I Didn't Used to Think This, But Now I'm Not so Sure..

dragon · June 12, 2003 6:15AM

I always used to think that all coins got an equal shake at PCGS, and it made absolutely no difference who the submittor was, be it a big shot dealer with close ties to PCGS, or famous collector, or just Joe Nobody submitting coins from his collection. After seeing several coins I had previously sold upgrade by 2 full grade points at PCGS and now worth thousands more, now I really don't know.

Let me point out a few examples, and there is no mistaking these were the exact same coins I sold:

1) I sold a really pretty toned 1882-CC PCGS MS65 at a major show to a rather well known collector/dealer a year or so ago. It was such a nice piece for a 65, I tried re-submitting it once only for an upgrade, and it came back MS65 again. Just recently, I saw that exact coin for sale by the dealer/collector I sold it to, only this time in a PCGS MS67 holder, and priced over 10X what I sold it for.

2) I sold another cool toned 1885-O in PCGS MS64 to another well known dealer about 8-10 months ago, and I just also recently saw the same coin for sale by another dealer now in a PCGS MS66 holder and listed as PQ+ for the grade, and again now priced at nearly 10X what I sold it for........hmmmm.

3) About 2 yrs. ago, I traded a really cool 1880-S PCGS MS66 semi PL coin to the same person as coin #1 in a mail transaction, and then saw the same coin in a PCGS MS67PL holder about a month later now listed as a just miss MS68 and PQ+, and again priced at multiples of what I traded it for.

I have also seen for sale several PCGS DMPL dollars that I had sold in the past now in PCGS holders bumped 1 grade higher and priced over double or triple what I sold them for, and I have exellent recall of the coins I've owned so there is no mistaking they were the exact same pieces.

Maybe the luck of the draw, maybe I'm not buddies with the right people, or maybe I just don't play the crack and resubmit game nearly as much as I should with my coins, but I don't like it. I now don't think I ever want to sell another nice coin again, or maybe I should start handing out Cuban cigars to the 'right' people.

dragon

barberlover · June 12, 2003 6:18AM

Dragon,

I used to feel the same way as you, but will bet that some if not all the coins you mentioned were upgraded via the crackout route.

While it's always risky to crack out a coin, any of the major grading services are more likely to upgrade a crackout pq coin as a new submission then review a coin for a grading mistake and acknowledge the error. Les

braddick · June 12, 2003 6:19AM

Interesting and undeniable.
Do you believe PCGS was rewarding the Dealer or punishing you?

Bear · June 12, 2003 6:20AM

Dragon, Stop selling your coins.If this happened to me as many times as it has happened

to you, I would take the PQ coins and stick them deep in the vault.

MrEureka · June 12, 2003 6:24AM

Dragon -

When you sold the coins, did YOU think that they were undergraded?

ER · June 12, 2003 6:26AM

It sucks, doesn't it?
Next time when you crack out, send the coin in with a $20 bill tuck in the other side of the flip, like someone recently said.

Dog97 · June 12, 2003 6:42AM

Dragon you didn't say if it was raw or in the slab when you sent it back in. I think that makes a difference. And you said you only tried it once, the other dealer might have submitted it 20 times to get that 10X increase in price.
At least that proves they were nice coins, about 1/4 of DMPLs I ever submitted changed into PL & jumped a grade, kept the DMPL but lost a grade, and one that really had me scratching my head, the one that went from DMPL to a regular MS coin.
DMPLs are the craziest coins in the world to fool with.

dragon · June 12, 2003 6:43AM

MrEureka,

Yes, I thought that 82-CC (example #1) was a 66 or very close, but not even remotely a 67, as far as all the others, I'd like to think I have quite a few really nice pieces for the grade, but not 2 points undergraded.

dragon

PS: good advice Bear

lordmarcovan · June 12, 2003 6:48AM

The one that made me start wondering was this one gettin', what was it, a 65? How many times did Liberty run through the briar patch or stumble and fall, to make her leg look like that?

Not that the grade is really that relevant on such a coin.

FrattLaw · June 12, 2003 6:48AM

Ah, the smell of coffee.

Michael

dragon · June 12, 2003 6:56AM

In any case, I now firmly believe that some big shot dealers and otherwise other high profile influential individuals can 'lobby' PCGS and get the grades they think they deserve in some instances. I am just sick and tired of making already wealthy people wealthier at my expense.

dragon

poptopsRus · June 12, 2003 7:08AM

I have dealt with some large dealers in my time and I know they will submit a coin over and over again (raw of couse) until they get the grade they want. You know the graders recognize the coin, but they will get the grade they want out of it eventually. Maybe the graders get sick of seeing the same coin, or maybe they feel they have paid enough in slabbing fees to get it upgraded, or maybe they just catch them on a bad day (who knows).

MrEureka · June 12, 2003 7:11AM

I am just sick and tired of making already wealthy people wealthier at my expense.

If you sell a 65 coin to a big shot for 65 money and (not that I believe this happens) he lobbies PCGS to intentionally overgrade it, how did you make anyone wealthier? PCGS made the big shot wealthier, and the big shot (presumably, somehow, some day) will make PCGS wealthier.

You lost nothing unless you sold an undergraded coin, in which case it's probably your own fault for not knowing what you had.

Now, quit complaining and (like HRH says) "enjoy your coins"!

geb209 · June 12, 2003 7:18AM

I feel the same way but from the opposite side of the coin (no pun intended). I use to be the guy who purchased the coins you described at the 10x markup. I have only recently become very critical of each and every coin that I purchase and will now return any trash. I return over half the coins that I purchase. I guess there are enough suckers out there for dealers to make a living. That said, I have tons of coins in my collection from those innocent years that simply shouldn't have made the grade. I have atleast 3 MS66 that are outrageous (deep scratches, way too many field hits, etc). I spoke with PCGS about them and they said they coins were graded correctly. Thought about suing under the guarantee but I decided otherwise because the guarantee is nothing more than a guarantee that it is PCGS opinion that the coin is graded XX. Welcome to reality.

MrEureka · June 12, 2003 7:20AM

That said, I have tons of coins in my collection from those innocent years that simply shouldn't have made the grade. I have atleast 3 MS66 that are outrageous (deep scratches, way too many field hits, etc).

Geb209 - I don't get it. Why haven't you sold them yet?

geb209 · June 12, 2003 7:22AM

Funny thing is, I can't find a sucker. No, kidding aside, I hold on to them because I don't sell my coins. I'm just an accumulator.

MrEureka · June 12, 2003 7:28AM

No, kidding aside, I hold on to them because I don't sell my coins.

Oh, I get it. You're holding on to your coins because you hold on to your coins. Simple cause and effect.

islemangu · June 12, 2003 8:15AM

Dragon,
The system might need to be brought back in line, or closer to that line with some type of change.
Especially with the grading services swamped with coin submittals while trying to bring in new graders, its starting sound like a circus. Standarization is the key and the fulcrum for that is time. Why cant the companies put a date graded on each slab? Then over time we could apply our own index so a PQ 64 from this period can stand well represented closely with a 65 from this period. Private companies can create new policy that benefit the hobby simultanoeusly to making a profit. But the 2 points issue is worrisome and I hope you are perhaps trying to slip a plug in for yourself. 2 points and the ms value changes in that range is big money and big money naturally drawls flies which policy change can shooo away

geb209 · June 12, 2003 8:36AM

MrEureka, why are you so interested in my collecting habits? I don't sell because I don't sell, period. I have never sold a coin and probably never will. That's the type of collector that I am. But hey, if your interested in buying my coins at greysheet prices, let's strike a deal.

joeyuk · June 12, 2003 8:39AM

Anyone who owns PCGS slabbed coins is effected by this because tough grading standards and reputation is what gave PCGS slabbed coins a premium over other slabs. That was a long sentence.

IrishMike · June 12, 2003 8:55AM

This may sound simple enough, but you have to learn what grade PCGS will grade it, not what you think based on your knowledge and experience of grading suggests to you. Your standards might remain the same but theirs change. I took 3 coins to FUN to have graded by PCGS and three by NGC. I guessed correctly on all six grades. I disagreed on three of them, all the PCGS grades, but I knew what they would grade them at. They were being tough, simple as that and I knew that ahead of time. I have no doubt that all three will be resubmitted some day and be in the correct holder.

It's more about timing than who you are.

roadrunner · June 12, 2003 9:06AM

Dragon, I believe that there is a bias in grading at the services based on who submitted it. I have one personal experience where I had split with a dealer on a coin and it was sent in raw for upgrade. When it didn't make it, the dealer solicted the grading service and got the grade changed. So if it happens for this relatively smaller dealer I can only wonder what happens with bigger dealers when pressure is applied.

The other problem with PCGS and NGC is wild variability at times.
Plus or minus ONE grading point is a spread I see all the time.
I've submitted numerous coins that graded from 63 to 65 on multiple submissions.

Lastly, I've had the same experiences with coins that I gave up on too early ending up in crackout dealer's cases with higher numbers.
It's happened too many times for me to count. Bottom line, you have been around long enough that if YOU FEEL the coin is high end or even the next grade......believe it. You will be right. That coin will upgrade eventually. Might be a coin worthy of consigning to auction where the crack-addicts can fight over it.

roadrunner

cladking · June 12, 2003 9:13AM

Dragon; Perhaps your grading is getting so good that you actually buy
mostly coins that are high end for their grade.

In any case this wouldn't seem to be such a problem unless the upgrades
were going disproportionately to one or two individuals.

MrEureka · June 12, 2003 9:32AM

why are you so interested in my collecting habits? I don't sell because I don't sell, period.

geb209 - Sorry, it just frustrates me when people don't make the effort to improve their situation. To me, it's clear that you would be better off selling the coins you hate and using the money to buy better coins.

if you're interested in buying my coins at greysheet prices, let's strike a deal

geb209 - Based on your description of the coins, they're probably worth more like bluesheet prices, but I'd be glad to help you unload the coins at market. PM me with the details if you like.

ARCO · June 12, 2003 9:56AM

Buy the coins not the holder. I bust a gut laughing when I hear that! The holder is king!

Tyler

meos1 · June 12, 2003 9:56AM

I don't buy slabbed coins... I bought one coin got a great deal on it and then when it arrived I found several gouges and tick marks on it that would lower the grade substantially in my eyes. I don't buy slabbed coins now. I buy coins; they might be in slabs but I always rely on my grading capabilities and do not lend credo to the grade just because. I think PCGS is a wonderful company and has a great niche for the accumulator who lacks the skills to put together a series of coins who are easily forged, easily misgraded. But all in all, collectors have relied on thier skills in the knowledge of thier series of choice to assign grades to coins. The pocket book assigns the valuation!

Dan

Legend · June 12, 2003 10:13AM

Here is a tip on something that DOES happen:

Dealers are far more capable of getting upgrades, not because they "know somebody" but because they know how to submit. Experience has taught dealers you sometimes have to have whats known as "set up" coins in a submission to make others work. I doubt many collecotrs keep and inventory around just to make that happen. Also, at shows the big question is" whos the grading team" (at either PCGS or NGC)? Once that is known, the dealers know whether or not to even submit. Also, if they are at a show and hear other people did well (sometimes a certain finalizing team will view a certain type of coin a little more commercially), you bet coins are sent in within a few minutes notice! Timing is everything!

I know this is going to sound evil but Dragon, you must admit, you do mention on these boards when your coins don't work (and others get them to work). I've never seen you come on here and thank PCGS for upgrades!!! All I know is if you are going to play the upgrading game, you have to live with how things turn out. And even for the big players, they loose far more than they win sometimes.

oreville · June 12, 2003 10:50AM

dragon: Agreed with the grade you assigned to the coin.

roadrunner · June 12, 2003 11:07AM

Laura, thanks for that candid response. I think it's the first time I've seen a major player not quote the standard PCGS/NGC party line that everyone has an equal chance. I won't hold my breath waiting for a major player at PCGS/NGC to say the same thing some day. They will of course say that the coin gets the same grade everytime. Sure.

Timing is everything. If one sends in a mish-mash of high and low end coins, from brilliant to deeply toned, from real toning to AT,
from real coins to altered ones, from pretty to ugly, I think you can expect similar grading results. Graders are human and they are affected by hundreds of internal and external factors each and every day. The variety of grades from one submission to the next for the identical coins proves that. Certainly the order the coins are placed,
the type of coin, PQness, etc. all play a role. Somedays the effect is negligible and no matter what you have done with your submission you do not succeed. But other days it's very significant.

It's still easier and probably far more advantageous to 99% of all buyers, to purchase nice coins in the proper holders. Far more money is lost by the "typical" collector panning for upgrades than what he gains in a few scores. Constantly "churning" one's holdings looking for the elusive score/upgrade is one of the biggest drains of one's wallet. Buy keepers the first time.....and keep them.

roadrunner

edsondl · June 12, 2003 11:27AM

I am surprised that no one has said that PCGS has changed how it views toned coins over the past few years based on the increased "eye appeal" of these coins and the higher prices that they bring. Many posters have felt that the one point bump for nice toning is not correct on the part of PCGS. So, maybe for Draogn there was one point bump for nice toning and one point upgrade for PQ-ness and standard variation in grading. Does anyone still seriously support this change over the past few years in toning points?

stujoe · June 12, 2003 11:39AM

Dragon, just be thankful you aren't the collector who buys them next.

Laura, I also would like to thank you for the candid response. It is interesting to know that the grading services can be played like that.

copperhead · June 12, 2003 11:54AM

This thread just helps further confirm my beliefs all along. Its all about M.O.N.E.Y.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I buy slabbed coins. I just don't submit them

NumisEd · June 12, 2003 11:56AM

I read this threeead a few hours ago, but I knew that if I resppponded without takinggg my medicatiooon that I would get into sssserious troubllle. I could not find my mmmedication and I am back at the key bbbboard. One hour aaagggo, I haddd my wife duct tape my handddds to the sideee of my head so that I couuud not type. As I write this, I am typpping with my chin. Pretttty good tyyping, huhh??

Okay, I have one hand free now. First of all, geb209, I really like your thoughts and style. You are right on track. Dragon, I am sorry for what you had to witness. I too have witnessed similar scenarios. I could tell you horor stories, but I am not here to sling mud at PCGS. I have often said that PCGS is my favorite grading service, but still the lesser of 6 evils.

If you think that certain dealers (or high profile collectors) can't purchase grades then you are naive and foolish. They may not purchase grades with actual cash money, but you had better believe that certain names influence certain grades. If you want to ban me from the forum for stating this opinion that I hold as fact, then so be it. I was really disgusted when I read Dragon's thread and I really did refrain from commenting.

This is why I absolutely loathe printed comments like "pop top" and "finest known". The whole population report is so skewed that it's laughable. How many "pop top" coins use to be lowly MS-65 coins?

islemangu, I really like the track you are headed on with standarization. To your comment regarding putting the date graded right on the slab, how about printing ALL previous grades on the slab? Of course, this would only work on coins submitted in a current PCGS holder, but wouldn't it be beneficial to the consumer to know that his newly purchased, sight unseen, MS-67 Morgan Dollar was an MS-65 just 5 months ago? Will this ever happen? He11 NO!

Andy, I don't know what you are smokin' tonight, but your comments are totally screwball. You know and I know the truth: the grading services is nothing but fregin' organized crime and you CAN ALL KISS MY A$$. I am out of here!

route66 · June 12, 2003 12:10PM

A very interesting response by Laura. I learn a lot on this board. Some very knowledgable people, both collectors and dealers. IMHO. steve

stujoe · June 12, 2003 12:17PM

<< <i> Why cant the companies put a date graded on each slab? Then over time we could apply our own index so a PQ 64 from this period can stand well represented closely with a 65 from this period. >>

This is exactly what they don't want according to the answer I got from David Hall.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=147941

PTVETTER · June 12, 2003 12:35PM

I also think that there is something going on at PCGS, however I don't really know.
I keep submitting and the grades sometimes puzzel me, but I'm one of those retail dealers that Mr. hall says can't grade worth sh*t.

I know an other dealer that told me to give him the same coin and he would get me the grade I though it was.

His money was better than mine and I got the grade. We had a good laugh over dinner. He proved his point to me.

Just remember this business is business nothing personnel about it just business. Money talks, doesn't it????

Elcontador · June 12, 2003 12:43PM

Dragon,

I don't know whether any dealers get "special treatment." I will tell you that what some people do is keep resubmitting high end coins until they get their upgrade(s). For some dealers, if they submit 50 coins & 1 of them upgrades, they've made thousands of dollars. I think this is more of what we are seeing.

Most collectors don't want to have to send a coin in five or six times (maybe more) to get the 'proper' grade. Greg Marguilies spent quite some time on this subject before he went 'adios.'

GDJMSP · June 12, 2003 12:50PM

Dragon - a question if I may.

Most of the grading companies including PCGS practice market grading. But what is the definition of market grading ? It depends on who you ask I guess. But one of the generally perceived answers is that market grading is based on what the market will accept as an accurate grade at a given time. And as another poster already commented - what the market finds popular, such as toning, at a given time also has a bearing on the grade. Add to that the oldest definition that the grade of coin is also partially determined by its value.

Now you mentioned that the elapsed time period between your sales and when you again saw the coins was from approx 1 to 2 yrs. In the time that elapsed - a lot changed. Prices for coins went up - toning became even more popular - and it was stated even here on these boards during that time frame that PCGS had tightened their standards then loosened their standards and then tightened them again. And one of the most common complaints about PCGS heard anywhere is that they are inconsistent.

But is it not market grading that is inconsistent ? For if how a coin is graded changes based upon what the market will accept or not accept at a given time - the it stands to reason that as the market changes - so will the grades.

I would think that re-submitting a coin a getting back a higher grade will have more to do with the current state of the market and its perceptions about coins as they change over time than it does re-submitting them a dozen times and who it is that is submitting them. perhaps if you had just waited the same amount of time and then re-submitted the coins yourself - you would be the one getting the higher grade.

Of course if you do re-submit a coin 12 or 20 times - how long does that take ? Even at 30 days apiece - that would be 1 to 2 yrs.

cladking · June 12, 2003 2:10PM

<< <i>

Most of the grading companies including PCGS practice market grading. But what is the definition of market grading ? It depends on who you ask I guess. But one of the generally perceived answers is that market grading is based on what the market will accept as an accurate grade at a given time. And as another poster already commented - what the market finds popular, such as toning, at a given time also has a bearing on the grade. Add to that the oldest definition that the grade of coin is also partially determined by its value.

Now you mentioned that the elapsed time period between your sales and when you again saw the coins was from approx 1 to 2 yrs. In the time that elapsed - a lot changed. Prices for coins went up - toning became even more popular - and it was stated even here on these boards during that time frame that PCGS had tightened their standards then loosened their standards and then tightened them again. And one of the most common complaints about PCGS heard anywhere is that they are inconsistent.

But is it not market grading that is inconsistent ? For if how a coin is graded changes based upon what the market will accept or not accept at a given time - the it stands to reason that as the market changes - so will the grades.

I would think that re-submitting a coin a getting back a higher grade will have more to do with the current state of the market and its perceptions about coins as they change over time than it does re-submitting them a dozen times and who it is that is submitting them. perhaps if you had just waited the same amount of time and then re-submitted the coins yourself - you would be the one getting the higher grade.

Of course if you do re-submit a coin 12 or 20 times - how long does that take ? Even at 30 days apiece - that would be 1 to 2 yrs. >>

Excellent points. So long as coins are market graded then increased
grades can be more indicative of a hot market than anything else.

dragon · June 12, 2003 2:43PM

GDJMSP,

To clarify, not that much time elapsed from the time I sold the coins to the time I again saw them in upgraded holders.

To begin with, the term 'market grading' is a grossly overused and misunderstood term IMO and the major services do NOT market grade to the extent that is thought. However, no matter how much the market changes and standards and trends change over time, there is no way a dollar should ever go from a 65 to a 67 at the same service under any circumstances IMO. There is absolutely no way in hell I could ever grade a dollar an MS65, and then later call the same coin an MS67, nor do I think any other proficient or experienced grader could either,,,,,,so what does that leave other than graders at the same service with vastly different grading standards, or blatant favoritism and certain influential people 'lobbying' for the grades they want and getting them.

There is a saying in Chicago that goes "if you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes and it will change" I think there should also be a saying in the certified coin business that goes " if you don't like the grade on the holder, wait awhile and it will change".

dragon

GDJMSP · June 13, 2003 12:33PM

I agree with you completely Dragon - it should not happen. But it does. And the major grading services do practice market grading - they freely admit it themselves.

I just happen to be of the opinion that the changing grades over a period of time are more likely due to changing grading standards than they are to preferential treatment. As for the amount of time - a year is more than enough in todays market. A look at any of the pricing indexes - or many of the individual prices - clearly indicates just how much the market has changed. And apparently - the grades with it.

northcoin · June 13, 2003 6:17PM

Shouldn't the major dealers (Heritage, Bowers and Merena, etc.) be required to provide full disclosure like real estate agents are required to do when they sell a house? It is against the law for a seller and his agent to fail to disclose as to material facts with regard to real property even if it is only worth $5,000.00 On a $20,000 coin that is being represented as a top pop shouldn't a major dealer be required to disclose the prior pop and grading history of this coin as known to them? They should be required to state in their listings and in the auction catalogues that "this coin came to us in an NGC holder graded MS65 and we submitted it to PCGS who upped it to MS67." Anything less is a failure to disclose material facts. Maybe someday the law will catch up - or if it doesn't buyers will just continue to lose faith in grading services and those who make huge profits based on their grading whims.

Sumo · June 13, 2003 7:02PM

Sounds good Northcoin, but no way to prove it. That would have to be on an honor system. From what I've seen even as a newbie..........Honor isn't in every dealers vocabulary.

MrEureka · June 13, 2003 11:50PM

Shouldn't the major dealers...be required to provide full disclosure?

Northcoin - I can understand why SOME buyers might like this, but why would this be good PUBLIC POLICY? In other words, why should everyone's tax dollars (not just coin collectors) be spent on regulating a trivial hobby or, for that matter, any industry not vital to the national interest? And for that matter, if you really want to get into it, where in the Constitution is the Federal Government given the authority to regulate the coin business? (And don't give me that line about "interstate commerce"! That's in there to prevent trade wars between states. More on that subject here. Do NOT get me started on this! Oops, too late.)

I Didn't Used to Think This, But Now I'm Not so Sure..

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