

Russ · July 7, 2003 6:37AM

<< Why the need for the "cloak & dagger secret"? >>

Interesting question coming from you, DCAMFranklin.

Russ, NCNE

ElectricEye · July 7, 2003 6:41AM

I made a "clerical" error on my last submission and did not list the coin as a D mint mark but rather incorrectly listed it as P ~ PCGS did not catch this mistake on my part and it is now misholdered. Should I send it in at my expense? Will they charge me to reholder it correctly? Do I pay return shipping? Should I not send it in as they already have way too many coins backlogged?

keets · July 7, 2003 11:59AM

hey DCAM

no cloak and dagger here, just an attempt at resolving a problem in a civil manner with a tactful approach.

as it now stands, i've sent the seller two e-mails. he replied Sunday evening that he had been on vacation and would send me his asking price for the coin and my requested additional reverse scan on Monday. he did not, however, address my query about the coin's Type 1 attribution. the picture is still up listing the coin for sale and i'm still waiting for his reply.

al h.

What should be done, if anything??

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