how does a morgan go MS 68 with die polish lines???

tsacch · May 31, 2003 1:24PM

I am continuously learning from this board..........but can someone explain other than market grading......how a morgan dollar gets an ms 68 with strong die polish lines like this monster..........

i love the coin, but i though that the die lines would down grade it a point or so.,,like an incomplete strike

please advice.

tomMS 68 MORGAN??? PLEASE SPLAIN TO ME

airplanenut · May 31, 2003 1:26PM

Die Polish lines aren't damage- if they are excessive, they would only knock a coin down for appeal... of course, that thing could be bumped more than a point for the color...

Dog97 · May 31, 2003 1:30PM

Read in the PCGS grading book that a MS-70 can have die polish lines. If the struck coin looks JUST EXACTLY like the die there's your MS-70.

fivecents · May 31, 2003 1:36PM

Die polish lines are raised up from the fields of the coin not indented like tics or hairlines.

The grade remians the same.

Paul

tsacch · May 31, 2003 1:38PM

I understand what die polish lines are.........thanks for the input.....

What i am getting at is i see most coins that are ms68 with clean fields...... you take away the rainbow and its a 65 or 66

jbsteven · May 31, 2003 2:28PM

I am the owner of said coin above and can assure you that this is no ms65 or ms66 if the rainbow is taken away. If you come to Mid America in Chicago and I still have it I would be happy to show you it and you can judge for yourself in person of the grade. I have seen much worse 68's.

FatMan · May 31, 2003 2:30PM

Wow!

There is nothing else to say.

wingedliberty · May 31, 2003 2:41PM

Next time you see an early copper with a cud (die break) or an adjustment mark on early silver, realize that it was done either prior to the strike to the planchet blank or during the minting process.

Brian.

numonebuyer · May 31, 2003 3:59PM

The Obverse of the Morgan in question looks like MS68 from the picture provided. I see no marks anywhere on that obverse (there could be a few there, but I really can't see any in the picture provided). I see a perfect strike (just awesome). The luster looks to have no breaks and the coin is absolutely beautiful (wonderful eye appeal). The Reverse of the Morgan is a bonus. It is rare that a Reverse will bring up the grade of the Morgan, but in this case it certainly didn't hurt the grade.

Coins of this quality will look even better in person because you will really get to appreciate that luster cartwheel.

Great coin.

Numonebuyer

ANACONDA · May 31, 2003 4:16PM

I looked at all the photos of the Morgan in the offering. While there is one photo that shows die polishing lines on the reverse (the
largest image which is also repeated as one of the smaller images, it is my suspicion that the lines are over emphasized in that photo
because of the angle of the light in relation to the lines.

When the light hits the coin directly from the side of the lines, the light hits the raised portion of the lines and the lines then reflect a
maximum amount of light - like sails that catch a full wind.

I think that the other photos are probably better representations of how the coin would look in hand; the lines would usually not be
very noticeable.

Incidentally, die polishing lines on Morgans are pretty common, maybe even the norm especially on the reverse. While they are not desirable,
they are one of the least offensive detractions.

Finally, I have seen one commone date Morgan in PCGS MS 68 with obverse color that was almost as good as the reverse on the subject coin.

I offered $10,000 for that coin and would have paid another 5K for it if the buyer would have indicated that he was open to selling the
coin, so i don't think 12K is an insane price for the coin that is the subject of this thread.

adrian

ANACONDA · May 31, 2003 4:18PM

One last thing....while images only tell a portion of "the story", the images of the subject coin suggest to me that the coin deserves the 68 that it got.

jbsteven · May 31, 2003 4:20PM

Adrian is correct as the lines cannot be seen with the naked eye.

thanks adrian

braddick · May 31, 2003 4:29PM

I had the opportunity of viewing this Monster at the PCGS Luncheon on Thursday. It is MS68+ in or out of a holder and would go MS68 each and everytime it would be submitted. The cheek is flawless and the fields show no luster breaks. The color is vibrant and lays on the coin well. Next to a colored Morgan Bryan of TexasBullionTraders showed me, this was the finest at the show.

Dog97 · May 31, 2003 4:48PM

I agree with what snake & steven said about the naked eye. One of my favorite CC dmpls was an 83 I think. It came from a new die because the devices looked like fresh snow & it was blast white and I saw the polish lines on accident. You had to look real real close and know what you were looking for to see them again and have the coin tilted just right. They radiated outward from the center of the coin and whichever way I tilted the coin the lines turned & pointed that way. Kinda omni-directional. Real cool & pretty, they weren't unattractive at all because like I said you just didn't see them.

ksteelheader · May 31, 2003 11:02PM

Die polish is as minted, which in my mind equals Mint State.....Ken

tsacch · June 1, 2003 12:03AM

I totally understand that die lines are "as minted" and somtimes only visible under power of 10X or higher.

I guess how i am relating this to me personally is as follows.....I have a nice NGC MS62 Bust half looks like original tone to me, or a very old cleaning that has retoned nicely. I have thought of sending in for a regrade.....I have seen very skanky MS63 and 64's in pcgs and ngc tombs, and my 1812 is a very nice strike, but under 10x you see die polish lines. I dont submit to ngc as i am not a dealer and the dealers i have shown the coin to say "it wont grade higher b/c of the die polish", or "it will go AU58"...trying to site what i see as clearly not a 100% strike.

I have not read the pcgs grading rules, but i did think that planchet quality and die quality affected the grade.....or so i am told.

Thats a marvelous coin, dont get me wrong, I would love to have it in my shoe box.........just trying to learn.

coingame2000 · June 1, 2003 1:30AM

I saw the coin in question at the Long Beach coin show yesterday and seriously considered buying it for inventory. It's a breathtaking piece, which is not only graded accuratey -- but is a very nice MS68 with extraordinary eye appeal.

Mike

roadrunner · June 1, 2003 2:19AM

Many Liberty Seated coins, especially in the 1860's, have lots of die polish. It has never factored in my decision on whether to buy a coin or not. I have bought many such coins over the years as "cleaned" or "damaged" and I'm sure many board members have too. To me they have less an effect on a coin's grade than an additional bagmark or carbon spot.

roadrunner

ANACONDA · June 1, 2003 2:27AM

"I have not read the pcgs grading rules, but i did think that planchet quality and die quality affected the grade.....or so i am told. "

I think it often does. On the coin in question, remember that the largest image of the coin is about 15 times or more actual size so tiny
flaws are magnified. Thin inconspicuous die polishing marks can become omnipresent and eye grabbing when in fact they are not when
the coin is in hand.

Draco · June 1, 2003 4:42AM

I've never seen a coin with a planchet flaw that I found appealing.

Die flaws, however. . . .what about the 1818 N10 and 1820 N13 one cent coins? Those die cracks are stunning and don't affect the grade that I know of. In fact, I do believe that the larger and more pronounced the crack, the more valuable the coin is. So my thought is that "as minted" = mint state no matter what the flaw. How about those three legged buffs? I don't own any, but I don't think they come with any net grade for damage because the emplyees rubbed one of the legs off.

(this 1818 beauty is owned by another board member)

jbsteven · June 1, 2003 9:06AM

Adrian:

please check your PM's

thanks

how does a morgan go MS 68 with die polish lines???

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