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1836 Half Eagle HM-9 script 8 ! Value ?
Sircointalot69
Posts: 80 ✭✭
I have this 1836 Script 8 HM-9 Classic Half Eagle. I was wondering if anyone has an Idea of value for this ? it is graded by NGC cleaned 
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That is a heck of a coin to have without having an idea of its value. NGC, PCGS and CAC all have online guides you can search and you can also look through auction archive listings that are fairly extensive at Great Collections (GC) or Heritage (HA).
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Thanks Tom, Yeah I know but the realized prices are older. I'm trying to get a more updated price on it as it's probably the most valuable coin I own- atm !
I think there are only 6 or 7 Known to exist ?
Yes, at this time it is a very scarce die marriage, but we also have to keep in mind that collecting these by die marriage has not been a very common goal for most folks so there are no doubt examples floating around unattributed.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I understand what you are saying Tom but wouldn't one want to have one of these to complete a set , isn't that the goal more so as than to collect these by variety ? Also, if there are only a handful struck then why do I hear the same from thing from other people that there are "others floating around out there" is there some info I'm not aware of ? I thought these were all accounted for especially now that the one I have came to light it should be the final one I would think ? OR unless theres some Mint engravers notes that say otherwise that I'm not aware of ?
actually no.
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most people don't care about die marriage, that's what TomB is telling you. most buy the 1836 $5 in whatever die marriage and be done with it
what proof do you have that only a handful were struck?
and to say yours is the "Final" prove that.
since most don't care about die marriages, there are likely unattributed ones floating out there.
I don't exactly understand what you are asking.
Most folks collect these coins as either type coins or as a date and mintmark set. Few, very few, collect these by die marriage and the Haynor book that these die marriages and rarity ratings come from was only published in 2020. These aren't like Capped Bust halves (CBH) that have had extensive Overton die marriage numbers associated with them for over a half century. As such, I would suspect the great majority of extant Classic Head gold coinage has never had their die marriages designated.
In short, the 1836 Script 8 Classic Head half eagle is not a rare or scarce coin, it is the die marriage that is scarce. However, if few folks actually care much about the die marriages in this series then the series has likely not been checked exhaustively.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Ok I get what you guys mean about collectors not making it a priority to collect these in a certian order by die marriage etc.
I only say that my coin is the final example is because The information I read about this coin in the past says that there were only a few struck but the way it sounds from you guys that isn't true at all, so how did they come to that conclusion ? I'll find what I'm was basing my thoughts on and post it when I come across that information.
In the mean time I actually found a completed recent auction that ended in 2026 I didn't see until now . It sold for 2k + so I guess that answers my question on value 😭 I guess the discovery coin wins the prize since all others after seem to go downhill in price ! Once again, I really don't understand why that is the case if it is the rarest one out of the series to complete a set ?
Below is from Heritage -
1836 Half Eagle, VF Details
HM-9, R.7, Only Six Confirmed
1836 $5 Script 8, HM-9, R.7, -- Scratch -- PCGS Genuine. VF Details. Yellow-gold envelops this piece with some small grime nestled in the legends. As noted by the holder, a scratch is present from star 3, which will serve as a distinct pedigree holder. This is an exceptionally rare die pairing, easily identified by the script 8 in the date, and only six have been confirmed. This piece may be a part of the Haynor roster as the private coins mentioned at 5. or 6., or this is a potential seventh example.
Roster of Confirmed 1836 HM-9 Classic Half Eagles
1. AU50 NGC. The John McCloskey discovery coin. Lengthy die crack Star 2 to Star 5. FUN Signature (Heritage, 1/2022), lot 4393, $15,600.00
2. XF45 PCGS. The Russell J. Logan & Gilbert G. Steinberg specimen. Faint die crack.
3. XF40 NGC. PNG Signature (Heritage, 10/2014), lot 4998, $6,462.50.
4. XF40 PCGS. Private collection.
5. Private collection example.
6. Private collection example.
7. The present example (possibly 5. or 6. above).
Ok, so it seems like with this particular coin series, varieties do not matter that much from what you are saying ? But at the same time why do other varieties for other type coins sell for Buko bucks. I was under the impression for many years after talking with dealers and others, that varieties are what serious collectors look for to have a super complete set- or else what is the point of having a half completed set then..... it makes no sense ! One would think that a rare variety as the HM-9 would command a very large value but that doesn't seem to be the case here ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Die marriages are not that important for most collectors of this series whereas they can be critically important for collectors of other series. Collectors of early half dollars (1794-1839) can pay extraordinary sums of money for especially scarce or rare die marriages and some of that extra value is due to the fact that folks have been collecting these series by die marriage for decades. Take for example the first Overton book that established a great working paradigm for all die marriage books that followed, it was first published around 1971 so it has been going strong for 55 or so years.
Classic Head gold does not have this long-term wealth of die marriage study or collector passion, which of course does not mean that no one buys these by die marriage but it does mean that die marriage is inconsequntial to the vast majority of folks for this series. By the way, "die marriage" is not interchangeable with "variety".
I also have Daryl Haynor's excellent book on Classic Head gold published in 2020 where I believe you have obtained your roster of known HM-9 coins from. You seem to be confusing known examples with extant examples or examples struck. That is one incredibly important thing to keep in mind that I don't know that you fully value. In a less studied series the known examples are not so definitively attributed as the only extant examples and are no way no how considered the only struck examples.
Varieties and die marriages aren't what serious collectors are looking for...they are what serious collectors of varieties and die marriages are looking for! You also appear to be ignoring supply and demand. If the supply is limited but the demand is even smaller then price pressure can be almost non-existent. If you have been in this hobby-industry for many years you must not have kept your eyes open the entire time.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Nice find. I agree with what others have said. I currently own 21 of the 34 die marriages for the Classic Head $5's. There are very few of us that collect the series this way. A couple years ago I purchased a few R5-R6 DM's for a small amount over spot. Most dealers don't even take the time to attribute them.
There was a recent ****CORRECTION, Heritage auction**** Stacks auction with a details 1836 HM-9. That might help you determine current value.
Completed All CAC approved Classic Head $5 set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/album/344241
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I could see some choice R-7 commanding a notable premium. A details graded R-6 will be type coin money. No premium.
As said many times earlier, hardly anyone collects these by die variety. Even further, those collecting want problem free examples.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
I'm not ignoring anything and I'm listening to what everyone is saying I'm learning all the time but at the same time I always seem to get criticized for asking. I'm not an expert at all but I have been collecting for around 35 years now and I do own tons of guides and books on just about everything . It's just very frustrating to find a rarity to only find out 'who cares at the end of the day'.
In all these guides they go on about rarity and attach a number level but what does it matter if it's not going to command a premium it can have a rarity of 100 and not be worth anything ! So guides to me are useless and a waste of big money for certain ones- not all though. They make great reading entertainment and not worth some of the prices paid IMO they're more of a collectible than useful I feel.
Thx! but It's very disheartening to hear this since it's pretty rare to only be wirth very little at this point. it seems that I seeing that with all series almost all of the occasional new discovery coins command a premium and drop dramatically with each new one discovered. I see this on Heritage and Stacks that over the years the realized prices of yesteryear are not what the same coins go for today, at all !
Yeah that seems to be the case unfortunately. Ya think you find something good and poof !😩
It's unlikely that the premium is because of a "discovery coin" moniker. It's because it's the top pop. Top pop prices behave differently. And they only require two collectors to want the top pop for their die marriage set.
That's enough demand in an auction to drive high prices for one coin. It is not enough demand to drive a high price for the lowest pop which is also a problem coin.
Roster of Confirmed 1836 HM-9 Classic Half Eagles
1. AU50 NGC. The John McCloskey discovery coin. Lengthy die crack Star 2 to Star 5. FUN Signature (Heritage, 1/2022), lot 4393, $15,600.00
2. XF45 PCGS. The Russell J. Logan & Gilbert G. Steinberg specimen. Faint die crack.
3. XF40 NGC. PNG Signature (Heritage, 10/2014), lot 4998, $6,462.50.
4. XF40 PCGS. Private collection.
5. Private collection example.
6. Private collection example.
7. The present example (possibly 5. or 6. above).
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Interestingly, it doesn't appear cleaned enough to warrant that designation.
Yup ! If you're not a well known name then you're done in this game I guess ! Little fish in a big pond full of sharks.
It is for sure.
That wasn't Lermish's point at all. His point was that there is a lot of demand focused on the straight-graded, top pop example (hence the higher premium).
Notice that names are only attached to the two top coins on the roster. I'd suspect that people don't care about the specific names so much as they care about having the provenance for the best coins. For the lesser examples, they care less about the provenance. Another way of looking at it is that the best coins tend to fall into the most prominent collections (acquiring a provenance), while the lesser examples do not.
For what it's worth, there was a significant premium paid for the VF details example that just sold through Heritage in September. It sold for just over $2,000, which would basically be straight-graded AU money for a common 1836 die marriage. It may not be the premium that you expected or hoped for, but it is a premium nonetheless.
I suspect your coin would also fetch a premium if sold at auction. Timing is important; I wouldn't rush to offer it right after another example has just recently sold. And you'd have to be prepared to accept the result, whatever that may be.
I like the research you are doing into your coins, this is the sort of thing that makes the hobby fun.
Determining that your 1921 Peace $1 is from the same set of dies as the Jack Lee "alleged proof" and finding this rare but not highly demanded die pair Half Eagle is commendable.
I'm reminded of the 1995-D 1C DDO... Quite rare but since the doubling isn't very pronounced it has limited demand and stagnated price.
Collector, occasional seller
Yeah, I had seen that completed auction on Heritage. That actually answered my original question about Value . I'm in no rush to sell and will probably pass it on to my kids anyway 😁but it would have been nice to see a way higher premium for the one that sold recently
Thx! and I assume you meant peace dollar not half eagle ? if you look back at the video of my coin it does have a nice sheen to it, and it very closely resembles the Lee coin (less detail on mine) which others on here disagree with. Anyway, here is my coin before I sent it in the PCGS it was graded as Genuine but it regraded as MS-63
.
Not to beat a dead horse but its all about how many are trying to complete a die marriage set at any particular time. I have an 1804 Capped Bust $5 in PCGS58 that's an R.7. with only 5 known yet it doesn't carry a premium over a common variety.
Sickening that it does nothing for a coin. What's the point of assigning rarity #s to coins if it doesn't do anything for it value wise !
It only matters if you are a seller. An astute rarity collector will appreciate any R7 coin due to the tiny number known and that usually suffices imo. But the potential is there when there are 2 or more collectors who must have the coin in question.
Sickening? That's a sickening attitude.
Not everybody collects to make money or to maximize the value of their coins.
For people who take true enjoyment in collecting a specific series by die marriage or variety finding a rare coin, even if it's not a profitable endeavor recognized by thousands, is a joyous event.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Stop being foolish.
We are in a supply and demand hobby-industry. If there isn't sufficient demand compared to the available supply then prices are depressed. If demand outstrips supply then prices adjust accordingly. Rarity ratings might be assigned for reasons other than bottom-line dollars such as the continuous research that is done in nearly every niche of numismatics. Much of that research generates no dollars for the people who invest their time and resources to do it and generates no income for the folks who support it or consume the information, but it is done out of passion and curiosity.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Rarity numbers are assigned for purposes of information, not in order to enrich holders of the coins. Many collectors appreciate that, even if you don’t.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ok so why does a rarity number come into play when there is a sale of a rare coin like on Heritage for example. They make the rarity # stand out in their description and make it sound like wowwww RARITY 10 or whatever and that seems to be why it sells for the higher price ? So it does make a difference at times.
I'm not knocking the hobbie all together but over the years speaking with dealers at shows and coin shops they allways bring to my attention the rarity # and how it makes a big difference in value ! So they are all lying to me I guess ?
And also if it makes a a collection complete, then one would assume a rarer coin should naturally sell for more in the coin collecting world...
They are all trying to extract more money or make an easier sale. Although some may also be attempting to educate you, as well, in the event that you are buying a certain series by die marriage.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I beg to differ with "Not everybody collects to make money or to maximize the value of their coins"
Because in the case of Classic Head gold 99.99% of buyers don't care about die marriages and therefore don't care about relative rarity between die marriages.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I get it about the Classic heads
Then either you are not a native English speaker or you are among the most delusional people on this board (which is saying a LOT).
I don't collect to make money or maximize the value of my coins. Therefore not everybody does. You can differ all you like but you're wrong.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
so:
"Not everybody collects to make money or to maximize the value of their coins"
I look for rare coins and collectibles to make income which I heavily depend on since I got hit by a truck and cannot work at all anymore so I can only do this at this time which I very much enjoy and profit from, at times !
Born and raised IN the Good Ol USA my friend! but maybe you weren't or are delusional ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Everyone at some point needs money !
I don't know how to explain this to you more simply because either you are not reading properly or you're too dense to understand. I'm leaning towards the latter given all of your other posts.
If you can't understand this explanation, I no longer have the patience to put up with your questions as I believe they are in bad faith. Or, probably more accurately, they are asked in a thick cloak of avarice.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Yes I appreciate the help and input from you guys but some others are oversensitive to what I say I guess.
Sorry I don't play video games and I'm sorry you think that of me but you have to see my POV I do like and enjoy collecting a lot of different things. I do hear what you're saying . I'm just a bit peeved at the collecting world since I see a lot of things sell for big money but only it seems if you have a recognizable title to your name then those get sold fast !
Absolutely !
Anyways, you're all right I'm wrong so I guess we cannot agree to disagree so i'll say goodnight and happy collecting to all !
Hasta la pasta !
"I'm just a bit peeved at the collecting world since I see a lot of things sell for big money but only it seems if you have a recognizable title to your name then those get sold fast !"
"the collecting world" Is that some worldwide shadow organization that is running things?
Maybe so 🤣
@lermish "I don't know how to explain this to you more simply because either you are not reading properly or you're too dense to understand. I'm leaning towards the latter given all of your other posts".
Obviously I know what I'm doing and looking for or else I wouldn't have come across this Classic Gold Piece wouldn't you say so? And I'm not disregarding what people have to say on here, I'm listening to everyone's opinion. I'm not being dense I'm just speaking my mind about how I feel about how the way markets are bias towards the little guy if you're not a well known name and it frustrates me everytime I find a good thing it turns out to be not as expected that's why I question the whole retail side of Numismatics. I have nothing against collectors or this being an enjoyable hobby.
But I come on here asking a simple question about value of a coin or coins and I get beat up immediately because some of you on here get bent outta shape right away if I do not agree with you. You's say I'm not "listening or reading" but at the same time you're not seeing it from my POV either or just dismissing me immediately because you feel superior in some way.
I appreciate everyone's help but please see it from my side too !
Just seeing this thread made me realize we hadn't properly reflected value on this coin, so I have updated Greysheet web site with my estimates of value. Note, this will update in print with the next Mega Red (whenever we come out with 11th ed). I also updated 1835 HM-5.
In regards to frustration about rarity ratings and true market value, I would insert one of my father's favorite old expressions. "A coin may be R-7 but the customer might be R-8." In other words, demand is more important than rarity. However, I personally believe that getting this information out there is instrumental to making new collectors aware and that hopefully will add demand.
If it helps, my personal opinion of value for your cleaned example is that it's is worth about double what it would if it were a common die pairing. I wouldn't sell it. It should only gain value over time IMO as more collectors get interesting in these varieties. Good luck!
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I said : Not everybody collects to make money or to maximize the value of their coins.
You said: I beg to differ with "Not everybody collects to make money or to maximize the value of their coins"
That means: Everybody collects to make money or to maximize the value of their coins.
And then you doubled down.
That is a false statement.
Why can you not understand that?
You do whatever you want but you're making vast broad statements about the entire collecting community which are uninformed and demonstrably incorrect (about both this topic and several other topics as well).
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
John, I thank you for your input on this matter.This is great to hear and I'm glad it will be updated somewhere officially. I probably will not sell anytime soon unless I really have to.