<< <i>Under some pressure from Mark, Guy reveals that the coin is on consignment to him at 25K and that he was going to charge his customer 30K. Mark convinces Guy to sell him the coin instead, at the same 30K, which at the time was about an MS64 price. A deal is consummated. Mark is thrilled because he thinks it's a 65 worth 100K. Guy pays the consignor 25K and both he and the consignor are happy. >>
Actually, neither question posed addresses what I see as an obvious moral lapse. Guy has no business informing Mark as to what amount the coin is consigned to him at. That's between the consignor and the consignee (unless the seller gives his permission). The consignment terms appear to me to be a flat term with any price garnered above that pure profit for the dealer. Is that correct? If so, then the disservice is minor. However, if the terms are for no less than $25k and a percentage of profit or total sales price, then it's a major disservice.
Dog- As someone who makes his living by being able to grade better than a good many other dealers, I take offense to your narrow minded view of how the coin business works. I get dealers and collectors that come up to me and ask my opinion on the chance a particular coin will upgrade quite often. I don't do charity work, and I make it quite clear to people that I do not. I will do split profit deals with people and in this case would have offered that to Guy in the first place. If he would have balked at that deal, then I would have tried to buy the coin outright. I make my living by my grading ability. Why should I be required to give my opinion out free of charge? Do you get paid for what you do for a living, or are you a resident of one of those communes where everyone donates their services for sustenance? In my opinion, Mark did nothing wrong. It may not have been particularly brilliant, but that is his problem. If he ends up upgrading the coin and Guy finds out, he will most likely never get Guy to show him a coin again. That is why I offer split profit deals to people, so they share in the wealth and then bring back deals to me again and again.
Thank you for clarifing your position coinguy1. I don't think the sequence of events is very important then. Andy said Guy said he wanted an opinion. But Guy decided a second opinion for his client really wasn't necessary when he saw the opportunity for a quick sale. Had Guy not let his greed for a quick $$ overwhelm him and instead insisted upon Mark for the opinion that he initially sought then he could have quadrupled his money. I'm starting to think Guy is a weasel too. Basically what it sounds like is that each party thinks they screwed the other and both are happy for it. Dealer screwing dealer-no harm no foul. But they one person that really got screwed was the poor collector cosignor who bought the coin on eBay for $30k and had Guy tell him it was only worth $25k and sold it for a ¼ of what he could have realized. Had this trusted dealer Guy been a tad more concerned about his cosignor's interests instead of lining his own pockets he would have done a coin screening & upgraded the coin and then sold it to Mark for a substantially larger profit and everybody would have benefited.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
What if Guy's retail customer doesnt like the coin. Does that mean Guy cannot accept a legitimate offer and forego a sale until the good retail customer says "no .. I dont want it"? I dont think Guy has that obligation.
Everybody got what they wanted in the end, except the good retail customer, who never knew about the coin in the first place.
HOWEVER, if the coin was consigned for the distinct potential sale to the good retail customer.. then,
1. Yes 2. Yes
I do think that there is the obligation to make the retail customer aware of the coin AS SOON AS IT IS OBTAINED. And therefore, Mark would only be asked for his opinion and would have also been made aware that Guy had an interested client.
Sorry for answering the question both ways, but the points I brought up were not clear in the original post.
1. absent information of a prior arrangement with the customer, I see no reason that Guy would have been "morally bound" to take the coin "back home" and hope his customer liked it as much as Mark did. Who knows, with the extra 5k in his pocket, Guy might be able to find something even better.
2. by offering "retail" for the coin it is obvious what Mark thinks. He has given his opinion through his actions. Guy can't actually believe Mark is his fairy godmother, can he?
did "mark" buy the coin because "he loved it" or because "he loved it for it's business potential". significant difference Mark loved it as a coin AND as a business deal? Why does that matter with respect to the morality issues?
for me, it is a major issue. i always stand behind the philosophy of:
if you like the coin, really really like it, then the price does not matter.
but this only applies to collecting, not business.
ie if mark is buying it purely as a collector, moral obligations, etc on the part of mark & guy go out the window. the price is the price, & it just doesn't matter. but if mark is all caught up in the beauty of the piece, yet is firmly entrenched as a dealer, then he's mixing business w/ pleaasure, & that is a no-no. someone's gonna get burned BIG-time
I haven't read all the responses yet, but, I'm going to be contrary, based on the first few I did read.
1. Yes 2. Yes
It appears he immediately thought of this client when he received the coin, and he should have at least informed the proposed customer. THIS is why I won't even bother giving a want list. I believe this is the most prevalent scenario when it comes to collectors and want lists. By the time the "decent" coin gets in a collector's hands, its maxed out grade and price wise. Not to say the collector won't benefit from a coin appreciating, but, all present value does not have to be consumed on the selling end. Obviously, the dealer consigned to was happy with $30K; the end user should benefit from any further value. This is middle-man upon middle-man, and some wonder why there is a perception that many desireable coins are way overpriced.
As far as the 2nd opinion, it was never given. That is really the only reasont dealer #2 got to see the coin in the first place. If dealer #2 feels no obligation to respond to dealer #1s request, dealer #1 should NOT avail his inventory to him, that is, if he is TRULY interested in what he acquires for his clientele.
Now that I've read through page 1 an the top 2 posts, I would like to offer additional comment.
Mark (Coinguy1), I like you bud, but I am somewhat taken aback by your doublespeak (first time I've recall thinking this way).
First, I read that Guy showed the coin to Mark AND asked for his opinion; not Guy showed the coin to Mark, Mark made an offer AND THEN Guy asked for an opinion. In either event, the opinion was solicited before a deal was struck. An offer to purchase isn't an opinion other than by inference only; it only infers that you aren't asking too much.
But ,more to the point of my criticism: doublespeak. You stated you offer it to your client before selling to a dealer for reasones espoused by Wisconsin and someone else (I'm on page 2 and can't see the original responses). Those reasons amounted to "good business sense," or something along those lines. Doesn't that amount to YOUR feeling of a "moral obligation"? Aren't your business practices dictated by your morals AND feelings? Isn't that what a moral obligation entails?
MS68 Why should I be required to give my opinion out free of charge? I don't say you are "required" but are you familiar with the concept of "professional courtesy?" But, I assume that won't matter as I imagine not many would ask for your opinion without considering it will cost them. This is NOT a negative on you; I imagine you've made your position known to anyone who would consider asking for your opinion. In that case, a professional courtesy would not be expected.
Many interesting comments, and we haven't even hit the good stuff yet!
Grades will be posted sometime late this afternoon, along with the rest of Chapter 2. Gee, I wonder, will the coin come back in a body bag or a 66 holder or badly fingerprinted or .... ?????
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
He was under no obligation, unless he told the customer that it was coming.
It depends on Mark/Guy's relationship. If it was a casual, free info, type, Mark had no obligation. If their relationship was closer, then he should have given him his thoughts.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Several weeks have passed. Mark has sent his 1813 half eagle to both major grading services. Both have bodybagged the coin for "Altered Surfaces". (In fact, the entire coin was probably very lightly whizzed.) Although Mark still thinks the coin looks great, he realizes that he made a big mistake paying 30K for the coin. He now has many options, including the following:
1. Accept that he made a mistake and sell the coin for what it is, a 20K+ loss.
2. Try to return the coin to Guy for a full or partial refund.
3. Without saying what the coin graded, tell Guy a story about needing money. Consign the coin back to Guy and let him try to sell it to the original "customer back home".
4. Put the coin in an auction, raw, hoping that someone else will make the same mistake.
5. Send the coin to ACG with a required "minimum grade" of MS 65.
What should Mark do?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Tell Guy that the coin did not work for him and see if his customer would be interested in it. IF Guy should ask about the services, etc., do not lie to Guy.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Obviously with Mark now being stuck (shows you what his opinion was worth to begin with) he needs to find an outlet for the coin.
I think he should go back to Guy. Although Guy did not represent (or know) the nature of the coin he was selling, he should bear the repsonsibility of sharing in the losses. I dont think this would happen in reality, so auctioning it would be the best way to recoup the most money.
Did it ever occur to Mark that the coin may not be slabbed for a reason? Certainly a coin worth that much money is worthy of the grading fee.
I guess the first course of action should be to go back to Guy and try to work out a solution, which could be asking Guy to take back the coin. That means swallowing some pride, but Mark either has to swallow his pride or swallow a five digit loss. And for all Mark knows at this point in time, Guy was taken in by the coin as well–it has not yet been established by the facts presented that Guy knew that the coin was whizzed. Guy would then have the chance to share in the loss or maybe go back to the consignor of the coin for restitution. The consignor, if there really is one, could have been another dealer who when put to the test might step up to make good on at least some part of the loss. It depends on who the players are and what their professional relationship is.
I am suspicious however that Guy might have taken Mark for ride here, knowing that the coin was very deceptively doctored and that it looked better than a $30K coin. Now I know that some dealers take the attitude that they will not sell a doctored coin to a collector without disclosure but when it comes to other dealers a different set of rules apply. Dealers are supposed to be experts who can protect themselves and if they can't they will either learn from their mistakes or leave the trade. If that is the case, and Guy stiffs Mark, Mark will have to decide whether to eat the loss or try to pass it on to an innocent party.
If he decides on the latter, the auction route is best where it would be offered "as is" without warranty other than perhaps a refund right if it is not genuine. The sticky part is how will it be described and graded in the catalog?
Let's face it, Mark went for what he thought was the big payoff. When you swing for the fences, you have to be prepared to strike out sometime. He did.
I didn't feel Guy owed it to his good retail customer to take the coin back home and show it to him, unless they had somekind of an arrangement, like a deposit to assure first right of refusal. Afterall, Guy could take the coin home and "maybe" he was going to get the $5,000 profit on the consignment coin. Or, he could sell the consignment coin to Mark right then and he was SURE to make the $5,000 profit. Me? I like the sure thing everytime. I'm hoping Guy didn't know the coin was lightly whizzed, though that might be where the story goes.
I believe Guy will consign the coin to an auction house. Like someone else said, let the buyer beware.
If a dealer bought a coin for that kind of money and it came back bodybagged TWICE then Mark should eat it and chalk it up to a lesson learned in spotting a whizzed coin. Sounds like something I would do
Let's assume that Mark simply made a mistake when grading the 1813 and really does know a thing or two....heck...even the best make mistakes!!
Now, one option Andy did not provide is for Mark to simply leave the coin raw, and find another Mark to sell the coin to. However, this may cause a problem for him down the road as far as the acution route if he "burns" it trying to sell it outright again by finding another like himself.
Absent using the above mentioned option, I suspect he would go to auction with it. Going back to Guy is not an option...in my book anyway. I assume here, and one has to make several assumptions along the way here, that Guy did not "set" Mark up from the get-go.
I don't like option 3 because Mark would knowingly be passing along a problem coin to a client.....granted not his client...but a person he knows has a sincere interest in the coin. One could argue that for Mark to place the coin at auction he would be doing the same thing, but there is a real difference in that at auction the bidder is choosing to bid where offering the coin to an interested client makes him captive.....a subtle difference but one I think is very important....to me anyway.
Neat thread Andy....however I do agree with whomever suggested posting the different chapters to separate threads.
He probably dumps it to auction, but I think he should cut his losses and learn the lesson.
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
If I were to buy a 30k coin I sure as heck would not have missed that it was whizzed and yes I would have chalked it up to experience. I assume you would not. Now what would I do with it? auctiontime!
Number one. You pays your money, you takes your chances.
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
Why would it be ok for Guy to sell a whizzed coin and not share in the responsibilty of the loss? You dont know if he had knowledge of it being whizzed.
Youre right.. Why would Guy want to share the loss? But, if he had knowledge of a whizzed coin then he should. And to take it further.. if he didnt know about the coin being whizzed he should certainly assist in helping Mark recoup his loss, however he could.
And to some of you... why is it wrong for Mark to try and buy a coin that may upgrade? Why is Mark the weasel? Dont we all try to buy coins that look great and may upgrade?
I think this might even turn out that Guy is the weasel. But we will see.
Because people should stand by what they sell!! If the value of the whizzed coin is less than what was represented (not I am thinking..."whether he had knowledge or not").. then he should take it back.
Whether guy knew the coin was wizzed or not is not known. He may have been trying to set mark up and he took the bait. Now what?? Well I guess he has take the loss and move on. He made the offer to buy the coin and was thinking he was going to make the big money. If he were right and the coin was worth much more, would he try to take it back then?? I doubt it. His only option as far as I can see is to take the big loss and move on.
Now that he knows of the coins problems, he should also tell the auction company so it can be properly sold.. It is he right way to do it. Like when I get a bodybagged coin back from PCGS. I sell it on ebay, but I sell it as a body bagged coin and feel obligated to do so. Some may not agree, but that is what I feel is right.
Why should Guy take the coin back? The answer depends on the standard of ethics among dealers in inter-dealer transactions. Is it that each dealer must stand on his own feet and if he buys a whizzed coin from another dealer he is stuck with the loss? Or is it that if a dealer sells another dealer a doctored coin without disclosure and at a price that is way above the price of a doctored coin he should take it back or share in the loss?
And what was the business relationship between the two dealers? If they did a lot of deals together, Guy might want to help bail out Mark to preserve their business relationship, because he can be sure that Mark is not going to deal with him again after this unless he can convince Mark that he was also clueless that the coin was doctored.
Of course if Guy knew the coin was doctored then he was screwing Mark. But even then he might take the coin back or share the loss if he is called on it, just so that word does not get around that he is a sleeze bag. Kind of the old Hollywood concept that if you don't live up to a hand shake agreement "you never work in this town again." Works in the diamond business too, or at least it used to.
A legalistic way to look at it is whether there is an implied warranty of merchantability. Does the UCC exclude transactions between coin dealers? Or is there a trade custom that says there are no implied warranties in inter-dealer transactions?
Everyone is a "big boy" in this scenario. Nobody owes anybody anything. If you have the kahoona's to buy and sell RAW coins for tens of thousands of dollars you better know what you are doing. A bad investment decision is placed squarely on the buyer, and the buyer must assume 100% responsiblity for his own decisions.
The consigner doesn't owe anybody. Dealer #1 doesn't owe Dealer #2 anything. Dealer #2 swung for the fences and struck out. Expensive lesson learned.
If I were Dealer #2 I'd send the coin to a major auction house and let the chips fall where they may. He may recoup some of his investment, miraculously make a ton of $$$, or lose his arse. That's what happens when you play high stakes poker.
Does Mark tell Guy when asked his opinion , that this coin might be better than a 64? He then pressures Guy to sell it to him, thinking it might be a 65. Now Mark gets burned? Somehow I don't think so for long!
For those who think Mark can just dump the coin off on an auction house and have it sold as a "clean" coin, you are assuming that the cataloger will not detect the fact that it has been whizzed and so state in the catalog description.
If the value of the whizzed coin is less than what was represented...
NOTHING was represented. In fact, Guy asked Mark for HIS opinion. That very fact implies that even if Guy had offered his own opinion as to the coins quality and/or value, his opinion should not and could not be relied upon.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
This is going to be a classic thread. I have a feeling there are going to be lots of marks before the story is over.
<< <i>Under some pressure from Mark, Guy reveals that the coin is on consignment to him at 25K and that he was going to charge his customer 30K. Mark convinces Guy to sell him the coin instead, at the same 30K, which at the time was about an MS64 price. A deal is consummated. Mark is thrilled because he thinks it's a 65 worth 100K. Guy pays the consignor 25K and both he and the consignor are happy. >>
Actually, neither question posed addresses what I see as an obvious moral lapse. Guy has no business informing Mark as to what amount the coin is consigned to him at. That's between the consignor and the consignee (unless the seller gives his permission). The consignment terms appear to me to be a flat term with any price garnered above that pure profit for the dealer. Is that correct? If so, then the disservice is minor. However, if the terms are for no less than $25k and a percentage of profit or total sales price, then it's a major disservice.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
In my opinion, Mark did nothing wrong. It may not have been particularly brilliant, but that is his problem. If he ends up upgrading the coin and Guy finds out, he will most likely never get Guy to show him a coin again. That is why I offer split profit deals to people, so they share in the wealth and then bring back deals to me again and again.
I don't think the sequence of events is very important then.
Andy said Guy said he wanted an opinion. But Guy decided a second opinion for his client really wasn't necessary when he saw the opportunity for a quick sale. Had Guy not let his greed for a quick $$ overwhelm him and instead insisted upon Mark for the opinion that he initially sought then he could have quadrupled his money. I'm starting to think Guy is a weasel too.
Basically what it sounds like is that each party thinks they screwed the other and both are happy for it. Dealer screwing dealer-no harm no foul.
But they one person that really got screwed was the poor collector cosignor who bought the coin on eBay for $30k and had Guy tell him it was only worth $25k and sold it for a ¼ of what he could have realized.
Had this trusted dealer Guy been a tad more concerned about his cosignor's interests instead of lining his own pockets he would have done a coin screening & upgraded the coin and then sold it to Mark for a substantially larger profit and everybody would have benefited.
2. No
What if Guy's retail customer doesnt like the coin. Does that mean Guy cannot accept a legitimate offer and forego a sale until the good retail customer says "no .. I dont want it"? I dont think Guy has that obligation.
Everybody got what they wanted in the end, except the good retail customer, who never knew about the coin in the first place.
HOWEVER, if the coin was consigned for the distinct potential sale to the good retail customer.. then,
1. Yes
2. Yes
I do think that there is the obligation to make the retail customer aware of the coin AS SOON AS IT IS OBTAINED. And therefore, Mark would only be asked for his opinion and would have also been made aware that Guy had an interested client.
Sorry for answering the question both ways, but the points I brought up were not clear in the original post.
In the end.. I think Mark gets beat!!! JMHO.
WWQ
2. by offering "retail" for the coin it is obvious what Mark thinks. He has given his opinion through his actions. Guy can't actually believe Mark is his fairy godmother, can he?
z
for me, it is a major issue. i always stand behind the philosophy of:
if you like the coin, really really like it, then the price does not matter.
but this only applies to collecting, not business.
ie if mark is buying it purely as a collector, moral obligations, etc on the part of mark & guy go out the window. the price is the price, & it just doesn't matter. but if mark is all caught up in the beauty of the piece, yet is firmly entrenched as a dealer, then he's mixing business w/ pleaasure, & that is a no-no. someone's gonna get burned BIG-time
K S
I am waiting for chapter 2!!!!!!!!
Both dealers in my opinion feel that they both put something over on the other.
Mark probably thinks he got an upgrade and Guy probably made a killer mark-up (not what he claims) or knows something that Mark doesn't.
I assume we will find out in the coming episodes.
All I can say is good luck to both of them.
Joe.
1. Yes
2. Yes
It appears he immediately thought of this client when he received the coin, and he should have at least informed the proposed customer. THIS is why I won't even bother giving a want list. I believe this is the most prevalent scenario when it comes to collectors and want lists. By the time the "decent" coin gets in a collector's hands, its maxed out grade and price wise. Not to say the collector won't benefit from a coin appreciating, but, all present value does not have to be consumed on the selling end. Obviously, the dealer consigned to was happy with $30K; the end user should benefit from any further value. This is middle-man upon middle-man, and some wonder why there is a perception that many desireable coins are way overpriced.
As far as the 2nd opinion, it was never given. That is really the only reasont dealer #2 got to see the coin in the first place. If dealer #2 feels no obligation to respond to dealer #1s request, dealer #1 should NOT avail his inventory to him, that is, if he is TRULY interested in what he acquires for his clientele.
Mark (Coinguy1), I like you bud, but I am somewhat taken aback by your doublespeak (first time I've recall thinking this way).
First, I read that Guy showed the coin to Mark AND asked for his opinion; not Guy showed the coin to Mark, Mark made an offer AND THEN Guy asked for an opinion. In either event, the opinion was solicited before a deal was struck. An offer to purchase isn't an opinion other than by inference only; it only infers that you aren't asking too much.
But ,more to the point of my criticism: doublespeak. You stated you offer it to your client before selling to a dealer for reasones espoused by Wisconsin and someone else (I'm on page 2 and can't see the original responses). Those reasons amounted to "good business sense," or something along those lines. Doesn't that amount to YOUR feeling of a "moral obligation"? Aren't your business practices dictated by your morals AND feelings? Isn't that what a moral obligation entails?
MS68
Why should I be required to give my opinion out free of charge? I don't say you are "required" but are you familiar with the concept of "professional courtesy?" But, I assume that won't matter as I imagine not many would ask for your opinion without considering it will cost them. This is NOT a negative on you; I imagine you've made your position known to anyone who would consider asking for your opinion. In that case, a professional courtesy would not be expected.
Grades will be posted sometime late this afternoon, along with the rest of Chapter 2. Gee, I wonder, will the coin come back in a body bag or a 66 holder or badly fingerprinted or .... ?????
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Tease. Isn't that keyword spamming?
Joe.
It depends on Mark/Guy's relationship. If it was a casual, free info, type, Mark had no obligation. If their relationship was closer, then he should have given him his thoughts.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
They would have to be pretty close to justify a perceived 70K gift, right?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Several weeks have passed. Mark has sent his 1813 half eagle to both major grading services. Both have bodybagged the coin for "Altered Surfaces". (In fact, the entire coin was probably very lightly whizzed.) Although Mark still thinks the coin looks great, he realizes that he made a big mistake paying 30K for the coin. He now has many options, including the following:
1. Accept that he made a mistake and sell the coin for what it is, a 20K+ loss.
2. Try to return the coin to Guy for a full or partial refund.
3. Without saying what the coin graded, tell Guy a story about needing money. Consign the coin back to Guy and let him try to sell it to the original "customer back home".
4. Put the coin in an auction, raw, hoping that someone else will make the same mistake.
5. Send the coin to ACG with a required "minimum grade" of MS 65.
What should Mark do?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Cameron Kiefer
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Tom
I think he should go back to Guy. Although Guy did not represent (or know) the nature of the coin he was selling, he should bear the repsonsibility of sharing in the losses. I dont think this would happen in reality, so auctioning it would be the best way to recoup the most money.
Did it ever occur to Mark that the coin may not be slabbed for a reason? Certainly a coin worth that much money is worthy of the grading fee.
WWQ
I am suspicious however that Guy might have taken Mark for ride here, knowing that the coin was very deceptively doctored and that it looked better than a $30K coin. Now I know that some dealers take the attitude that they will not sell a doctored coin to a collector without disclosure but when it comes to other dealers a different set of rules apply. Dealers are supposed to be experts who can protect themselves and if they can't they will either learn from their mistakes or leave the trade. If that is the case, and Guy stiffs Mark, Mark will have to decide whether to eat the loss or try to pass it on to an innocent party.
If he decides on the latter, the auction route is best where it would be offered "as is" without warranty other than perhaps a refund right if it is not genuine. The sticky part is how will it be described and graded in the catalog?
CG
I didn't feel Guy owed it to his good retail customer to take the coin back home and show it to him, unless they had somekind of an arrangement, like a deposit to assure first right of refusal. Afterall, Guy could take the coin home and "maybe" he was going to get the $5,000 profit on the consignment coin. Or, he could sell the consignment coin to Mark right then and he was SURE to make the $5,000 profit. Me? I like the sure thing everytime. I'm hoping Guy didn't know the coin was lightly whizzed, though that might be where the story goes.
I believe Guy will consign the coin to an auction house. Like someone else said, let the buyer beware.
Now, one option Andy did not provide is for Mark to simply leave the coin raw, and find another Mark to sell the coin to. However, this may cause a problem for him down the road as far as the acution route if he "burns" it trying to sell it outright again by finding another like himself.
Absent using the above mentioned option, I suspect he would go to auction with it. Going back to Guy is not an option...in my book anyway. I assume here, and one has to make several assumptions along the way here, that Guy did not "set" Mark up from the get-go.
I don't like option 3 because Mark would knowingly be passing along a problem coin to a client.....granted not his client...but a person he knows has a sincere interest in the coin. One could argue that for Mark to place the coin at auction he would be doing the same thing, but there is a real difference in that at auction the bidder is choosing to bid where offering the coin to an interested client makes him captive.....a subtle difference but one I think is very important....to me anyway.
Neat thread Andy....however I do agree with whomever suggested posting the different chapters to separate threads.
Mike Printz
My Site
*Edited for spelling....hate that!!
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
Are you saying that if it were you that were out $30k, you would chalk it up to a bad experience?
I dont think so. JMHO
WWQ
Glenn
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
If I were to buy a 30k coin I sure as heck would not have missed that it was whizzed and yes I would have chalked it up to experience. I assume you would not. Now what would I do with it? auctiontime!
It`s always someone elses mistake, why should nice-dealer Mark take the hit?
came out ahead in not being offered a whizzed coin. The weasel Mark got screwed to the wall.
Guy is laughing all the way to the bank.
Everything worked out right for all the wrong reasons. By the way this appeares to be the
Socratic method of teaching Ethics 101. Well done Andy.
Camelot
However, I reserve the right to equivicate, or state that my views were taken out of context.
I could even plead diminished capacity as a defense.
Camelot
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Chapter 3 will be posted tomorrow evening as a new thread.
Until then, oh well...
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Why would Guy WANT to share the loss? Or you are saying that Guy is somehow compelled to share the loss? If so, why???
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
And to some of you... why is it wrong for Mark to try and buy a coin that may upgrade? Why is Mark the weasel? Dont we all try to buy coins that look great and may upgrade?
I think this might even turn out that Guy is the weasel. But we will see.
Cant wait for Chapter III
WWQ
That doesn't answer the question. WHY should he have to take it back?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Does that answer the question?
WWQ
Now that he knows of the coins problems, he should also tell the auction company so it can be properly sold.. It is he right way to do it. Like when I get a bodybagged coin back from PCGS. I sell it on ebay, but I sell it as a body bagged coin and feel obligated to do so. Some may not agree, but that is what I feel is right.
Why should Guy take the coin back? The answer depends on the standard of ethics among dealers in inter-dealer transactions. Is it that each dealer must stand on his own feet and if he buys a whizzed coin from another dealer he is stuck with the loss? Or is it that if a dealer sells another dealer a doctored coin without disclosure and at a price that is way above the price of a doctored coin he should take it back or share in the loss?
And what was the business relationship between the two dealers? If they did a lot of deals together, Guy might want to help bail out Mark to preserve their business relationship, because he can be sure that Mark is not going to deal with him again after this unless he can convince Mark that he was also clueless that the coin was doctored.
Of course if Guy knew the coin was doctored then he was screwing Mark. But even then he might take the coin back or share the loss if he is called on it, just so that word does not get around that he is a sleeze bag. Kind of the old Hollywood concept that if you don't live up to a hand shake agreement "you never work in this town again." Works in the diamond business too, or at least it used to.
A legalistic way to look at it is whether there is an implied warranty of merchantability. Does the UCC exclude transactions between coin dealers? Or is there a trade custom that says there are no implied warranties in inter-dealer transactions?
CG
The consigner doesn't owe anybody. Dealer #1 doesn't owe Dealer #2 anything. Dealer #2 swung for the fences and struck out. Expensive lesson learned.
If I were Dealer #2 I'd send the coin to a major auction house and let the chips fall where they may. He may recoup some of his investment, miraculously make a ton of $$$, or lose his arse. That's what happens when you play high stakes poker.
He then pressures Guy to sell it to him, thinking it might be a 65.
Now Mark gets burned? Somehow I don't think so for long!
my hotels
CG
Got quoins?
NOTHING was represented. In fact, Guy asked Mark for HIS opinion. That very fact implies that even if Guy had offered his own opinion as to the coins quality and/or value, his opinion should not and could not be relied upon.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Hell, no! We're at least a couple of weeks away from "there". Don't say I didn't warn you!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.