Just getting back to Barberlover (if he is still following the thread). Type MS Seated $s are available in 4 if you are patient (59 0, 60 0, & 71). But all except two of the ones I've seen are ugly & I wouldn't want them in my collection. The nice ones were selling for close to 5 money & probably got sold at their asking prices.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
What a great thread!!! Who bought the 1870-S Dollar? TDN---What about the high grade early Proofs....Pittman, Starr, Fairfield, Eliasberg, do you think those are undervauled, also. Is the 1871-CC in the Stack's sale the most fabulous CC Dollar? Who had the finest set?
Sorry but I have to take exception to the other seated series being relatively easier to assemble as a set in 63 to 65....compared to the dollars? NOT SO.
I can list 10 New Orleans mints, 10 San Fransisco mints, and of course the 4 rare CC mints that are not available with any frequency above MS63. You could wait years between an appearance. Probably half of these dates are not available with any frequency at MS62 or even MS60. That's 24 dates that are killers. Doesn't even include another dozen or two that would be challenging in nice MS64 or better. I'd stack up the quarters against the dollars any day and I'd win. It's not even close in my opinion since 4 or 5 of these are not even really obtainable in MS60.
It should also be noted that many of the pieces getting graded as MS61-62 on the very rarest of dates are there for show only. They are not uncs but merely graded as such to give date collectors more available supply. Same is true of the bust dollars. These were AU coins only 12-20 years ago.
PCGS pops show 4 seated dollars with pops less than 4 in UNC. The quarters have 19 such pieces. The abundance of rare "O" and "S" mints is what separates the quarters from all the other denoms. That's why I chose to specialize in those 25 years ago. Only problem was that there was essentially no supply to chose from. It's not a matter of $$$ but availability.
Would like to mention that bust dollars are type coins too. Who collects these in choice UNC by major variety? And yes, UNC seated dollars are multiples rarer than the common proofs. Even with the Rudolf prices, watch, CDN will not update their prices much at all. After all, they "know" pricing. While I don't collect seated dollars I do realize how underrated they are and have been trying to buy every decent piece coming my way over the past 2 years at a something within 10-20% of CDN. I found ONE coin!!
TDN---What about the high grade early Proofs....Pittman, Starr, Fairfield, Eliasberg, do you think those are undervauled, also.Is the 1871-CC in the Stack's sale the most fabulous CC Dollar? Who had the finest set?
Yes, early proofs are undervalued. Take an 1853 for example. Only 6 reportedly struck. Greysheet in 64 is only $20k. Pittman "choice PF" sold for almost $100k. A PF58 example recently changed hands for around $50k. Think Greysheet is off a little?????
No, the 71-CC is not the most fabulous CC dollar. But it's definitely one of the most fabulous.
I think James A Stack had a spectacular set, as did Eliasberg. But I think hands down that Fairfield was the best. Spectacular coin after spectacular coin.
BTW - Very few have ever collected separate MS and Proof sets, tho - that's a "new invention".
I cry UNCLE, and retract my hasty comparison amongst the various Seated denominations. To be honest, I knew that that would get a rise out of a few people who really know the series.
Seth,
Please PM Coinosaurus with your question about the 1870-CC. Tell him that you discovered original archival evidence that the Carson City Mint superintendent specifically forbade the use of specially prepared dies for that ceremonial striking -- as per the orders of the U.S. Mint superintendent and the Treasurer of the U.S. If he asks you to provide him with the evidence, tell him that he has to send you $5 for the shipping and reproduction of hard copy duplicates. Once he asks you for your mailing address, tell him that you lost the information. Once he seems exasperated, tell him it was a joke by yours truly.
BTW, Seth, Coinosaurus has uncovered very compelling evidence of something like FIVE "specimen" strikings of the 1870-CC dollar. Please keep in mind that just about every high grade (AU+) specimen I've seen has remnants of PL luster. However, his research was pretty compelling. And, he's shown me a glossy photo of Weimar White's own specimen. (Yes, it looks awfully like a "specimen" striking!)
Well, Andy, I live in SF. I own a ladder, icepick, could locate a couple miners' headlamps. The old mint building IS closed, therefore security is light. A few hundred bucks, can keep the cops quiet for a hour. I sure we can locate the original floorplan. You get the 1873-S Dollar, I'll take the 1870-S Three Dollar. What do you think?
Nah - she wouldn't shoot yah. That'd be too quick. Did you see the Hannibal Lector movies?
Poor Chris..... [head shaking slowly and a little tear appearing].
I have heard of solid documentation regarding CC Branch Mint Proofs. Whether that extends to Seated coins, I don't know - but didn't PCGS certify two 1855-S coins as Branch Mint Proofs?
I remember owning the half. As I remember it, no question. For some reason, I think that I had a question about the quarter, but I could be wrong.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
IMO, those top pop supergrade coins aren't the bargains. The bargains are the low pop early MS63s and MS64s. Or any nice coin near sheet since sheet is woefully pathetic!
I stand by this comment of mine and feel even more strongly about it. Dates in the 1840's selling for less than $10k and $20k in eye appealing MS63 or 64 respectively are some of the best buys in numismatics. I've looked at an awful lot of the best seated dollars out there the past year and believe that PCGS is very tight on giving the MS64 and MS65 grade to these coins.
Why do you think PCGS is so tight on specifically 64 and 65 Seated Dollars versus other kinds of coins?
For one reason, the coins tended to come off the die prooflike or semi prooflike. A seated dollar with full cartwheel luster is quite unusual. PCGS likes to reward luster - but the seated dollars just don't have it.
Also, the no motto dollars are killed by the big, open field above the eagle on the reverse. I've seen many a coin that had an obverse one or two grades higher than the reverse - an unusual situation in most American designs.
Strike is another reason. PCGS is pretty restrictive in giving the gem grade to a coin without a full [although not complete] strike. Early seated dollars often have weak stars and head of liberty which restricts the grade.
Also - if you look at the pop reports you will see that there is only 1 PCGS MS67 for the entire type! Now in my mind, that indicates that the bar has been set too high - that the MS67 will probably eventually be MS68 and we'll see a gradual iteration of all the grades below it. The trade dollar series - heavily exported and melted just like the Seated Dollar series but one third the length - has three MS68's and a half dozen MS67's. I'd expect the Seated Dollar series to eventually have a similar curve of top grades.
Bruce has seen far more Unc. Seated $s than I have; I looked at a number of them before buying a 59 O in MS 63 for my type set four years ago. IMO he's absolutely right re his comments on grading.
The most common coins of the series -- the ones I looked at because I didn't want to sell a family member or two to buy the coin -- are the 59 O, 60 O, and I believe the 1871 P & 1872 P. Re strike, New Orleans Seated $s typically have a weak strike on Miss Liberty's head & the surrounding stars. Of these New Orleans coins, most came from the hoard sold in the early 1960s, and it looks like the great white in Jaws took a bite or two out of most of them. I've yet to see one of them mark free in that area above the eagle on the reverse, even on a non-hoard coin.
Most of the 4s I've seen (forget the 5s, they're too expensive) were nasty coins. Typically, they're 1871 P or 1872 Ps, where the above striking and no-motto problems are not issues. They were either dipped out, or were technically graded ugly coins that were graded before eye appeal is as important as it is now.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I've thought that Seated Dollars are undervalued for many years. Unfortunately, I've finally come to the conclusion that they are just another of many series that will never really catch on. The series is just too difficult to complete.
Two seated $ in PC MS 66 were sold at FUN that should really receive a 67 grade if you consider the issue and type. These coins may never reach this grade though their price will or has. I've been looking at and for the best unc. seated $'s for years. They just did not survive as well, nor were they made as well, as the other seated series. K
I bought those two Seated Dollars at FUN-the 1848 and the 1854 in MS66. They are long off the market.
PCGS has a hard time grading what it doesn't see very often. Its quite apparent to me, they are still using "Marketing" grading on Seated Dollars. Meaning they expect them to look like Morgans (bright and shiney).
As fas as the Seated Dollar market in general, it is as strong as ever. I know I am working with several people who are trying to complete sets (just today we placed an 1862 PCGS MS65, one of 2 graded-at a hefty premiun OVERall published bids). And then, for some reason, there are people out there who will always buy a coin or two just to have one.
My on moan about these coins, I can't buy nearly enough (I am by far the strongest buyer of PCGS MS 65+ Seated Dollars-just try me)!
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
PCGS is only getting tighter on this series. I have watched them make practically NO coins in the past TWO years.
I hope it falls-I have too many people who want GEM pieces. Then I could buy them and make some money!!! I know the people who I supplu are committed to their projects.
Even if PCGS were to MS67 the 48+54, I'd still be a buyer-it really doesn't matter what holders they are in-they are REAL coins!
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
When real coins come on the market, prices are always strong. It doesn't make much difference what the series is - when a certain coin comes on the market that collectors have read about...dreamed about... but never thought they'd have an opportunity to purchase, well, price takes a bit of a back seat, doesn't it?
I still regret (almost daily) the sale of my 1871 PCGS 64 fully prooflike both sides absolutely GORGEOUS specimen that I swore I would DIE with.
If I could take back ONE sale, that would be it.
It can be recognized by a little scribbly scuff 6:00 reverse.
If you find it, PLEASE offer it to me.
I bought it in 1972 at a little coin shop in Walnut Creek, CA
RAW! Before grading, there was a tug of war with Billy Hall and some other dealers as to whether it was MS or Proof. It was THAT reflective. Also struck through a hair on reverse in a V shape.
I really love to find really nice AU-55 to 58 Seated Dollars -- when you can find them!! Since most Seated Dollars evenin Unc condition are heavily bagmarked (or kegmarked), when you find a really choice AU nearly unc coin with minimal contact marks, it's a beautiful sight to behold -- and scarce too!
Eventually I'll get a Proof-62 or 63 when the right certified coin comes along. I think that Seated Liberty Dollars are way undervalued compared to the common date high-grade Morgans which are only condition rare vs, Type and Date Rare SL Dollars. And I say this as an avid Morgan Dollar PL/DMPL Collector.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I've tried to buy every single nice 64 and up seated dollar I could get my hands on over the past 2 years. My standards are tough of course. Found a single coin. Passed on about 10 so-so ones....several of those were NGC65's. Pickings are slim. And it seems if you aren't Akers, Legend, or TDN.....you aren't gonna get offered too many of these...........
I was pleased enough with this MS-63 1870 $1 from the Sterling Collection that I was satisfied with having that as my lone type representative of the w/motto seated dollars!
Too much else to look for and to nail down at the moment!!! I am working on a very special coin issue that is something that has eluded me for 5 years after I stupidly passed on it in 1997. That won't happen again!
Stewart, I could actually use that 1794 for my type set but am not ready to shell out the $25-50K or whatever those now go for. Great coins though. I always loved the 1802 half. Once owned a wonderful XF45 at $500 back in the 1970's....sold it for $575 after a year because it had some very minor tooling that I missed. Dough. Early bust stuff is so hot, I'm not touching it until it has returned to earth....maybe in 2009.
It's getting so that the only major series left that are not undervalued are smaller seated denoms, and Barbers. Get them while you can.
I think everyone here will gladly fork over $50K for a 1794 50C in MS62. The coin will fetch well into the 6-figure arena. Have you seen the pops for that date in UNC? It is MUCH rarer in UNC than it's dollar counterpart!
EVP, that 1794 half may have the rarity but the 1794 dollar has the romance. The 1802 half in UNC is probably tougher than them both. But the 1794 dollar wins hands down. I haven't kept on the prices as I just don't pursue them. But if one should happen to fall into my lap on a local level, it would likely be bought for the $25-50K (or less) that I mentioned.
As an aside, I own several seated coins in UNC rarer than any of those bust coins mentioned above. Yet due to lower demand, will likely never come close to them price-wise. That's the downside of being the "Maytag Repairman" of numismatics.
I can take of your "unappreciated" seated stuff, just PM me
As for that EVP, I had not read his post from last May until this thread was resurrected today. Such a wiseacre he is
This reminds me, Rusty Goe has a book just out on Carson City coinage. I have not seen it yet but based on some things I've heard I expect some new information to be available in this book.
Comments
Type MS Seated $s are available in 4 if you are patient (59 0, 60 0, & 71). But all except two of the ones I've seen are ugly & I wouldn't want them in my collection. The nice ones were selling for close to 5 money & probably got sold at their asking prices.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Who bought the 1870-S Dollar?
TDN---What about the high grade early Proofs....Pittman, Starr, Fairfield, Eliasberg, do you think those are undervauled, also.
Is the 1871-CC in the Stack's sale the most fabulous CC Dollar?
Who had the finest set?
Seth
I can list 10 New Orleans mints, 10 San Fransisco mints, and of course the 4 rare CC mints that are not available with any frequency above MS63. You could wait years between an appearance. Probably half of these dates are not available with any frequency at MS62 or even MS60. That's 24 dates that are killers. Doesn't even include another dozen or two that would be challenging in nice MS64 or better. I'd stack up the quarters against the dollars any day and I'd win. It's not even close in my opinion since 4 or 5 of these are not even really obtainable in MS60.
It should also be noted that many of the pieces getting graded as MS61-62 on the very rarest of dates are there for show only. They are not uncs but merely graded as such to give date collectors more available supply. Same is true of the bust dollars. These were AU coins only 12-20 years ago.
PCGS pops show 4 seated dollars with pops less than 4 in UNC. The quarters have 19 such pieces. The abundance of rare "O" and "S" mints is what separates the quarters from all the other denoms.
That's why I chose to specialize in those 25 years ago. Only problem was that there was essentially no supply to chose from.
It's not a matter of $$$ but availability.
Would like to mention that bust dollars are type coins too. Who collects these in choice UNC by major variety? And yes, UNC seated dollars are multiples rarer than the common proofs. Even with the Rudolf prices, watch, CDN will not update their prices much at all. After all, they "know" pricing. While I don't collect seated dollars I do realize how underrated they are and have been trying to buy every decent piece coming my way over the past 2 years at a something within 10-20% of CDN. I found ONE coin!!
roadrunner
Who had the finest set?
Yes, early proofs are undervalued. Take an 1853 for example. Only 6 reportedly struck. Greysheet in 64 is only $20k. Pittman "choice PF" sold for almost $100k. A PF58 example recently changed hands for around $50k. Think Greysheet is off a little?????
No, the 71-CC is not the most fabulous CC dollar. But it's definitely one of the most fabulous.
I think James A Stack had a spectacular set, as did Eliasberg. But I think hands down that Fairfield was the best. Spectacular coin after spectacular coin.
BTW - Very few have ever collected separate MS and Proof sets, tho - that's a "new invention".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I cry UNCLE, and retract my hasty comparison amongst the various Seated denominations. To be honest, I knew that that would get a rise out of a few people who really know the series.
Seth,
Please PM Coinosaurus with your question about the 1870-CC. Tell him that you discovered original archival evidence that the Carson City Mint superintendent specifically forbade the use of specially prepared dies for that ceremonial striking -- as per the orders of the U.S. Mint superintendent and the Treasurer of the U.S. If he asks you to provide him with the evidence, tell him that he has to send you $5 for the shipping and reproduction of hard copy duplicates. Once he asks you for your mailing address, tell him that you lost the information. Once he seems exasperated, tell him it was a joke by yours truly.
BTW, Seth, Coinosaurus has uncovered very compelling evidence of something like FIVE "specimen" strikings of the 1870-CC dollar. Please keep in mind that just about every high grade (AU+) specimen I've seen has remnants of PL luster. However, his research was pretty compelling. And, he's shown me a glossy photo of Weimar White's own specimen. (Yes, it looks awfully like a "specimen" striking!)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Poor Chris..... [head shaking slowly and a little tear appearing].
I have heard of solid documentation regarding CC Branch Mint Proofs. Whether that extends to Seated coins, I don't know - but didn't PCGS certify two 1855-S coins as Branch Mint Proofs?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Both the 55-S 25c and 50c showed up in auction within the last few years. I think it was a B&M auction, and they did not sell.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Seth
I stand by this comment of mine and feel even more strongly about it. Dates in the 1840's selling for less than $10k and $20k in eye appealing MS63 or 64 respectively are some of the best buys in numismatics. I've looked at an awful lot of the best seated dollars out there the past year and believe that PCGS is very tight on giving the MS64 and MS65 grade to these coins.
Seth
For one reason, the coins tended to come off the die prooflike or semi prooflike. A seated dollar with full cartwheel luster is quite unusual. PCGS likes to reward luster - but the seated dollars just don't have it.
Also, the no motto dollars are killed by the big, open field above the eagle on the reverse. I've seen many a coin that had an obverse one or two grades higher than the reverse - an unusual situation in most American designs.
Strike is another reason. PCGS is pretty restrictive in giving the gem grade to a coin without a full [although not complete] strike. Early seated dollars often have weak stars and head of liberty which restricts the grade.
Also - if you look at the pop reports you will see that there is only 1 PCGS MS67 for the entire type! Now in my mind, that indicates that the bar has been set too high - that the MS67 will probably eventually be MS68 and we'll see a gradual iteration of all the grades below it. The trade dollar series - heavily exported and melted just like the Seated Dollar series but one third the length - has three MS68's and a half dozen MS67's. I'd expect the Seated Dollar series to eventually have a similar curve of top grades.
The most common coins of the series -- the ones I looked at because I didn't want to sell a family member or two to buy the coin -- are the 59 O, 60 O, and I believe the 1871 P & 1872 P. Re strike, New Orleans Seated $s typically have a weak strike on Miss Liberty's head & the surrounding stars. Of these New Orleans coins, most came from the hoard sold in the early 1960s, and it looks like the great white in Jaws took a bite or two out of most of them. I've yet to see one of them mark free in that area above the eagle on the reverse, even on a non-hoard coin.
Most of the 4s I've seen (forget the 5s, they're too expensive) were nasty coins. Typically, they're 1871 P or 1872 Ps, where the above striking and no-motto problems are not issues. They were either dipped out, or were technically graded ugly coins that were graded before eye appeal is as important as it is now.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
PCGS has a hard time grading what it doesn't see very often. Its quite apparent to me, they are still using "Marketing" grading on Seated Dollars. Meaning they expect them to look like Morgans (bright and shiney).
As fas as the Seated Dollar market in general, it is as strong as ever. I know I am working with several people who are trying to complete sets (just today we placed an 1862 PCGS MS65, one of 2 graded-at a hefty premiun OVERall published bids). And then, for some reason, there are people out there who will always buy a coin or two just to have one.
My on moan about these coins, I can't buy nearly enough (I am by far the strongest buyer of PCGS MS 65+ Seated Dollars-just try me)!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
I hope it falls-I have too many people who want GEM pieces. Then I could buy them and make some money!!! I know the people who I supplu are committed to their projects.
Even if PCGS were to MS67 the 48+54, I'd still be a buyer-it really doesn't matter what holders they are in-they are REAL coins!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
I still regret (almost daily) the sale of my 1871 PCGS 64 fully prooflike both sides absolutely GORGEOUS specimen that I swore I would DIE with.
If I could take back ONE sale, that would be it.
It can be recognized by a little scribbly scuff 6:00 reverse.
If you find it, PLEASE offer it to me.
I bought it in 1972 at a little coin shop in Walnut Creek, CA
RAW! Before grading, there was a tug of war with Billy Hall and some other dealers as to whether it was MS or Proof. It was THAT reflective. Also struck through a hair on reverse in a V shape.
Oh my little coin......where are you tonight?
Eventually I'll get a Proof-62 or 63 when the right certified coin comes along. I think that Seated Liberty Dollars are way undervalued compared to the common date high-grade Morgans which are only condition rare vs, Type and Date Rare SL Dollars. And I say this as an avid Morgan Dollar PL/DMPL Collector.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
roadrunner
Too much else to look for and to nail down at the moment!!! I am working on a very special coin issue that is something that has eluded me for 5 years after I stupidly passed on it in 1997. That won't happen again!
How about an uncirculated 1794 half dollar at Stack's tomorrow night?I have seen it and it is a nice ms 62 !!!!!
Stewart
Early bust stuff is so hot, I'm not touching it until it has returned to earth....maybe in 2009.
It's getting so that the only major series left that are not undervalued are smaller seated denoms, and Barbers. Get them while you can.
roadrunner
I think everyone here will gladly fork over $50K for a 1794 50C in MS62. The coin will fetch well into the 6-figure arena. Have you seen the pops for that date in UNC? It is MUCH rarer in UNC than it's dollar counterpart!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
But the 1794 dollar wins hands down. I haven't kept on the prices as I just don't pursue them. But if one should happen to fall into my lap on a local level, it would likely be bought for the $25-50K (or less) that I mentioned.
As an aside, I own several seated coins in UNC rarer than any of those bust coins mentioned above. Yet due to lower demand, will likely never come close to them price-wise. That's the downside of being the "Maytag Repairman" of numismatics.
roadrunner
I can take of your "unappreciated" seated stuff, just PM me
As for that EVP, I had not read his post from last May until this thread was resurrected today. Such a wiseacre he is
This reminds me, Rusty Goe has a book just out on Carson City coinage. I have not seen it yet but based on some things I've heard I expect some new information to be available in this book.