I do business with several dealers who typically list coins at much higher than they are willing to sell them for. I would not find it unusual for such a dealer who lists a coin for $1,800 to sell it to me for $1,000, and still make a profit. I would not consider it an obvious error when I buy for 1/2 of list. If I am discussing such a coin with a principal of the company who has coin in hand and we do a deal it would consider it sold. If I am talking to a clerk that's different. Usually, clerks do not have power to negotiate. I always ask for a principal when buying or selling a coin. Otherwise, I never understand the deal to be final until I have it delivered to me with a receipt.
If after dealing with a principal, he calls me back and says he made an error, I would consider an adjustment if I can. That may not always be possible. For example, say I have resold it in the meantime. Only twice did I ever get such a request. I already told the story of the first. In the second case the dealer did not try to DK the deal. They simply called, explained the issuse and offered to repurchase the coin at a higher price than I just paid, totally at my option. In that case, I still wanted the coin, wanted to maintain a good relationship, and agreed to reprice at dealer's cost. Now they didn't complain, didn't DK the deal, didn't refuse to ship (and in fact shipped next day delivery), and didn't repost the piece without calling me. That's a dealer I respect and continue to do a lot of business with.
Cal Gold:
Now this is not a DLRC flame. Sorry if anyone thinks it is. John was honest enough to publically state DLRC's policy, and I respect that. I did not know the DLRC policy before John's post. I will decide if I can continue to buy from DLRC knowing the policy. John stated publically, that if I don't agree with the policy that I should not buy from them. I also appreciate that honest response, and will decide how to proceed. It may well turn out that I will not be able to buy directly from DLRC in the future, and that's OK. For example, if I get a verbal done deal from John or Win, it is conceivable though unlikely that I could turn around and resell it. Then if I don't get delivery I would be stuck having to make delivery. A small problem to be sure, but possible. My guess is that I would continue to buy from DLRC but indirectly rather than directly.
Greg- Please accept my apology then as I misinterpreted what you wrote. As to your question concerning how I would respond if I dealt with you directly and made a mistake in pricing. That would depend on how much we are talking about and how well we know each other from past dealings. In your case, I would not bother to inform you of the error unless it was a substantial one. As a buyer in a transaction, I do not hold others responsible for errors in pricing and will let someone out of a deal for a pricing error as long as I have not already sold the coin. Shows can be very hectic and by the end of a show where I have been getting no more than a few hours of sleep a night, pricing errors can and have happened to me. I would not want to be stuck for a large loss on a pricing error and would not do so to to another individual. To me it is a simple matter of treating others as I would like to be treated. Though many of you think that this is a foreign concept to the coin business, I have found many people to deal with that subscribe to this philosophy and stay clear of those that don't.
Sounds like you want to be an arb. If thats the case, you can use a written purchase agreement so that at least you will have some legal recourse if the seller defaults. I realize that could be cumbersome but if you want protection that's the way to go. Otherwise just broker the deal so that you don't make a firm commitment to sell.
despite everything else that's been said, if i had been told by david-lawrence that the price was misquoted, i would've let them off the hook, & it likely would not prevent my being a continuing customer. i just think that dlrc should not have "forced" the customer to take the higher price. they should have waited for the customer to say "i understand your mistake, no problem, i'll pass for now", or accepted the lumps
I'm at a show, and I stop by your table. You have a common Morgan with $100 retail on it sitting right at the front. I hesitate, since I can't spend that much.
You insist and show it to me anyway.
I say, "Great coin, but I only have $30 to spend today."
You say, "I'll take $30 for this coin."
I suspect this coin would bring more than $30 on E-bay, but hey you are the dealer with a table and if you say $30 then who am I to argue. I plunk $30 cash on the table and leave with the coin.
If I understand some of you correctly, I should leave the show immediately. You may decide that I ripped you off. You might confront me and demand more money. After all you are in business for profit, but it's only a hobby to me.
I'm glad this thread happened, because I promise you, I don't want to do business with you.
Sounds like we have a similar outlook. As sellers we accept responsibility for our errors if we need to. As buyers we try to allow others to correct errors if at all possible.
Let me ask what you think of the instant case. An expert professional employee of the firm cut a deal and accepted payment. Later the dealer realized he made about a $750 error. Without confirming that his clerk contacted the customer he DKed the deal and relisted it. The customer only discovered the problem when he did not get the coin, saw it relisted and called himself. The dealer states his policy is that he is allowed to DK trades if he makes an error. He states he made a mistake by not contacting the customer but stands by his action and policy. I respect the dealer and his honesty, but wonder whether I should continue to buy from him. After all how do I know whether I really bought a coin. Perhaps I am giving up an opportunity at another dealer. Usually, the hot coins only last a short time. If I buy from A and give up a piece at B, it may be too late to get B's piece if A DKs a few days later. What would you do with respect to this dealer?
Example, I have been looking for a 20th Century proof Morgan in high grade for months. I learn from a top collector that a dealer just got one. I contact the dealer before it is even listed and do a deal at what I think is a fair price. Next day the coin is DKed without my knowledge (this didn't really happen, the deal was fine). Coin is relisted and someone else gets it. Perhaps I lose the chance to buy a second one offered through another dealer.
Recently, there was a thread dealing with a disagreement between Quattrocoins and WhiteWashQtr. Quattrocoins was quoted a price, sent payment, payment was confirmed and check deposited. Coin was to be mailed after the check cleared. In the check clearing period a like-kind coin traded on Ebay for quite a bit more money and Whitewashqtr asked for more money. Virtually everyone here felt Whitewashqtr was in the wrong for asking for a higher price.
Jadecoin, you have sold coins and bought from yourself under four different usernames on EBay. This last one you point out is new started less than six months ago. You have been doing business for several years on EBay and constantly change your seller ID. Why is that?
<< <i>Jadecoin, you have sold coins and bought from yourself under four different usernames on EBay. This last one you point out is new started less than six months ago. You have been doing business for several years on EBay and constantly change your seller ID. Why is that? >>
Pretty strong accusations there, Mr. Banker. I certainly hope you have some substantial and confirmed proof. I didn't think so.
Here is just an example. If you look up jadecoin on EBay, you will see where jadecoin (under a different name which was later merged with jadecoin) left themselves feedback, right after they left themselves feedback under the name jadecoins (with an "s"). This is self dealing at its finest, and not the only EBay seller names they have used. Right now, they are using "Early US".
Feedback for jadecoin:
jadecoin(367) Not a registered user Apr-26-99 08:23:59 PST 91488600 Feedback merged Praise : SUPERIOR customer, extraordinary coin savvy, a definite pleasure to deal with
jadecoins(70) Apr-26-99 03:43:25 PST 91488600 Praise : Top gentleman, scholar, businessman. Much depth/breadth of numismatic knowledge!
Greg- As I stated in my last post, I try to stick to doing business to those dealers and collectors that I consider of high integrity. John at David Lawrence is high on my list of people that I will do business with. He goes out of his way to try and be fair to all that he deals with and his business has had tremendous growth because of this philosophy. We all have bad days and make errors in judgement calls. Do I think that this deal headed down that path? Yes. In this case, an error in pricing was compounded with a judgement call error that resulted in one very irrate customer. I also believe that John has now spoken to Mark and worked out a deal where both of them are now happy. We all make mistakes. I believe that INTENT is the important thing to be examined when all is said and done. In this case, there was no intent to deceive or defraud and those that see either in this instance have a very warped sense of reality.
Hi, this is Dennis from Jade Coin. I am in our Michigan office and James is in our Missouri office. James made the last post on this topic. I think that he is not at his computer, otherwise he would have responded to the rather inconsiderate and heedless accusations being bantered about by DMWJR. Before we suffer any damage from DMWJR's libelous writing, I thought that I would answer his questions regarding ebay.
DMWJR, you are correct that our company has had a few different ebay handles over the past few years. The reason is that James and I each had our own ebay handles prior to forming a company. Actually, James and I have known each other since the 1st grade. We collected coins together all the way through the 12th grade and lost touch when we went to separate colleges. We "bumped into" each other by accident on ebay back in 1999. It's a true story that we will someday put on our website. I was "mistert5" on ebay and James was "wildorchid" on ebay, or something similar to that. His car at the time was purple or wild orchid in color at that time, hence the name on ebay. We actually bought from each other, which is how we reconnected after so many years.
Eventually we decided to meet at a Chicago area show for a formal reunion and we started buying and selling coins together. Rather quickly, we decided that we should start a coin company. We formed Jade Coin Co, LLC in 1999. James came up with the name: "JA" for James and "DE" for Dennis. It could have been "Deja Coin Co", but that had a funny ring to it.. We merged our personal collections together to form our initial stock. It was a very modest and unpretentious inventory, to say the least!
We each decided to change our ebay handles to market our company. As I recall, we were each jadecoin or jadecoins or something similar to that for a short period, but after we joined forces we NEVER bid on each other's coins. Eventually we decided that looked suspicious so we finally convinced ebay to merge our accounts in order to benefit from the increased feedback, since we both had flawless 100% positive feedback. When ebay handles are merged, it goes back through all previous transactions and updates to the new name. That's why it looks like "jadecoin" won a coin from "jadecoins". First of all, this transaction that you cite was prior to us joining together. Secondly, do you really think that we would bid on a jadecoin account with a "secret" ebay account called jadecoins?
Regarding our current ebay handle, we are now "earlyus". Last year (don't remember exactly) we decided that ebay was less than profitable for us, so we made a business decision to focus our sales efforts on the coin show circuit and through our newly developed web site. We unregistered with ebay. We changed our web site address from www.cjade.com to www.earlyus.com as a way of more accurately describing our core line of business; early US coinage.
Business has flourished for us and, through the course of improved business, we are receiving more and more opportunities to purchase foreign and US coins and currency. Most of the material that we purchase does not match our core competency; choice early American coins and currency. Just a matter of 4 or 5 months ago, we decided that we needed an outlet to sell such numismatic items that were not "right" for our display case or web site. Therefore, we both decided to return to ebay as a way of liquidating our excess stock of modern coins or coins that were less than perfect. Check our current and past listings and you will see what I mean. We have actually lost money on ebay in past few months, since we have REAL 1 cent/no reserve auctions. We have purchase receipts that you can compare to our ebay sales as proof. Furthermore, I can connect you with other dealers who have sold us coins that we dumped on ebay and received less than what we paid. The goal for using ebay is to quickly move inventory so that we can put that money into higher grade early material. I suppose that we could have re-registered our old ebay handle with ebay, but it was very difficult to get our feedback merged in the beginning and we were told that ebay was tightening it's rules regarding the merging of accounts. The earlyus account on ebay was set-up strictly to move coins that did not fit into our main inventory very well, so feedback was a secondary concern for us.
DMWJR, are you the one who sent us threatening email messages and left a couple of unfriendly voicemail messages last year? Please call me at 616-901-4681 if you would like to talk in a friendly manner. We joined the forum to discuss coins, not to defend ourselves from false accusations. We have no complaints from any of our customers and I am confused as to why someone, whom is not a customer, such as yourself, would go out of your way to attempt to harm us.
Just for the record if anybody accidently makes a mistake when quoting me a price for a coin I will never hold you to it. If you misread the bid sheet when pricing a coin and I catch it I will tell you everytime. Last month I bought a 1938 proof half from a local coin store. When I got home I got a call saying they misquoted me by $200. They left it up to me what to do so I looked at the coin and it was still worth paying the extra $200. I sent them a check. It's hard enough to survive in business without having to be forced to pay for honest mistakes.
Last week I bought 700 circ dollars from Dallas Gold And Silver. When I counted them there were 800 coins. I called him and told him. In this example it's black and white about what the right thing to do is. Guy made an honest mistake and keeping the 100 extra coins would be stealing them. To me forcing someone to sell something when they made a mistake is just another form of stealing.
Now to be clear if a dealer sells me a coin for one grade and I think it's a higher grade that's a whole different situation and I won't pay more for it or say anything. That's a difference of opinion.
Just a quick comment on Mark's statement that there was no contract because there was no meeting of the minds. While its true that a mutual mistake of the parties (one in which both parties have a misunderstanding of an essential term of the contract) will void a contract, a unilateral mistake, such as DLRCs will not. Absent very special circumstances, a court will uphold a contract where one party has made a mistake, particularly when that party had the responsibility and opportunity to protect him or herself.
Comments
I do business with several dealers who typically list coins at much higher than they are willing to sell them for. I would not find it unusual for such a dealer who lists a coin for $1,800 to sell it to me for $1,000, and still make a profit. I would not consider it an obvious error when I buy for 1/2 of list. If I am discussing such a coin with a principal of the company who has coin in hand and we do a deal it would consider it sold. If I am talking to a clerk that's different. Usually, clerks do not have power to negotiate. I always ask for a principal when buying or selling a coin. Otherwise, I never understand the deal to be final until I have it delivered to me with a receipt.
If after dealing with a principal, he calls me back and says he made an error, I would consider an adjustment if I can. That may not always be possible. For example, say I have resold it in the meantime. Only twice did I ever get such a request. I already told the story of the first. In the second case the dealer did not try to DK the deal. They simply called, explained the issuse and offered to repurchase the coin at a higher price than I just paid, totally at my option. In that case, I still wanted the coin, wanted to maintain a good relationship, and agreed to reprice at dealer's cost. Now they didn't complain, didn't DK the deal, didn't refuse to ship (and in fact shipped next day delivery), and didn't repost the piece without calling me. That's a dealer I respect and continue to do a lot of business with.
Cal Gold:
Now this is not a DLRC flame. Sorry if anyone thinks it is. John was honest enough to publically state DLRC's policy, and I respect that. I did not know the DLRC policy before John's post. I will decide if I can continue to buy from DLRC knowing the policy. John stated publically, that if I don't agree with the policy that I should not buy from them. I also appreciate that honest response, and will decide how to proceed. It may well turn out that I will not be able to buy directly from DLRC in the future, and that's OK. For example, if I get a verbal done deal from John or Win, it is conceivable though unlikely that I could turn around and resell it. Then if I don't get delivery I would be stuck having to make delivery. A small problem to be sure, but possible. My guess is that I would continue to buy from DLRC but indirectly rather than directly.
GReg
As a buyer in a transaction, I do not hold others responsible for errors in pricing and will let someone out of a deal for a pricing error as long as I have not already sold the coin. Shows can be very hectic and by the end of a show where I have been getting no more than a few hours of sleep a night, pricing errors can and have happened to me. I would not want to be stuck for a large loss on a pricing error and would not do so to to another individual. To me it is a simple matter of treating others as I would like to be treated. Though many of you think that this is a foreign concept to the coin business, I have found many people to deal with that subscribe to this philosophy and stay clear of those that don't.
Sounds like you want to be an arb. If thats the case, you can use a written purchase agreement so that at least you will have some legal recourse if the seller defaults. I realize that could be cumbersome but if you want protection that's the way to go. Otherwise just broker the deal so that you don't make a firm commitment to sell.
CG
K S
I'm at a show, and I stop by your table. You have a common Morgan with $100 retail on it sitting right at the front. I hesitate, since I can't spend that much.
You insist and show it to me anyway.
I say, "Great coin, but I only have $30 to spend today."
You say, "I'll take $30 for this coin."
I suspect this coin would bring more than $30 on E-bay, but hey you are the dealer with a table and if you say $30 then who am I to argue. I plunk $30 cash on the table and leave with the coin.
If I understand some of you correctly, I should leave the show immediately. You may decide that I ripped you off. You might confront me and demand more money. After all you are in business for profit, but it's only a hobby to me.
I'm glad this thread happened, because I promise you, I don't want to do business with you.
Sounds like we have a similar outlook. As sellers we accept responsibility for our errors if we need to. As buyers we try to allow others to correct errors if at all possible.
Let me ask what you think of the instant case. An expert professional employee of the firm cut a deal and accepted payment. Later the dealer realized he made about a $750 error. Without confirming that his clerk contacted the customer he DKed the deal and relisted it. The customer only discovered the problem when he did not get the coin, saw it relisted and called himself. The dealer states his policy is that he is allowed to DK trades if he makes an error. He states he made a mistake by not contacting the customer but stands by his action and policy. I respect the dealer and his honesty, but wonder whether I should continue to buy from him. After all how do I know whether I really bought a coin. Perhaps I am giving up an opportunity at another dealer. Usually, the hot coins only last a short time. If I buy from A and give up a piece at B, it may be too late to get B's piece if A DKs a few days later. What would you do with respect to this dealer?
Example, I have been looking for a 20th Century proof Morgan in high grade for months. I learn from a top collector that a dealer just got one. I contact the dealer before it is even listed and do a deal at what I think is a fair price. Next day the coin is DKed without my knowledge (this didn't really happen, the deal was fine). Coin is relisted and someone else gets it. Perhaps I lose the chance to buy a second one offered through another dealer.
Greg
LINK
I fail to see the difference. Once you confirm a price and accept the credit card payment, then the deal is done.
Jadecoin: Don't be so ignorant.
Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3 be sure to read this one
<< <i>Jadecoin, you have sold coins and bought from yourself under four different usernames on EBay. This last one you point out is new started less than six months ago. You have been doing business for several years on EBay and constantly change your seller ID. Why is that? >>
Pretty strong accusations there, Mr. Banker. I certainly hope you have some substantial and confirmed proof. I didn't think so.
Feedback for jadecoin:
jadecoin(367) Not a registered user Apr-26-99 08:23:59 PST 91488600
Feedback merged
Praise : SUPERIOR customer, extraordinary coin savvy, a definite pleasure to deal with
jadecoins(70) Apr-26-99 03:43:25 PST 91488600
Praise : Top gentleman, scholar, businessman. Much depth/breadth of numismatic knowledge!
Anyone care to explain this to me?
We all make mistakes. I believe that INTENT is the important thing to be examined when all is said and done. In this case, there was no intent to deceive or defraud and those that see either in this instance have a very warped sense of reality.
DMWJR, you are correct that our company has had a few different ebay handles over the past few years. The reason is that James and I each had our own ebay handles prior to forming a company. Actually, James and I have known each other since the 1st grade. We collected coins together all the way through the 12th grade and lost touch when we went to separate colleges. We "bumped into" each other by accident on ebay back in 1999. It's a true story that we will someday put on our website. I was "mistert5" on ebay and James was "wildorchid" on ebay, or something similar to that. His car at the time was purple or wild orchid in color at that time, hence the name on ebay. We actually bought from each other, which is how we reconnected after so many years.
Eventually we decided to meet at a Chicago area show for a formal reunion and we started buying and selling coins together. Rather quickly, we decided that we should start a coin company. We formed Jade Coin Co, LLC in 1999. James came up with the name: "JA" for James and "DE" for Dennis. It could have been "Deja Coin Co", but that had a funny ring to it.
We each decided to change our ebay handles to market our company. As I recall, we were each jadecoin or jadecoins or something similar to that for a short period, but after we joined forces we NEVER bid on each other's coins. Eventually we decided that looked suspicious so we finally convinced ebay to merge our accounts in order to benefit from the increased feedback, since we both had flawless 100% positive feedback. When ebay handles are merged, it goes back through all previous transactions and updates to the new name. That's why it looks like "jadecoin" won a coin from "jadecoins". First of all, this transaction that you cite was prior to us joining together. Secondly, do you really think that we would bid on a jadecoin account with a "secret" ebay account called jadecoins?
Regarding our current ebay handle, we are now "earlyus". Last year (don't remember exactly) we decided that ebay was less than profitable for us, so we made a business decision to focus our sales efforts on the coin show circuit and through our newly developed web site. We unregistered with ebay. We changed our web site address from www.cjade.com to www.earlyus.com as a way of more accurately describing our core line of business; early US coinage.
Business has flourished for us and, through the course of improved business, we are receiving more and more opportunities to purchase foreign and US coins and currency. Most of the material that we purchase does not match our core competency; choice early American coins and currency. Just a matter of 4 or 5 months ago, we decided that we needed an outlet to sell such numismatic items that were not "right" for our display case or web site. Therefore, we both decided to return to ebay as a way of liquidating our excess stock of modern coins or coins that were less than perfect. Check our current and past listings and you will see what I mean. We have actually lost money on ebay in past few months, since we have REAL 1 cent/no reserve auctions. We have purchase receipts that you can compare to our ebay sales as proof. Furthermore, I can connect you with other dealers who have sold us coins that we dumped on ebay and received less than what we paid. The goal for using ebay is to quickly move inventory so that we can put that money into higher grade early material. I suppose that we could have re-registered our old ebay handle with ebay, but it was very difficult to get our feedback merged in the beginning and we were told that ebay was tightening it's rules regarding the merging of accounts. The earlyus account on ebay was set-up strictly to move coins that did not fit into our main inventory very well, so feedback was a secondary concern for us.
DMWJR, are you the one who sent us threatening email messages and left a couple of unfriendly voicemail messages last year? Please call me at 616-901-4681 if you would like to talk in a friendly manner. We joined the forum to discuss coins, not to defend ourselves from false accusations. We have no complaints from any of our customers and I am confused as to why someone, whom is not a customer, such as yourself, would go out of your way to attempt to harm us.
Now, let's get back to coins!!
Dennis
jade Coin Co.
That is a nice attempt to shift attention away from yourself, but wrong.
Libelous? Wrong again.
Looks like I'll have to defend myself. Stay tuned.
Looks like I'll have to defend myself. Stay tuned.
No disrespect intended, but how about doing the former and sparing us the latter........
Please.
Last week I bought 700 circ dollars from Dallas Gold And Silver. When I counted them there were 800 coins. I called him and told him. In this example it's black and white about what the right thing to do is. Guy made an honest mistake and keeping the 100 extra coins would be stealing them. To me forcing someone to sell something when they made a mistake is just another form of stealing.
Now to be clear if a dealer sells me a coin for one grade and I think it's a higher grade that's a whole different situation and I won't pay more for it or say anything. That's a difference of opinion.
Good answer, I agree with your approach. I hope we get to do more business.
HERE