Should I tell Braddick the coin he's bidding on has been cleaned?

relayer · February 21, 2003 8:15PM

I bought this coin for $55 and spent $15 getting it body-bagged for "Cleaned or Whizzed" plus $10 betting the post office they lose it.

So I list it on ebay for face value and no reserve. And the high bidder is our own Braddick.

Rainbow Kennedy 50c

So should I share the beneficial information I paid $15 for an expert opinion with him?

And what if he bids on my other Rainbow coin?

Shield 5c Rainbow

This just came back from PCGS still in it's ANACS holder as PF 65 and did not cross over to PCGS PR65.

I paid $30 for an expert opinion - which by the way, I didn't get. All I know is it's not going to live in a PCGS PR65 holder. Should I put in the ad "PCGS did not grade this PR65" ?

IrishMike · February 21, 2003 10:00PM

I'm not sure what you are asking here, if I sent a coin in for grading and it came back cleaned or whizzed I would mention that in the sale. I wouldn't care to be known as a seller who omits material information, even if I didn't claim full disclosure in my ad. As far as PCGS not crossing a coin, hello!, is this a news flash?

Edited to add: wow that shield nickel is sweet.

agfox · February 21, 2003 10:12PM

Would you want that same honesty when you purchased the coin?

I think it's a no #$%& question, and horrible selling tatics that you didn't.

ArtR · February 21, 2003 10:20PM

As Irish Mike stated I also would have included this information in my description of the Kennedy. Always put yourself in the buyers shoes. If Braddick had put this coin up for auction and you were the winning bidder wouldn't you like to have been informed that the coin had problems.

dwood · February 21, 2003 10:35PM

BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1: No. No.
VILLAGER #2: No, it floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond! Throw her into the pond!
BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Uh, very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Uh, gra-- gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Uh, churches! Churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead! Lead!
ARTHUR: A duck!

tgilliams · February 21, 2003 10:36PM

you should have mentioned in your listing. if you did not you are being less than honest with your bidders. just like selling an acg coin x b
n ed

dwood · February 21, 2003 11:05PM

If it was cleaned, then wasn't it likely intentionally toned as well?

Keyrock · February 21, 2003 11:11PM

Personally I think it's good karma to be as honest as possible. Do you have a return policy? What if he gets it and sees that it is and you didn't disclose the information. Your credibility drops and the coins are returned etc...

Just my 2 cents

Rich

FatMan · February 21, 2003 11:58PM

You have placed yourself in the company of all the eBay scum dealers. There is no difference between what you have done here than what ASWIMMER does. It is simply deception by omission.

dwood · February 22, 2003 12:03AM

Oh there is a difference, but I won't bring it up

cosmicdebris · February 22, 2003 12:03AM

Are you implying is it ok to cheat someone you do not know but not cheat someone you do know?

dwood · February 22, 2003 12:06AM

Nope, though I can't speak for the whole forum. Actually that wasn't my inferrence, but it is an interesting consideration.

littlewicher · February 22, 2003 12:21AM

I can't believe that you didn't list it in your auction. Most forum members are trying to clean up ebay and ebay sellers. You're just making it worse. If you got the coin back from PCGS as clean/whizzed, then you should list that in your auction, even though sometimes PCGS does make mistakes once in a while.

Lakesammman · February 22, 2003 12:21AM

Tough question.

If it is cleaned/whizzed, it should be described as such. BUT, every one here has a story about PCGS BB'ing a coin and later certifying it. So, which is the truth, the BB or the subsequent certification?? I've bored you all before with the story of a IHC proof that was BB'd for being AT'd, subsequently certified and recently sold privately for $168,000. So, is it a nice coin or an AT'd rip-off??

If you KNOW it to be cleaned/whizzed or AT'd, it should be listed as such.

stujoe · February 22, 2003 12:28AM

Why do you feel you need to mention it to Braddick and not any other bidders who might see the auction or who have bid in the auction? If you feel there wasn't anything wrong with leaving it out in the first place, why should Braddick care any more than the other bidders? If you feel there is something wrong with leaving it out, what is so special about Braddick that he is the only bidder who you feel should know about it?

I would have mentioned it in the auction for all to see but that is just me.

ms71 · February 22, 2003 12:32AM

Sure, the PCGS judgement should be in the listing so everything's on the up-and-up. You can' figure that the very low starting bid is an implicit statement that there's a problem - some big-bucks coins with no problems start at a buck.

KlectorKid · February 22, 2003 12:38AM

If it were cleaned/wizzed wouldnt that eliminate the chances that its end-roll toning?

dwood · February 22, 2003 12:40AM

That's my feeling. Perhaps relayer knows the secret handshake?

cointoast · February 22, 2003 12:45AM

Wha?????????

One of our own selling a wizzed, cleaned (and probably AT) coin????

Don't get toooo mad at him guys...It's not like he's the only member of this forum to ever sell wizzed, cleaned
(and probably AT) coins......

ah · February 22, 2003 12:45AM

You should have mentioned it in your sales pitch,
you have put self among the trash heap of
what this forum stands for, just my opinion.

stujoe · February 22, 2003 12:49AM

Personally, I don't know any handshakes.

but I also have no problems speaking my mind in what I hope is a somewhat gentle manner. As I said in a different post, I do leave some things unsaid that I might say face to face but that applies to insiders and outsiders.

Myself, I don't want to make a little extra money at the expense of having a question like relayer posted even have to enter my mind. If I didn't agree with the (I assume PCGS) bb, I would say that too in the auction.

zenny · February 22, 2003 1:00AM

i'll join in the chorus of boos here, with my own pet peeve-

55 +15 +10 = 80

you even lie about how much you put into the coin

the whole thing is ugly

(ok, maybe not the at whizzed/cleaned coin, though)

c'mon folks it's the weekend, there should be a pretty good blaze going here............

shameful behavior

z

edited to add: i usually appreciate Relayer's input on threads, which is why i was more than a little surprised at his behavior. We all, at some point or another, engage in shameful behavior, we are human, after all. Of course it's possible he's pulling our collective leg and has already been in contact with Braddick about the coin, but it is information, even if he paid a whole 15 bucks for it, that should be shared with any potential buyer. Clearly.

IrishMike · February 22, 2003 1:01AM

Tim, I haven't heard the story of the coin you mentioned that recently sold. Sounds interesting.

dwood · February 22, 2003 1:04AM

Zenny....you noticed the absence of fire too?

Hyenas eat anything, including baby hyenas...but in an interesting and perplexing twist, they never eat their own offspring. Truly one of the conundrums of evolutionary theory.

KlectorKid · February 22, 2003 1:04AM

Lets get ready to rip eachothers heads off.

IrishMike · February 22, 2003 1:08AM

The fire was flamed when the seller came in here and tried to put it out by pissing down our backs, so far that hasn't happened on this coin, as least yet.

cointoast · February 22, 2003 1:08AM

I believe the coin was already "outed" in another thread... link

KlectorKid · February 22, 2003 1:11AM

Flame suit ready!

dwood · February 22, 2003 1:13AM

Kudos to those who have spoken out on this. It will be interesting to see wh oelse does (and as I suspect, who doesn't

KlectorKid · February 22, 2003 1:16AM

sinin1 · February 22, 2003 1:19AM

Relayer - without blasting you as the scum of the earth typical eBay seller (like some others), what do you think of the coin?

Do you feel it has been cleaned or whizzed or do you feel PCGS erred on this coin?

What does it look like under magnifying glass?

If you sent to ANACS what do you thin kthey would say?

Is this a MS coin or AU?

cointoast · February 22, 2003 1:27AM

And to make matters even WORSE the ad says,

"Well I've laid out $90 for this piece. What's it worth today? Only you know"

But in his post to the Forum he says,

"I paid $55 dollars for the coin, 15 dollars to have it "body bagged" and $10 dollars hoping the Post Office will "lose" it. "

So your hyping the auction by saying you paid $90 for the coin?

Poor at best.

dwood · February 22, 2003 1:50AM

I have to go out for a bit. Someone archive all these threads in case they get blasted.

crito · February 22, 2003 2:13AM

If PCGS had slabbed that Kennedy, one of you guys would have paid $200+ for it and be flaming anyone who would dare to question the originality of the toning. As many have said before, there are plenty of cleaned and AT'd coins in PCGS, NGC and all the other slabs. PCGS' own guidelines state that they don't bodybag for cleaning, they bodybag for excessive (aka "harsh") cleaning. Market acceptability is just that: The general consensus (among the coin collecting community) is that minor problems, especially when they don't negatively affect eye appeal, are acceptable. Reason being, for many of the classics, like Bust coinage, there are hardly ANY completely "original" coins left. Personally, I can't see ANYTHING in the pictures that indicates a cleaning (usual disclaimer that pics can be deceptive) and am under NO OBLIGATION to agree with PCGS, or ANACS and don't recognize them as authorities on anything but authentication. The rest is mostly a matter of opinion. If he knows it's harshly cleaned, he should say so. If it's just PCGS that thinks so, and he disagrees, then I see no reason to perpetuate the boolshiat.

Russ · February 22, 2003 2:15AM

Relayer,

Of course you should have mentioned it, and you knew that before you posted this thread. I'm curious. Would you have even asked this if I hadn't posted about this coin yesterday?

Russ, NCNE

wallstreetman · February 22, 2003 2:28AM

Relayer: A person who passes the Baton(Cleaned/Whizzed coin) to the next guy!

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 2:34AM

I don't care if you tell Braddick or not but you should end the auction for your cleaned ATed junk.
I bet if the high bidder hadn't been a police officer that lived close to you you would have took the money and laughed all the way to the bank.

Morganluver · February 22, 2003 2:50AM

I'll say two things. At least he brought it to the board and "came clean" with the info, and interestingly, PCGS BB it for harsh cleaning and not AT. Does that mean they think the toning is real? Don't know. Have they ever given more than one reason for a body bag?

cointoast · February 22, 2003 3:12AM

Only "Came clean" after Russ outed the coin yesterday.

wallstreetman · February 22, 2003 3:43AM

Morganluver, thats more than two things! He only came clean because Braddick bid and he knew he was busted here, he probably wishes he didnt post this thread now, just play dumb!

crito · February 22, 2003 3:58AM

Did Russ put "MOST OF THESE COINS HAVE BEEN DIPPED AND I GOT THEM PAST PCGS" in big red letters when he auctioned off his Kennedy resgitry set on eBay? Does Braddick put "I DIDN'T LIKE MY FEEDBACK SO I FOUND A LOOPHOLE IN THE SYSTEM AND HAD IT CLEARED" on his About Me page? Ya, right. Which is the pot and which is the kettle again? I've lost track.

Russ · February 22, 2003 4:01AM

Now, now, crito, watch that blood pressure. You seem to be feeling too much tension. Relax, breathe in the positive vibrations to be found all around you.

Russ, NCNE

JJacks · February 22, 2003 4:06AM

Let's see. It's a silver 64 Kennedy. What are those worth in Gem BU again? I hope you paid $55 for the whole roll! I just don't understand some of this toning premium when it is actually very easy to find toned coins these days (and some people will make a toned one for you if you want!)

JJacks

braddick · February 22, 2003 4:10AM

Since when is using "SquareTrade" to have a single retalitory negative feedback removed a loophole?

(I was a buyer of what turned out was a harshly cleaned, raw Morgan and the Seller refused any return- even when I offered he keep 20% plus I pay two way postage-. I post Negative, he retaliated with his afterward. I then contact SqareTrade. They settled the dispute to both the Seller's and my satisfaction.)

dwood · February 22, 2003 4:17AM

Braddick,
Have you commented on your perception of this transaction, now knowing that there may be a problem with the coin. Forgive me if I missed it.

braddick · February 22, 2003 4:27AM

Never. And I wouldn't. Not every problem and transaction that goes south needs to be publicly aired. It was simply me buying a Morgan raw off of eBay (first mistake) and now owning a somewhat expensive, harshly cleaned and hairlined semi key date.
No where in the auction did it state the Seller would refuse a return. This was the FIRST and only coin I've ever even tried to return out of hundreds I've purchased off of eBay.
A kind email to the Seller soliciting a return had him reply that he would not accept one. I then offered to pay postage both ways and to allow the Seller to keep 20% for his time and effort and eBay fees. He wouldn't be out anything from his pocket.
He still refuses.
After this back and forth emailing I had no choice but to leave Negative Feedback (again, my first!). Only after I do so the Seller left me negative feedback. Now, if I buy a coin and Paypal it the same day, why am I also receiving Negative? I believe it was retalitory and being a member of SquareTrade I file a claim.

Now, for those that don't know how SquareTrade works, they will only investigate a claim if BOTH parties are willing to move forward (or if there is NO response from the other party).
After a negotiator had me detail my complaint he received replies from the Seller. The end result was I had my Negative feedback removed.

Now, again I ask. How is this "finding a loophole..."?

Also, now that it is apparent I will not be recieving a PM back from crito- How does the "pot/ kettle, black" anology work in my case when I NEVER on this post or others complained about Relayer? I have been silent other than, on another thread, to state "he is locale and I trust him..."?

I don't mind a good flame- I've justly received them. But when it is completely bogus and out of left field?
No thanks.

dwood · February 22, 2003 4:33AM

Well Braddick,
I salute you with the deepest sincerity. I agree that a public forum isn't the place, or the vehicle to work out problems with a transaction. However, it would appear that you and I share an opinion which is unquestionably in the minority on these forums.

Kudos to you for your forthright and fair handling of what look to be two "difficult" transactions!

coinguy1 · February 22, 2003 4:39AM

Well spoken Braddick/Pat.

You don't leave much for anyone to find fault with in these transactions.
I hope I haven't just jinxed you.

DCAMFranklin · February 22, 2003 4:39AM

Well done Braddick! On both counts.

relayer · February 22, 2003 5:45AM

Here is where I bought it

I also bought this from him, which did make it into a PCGS MS64 holder As you can see I used the same picture.

Zenny, I was wrong about the $55 - It closed at $67 so my outlay will be closer to $100 after all the ebay fees. In my auctions, I provide a link to the complete terms which includes my return policy. So whoever wins it can look at it and return it it they want. That's not a problem.

Russ, I missed the thread where you exposed the coin sorry. Where were you when I was buying it?

I just happened to look at my auction and looked at the "me" page and saw Braddicks name. I just assumed it was a toning seller (peackcoins) that was going to re-sell it at a profit.

And yes in the past I've listed BB coins as such but on this one, I decided to omit the the fact here.

I was debating how much of the story I should put in the ad, because I can't afford to finance all the ebay transactions. I decided to provide a supersized scan (from the ad I bought it from) and let the buyers decide for themselfs as I did. I try to be fair to others, but I also try to be fair to myself.

I'm not running a money making operation, but still I can't afford to give too many coins away.

So I relisted it here I played up the drawbacks on the coin.

Check back next week and see which dealer buys it, then look for it in a slab next month listed for $750.

And now the time I spent will make me miss the post office today and all the nice people one ebay waiting for the $50 coins they paid $10 for are going to have to wait until Monday.

dwood · February 22, 2003 5:52AM

aswimmer had a generous return policy too.

Blood in the water! Go get him boys!

Should I tell Braddick the coin he's bidding on has been cleaned?

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