Are Wannabe's the Wave of the Future?

tradedollarnut · February 24, 2003 10:49PM

Seems to me that there are more and more part time dealers. Slabbing, the internet and growing personal wealth has allowed interested people to open a website, purchase coins they like and sit on them until the right buyer comes along. This can be quite lucrative - high margins, low overhead & not being forced to sell cheap because you're not relying on the cashflow to make a living.

Is this a good thing? I can see positives and negatives - what say you?

MadMarty · February 24, 2003 10:51PM

Nice supplement for unemployment for me!!!

Petescorner · February 24, 2003 10:56PM

I don't understand why certain dealers get so bent out of shape over collectors who want to be part time dealers. If their service really has the value that they preach, then customers will be willing to pay for it. If not, then tuff luck. That's what's great about living in a free market society.

dorkkarl · February 24, 2003 10:57PM

yes.

unfortunately, yes.

K S

jbsteven · February 24, 2003 11:02PM

I fall into the part time dealer category and can say at least for the full time dealers it is a bad thing. There is a finite amount of coin purchases out there (it is a large number but there is also a large amount of people buying coins) and when you split those purchases more times it becomes less income for the full time dealers. Of course certain dealers do not have to worry about this as they sell higher end or very specialized material that the average part time dealer cannot afford or find.

For the part time dealers it is something to do that they can make a few bucks at if they buy the right material and market it properly. I like it as a way to do something I enjoy and can make a few bucks also. The making money is secondary at this point. As long as I am not throwing money away then I like it and will continue to do it.

sinin1 · February 24, 2003 11:10PM

There are many fields that have wannabe's - many people turn their hobbies into part-time enterprises (mainly because they have not figured out how to make enough doing it to be full-time).

If you mention wannabe's in a derogatory tone, it will affend me and most of the people on the board because WE resemble that remark.

The internet has definitely opened up avenues for wannabe's, but I am sure there have been weekend coin dealers for over 100 years.

The price is very high for the couple hundred dealers who have a circuit to the major shows around the country (and world), as I am sure you are well aware of.

dwood · February 24, 2003 11:12PM

At one point, every dealer here was a wannabe. So I certainly hope wannabes are stroked, coddled, and molded by the "legitimate dealers."

RKKay · February 24, 2003 11:14PM

I agree with jbsteven wholeheartedly. For me, it's about getting to own some of the great patterns, if even for a brief time. It also allows me the opportunity to meet other people with the same interests and help them find some really nice patterns. It also gives other pattern dealers more business for two reasons: 1) They may not have otherwise have contact with some people I sell to; and 2) I am willing to spend more money for "inventory" so I can own some of these coins, whether it be temporary or permanent.

paigowjohnny · February 25, 2003 1:05AM

I like part time dealers !! I've done deals with 2 of our board members....jbsteven and Sarasota Frank...who I guess would now fall in the definition of part time dealers, and I was very satisfied. Competition is a healthy thing in a capitalistic society...but as always it's caveat emptor.

Baley · February 25, 2003 1:09AM

I'm with dwood on this one... didn't every "real" dealer start out as a "wannabe"??

some of these newer ones will fade away, some will stay small time, and some will grow.

when, in any industry, has this ever been a bad thing?

I mean for the industry as a whole, not for the currently big dealers who may lose some business edge to more nimble newcomers

Lakesammman · February 25, 2003 1:29AM

Ahhh....so that's the trick...sit on them until the right buyer comes along.......thanks for the tip!

Competition is good for any industry. If the full time dealers want my business, show me where the value was added. 2 of my last 3 purchases were private party transactions. They were great coins that sold themselves and didn't need a dealer markup.

The challenge of the future will be for the full time dealers to show what value was added by them.

dorkkarl · February 25, 2003 1:40AM

<< <i>I like part time dealers !! I've done deals with 2 of our board members....jbsteven and Sarasota Frank...who I guess would now fall in the definition of part time dealers >>

i would not agree. if a collector happens to sell or trade some of his coins, it doesn't suddenly make him a "part-time dealer" or "dealer wannabe". are they reporting this as income? legally incorporated? etc. etc.

i can't give a good def'n for a "dealer wannabe", but i recognize it when i see it.

K S

Bear · February 25, 2003 1:46AM

If a part time dealer carves a nich in specific areas of collecting ,then they have the

expert knowledge I seek. But for big dollar purchases, I want a dealer who can grade quality

and who has a rounded knowledge of the coin industry and especially classic coins. When I was

collecting Proof Deep Cameo wash and Kennedies I also went to dealers specializing in those

series. I also bought some wonderful Kennedies from Board members selling their duplicates.

Coinland is big enough to accommodate all who are honest, sincere and caring about what they

do and the people they sell to.

MadMarty · February 25, 2003 1:46AM

Wouldn't every board member who sells coins on E-Bay kinda be "A Part Time Dealer"??? I find it alot of fun to buy a coffee can collection and find something really good in it!!!

bulloncoins · February 25, 2003 2:00AM

As a new collector I have no interest at this point in selling any of my coins. I do read with interest the various post about the mom and pop dealers. I live down the street from a very big dealer here in Houston, who is listed as a PCGS authorized dealer.

When I enter, I have to be buzzed in like I was going into a Beverly Hills jewlery store. The people inside have been anything but overly friendly to me.

When I puchased my $8.00+ eagles, they put them into $1.80 airtites for me (without using gloves) and sent me on my way. I come home and find the same coins selling for $6.50+or- on Ebay. The airtites can be puchased 25 for $9.95 BIN.

Now I'm sure some people have the pleasure of walking into a little store where the bell rings when you open the door and the owner invites you in to chat over a cup of coffee and see his new wares. I'm also sure if I were buying $50.00 AGE's or $100.00 APE's these folks would be a lot friendlier.

So I'm for the internet , weekend trader/collector....Those other guys well....we just don't relate too well

dpoole · February 25, 2003 2:01AM

I dunno if it's a "good" thing or a "bad" thing. It's definitely an "is" thing, though. The Internet and Ebay mean that everybody with a computer and online connection has immediate access to everybody else in the world with those resources. Things have changed permanently and forever.

Whether this means that dealers with overhead are in trouble, only time will tell. I suspect, though, that those with reputations for integrity, customer service, prompt shipping and good product will always have a vibrant and important place in the market. For may of us, working with a professional who knows the market, knows the coins, travels and prescreens, are very important and helpful services that most "wannabes" may not be able or interested in providing.

dorkkarl · February 25, 2003 2:17AM

<< <i>Wouldn't every board member who sells coins on E-Bay kinda be "A Part Time Dealer"??? >>

imo, no. maybe a couple, but generally, no. they're just collectors w/ a desire to sell excess coins.

K S

Singapore · February 25, 2003 3:04AM

The little guy has an advantage in my opinion as he doesn't have the overhead to support. Plus 3rd party grading means 'reputation in the biz' doesn't matter as much.

So why should I buy from Bowers with their big mark-up instead of Heritage with their 15% mark up instead of Joe Vest-Pocket with his mini-mark-up? And why shouldn't I try to be JVP and try my luck.

I've actually done a bit of it myself - its not hard, its entertaining and its been pretty lucrative so far. So what the heck -

Clankeye · February 25, 2003 3:16AM

<< <i>imo, no. maybe a couple, but generally, no. they're just collectors w/ a desire to sell excess coins. >>

That certainly describes me, Karl. It can be entertaining. But, I don't do it with any delusions of being a coin dealer. I just like the option it gives me of getting a decent price for the coins I sell to buy more coins. Especially when the few local dealers have not been too anxious to give up resonable money for even a very nice coin.

I like passing a coin on to collectors, sometimes you get to share their enthusiam, which can be a lot of fun.

Clankeye

keoj · February 25, 2003 3:19AM

Given the fact that some dealers don't want to take trade-ins, isn't this a natural outcome that some people will sell their own coins?

Dog97 · February 25, 2003 3:48AM

TDN-
As long as I get my right coin at the right price I don't care if the seller is a wannabe dealer or a million dollar dealer.
As a collector this a good thing to me.
I can see where the do-it-yourself sellers are taking a lot of $$ out of the full time dealer's pockets especially hurting the mom&pop dealers with their common and semi-rare material.
The owners of the famous collections with the true great high priced rarities don't do the do-it-yourself eBay thing though. They let, for example, dealers like Legend or Pinnacle and auction houses like Stacks, B&M and others do the dirty work for them. I don't see this class of dealer going broke because of the internet. Wannabe dealers have little affect this class of dealers & collectors.

ponzi187 · February 25, 2003 4:15AM

I live in Brooklyn were the hard sell -ahem- is the law of the land...I do not feel comfortable in coin stores here which are more like pawn shops than what one would expect from a mom and pop suburban joint...I also cant get coins in Manhattan as that market is dominated by Stacks and the big auction houses and my requests for low ms60's common date morgans are the equivilant of ordering a cheese burger in Paris...So it is the internet for me...where no one is pressuring me to buy PVC flips(coin killers) at 9 dollars per 100 just because they have boxes of them lying around....

Long live the Wannabe and those who are trying to get their Ebay rating up!

RotatedRainbows · February 25, 2003 4:32AM

Why shouldn't the collector cut out the middle man and sell for more then a dealer would pay him and less then the dealer would sell to the other guy for?? It benefits both parties as the buyer pays less and the collector gets more, seems like a win win situation except for the dealer who does not make money on the transaction.

RYK · April 19, 2005 8:20AM

There are now 53 threads with "Wannabe" in the title. Interestingly, this was the first.

Edited to add: Perhaps TDN deserves the credit (and blame

) for coining the expression (no pun intended).

ER · April 19, 2005 8:26AM

Whatever happened to Dog97 anyway? Last visit 1/31/05.

Russ · April 19, 2005 8:28AM

RYK,

You're a troublemaker.

Russ, NCNE

markglicker · April 19, 2005 8:30AM

It is a positive for the collector. The more dealers, the tighter the spreads on the coins traded.

morgannut2 · April 19, 2005 8:37AM

I wish I could be tied into a dealer part time like TDN!! I really do have some nice coins that I auction to buy others--and I'm a little tired of paying auctions 15% and more to sell really high-end original coins. I wouldn't mind waiting if I could pay a smaller percent as a part-timer, minority stock owner of a dealer.

RYK · April 19, 2005 8:40AM

For may of us, working with a professional who knows the market, knows the coins, travels and prescreens, are very important and helpful services that most "wannabes" may not be able or interested in providing.

What made sense to me two years ago, still makes sense today.

I find it refreshing to see this very topic so politely discussed.

dorkkarl · April 19, 2005 8:46AM

a part-time dealer IS NOT a wannabe. legend would agree, i believe.

it would be like saying a part-time mcdonald's worker is a mcdonald's worker wannabe.

K S

DHeath · April 19, 2005 8:49AM

TDN,

I'll refrain from commenting on the other threads, but I like yours, even though its a lazerus thread. There have been a ton of posts regarding the imminent danger "wannabe dealers" pose, but not one poster considered to opportunities they represent. Although well established dealers with quality references offer a good degree of protection, in almost every circumstance, a collector buying from these dealers will pay the last dollar, as coins tend to migrate to the best buyer. I can imagine other circumstances that would tilt the advantage to the specialist/collector. JMO

RYK · April 19, 2005 8:50AM

Karl, in a previous thread (the last post of a thread I originated), you accuse Laura of steling the term, "Wannabe", from you. Link

Can you prove it?

dragon · April 19, 2005 8:58AM

<<< Is this a good thing? I can see positives and negatives - what say you? >>>

As others have mentioned, many of these 'dealers' are simply the result of an up market, and will more than likely liquidate whatever small inventory they have and fade away as the market pulls back or fails to rise further.

It's a very similar situation to the equity markets.....back in 1999-2000 there were all of a sudden a lot of 'professional' traders around and lay people who knew very little about the markets were suddenly trading internet stocks on margin. As the markets pulled back, many lost a lot of money (some even lost their houses) and faded away to return to their regular day jobs.

dorkkarl · April 19, 2005 9:01AM

<< <i>Karl, in a previous thread (the last post of a thread I originated), you accuse Laura of steling the term, "Wannabe", from you. >>

nope, but i clearly remember making that claim, maybe you woudl be able to prove it. if you go back far enough, i submit that you will find i was the 1st to use the exact term "coin dealer wannabe" on the boards.

plus, i was slamming them for basically the exact same issues legend does.

K S

dragon · April 19, 2005 9:19AM

I would also point out that coins are coins regardless of who they are purchased from. A small collector turned part-time dealer can sell you a really nice coin or a real dog....and the same holds true for the very largest of national dealers. Knowledgeable collectors could really care less where the coin comes from or who is selling it, only the quality and price point is of any consequence, not the seller.

For unsophisticated collectors/investors who rely on their sellers expertise (or lack thereof) in making purchases, a large well known dealer is NO guaranty of receiving either a premium coin or a fair price or both. Nor is it a guaranty that when that coin is eventually resold that the next person will necessarily agree with the coins desirability.

bullseye · April 19, 2005 9:31AM

Wannabes suck! Period. They cost honest people money!

busco69 · April 20, 2005 9:34AM

When I upgrade a coin in my collection to a higher grade then sell the lower grade coin dose that make me a part time dealer?If so I don't care ,I will still do it ,as this is how I upgrade my collection. Tom T. just a wannabe

prooflike · April 20, 2005 9:55AM

What about people who sometimes buy coins just to study them, and then try to sell them??

coinkat · April 20, 2005 10:04AM

This is an interesting thought and part depends on the market segment... not all of us are in a position to buy coins from Legend. Last time I looked, Legend doesn't offer much in the way of George II coinage.

My point is there is a large universe for coin collectors and some players are just catering to different collectors. For many of the coins I am seeking, Legend is just not going to have them and that is okay. On the other hand, if I was looking for a high end Proof Barber or a Proof $20 Lib, I would contact them and we would have alot to talk about. There is room here for competition and integrity.

ScarsdaleCoin · April 20, 2005 12:43PM

I usually just leave the dreaded "Wannabee" threads alone but I figured I would like to throw my 2 cents in this one time. It is very difficult for one to speak for Laura but I think her basic message in her threads is on target….I don’t feel she is putting down any part time dealer nor collector who sells a few coins on ebay. The Misinterpreted impression and feeling that I read in between the lines is that there are worms crawling out of the woodwork during the up market cycle that the coin business has seen for the past few years….. I think the warning is about certain people (sorry, but I will not names) who are placing coins into buyers hands….when the market goes back into its next phase, these "dealers" will disappear into thin air….its happened before and that is the message as I read it….again, maybe I’m reading it wrong but I think many forum members have not "got" the message and think the "Wannabee" threads are just attempts to flaunt a dealer…..Folks…if you think Laura needs to flaunt then you are just plain crazy….what she is and what she does goes without saying……personally I would rather change the name "Wannabee" to what I think a few of these people are …. Con Dealers not Coin Dealers….

Coinosaurus · April 20, 2005 1:17PM

TDN-

This is a good question. The answer is an unqualified yes. The barriers to entry are too easy. You set up a website, talk it up on the forums, rent some tables at national shows, and voila!, for a few thousand bucks (plus inventory) you too can look just like a big-time dealer without even giving up your regular day job. The neophyte on the show floor will literally not be able to tell the difference. I can understand why established folks don't like this, it just makes their job harder in the long run since they have to deal with the fallout.

On the other hand, I don't see the situation changing. The coin biz is an unregulated beast and the powers that be like it that way. If the market slows down we'll certainly see the pace of new dealers coming in slow, but it won't ever go away. TPGs and web sites level the playing field and make it very, very easy to hang out your shingle on the national scene. Many aspiring dealers will go for it, and a few will stick.

Are Wannabe's the Wave of the Future?

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