what did barneys morgan go for in the goldberg auction?

michael · May 26, 2003 4:38PM

does anyone know what barneys monster toned morgan went for in the goldberg auction
i know he posted it on here and was wondering if he made the right move?

i am curious how it made out and if he was able to sell it for good money?

sincerely michael

i never saw the coin in person but some said it was okie a few said it was really really nice!

Bear · May 26, 2003 4:45PM

Give a year, a grade, some inkling about the coin and we might be able

to give you the sale price.

K6AZ · May 26, 2003 5:36PM

I've followed this from the begining. Though I feel sorry for Barney, anyone who pays four digits for a common MS64 Morgan regardless of the color is asking for trouble. His 86 MS64 Morgan went for $700. Wonder if the guy who sold it to him for a high four digit price will respond to this thread? He posts here....

Bear · May 26, 2003 5:39PM

We all make mistakes. We clean out those errors,

learn a few lessons and move on with our hobby.

K6AZ · May 26, 2003 5:42PM

Baseball, if you click on my link below to A Close Look at Accugrade, you will find links towards the bottom for the Diane Hager vs. Barry Stuppler hearing. Enough to keep you busy for a while.

ElectricEye · May 26, 2003 5:43PM

I too was watching the Morgans go ~ hit bid twice on one auction and watched it close with no bidders? ~ bid on a few, the bids placed and then watched them go for crazy money ~ reminds me off the Little John's Gun Auctions I attended in the 90's, winners paying retail plus...but of course, Little John's uses shills too...

eagle7 · May 26, 2003 10:46PM

I think he would have gotten more money for the 86 in a Heritage auction. Ive seen such coins as his sell for 1500.00 over there. But who really knows. A proper venue can be important as well as looking around at all options before spending a lot of money on a particular coin. What really bothers me is that because of being ripped off on his initial buy, this man will never buy again. IMO the seller has done harm to the coin hobby and to his own market by being short sighted. Prices for nicely toned Morgan dollars which are the real deal are already dropping on EBAY and at Heritage. The market will eventually right itself but in the mean time how many people like Barney have been driven out for good?

Russ · May 27, 2003 2:13AM

Even at $700, which is $805 with the juice, the coin sold at just over 20x Greysheet ask.

Russ, NCNE

CarlWohlforth · May 27, 2003 2:16AM

I don't believe the coin hit the reserve. So I don't think it sold.

DCAMFranklin · May 27, 2003 2:28AM

<< I've followed this from the begining. Though I feel sorry for Barney, anyone who pays four digits for a common MS64 Morgan regardless of the color is asking for trouble. His 86 MS64 Morgan went for $700. Wonder if the guy who sold it to him for a high four digit price will respond to this thread? He posts here.... >>

Sounds like you are taking the long way around the bush there K6AZ. Trying to take a swipe at somebody in a roundabout manner? You think you need to say something, then just say it. If, on the other hand, you don't really need to say it, or it shouldn't be said, then don't post it.

Bear · May 27, 2003 2:32AM

Its nice to know that all the wise heads on this Forum have never

made a mistake in their collecting enthusiasm. It sure is wonderful

to be among so many perfect, all knowing , all seeing people.

Now if you can just turn all that perfect knowledge towards advising us ,after the fact,

on the stock market, we can all be rich in retrospect.

Tonelover · May 27, 2003 2:34AM

I think it's shameful that the dealer who sold it to him did not offer a reasonable buyback in the first place. Barney reported the dealer passing altogether because he had just made some recent purchases or some nonsense like that. The dealer knew that he couldn't make money if he had to buy it back at even 50%, so he made up an excuse to dodge the bullet.

I believe I know who the dealer is and he's actually been around for a long time. I was surprised by his actions and I will not look at his offerings in the future. And many people would be shocked at the number of the highly regarded internet/ebay/wannabee "dealers" who want absolutely nothing to do with coins they've sold. I spoke to one recently and asked what he'd do if he had to buy back some of the stuff which he sold at exorbitant levels. He was surprised at the possibilty and he'd never thought about it, but that it wouldn't be a pretty picture.

Be careful out there, and if in doubt, ask.

Clankeye · May 27, 2003 3:01AM

<< I think it's shameful that the dealer who sold it to him did not offer a reasonable buyback in the first place. Barney reported the dealer passing altogether because he had just made some recent purchases or some nonsense like that. The dealer knew that he couldn't make money if he had to buy it back at even 50%, so he made up an excuse to dodge the bullet. >>

I had to repeat what Tonelover said here, because I agree with it so stongly. Also this:

<< I believe I know who the dealer is and he's actually been around for a long time. I was surprised by his actions and I will not look at his offerings in the future. >>

I agee strongly with that, too. And will act accordingly. Things don't happen in a vaccum. You don't get a mulligan on something like this in my book. Take the money and run... run so far you're out there all by your lonesome.

Clankeye

DCAMFranklin · May 27, 2003 3:07AM

Now here is a practice that the big, loud "Dealers" want to stand up, beat their chest, and brag about. The holy grail of "Dealers". The holy buyback! What seperates the wheat from the chaff. What seperates the "Dealers" from the "wannabee" dealers and the "ebay dealers". What a bunch of crap! Perhaps what SMART collectors will put a larger enphasis upon is the ability to pay the right price. If that means passing on an overpriced coin, then do it! If that means negotiating the fluff out of a price, then do it! (Oh, but I may damage my future relationship with the dealer!?

Oh me, Oh my!) Anyone out there thinking there is a limited supply of "dealers" trying to sell you coins? I didn't think so. Last time I bought a Suburban, I beat the dog out of that price. Think that car dealer doesn't want to do business with me again? Forget it! He calls twice a year trying to get me trade in the Honda for one of his cars. Same thing applies with coin dealers.

What is a buyback anyway? Think about it! An interest-free loan for the "Dealer", with a 20 point penalty for the utilization. The "Dealer" moves his inventory, receives his full price for the coin right then and has the use of that money for as long as the collector retains that coin. Then, the collector can expect 80%, or 90% of that price 2 years or 20 years down the line. Or perhaps the dealer will give him "full value" for the coin, but only if the collector buys another highly inflated coin from the "Dealer". And that is ONLY if that "Dealer" is still in business. Plenty of "Dealers" within 10 or 20 years of retirement. A few bad business decisions and they are out of business. Where is your buyback feature then? Forget about it! I would rather negotiate the coin down to 90% or 85% of the asking price, buy the coin, own the coin, take responsibility for my purchase and worry about how I will sell the coin down the line. For coins selling for less than $1,000, Ebay does just fine for selling a coin. If you are dealing with some real rarities, then consign them to the FUN Show auction and realize a price well in advance of what you paid.

Just my opinion.

Clankeye · May 27, 2003 3:12AM

<< Perhaps what SMART collectors will put a larger enphasis upon is the ability to pay the right price. >>

Of course they will. We're not talking about those people. In my book this is about TAKING ADVANTAGE. Period. To make a RIP. To manipulate the uniformed.

And if you know better, and you do it--then you are a low life.
And that's the Universal "You" DCAM... not you in particular.

Just my opinion.

Clankeye

LegendSteve · May 27, 2003 3:21AM

No dealer is obliged to offer any buyback, let alone a set and protracted buyback policy. Likewise, no buyer is obliged to purchase at the asking price. But, I do think you can tell a lot about the dealer based on how sincere he is on the buyback issue. It is important that a dealer is willing to stand behind his product.

We at Legend do not feel it is appropriate to deal in items (or at prices) for which we don't believe a true secondary market exists. If a true secondary market exists for such-and-such material at that price level, then we *should* be able to offer a fair buyback. (There are, of course, exceptions to this...)

Steve

kranky · May 27, 2003 3:21AM

Good for you, DCAMFranklin, that you don't have any use for a buyback. But Barney was new to coins. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that a dealer that buys and sells coins might be interested in buying one that he sold previously.

Paying the "right" price is a wonderful goal. But for a collector who isn't knee-deep in the hoopla all the time it's a challenging task. Lots of coins aren't in the sheet, the ones in the sheet aren't right anyway, you have Trends, Coin Prices, auction records and ebay all with conflicting pricing data, you have to know if the coin is a just-made-it or a PQ example, etc. etc. In fact, I say it's nearly impossible for a non-dealer to know what the "right" price is for any coin over $1000. Ballpark, yes. But determining what a coin is "really" worth when most of the perceived value is in the toning, no.

Tonekiller · May 27, 2003 3:28AM

If I remember correctly Barney bought the Morgan with other slabbed coins in trade. While he over paid for the coin by 4x he did not use cash. It is difficult to do buybacks at any percentage off when no cash traded hands but only coins (that must be sold to generate the cash)

This is not a straight story of the evil dealer vs. the uneducated collector. Both individuals in this transaction as responsible adults. What you have is a dealer selling a coin for HIS full price based off of TRADE numbers not cash, and a collector thinking he was ripping a coin. I met Barney 30 minutes after he bought the coin at the show that day and could tell he was excited but also scared that he paid too much. I estimated the value that day of the coin at $1500.

Barney is a good guy but not a victim here. Yes the dealer could have made an offer to buyback the coin but he is not required to and should not be penalized for passing on it.

One thing my company does when we have a high end return is we take the coin back on consignment. If the coin was sold as a trade deal or is part of a larger lot that had special pricing for the entire lot. (multiple coins priced at one rate….hard to individualize). If the transaction is a single coin deal then we would offer a fair market cash buyback…..and yes that would be fair to the buyers as well as us. It does not help to anger your customers.

TBT

Bear · May 27, 2003 3:30AM

All of the dealers who have been long term members

of this Forum have buy backs of their coins at fair prices. I guess it pays

to do bussiness with people that you know.

Tonekiller · May 27, 2003 3:44AM

<< All of the dealers who have been long term members

of this Forum have buy backs of their coins at fair prices. I guess it pays

to do bussiness with people that you know. >>

I would also add.....just ask one of the board dealers. I have folks sending coins, bringing over coins to the table, emailing pic's to get realistic buy in prices (toned coins only). It only hurts the hobby to have collectors and DEALERS pay too much for coins that they can't get out off. (more than an accepted 20% loss)

TBT

Clankeye · May 27, 2003 3:48AM

<< Both individuals in this transaction as responsible adults. >>

No.

This situation is more about human beings and less about the coin business. And that is the last I have to say about it.

Clankeye

python · May 27, 2003 3:53AM

Here's the original thread on the coin. Text

zenny · May 27, 2003 4:23AM

in checking the original thread the dealer did offer a $2500 (full) refund on the coin to Barney.

if that makes anyone feel any better about the humanity of it all.

i reckon, however, that it was not an open-ended offer, and that also does not seem inhuman, to me.

the trade in prices did not seem horribly low, either, imho.

z

Russ · May 27, 2003 4:35AM

Python,

Thanks for the link to the original thread. So the dealer involved is somebody named Evan Gale.

Russ, NCNE

DCAMFranklin · May 27, 2003 5:04AM

After reading through the original thread, I'd have to agree with Zenny. He was clearly given multiple, severe warnings about the price of the coin. Regardless of the color, the coin was simply overpriced. He was given a 7 day full refund privilege and he should have utilized it! I have not met Barney and only know him through his posts here. He seems like a nice guy and I'm sure he is very likeable. However, a beginner should stick to nice white coins with lots of luster that are easily tracked to various price guides. Maybe after a number of years he could begin to dip his big toe into the deep and treacherous waters of color.

Kranky- In my previous post, I was not, in any way, picking on Barney. I surely didn't mean to make that implication. I just feel very strongly about a collector taking responsibility for his purchase price. If you don't like the price, then you try to negotiate a better price. Don't be afraid to walk away. Plenty of fish in the sea of coin collecting! The real point I was making in the previous post is that Tonekiller's holy buyback feature is not so important if a collector is careful in what he pays. Just my opinion.

K6AZ · May 27, 2003 5:19AM

DCAM wrote:

<< Sounds like you are taking the long way around the bush there K6AZ. Trying to take a swipe at somebody in a roundabout manner? You think you need to say something, then just say it. If, on the other hand, you don't really need to say it, or it shouldn't be said, then don't post it. >>

First of all, don't tell me what I should or shouldn't post, there is no faster way to get into a flame war with me than by doing that.

While you might like to kick back and watch me get into a confrontation with someone else, I have no use for it.

These super high dollar common date Morgans are a racket. Just try to sell a $3000+ MS64 common date to the dealer who sold it, you will be lucky if he offers you 30% of what he sold it for.

There are several sellers who think nothing of buying a toned Morgan for let's say $500, shooting an image of it, then manipulating the snot out of the colors in photoshop to the point where the image looks like a watercolor. Now it has become a $2000, $2500, $3000 coin. Doing this is nothing but fraud in my opinion. And it is because of these games played with high end toned Morgans that I avoid dealing with any over ~$300.

ER · May 27, 2003 5:23AM

I've been reading the discussions on this thread, along with Barney's post on the other forum, with interest and decided to jump in.
I wish Barney didn't have to make such expensive mistakes, but he did, and he took responsibilty for his actions like a MAN, and moved on with his life. Reminded me when I first started collecting a few years ago, knowing nothing about coins but buying into the hype of the Shop-At-Home and HSN guys and paying thru the nose for their coins. Didn't realize my mistakes until I decided to sell them to a local coin dealer. Needless to say, I learn a lot and continue to learn and collect / buy coins, and wouldn't let a few early negative experiences stop me from collecting. I guess the point is, TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTION. If you are not educated AND you buy stuffs on compulsion, then you are asking for trouble. What the heck are some of you guys blaming the dealer for?
( I am a collector, not a dealer. )
Am I making any sense?

Baley · May 27, 2003 5:42AM

just my opinion on "buybacks" "toning premium" and this coin specifically:

If the coin is sold by a dealer at a set price, the dealer is kind of morally, if not legally, obligated to offer to buy the coin back at a fair price, for the same grade evaluation it was sold at. If the coin carried a large premium because of some rare and/or desireable characteristic such as variety or spectacular eye appeal, then the dealer should, out of good business practice, honor same when repurchasing, if for no other reason than to maintain their reputation.

now on the other hand if the coin was at auction, and said buyer bid the coin up with a lot of other bidders to a level far beyond what the current market values similar coins, and then later suffers buyer's remorse or bidders hangover and decides to liquidate, I don't know how long later, well then in that case the buyer is under the burden to try to sell the coin and may receive more or less than paid, when shopped to the open market.

when so much of a coin's "value" (ie cost) is in asthetic "differentness" or "beauty", especially a non-constant for coins like toning is (and by this I mean toning changes over time, either slowly (inperceptably) or quickly (whoa, doctor) well then buyers of such items would do well to be aware of the risks associated with paying huge premiums for such a subjective quality.

of course, the value of ALL coins over their face value is subjective to collectors, it's just that some values are more established and reliable.. the coin is less liquid at that price. finding a buyer is more selective. whenever you overpay, whether by buying stocks at 100 or 1000 or infinite P/E ratios or buying coins making new highs in their values (recent auctions for top pops of all description) they you assume a proportionately greater risk of loss if you're forced to sell.

IMO if Barney holds onto his coin and enjoys it's beauty, he will someday get his money back out of the coin, and may even get a decent return, just as I might get my internet stock losses back someday.

it just may take a decade or three

stman · May 27, 2003 5:42AM

I've stated my opinion on this coin before so I'm not gonna go into great detail. I agree the buyer of this coin needs to own up to paying a price for a coin he loved and wanted. I think too many people on this board look at every coin as investment and what the buyback is. Sometimes if you want to gain ownership of a piece, you pay what you need to to own it.

I've done it and not cried if I sold at a big loss. I owned it, I enjoyed it, and I moved on. I also don't think many members helped Barney when he posted this coin saying what he paid and most everyone knocked him for paying what he did. I happen to love the coin. But I will state IMO this Monster toned market is starting to fall. I mean the big prices for what seems to be more on the market than can be absorbed.

Funny how they are all over the place these days. I do think Barney's Morgan set's itself apart from others, and if he wouldn't have stopped his eBay auction he would have probably got about 2K for it. I believe it was at 1800.00 when he ended it.

On a side note.... Many dealers attitude in this toned market when it's been hot is "How bad do you want it" with a grin on their face, Will come back and bite them in the long run. I know I will remember all these money grubbing dealers and hope to have that same grin again and say "How bad do you want to sell it."

au58 · May 27, 2003 5:51AM

Barney says it all when he says the following: "Needless to say this was a very expensive lesson...one I should have learned before. But I suffer from uncontrollable compulsions and poor decision-making, and this was but another example."

This is a very valuable lesson that all collectors can learn from. Coin collecting is discretionary, with all the attendant risks. On top of than, any time that you step out of the main stream (e.g., wild colors, ultra grades, low pops, etc.) to satisfy a compulsion, you are exacerbating the risk. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just something to be aware of.

michael · May 27, 2003 5:58AM

for me i do not think the toned market let alone the monster toned market will fall in fact it will only get better and better
FOR THE RIGHT COINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WITH THE RIGHT LOOK

1 there are many people who buy toned coins and think they have coins that are monster or great and this is far from the truth

2 there are others that might buy maybe great toned coins BUT PAY TOO MUCH that is also not good

3 and of course there are many who buy toned coins that think they are buying great toned coins and they are not besides overpaying for such!

i think that there are lots of the above three types lots and lots and that is okie

but to say the monster toned coin market is due for a fall just because you bought toned coins and not only overpaid but did not get monsters is well just not true

also the monster toned market really is not due for any fall as only one out of thousands are really monster toned YOU MIGHT think a coin is monster toned or even greatly toned but in reality it is NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and again even if by some ever so slight chance it is you might also overpay
that again is not good

but please do not harbor any resentment about dealers or the coin market when you jump in without understanding the below reality checks

buy coins only for fun as a hobby
coins are not an investment
only buy with discretionary funds
know and understand what you are looking at and be able to tell what a coin is worth and what its merits are all by yourself

if you cant do allof the above they

let the buyer beware

and get some education first before starting to buy hundreds to thousands of dollars of coins

sincerely michael

Baley · May 27, 2003 6:02AM

what was his compulsion to sell the coin right now ??

does he need his money out of the coin for something else, or is he just disgusted because he tried to flip it quick and it turns out it's harder than it looks to market monsters for fast profits?

either way, maybe the objective involved when buying the coin was mistaken, and similar errors in judgement caused the decision to try to sell it in the latest venue, which ended up costing even more?

braddick · May 27, 2003 6:05AM

You don't lose money until you sell.
Enjoy the coin- it sounds like a beauty! There is no reason you shouldn't love the look of it just as much today as the day you enthusiastically traded for it.

Baley · May 27, 2003 6:08AM

could someone please post the pictures of this coin again? or a link at least? I've tried and cant find the images.

stman · May 27, 2003 6:12AM

To clarify my statement on the market falling on toned coins what I mean is the average toned Morgans that were being bought for big prices, but in reality are just average. But the dealers that have the attitude of "How bad do you want it" I will have whatever attitude I choose to have. So if someones post was directed at me ( and I may be wrong) everybody has their own opinion and are entitled to it.

Just to be clear, most coins I have sold I went to the right person when selling and did fine so I didn't enter a market I knew nothing about. And also it is up to each person what is considered a Monster. What you feel is I might not.

K6AZ · May 27, 2003 6:17AM

Link to Barney's Coin

Russ · May 27, 2003 6:18AM

Baley,

Link to Barney's Morgan.

Edit: Damn, out-drawn again!

Russ, NCNE

TheThing · May 27, 2003 6:19AM

you people talking bad about the dealer who sold the coin to Barney need to get off his ass. He told Barney a price, and Barney purchased it. PERIOD. Some of you feel so so sorry for Barney. He gets a big chunk of change from our tax dollars and spends it on coins. He gets this chunk of change, and will continue to get it, AND said it was recently increased because of his disability, BUT, he sure as hell has the ability to still make his trip to Europe. Give me a freaking break. We are paying for Barney's stupidity, not him.

Baley · May 27, 2003 6:31AM

thanks guys. well it's certainly a special looking coin, unique even, and probably changes colors if you rotate it in the light. Certainly worth MS66 or maybe MS65PL 200-$500 money. Most of us would buy it at that level. I could even see it trading at MS67 money ($900) with interested bidders or among the offerings of an elite-type coin dealer.

Have seen similar coins offered at around $1500-2000 because of the toning, but sales at that level are sporadic, I think.. they are more liquid around $1000 currently, right? they used to be higher, at the peak of the frenzy. Is the frenzy ending?

3 more questions: what did Barney pay, when was this, and was it an auction or fixed price sale?

Russ · May 27, 2003 6:52AM

<< what did Barney pay, when was this, and was it an auction or fixed price sale? >>

Baley,

It was a trade deal. Barney traded the dealer a group of coins for which he had paid a total of $3100. The dealer valued them at $2500. Long Beach, September of last year.

Russ, NCNE

baccaruda · May 27, 2003 7:02AM

It was a trade deal. Barney traded the dealer a group of coins for which he had paid a total of $3100. The dealer valued them at $2500. Long Beach, September of last year.

Double-ouch. If the dealer gave him $2,500 for those coins then they're likely worth about $20,000. This is turning into one expensive coin.

Baley · May 27, 2003 7:06AM

holy cow, this just gets more involved doesn't it? now I'm curious as to what the traded coins were.

anyway, I think people should learn how to buy sell and trade on little items before leaping into big deals.

same goes for stocks and coins, although coins aren't supposed to be for investment, if you treat them like they are (and some do, quite successfully) one should be prepared for profits and losses.

sounds like he learned some valuable information by paying some tuition, and that's something.

in the meantime, Barney if you're reading this, try to learn to enjoy your coin! a little each day and someday the curves will cross and you'll be glad you bought it!

baccaruda · May 27, 2003 7:16AM

I always try to remember "Quality lasts long after the high price has been forgotten". Doesn't work too well for me.

If I get burned on the price of a coin it ends up looking like a turd to me, and looking at it only reminds me that I overpaid.

zenny · May 27, 2003 7:35AM

estimated value in the auction was $300-$400? yeow, i'll take it for $400. heck, i'll go to $500.

z

dragon · May 27, 2003 12:50PM

Which ever dealer sold that toned 86-P for $3000.00 should be reported to the ANA and the PNG IMO, as that is completely taking advantage of someone and blatant, gross overpricing by an unethical and unbelievably greedy dealer IMO.

Also, barring some unusual circumstances, any dealer that wouldn't be happy to buy back a recently sold coin for a minimum of 80% of the sale price is WAY overcharging, regardless of any lame excuses he/she may give IMO.

The dealer that 'stuck' Barney with that toned coin sounds like a real jerk to me.

dragon

TheThing · May 27, 2003 1:01PM

BS. Toned coins bring stupid money every single day. If that coin wasn't toned, you could make a case. If people didn't pay stupid money for toned coins, they wouldn't sell for stupid money.

dragon · May 27, 2003 1:09PM

<<< If people didn't pay stupid money for toned coins, they wouldn't sell for stupid money.>>>

Thanks for that newsflash and superior logic Thing, now, back under the bridge TROLL.

TheThing · May 27, 2003 1:17PM

when faced with the truth, call people names. good one.

K6AZ · May 27, 2003 1:23PM

Dragon, I agree with you completely of course. The only thing I am curious about is the fact that there are others that do the same thing, and are talked about here almost as if they were gods. I really wonder how they sleep at night.

K6AZ · May 27, 2003 1:25PM

Hey Thing, here is a piece of news for you. SS Disability is paid for through disability insurance premiums which are part of your payroll deductions, or part of your self employment taxes. They are not a handout.

Tonelover · May 27, 2003 1:31PM

I just asked Barney for clarification on the offering dealer's buyback offer and he set me straight. The dealer did apparently make a fair and reasonable offer so my comments and hostility towards that dealer were unjustified.

I seem to recall a thread saying that other events had transpired and I was mistaken. My apologies to all, particularly APRCI.

what did barneys morgan go for in the goldberg auction?

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