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I Didn't Used to Think This, But Now I'm Not so Sure..
dragon
Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
I always used to think that all coins got an equal shake at PCGS, and it made absolutely no difference who the submittor was, be it a big shot dealer with close ties to PCGS, or famous collector, or just Joe Nobody submitting coins from his collection. After seeing several coins I had previously sold upgrade by 2 full grade points at PCGS and now worth thousands more, now I really don't know.
Let me point out a few examples, and there is no mistaking these were the exact same coins I sold:
1) I sold a really pretty toned 1882-CC PCGS MS65 at a major show to a rather well known collector/dealer a year or so ago. It was such a nice piece for a 65, I tried re-submitting it once only for an upgrade, and it came back MS65 again. Just recently, I saw that exact coin for sale by the dealer/collector I sold it to, only this time in a PCGS MS67 holder, and priced over 10X what I sold it for.
2) I sold another cool toned 1885-O in PCGS MS64 to another well known dealer about 8-10 months ago, and I just also recently saw the same coin for sale by another dealer now in a PCGS MS66 holder and listed as PQ+ for the grade, and again now priced at nearly 10X what I sold it for........hmmmm.
3) About 2 yrs. ago, I traded a really cool 1880-S PCGS MS66 semi PL coin to the same person as coin #1 in a mail transaction, and then saw the same coin in a PCGS MS67PL holder about a month later now listed as a just miss MS68 and PQ+, and again priced at multiples of what I traded it for.
I have also seen for sale several PCGS DMPL dollars that I had sold in the past now in PCGS holders bumped 1 grade higher and priced over double or triple what I sold them for, and I have exellent recall of the coins I've owned so there is no mistaking they were the exact same pieces.
Maybe the luck of the draw, maybe I'm not buddies with the right people, or maybe I just don't play the crack and resubmit game nearly as much as I should with my coins, but I don't like it. I now don't think I ever want to sell another nice coin again, or maybe I should start handing out Cuban cigars to the 'right' people.
dragon
Let me point out a few examples, and there is no mistaking these were the exact same coins I sold:
1) I sold a really pretty toned 1882-CC PCGS MS65 at a major show to a rather well known collector/dealer a year or so ago. It was such a nice piece for a 65, I tried re-submitting it once only for an upgrade, and it came back MS65 again. Just recently, I saw that exact coin for sale by the dealer/collector I sold it to, only this time in a PCGS MS67 holder, and priced over 10X what I sold it for.
2) I sold another cool toned 1885-O in PCGS MS64 to another well known dealer about 8-10 months ago, and I just also recently saw the same coin for sale by another dealer now in a PCGS MS66 holder and listed as PQ+ for the grade, and again now priced at nearly 10X what I sold it for........hmmmm.
3) About 2 yrs. ago, I traded a really cool 1880-S PCGS MS66 semi PL coin to the same person as coin #1 in a mail transaction, and then saw the same coin in a PCGS MS67PL holder about a month later now listed as a just miss MS68 and PQ+, and again priced at multiples of what I traded it for.
I have also seen for sale several PCGS DMPL dollars that I had sold in the past now in PCGS holders bumped 1 grade higher and priced over double or triple what I sold them for, and I have exellent recall of the coins I've owned so there is no mistaking they were the exact same pieces.
Maybe the luck of the draw, maybe I'm not buddies with the right people, or maybe I just don't play the crack and resubmit game nearly as much as I should with my coins, but I don't like it. I now don't think I ever want to sell another nice coin again, or maybe I should start handing out Cuban cigars to the 'right' people.
dragon
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I used to feel the same way as you, but will bet that some if not all the coins you mentioned were upgraded via the crackout route.
While it's always risky to crack out a coin, any of the major grading services are more likely to upgrade a crackout pq coin as a new submission then review a coin for a grading mistake and acknowledge the error. Les
Do you believe PCGS was rewarding the Dealer or punishing you?
peacockcoins
to you, I would take the PQ coins and stick them deep in the vault.
Camelot
When you sold the coins, did YOU think that they were undergraded?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Next time when you crack out, send the coin in with a $20 bill tuck in the other side of the flip, like someone recently said.
At least that proves they were nice coins, about 1/4 of DMPLs I ever submitted changed into PL & jumped a grade, kept the DMPL but lost a grade, and one that really had me scratching my head, the one that went from DMPL to a regular MS coin.
DMPLs are the craziest coins in the world to fool with.
Yes, I thought that 82-CC (example #1) was a 66 or very close, but not even remotely a 67, as far as all the others, I'd like to think I have quite a few really nice pieces for the grade, but not 2 points undergraded.
dragon
PS: good advice Bear
Not that the grade is really that relevant on such a coin.
Michael
dragon
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The big O
If you sell a 65 coin to a big shot for 65 money and (not that I believe this happens) he lobbies PCGS to intentionally overgrade it, how did you make anyone wealthier? PCGS made the big shot wealthier, and the big shot (presumably, somehow, some day) will make PCGS wealthier.
You lost nothing unless you sold an undergraded coin, in which case it's probably your own fault for not knowing what you had.
Now, quit complaining and (like HRH says) "enjoy your coins"!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Geb209 - I don't get it. Why haven't you sold them yet?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Oh, I get it. You're holding on to your coins because you hold on to your coins. Simple cause and effect.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The system might need to be brought back in line, or closer to that line with some type of change.
Especially with the grading services swamped with coin submittals while trying to bring in new graders, its starting sound like a circus. Standarization is the key and the fulcrum for that is time. Why cant the companies put a date graded on each slab? Then over time we could apply our own index so a PQ 64 from this period can stand well represented closely with a 65 from this period. Private companies can create new policy that benefit the hobby simultanoeusly to making a profit. But the 2 points issue is worrisome and I hope you are perhaps trying to slip a plug in for yourself. 2 points and the ms value changes in that range is big money and big money naturally drawls flies which policy change can shooo away
It's more about timing than who you are.
The other problem with PCGS and NGC is wild variability at times.
Plus or minus ONE grading point is a spread I see all the time.
I've submitted numerous coins that graded from 63 to 65 on multiple submissions.
Lastly, I've had the same experiences with coins that I gave up on too early ending up in crackout dealer's cases with higher numbers.
It's happened too many times for me to count. Bottom line, you have been around long enough that if YOU FEEL the coin is high end or even the next grade......believe it. You will be right. That coin will upgrade eventually. Might be a coin worthy of consigning to auction where the crack-addicts can fight over it.
roadrunner
mostly coins that are high end for their grade.
In any case this wouldn't seem to be such a problem unless the upgrades
were going disproportionately to one or two individuals.
geb209 - Sorry, it just frustrates me when people don't make the effort to improve their situation. To me, it's clear that you would be better off selling the coins you hate and using the money to buy better coins.
if you're interested in buying my coins at greysheet prices, let's strike a deal
geb209 - Based on your description of the coins, they're probably worth more like bluesheet prices, but I'd be glad to help you unload the coins at market. PM me with the details if you like.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Tyler
Dan
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
Dealers are far more capable of getting upgrades, not because they "know somebody" but because they know how to submit. Experience has taught dealers you sometimes have to have whats known as "set up" coins in a submission to make others work. I doubt many collecotrs keep and inventory around just to make that happen. Also, at shows the big question is" whos the grading team" (at either PCGS or NGC)? Once that is known, the dealers know whether or not to even submit. Also, if they are at a show and hear other people did well (sometimes a certain finalizing team will view a certain type of coin a little more commercially), you bet coins are sent in within a few minutes notice! Timing is everything!
I know this is going to sound evil but Dragon, you must admit, you do mention on these boards when your coins don't work (and others get them to work). I've never seen you come on here and thank PCGS for upgrades!!! All I know is if you are going to play the upgrading game, you have to live with how things turn out. And even for the big players, they loose far more than they win sometimes.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Timing is everything. If one sends in a mish-mash of high and low end coins, from brilliant to deeply toned, from real toning to AT,
from real coins to altered ones, from pretty to ugly, I think you can expect similar grading results. Graders are human and they are affected by hundreds of internal and external factors each and every day. The variety of grades from one submission to the next for the identical coins proves that. Certainly the order the coins are placed,
the type of coin, PQness, etc. all play a role. Somedays the effect is negligible and no matter what you have done with your submission you do not succeed. But other days it's very significant.
It's still easier and probably far more advantageous to 99% of all buyers, to purchase nice coins in the proper holders. Far more money is lost by the "typical" collector panning for upgrades than what he gains in a few scores. Constantly "churning" one's holdings looking for the elusive score/upgrade is one of the biggest drains of one's wallet. Buy keepers the first time.....and keep them.
roadrunner
Laura, I also would like to thank you for the candid response. It is interesting to know that the grading services can be played like that.
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Okay, I have one hand free now. First of all, geb209, I really like your thoughts and style. You are right on track. Dragon, I am sorry for what you had to witness. I too have witnessed similar scenarios. I could tell you horor stories, but I am not here to sling mud at PCGS. I have often said that PCGS is my favorite grading service, but still the lesser of 6 evils.
If you think that certain dealers (or high profile collectors) can't purchase grades then you are naive and foolish. They may not purchase grades with actual cash money, but you had better believe that certain names influence certain grades. If you want to ban me from the forum for stating this opinion that I hold as fact, then so be it. I was really disgusted when I read Dragon's thread and I really did refrain from commenting.
This is why I absolutely loathe printed comments like "pop top" and "finest known". The whole population report is so skewed that it's laughable. How many "pop top" coins use to be lowly MS-65 coins?
islemangu, I really like the track you are headed on with standarization. To your comment regarding putting the date graded right on the slab, how about printing ALL previous grades on the slab? Of course, this would only work on coins submitted in a current PCGS holder, but wouldn't it be beneficial to the consumer to know that his newly purchased, sight unseen, MS-67 Morgan Dollar was an MS-65 just 5 months ago? Will this ever happen? He11 NO!
Andy, I don't know what you are smokin' tonight, but your comments are totally screwball. You know and I know the truth: the grading services is nothing but fregin' organized crime and you CAN ALL KISS MY A$$. I am out of here!
<< <i> Why cant the companies put a date graded on each slab? Then over time we could apply our own index so a PQ 64 from this period can stand well represented closely with a 65 from this period. >>
This is exactly what they don't want according to the answer I got from David Hall.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=147941
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I keep submitting and the grades sometimes puzzel me, but I'm one of those retail dealers that Mr. hall says can't grade worth sh*t.
I know an other dealer that told me to give him the same coin and he would get me the grade I though it was.
His money was better than mine and I got the grade. We had a good laugh over dinner. He proved his point to me.
Just remember this business is business nothing personnel about it just business. Money talks, doesn't it????
I don't know whether any dealers get "special treatment." I will tell you that what some people do is keep resubmitting high end coins until they get their upgrade(s). For some dealers, if they submit 50 coins & 1 of them upgrades, they've made thousands of dollars. I think this is more of what we are seeing.
Most collectors don't want to have to send a coin in five or six times (maybe more) to get the 'proper' grade. Greg Marguilies spent quite some time on this subject before he went 'adios.'
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Most of the grading companies including PCGS practice market grading. But what is the definition of market grading ? It depends on who you ask I guess. But one of the generally perceived answers is that market grading is based on what the market will accept as an accurate grade at a given time. And as another poster already commented - what the market finds popular, such as toning, at a given time also has a bearing on the grade. Add to that the oldest definition that the grade of coin is also partially determined by its value.
Now you mentioned that the elapsed time period between your sales and when you again saw the coins was from approx 1 to 2 yrs. In the time that elapsed - a lot changed. Prices for coins went up - toning became even more popular - and it was stated even here on these boards during that time frame that PCGS had tightened their standards then loosened their standards and then tightened them again. And one of the most common complaints about PCGS heard anywhere is that they are inconsistent.
But is it not market grading that is inconsistent ? For if how a coin is graded changes based upon what the market will accept or not accept at a given time - the it stands to reason that as the market changes - so will the grades.
I would think that re-submitting a coin a getting back a higher grade will have more to do with the current state of the market and its perceptions about coins as they change over time than it does re-submitting them a dozen times and who it is that is submitting them. perhaps if you had just waited the same amount of time and then re-submitted the coins yourself - you would be the one getting the higher grade.
Of course if you do re-submit a coin 12 or 20 times - how long does that take ? Even at 30 days apiece - that would be 1 to 2 yrs.
<< <i>
Most of the grading companies including PCGS practice market grading. But what is the definition of market grading ? It depends on who you ask I guess. But one of the generally perceived answers is that market grading is based on what the market will accept as an accurate grade at a given time. And as another poster already commented - what the market finds popular, such as toning, at a given time also has a bearing on the grade. Add to that the oldest definition that the grade of coin is also partially determined by its value.
Now you mentioned that the elapsed time period between your sales and when you again saw the coins was from approx 1 to 2 yrs. In the time that elapsed - a lot changed. Prices for coins went up - toning became even more popular - and it was stated even here on these boards during that time frame that PCGS had tightened their standards then loosened their standards and then tightened them again. And one of the most common complaints about PCGS heard anywhere is that they are inconsistent.
But is it not market grading that is inconsistent ? For if how a coin is graded changes based upon what the market will accept or not accept at a given time - the it stands to reason that as the market changes - so will the grades.
I would think that re-submitting a coin a getting back a higher grade will have more to do with the current state of the market and its perceptions about coins as they change over time than it does re-submitting them a dozen times and who it is that is submitting them. perhaps if you had just waited the same amount of time and then re-submitted the coins yourself - you would be the one getting the higher grade.
Of course if you do re-submit a coin 12 or 20 times - how long does that take ? Even at 30 days apiece - that would be 1 to 2 yrs. >>
Excellent points. So long as coins are market graded then increased
grades can be more indicative of a hot market than anything else.
To clarify, not that much time elapsed from the time I sold the coins to the time I again saw them in upgraded holders.
To begin with, the term 'market grading' is a grossly overused and misunderstood term IMO and the major services do NOT market grade to the extent that is thought. However, no matter how much the market changes and standards and trends change over time, there is no way a dollar should ever go from a 65 to a 67 at the same service under any circumstances IMO. There is absolutely no way in hell I could ever grade a dollar an MS65, and then later call the same coin an MS67, nor do I think any other proficient or experienced grader could either,,,,,,so what does that leave other than graders at the same service with vastly different grading standards, or blatant favoritism and certain influential people 'lobbying' for the grades they want and getting them.
There is a saying in Chicago that goes "if you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes and it will change" I think there should also be a saying in the certified coin business that goes " if you don't like the grade on the holder, wait awhile and it will change".
dragon
I just happen to be of the opinion that the changing grades over a period of time are more likely due to changing grading standards than they are to preferential treatment. As for the amount of time - a year is more than enough in todays market. A look at any of the pricing indexes - or many of the individual prices - clearly indicates just how much the market has changed. And apparently - the grades with it.
Northcoin - I can understand why SOME buyers might like this, but why would this be good PUBLIC POLICY? In other words, why should everyone's tax dollars (not just coin collectors) be spent on regulating a trivial hobby or, for that matter, any industry not vital to the national interest? And for that matter, if you really want to get into it, where in the Constitution is the Federal Government given the authority to regulate the coin business? (And don't give me that line about "interstate commerce"! That's in there to prevent trade wars between states. More on that subject here. Do NOT get me started on this! Oops, too late.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.