@logger7 said:
I'd be concerned by excessive hostility toward PCGS' main competitor:
"Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.
Should the thread be deemed inflammatory, negative or violate any rules it will be deleted or closed at the moderator's discretion, without warning.
Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed."
I just checked I have at least 315 NGC coins, possibly more. No more NGC coins for me unless the price is very good. I just crossed about 30 NGC coins to PCGS and most of them have had their grades drop two to three grades, which is unbelievable. If I need to cross all my NGC to PCGS the grading fee will be a lot if all of them can be crossed but for sure some of them will not be able to cross.
@OwenSeymour said: @MFeld there is nothing in their current posted terms suggesting it is not retroactive. Their terms state any coin graded >10 years ago isn’t covered. No mention of a start date of the policy, or coins being grandfathered into a permanent guarantee.
I heard from an NGC rep that the update is “not retroactive” and that they are “working towards having that updated ASAP”.
I don’t think we should just take their word for it- I’m not.
Corporate entities do not like open ended liabilities no matter how likley they are. I do not see this as an indictment
as to NGC's athenticity while Rick montgomery is overseeing Authenticity. The real test will be whether any other service follows. Possibly the recent trend of reliance on graders vs Numismatist/Authenticators has had more of a negative impact than expected. I know ANACS does not presently intend to follow as we have the lowest buyback rate of any grading service. I wonder if this is to shield against changes in market acceptance of varieties like 1914/3 nickels, 1922 "NO D" cents, Proof vs Business strike calls. J.P. Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
@Rampage said:
I am thankful the majority of my collection is in PCGS holders. I have a substantial amount in NGC holders and ANACS soapbox holders, but I know those coins to be genuine and am happy with what they are. So, no need to spend money crossing them over, especially if the new policy of effective with coins graded on or after June 2026 as previously mentioned.
You're right. Whatever happened to "Buy the coin not the holder?"
@OwenSeymour said: @MFeld there is nothing in their current posted terms suggesting it is not retroactive. Their terms state any coin graded >10 years ago isn’t covered. No mention of a start date of the policy, or coins being grandfathered into a permanent guarantee.
I heard from an NGC rep that the update is “not retroactive” and that they are “working towards having that updated ASAP”.
I don’t think we should just take their word for it- I’m not.
It’s simply not credible that they meant it to apply only prospectively when the plain meaning of the guarantee says otherwise. These documents are written by corporate lawyers that go through them with a fine tooth comb. There is no misunderstanding. NGC is trying to save face from all the negative publicity. It’s too late: The metaphorical gunshot wound has already been sustained.
@Rampage said:
I am thankful the majority of my collection is in PCGS holders. I have a substantial amount in NGC holders and ANACS soapbox holders, but I know those coins to be genuine and am happy with what they are. So, no need to spend money crossing them over, especially if the new policy of effective with coins graded on or after June 2026 as previously mentioned.
You're right. Whatever happened to "Buy the coin not the holder?"
Does CAC stcikering transfer any potential liability on a bad coin? J.P. Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
When I heard about the policy change, I considered crossing the NGC coins in my collection to PCGS holders. But then I considered how stupid I’d feel if I did that, and then PCGS implemented a similar change. So I’m doing nothing.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
When I heard about the policy change, I considered crossing the NGC coins in my collection to PCGS holders. But then I considered how stupid I’d feel if I did that, and then PCGS implemented a similar change. So I’m doing nothing.
@KOYNGUY said:
Corporate entities do not like open ended liabilities no matter how likley they are. I do not see this as an indictment
as to NGC's athenticity while Rick montgomery is overseeing Authenticity. The real test will be whether any other service follows. Possibly the recent trend of reliance on graders vs Numismatist/Authenticators has had more of a negative impact than expected. I know ANACS does not presently intend to follow as we have the lowest buyback rate of any grading service. I wonder if this is to shield against changes in market acceptance of varieties like 1914/3 nickels, 1922 "NO D" cents, Proof vs Business strike calls. J.P. Martin
@U1chicago said:
For those advocating crossing coins over, what happens when you spend all that money and find out PCGS implements the same policy?
My thought was CACG because of the guarantee crossover for CAC stickered coins.
This post suggested PCGS capitalize on the situation. They could and then implement the same policy.
Fair. I posted that out of anger and desire to punish NGC. It gives collectors more options. I could be swayed to either service depending on how sweet the crossover offer is if one were offered. It could be a win-win for collectors and NGC’s competitors alike. If I were CEO of either, I would try to capitalize on it and make it as painful for NGC as I could.
@U1chicago said:
For those advocating crossing coins over, what happens when you spend all that money and find out PCGS implements the same policy?
My thought was CACG because of the guarantee crossover for CAC stickered coins.
This post suggested PCGS capitalize on the situation. They could and then implement the same policy.
Fair. I posted that out of anger and desire to punish NGC. It gives collectors more options. I could be swayed to either service depending on how sweet the crossover offer is if one were offered. It could be a win-win for collectors and NGC’s competitors alike. If I were CEO of either, I would try to capitalize on it and make it as painful for NGC as I could.
I have the same desires but at the end of the day none of us collectors are really going to make a meaningful difference to their bottom line. It will come down to bulk submitters and they are unlikely to change their grading habits unless there's a noticeable drop off in sales of NGC holdered coins.
@cameonut2011 said:
That’s why I said I will treat them as raw.
What if you are looking for a 1909-S VDB cent and a dealer had two essentially identical coins with one being raw and the other being in an NGC slab. Which one would you buy? Don't forget that the NGC slabbed coin was examined by professional numismatists.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@cameonut2011 said:
That’s why I said I will treat them as raw.
What if you are looking for a 1909-S VDB cent and a dealer had two essentially identical coins with one being raw and the other being in an NGC slab. Which one would you buy? Don't forget that the NGC slabbed coin was examined by professional numismatists.
NGC has a good track record for spotting counterfeits. That’s why going back on that guarantee, which essential for a professional coin certification company, is puzzling.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@logger7 said:
Does it really kill confidence then? The owner has 10 years which can be a long time to invoke the guarantee.
If I understand your comment correctly, you are referring to the scenario where a collector sends in a raw coin to be slabbed, and then is covered for the next 10 years.
I am more concerned (rightly or wrongly) about a different scenario. Let’s say I see an NGC-slabbed coin at a coin show. I check its cert number and find out it was slabbed 12 years earlier. If I purchase the coin, isn’t the risk now entirely on me? For example:
If for some reason the coin were later determined to be fake, am I not left holding the bag?
If the holder becomes scuffed and I send it to NGC to be re-holdered, will it come back at the same grade?
If I can get a similar coin in a PCGS holder, why would I bother taking even small risks with an NGC coin?
It isn’t unwise to limit liabilities if reasonable and if one can do it competitively. Problem here is not so much that the limit is unreasonable IMO, it is that it changes their competitive position in a largely unregulated “investment” environment where trust in the product is critical.
@Liquidated said:
I don’t see what the big deal is. Like the coin buy it. Will not have any effect on my decisions.
As far as reasoning….Understandable for a company to limit liability and 10 years is more than ample time.
If it depresses auction results or wholesale prices for lesser material, it’s a big deal.
You will have to do your own verification for as to whether or not the coin is real because NGC no longer backs it.
As I said about old time dealers, “The coin is genuine. This a an unconditional guarantee.” NGC longed does this.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Liquidated said:
I don’t see what the big deal is. Like the coin buy it. Will not have any effect on my decisions.
As far as reasoning….Understandable for a company to limit liability and 10 years is more than ample time.
If it depresses auction results or wholesale prices for lesser material, it’s a big deal.
You will have to do your own verification for as to whether or not the coin is real because NGC no longer backs it.
As I said about old time dealers, “The coin is genuine. This a an unconditional guarantee.” NGC longed does this.
There was a time not long ago that most coins traded raw. Now, this is absurd that everything goes into a slab. Even modern bullion. The people that marketed this idea did their job well. For someone on the outside looking it, it is comical and the new people in last 15 years feel this is just how it should be.
Mason5 said it best that it is only an opinion.
Most of what I ever bought was raw. 6 years ago to get most sold efficiently required slabbing. The grades were loose from when I most actively buying.
Most submissions were in lots of 10 and valued $200-$2000. I had 7 submissions to PCGS and each one had one coin detail grade. I could never see why detail graded. Included those 7 detail graded coins and resubmitted with a few others and 6 of 7 straight graded. From that point on used on NGC. I have/had SLQ’ that would never have been designated FH, yet now many are. Not defending NGC as they let stuff slide too, but end of day people put too much faith into PCGS/NGC.
Seriously how many people buy a coin because it has a guarantee? How many of those people complaining would truthfully only buy because of a guarantee? There are a lot of people on this board that will complain over nuances and vow to never buy NGC. I don’t feel those people are honest with themselves.
It is sad what this hobby became as a whole.
I don’t see it having any effect and could see PCGS following in one way or the other. It makes sense when valuing a company to put a price on liability cost exposure. Granted been wrong before. Felt CAC was a gimmick until seeing how loose grading became and can understand some’s desire to have the review but shake my head at the premium and people’s justification.
People once shunned ANACS soap bars, now actively look for them.
There's a lot of speculation in this thread (and the other overlapping thread).
On the face of things, NGC seems to be telling everyone to take their money and go elsewhere. Since it makes no sense to me that they would say such a thing, I'm going to assume there's something else going on. It would be nice if NGC felt like sharing some facts that would out the worst of the speculation to bed.
I don't think that NGC made this decision as a way to encourage resubmissions. If they did, they're idiots. Why on earth would someone agree to lease an opinion on authenticity for 10 years when they can get a perpetual guarantee from someone else? I'll stick with "something else going on".
@Liquidated said:
I don’t see what the big deal is. Like the coin buy it. Will not have any effect on my decisions.
As far as reasoning….Understandable for a company to limit liability and 10 years is more than ample time.
If it depresses auction results or wholesale prices for lesser material, it’s a big deal.
You will have to do your own verification for as to whether or not the coin is real because NGC no longer backs it.
As I said about old time dealers, “The coin is genuine. This a an unconditional guarantee.” NGC longed does this.
There was a time not long ago that most coins traded raw. Now, this is absurd that everything goes into a slab. Even modern bullion. The people that marketed this idea did their job well. For someone on the outside looking it, it is comical and the new people in last 15 years feel this is just how it should be.
Masking said it best that it is only an opinion.
Most of what I ever bought was raw. 6 years ago to get a lot sold efficiently required slabbing. The grades were loose from when I most actively buying.
Most submissions were in lots of 10 and valued $200-$2000. I had 7 submissions to PCGS and each one had one coin detail grade. I could never see why detail graded. Included those 7 detail graded coins and resubmitted with a few others and 6 of 7 straight graded. From that point on used on NGC. I have/had SLQ’ that would never have been designated FH, yet now many are. Not defending NGC as they let stuff slide too, but end of day people put too much faith into PCGS/NGC.
Seriously how many people buy a coin because it has a guarantee? How many of those people complaining would truthfully only buy because of a guarantee?
It is sad what this hobby became as a whole.
How old are you? I’m 77, and it sure doesn’t “seem like yesterday” when third party grading took a major position in the U.S. coin market. I wasn’t happy about until about 1990, which is 36 years ago. Slabs were introduced a few years before that.
I’ve had similar situations, like you, where coins got “a body bag” (nothing for your money) or a details grade from one service a grade from another. You don’t like it, but if you know how to grade, you play the game. When I was a dealer, I made out big time with raw coin submissions. As a collector, not so much. That’s why I buy coins in the slabs I want.
Have you ever bought a counterfeit.? I have when I was much younger. They were learning experiences, but it still hurt. It can kill the hobby for a newbie. Ditto for altered and processed coins. I learned from the school of hard knocks and from a few mentors in the 1960s and ‘70s. Slabbing is necessary because Chinese counterfeits are so numerous among raw coins. The Chinese have counterfeited everything, including common dates in circulated condition.
I have some NGC certified coins which are worth 6 figures. Maybe that is why I am not happy with them walking away from their commitments.
Raw items are still common with British, ancient Roman, and tokens and medals, but those days are ending too. Those are areas where I have collected, along with U.S. coins, for 15 years or much more.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@jonathanb said:
There's a lot of speculation in this thread (and the other overlapping thread).
On the face of things, NGC seems to be telling everyone to take their money and go elsewhere. Since it makes no sense to me that they would say such a thing, I'm going to assume there's something else going on. It would be nice if NGC felt like sharing some facts that would out the worst of the speculation to bed.
I don't think that NGC made this decision as a way to encourage resubmissions. If they did, they're idiots. Why on earth would someone agree to lease an opinion on authenticity for 10 years when they can get a perpetual guarantee from someone else? I'll stick with "something else going on".
Whatever’s going on - and I think it’s most likely, simply a desire to reduce potential liability - the solution’s resulting in a very bad look. And NGC’s competitors are probably doing high-fives and saying “Thank you!”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jonathanb said:
There's a lot of speculation in this thread (and the other overlapping thread).
On the face of things, NGC seems to be telling everyone to take their money and go elsewhere. Since it makes no sense to me that they would say such a thing, I'm going to assume there's something else going on. It would be nice if NGC felt like sharing some facts that would out the worst of the speculation to bed.
I don't think that NGC made this decision as a way to encourage resubmissions. If they did, they're idiots. Why on earth would someone agree to lease an opinion on authenticity for 10 years when they can get a perpetual guarantee from someone else? I'll stick with "something else going on".
Whatever’s going on - and I think it’s most likely, simply a desire to reduce potential liability - the solution’s resulting in a very bad look. And NGC’s competitors are probably doing high-fives and saying “Thank you!”
Indeed. No matter how (and if) NGC rolls out damage control, this is a bell that can't be un-rung.
@jonathanb said:
There's a lot of speculation in this thread (and the other overlapping thread).
On the face of things, NGC seems to be telling everyone to take their money and go elsewhere. Since it makes no sense to me that they would say such a thing, I'm going to assume there's something else going on. It would be nice if NGC felt like sharing some facts that would out the worst of the speculation to bed.
I don't think that NGC made this decision as a way to encourage resubmissions. If they did, they're idiots. Why on earth would someone agree to lease an opinion on authenticity for 10 years when they can get a perpetual guarantee from someone else? I'll stick with "something else going on".
Whatever’s going on - and I think it’s most likely, simply a desire to reduce potential liability - the solution’s resulting in a very bad look. And NGC’s competitors are probably doing high-fives and saying “Thank you!”
Indeed. No matter how (and if) NGC rolls out damage control, this is a bell that can't be un-rung.
NGC will say they are only kind of pregnant but in reality the toothpaste is out of the tube.
😉
As a coin collector and just a general consumer, NGC's behavior infuriates me. I really hope the repercussions to its business are swift and severe.
WOW! I did not know Rick Montgomery was retiring. I am unaware of a single talent that can replace him. I worked with him in the early-mid 1980's. He was the sharp and fast then and has only gotten better. True Numismatists are hard to replace. I am sure his influence has strengthed his grading room, just as his retirement weakens it.
I am semi-retired at ANACS, Mike Fahey makes the calls now, We all had our origins in early ANACS. Rick was the 18 year old kid then, fresh out of high school. Tom Delorey was 27, Mike Fahey was 26, I was 27, when we started. End of an ERA. J.P.Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
@U1chicago said:
For those advocating crossing coins over, what happens when you spend all that money and find out PCGS implements the same policy?
My thought was CACG because of the guarantee crossover for CAC stickered coins.
This post suggested PCGS capitalize on the situation. They could and then implement the same policy.
Fair. I posted that out of anger and desire to punish NGC. It gives collectors more options. I could be swayed to either service depending on how sweet the crossover offer is if one were offered. It could be a win-win for collectors and NGC’s competitors alike. If I were CEO of either, I would try to capitalize on it and make it as painful for NGC as I could.
I have the same desires but at the end of the day none of us collectors are really going to make a meaningful difference to their bottom line. It will come down to bulk submitters and they are unlikely to change their grading habits unless there's a noticeable drop off in sales of NGC holdered coins.
As there undoubtedly will be once word gets out that the NGC guarantee is not a lifetime guarantee, while the competition offers one. After all, I'm sure ICG and ANACS would be willing to offer better bulk rates than NGC, PCGS and CACG, but that doesn't drive dealer business to them due to market perception.
If you don't think an inferior guarantee will impact market perception, once word gets out, I have nothing to tell you. Other than that early reaction in this thread suggests otherwise.
Market perceptions are changing right now. J.P. Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
Do TPGs authenticate that many coins that turn out to be counterfeit? It seems to me that NGC will lose more money in a reduction of submissions than paying off the occasional authenticated coin that turns out to be counterfeit.
So does this mean there will be an influx of NGC coins coming up for sale? Will some people panic and just want to cut the potential losses before the big drop happens (if it does) instead of crossing?
Has anything like this ever happened before?
Members I have done business with: Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
Maybe they hope their faithful don't get the message & its biz as usual...
They'll continue rolling in the dough without consequences of their new philosophy as they think no one is paying attention...
Comments
I’m more concerned about NGC’s guarantee
Head coin nerd @ Rarity7
There is no way that holds up in court especially after the fact.
I just checked I have at least 315 NGC coins, possibly more. No more NGC coins for me unless the price is very good. I just crossed about 30 NGC coins to PCGS and most of them have had their grades drop two to three grades, which is unbelievable. If I need to cross all my NGC to PCGS the grading fee will be a lot if all of them can be crossed but for sure some of them will not be able to cross.
Thank you, @OwenSeymour.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Corporate entities do not like open ended liabilities no matter how likley they are. I do not see this as an indictment
as to NGC's athenticity while Rick montgomery is overseeing Authenticity. The real test will be whether any other service follows. Possibly the recent trend of reliance on graders vs Numismatist/Authenticators has had more of a negative impact than expected. I know ANACS does not presently intend to follow as we have the lowest buyback rate of any grading service. I wonder if this is to shield against changes in market acceptance of varieties like 1914/3 nickels, 1922 "NO D" cents, Proof vs Business strike calls. J.P. Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
For those advocating crossing coins over, what happens when you spend all that money and find out PCGS implements the same policy?
You're right. Whatever happened to "Buy the coin not the holder?"
It’s simply not credible that they meant it to apply only prospectively when the plain meaning of the guarantee says otherwise. These documents are written by corporate lawyers that go through them with a fine tooth comb. There is no misunderstanding. NGC is trying to save face from all the negative publicity. It’s too late: The metaphorical gunshot wound has already been sustained.
Where does that appear?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My thought was CACG because of the guarantee crossover for CAC stickered coins.
That’s why I said I will treat them as raw.
Does CAC stcikering transfer any potential liability on a bad coin? J.P. Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
When I heard about the policy change, I considered crossing the NGC coins in my collection to PCGS holders. But then I considered how stupid I’d feel if I did that, and then PCGS implemented a similar change. So I’m doing nothing.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What is CAG?
What about when it comes time to sell?
This post suggested PCGS capitalize on the situation. They could and then implement the same policy.
Rick Montgomery is retiring. https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/15372/rick-montgomery-retiring-ngc-president/
What a stressful job he's had.
Fair. I posted that out of anger and desire to punish NGC. It gives collectors more options. I could be swayed to either service depending on how sweet the crossover offer is if one were offered. It could be a win-win for collectors and NGC’s competitors alike. If I were CEO of either, I would try to capitalize on it and make it as painful for NGC as I could.
I have the same desires but at the end of the day none of us collectors are really going to make a meaningful difference to their bottom line. It will come down to bulk submitters and they are unlikely to change their grading habits unless there's a noticeable drop off in sales of NGC holdered coins.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Link: https://www.cagcertified.com
What if you are looking for a 1909-S VDB cent and a dealer had two essentially identical coins with one being raw and the other being in an NGC slab. Which one would you buy? Don't forget that the NGC slabbed coin was examined by professional numismatists.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
NGC has a good track record for spotting counterfeits. That’s why going back on that guarantee, which essential for a professional coin certification company, is puzzling.
If I understand your comment correctly, you are referring to the scenario where a collector sends in a raw coin to be slabbed, and then is covered for the next 10 years.
I am more concerned (rightly or wrongly) about a different scenario. Let’s say I see an NGC-slabbed coin at a coin show. I check its cert number and find out it was slabbed 12 years earlier. If I purchase the coin, isn’t the risk now entirely on me? For example:
If for some reason the coin were later determined to be fake, am I not left holding the bag?
If the holder becomes scuffed and I send it to NGC to be re-holdered, will it come back at the same grade?
If I can get a similar coin in a PCGS holder, why would I bother taking even small risks with an NGC coin?
I don’t see what the big deal is. Like the coin buy it. Will not have any effect on my decisions.
As far as reasoning….Understandable for a company to limit liability and 10 years is more than ample time.
It isn’t unwise to limit liabilities if reasonable and if one can do it competitively. Problem here is not so much that the limit is unreasonable IMO, it is that it changes their competitive position in a largely unregulated “investment” environment where trust in the product is critical.
If it depresses auction results or wholesale prices for lesser material, it’s a big deal.
You will have to do your own verification for as to whether or not the coin is real because NGC no longer backs it.
As I said about old time dealers, “The coin is genuine. This a an unconditional guarantee.” NGC longed does this.
Dealers sell coins, TPGs sell opinions.
There was a time not long ago that most coins traded raw. Now, this is absurd that everything goes into a slab. Even modern bullion. The people that marketed this idea did their job well. For someone on the outside looking it, it is comical and the new people in last 15 years feel this is just how it should be.
Mason5 said it best that it is only an opinion.
Most of what I ever bought was raw. 6 years ago to get most sold efficiently required slabbing. The grades were loose from when I most actively buying.
Most submissions were in lots of 10 and valued $200-$2000. I had 7 submissions to PCGS and each one had one coin detail grade. I could never see why detail graded. Included those 7 detail graded coins and resubmitted with a few others and 6 of 7 straight graded. From that point on used on NGC. I have/had SLQ’ that would never have been designated FH, yet now many are. Not defending NGC as they let stuff slide too, but end of day people put too much faith into PCGS/NGC.
Seriously how many people buy a coin because it has a guarantee? How many of those people complaining would truthfully only buy because of a guarantee? There are a lot of people on this board that will complain over nuances and vow to never buy NGC. I don’t feel those people are honest with themselves.
It is sad what this hobby became as a whole.
I don’t see it having any effect and could see PCGS following in one way or the other. It makes sense when valuing a company to put a price on liability cost exposure. Granted been wrong before. Felt CAC was a gimmick until seeing how loose grading became and can understand some’s desire to have the review but shake my head at the premium and people’s justification.
People once shunned ANACS soap bars, now actively look for them.
There's a lot of speculation in this thread (and the other overlapping thread).
On the face of things, NGC seems to be telling everyone to take their money and go elsewhere. Since it makes no sense to me that they would say such a thing, I'm going to assume there's something else going on. It would be nice if NGC felt like sharing some facts that would out the worst of the speculation to bed.
I don't think that NGC made this decision as a way to encourage resubmissions. If they did, they're idiots. Why on earth would someone agree to lease an opinion on authenticity for 10 years when they can get a perpetual guarantee from someone else? I'll stick with "something else going on".
A small percentage of collectors, most don't focus on collecting slabbed coins.
I wouldn't worry too much, there is more to the hobby than TPG slabbed coins. I think it will survive just fine.
How old are you? I’m 77, and it sure doesn’t “seem like yesterday” when third party grading took a major position in the U.S. coin market. I wasn’t happy about until about 1990, which is 36 years ago. Slabs were introduced a few years before that.
I’ve had similar situations, like you, where coins got “a body bag” (nothing for your money) or a details grade from one service a grade from another. You don’t like it, but if you know how to grade, you play the game. When I was a dealer, I made out big time with raw coin submissions. As a collector, not so much. That’s why I buy coins in the slabs I want.
Have you ever bought a counterfeit.? I have when I was much younger. They were learning experiences, but it still hurt. It can kill the hobby for a newbie. Ditto for altered and processed coins. I learned from the school of hard knocks and from a few mentors in the 1960s and ‘70s. Slabbing is necessary because Chinese counterfeits are so numerous among raw coins. The Chinese have counterfeited everything, including common dates in circulated condition.
I have some NGC certified coins which are worth 6 figures. Maybe that is why I am not happy with them walking away from their commitments.
Raw items are still common with British, ancient Roman, and tokens and medals, but those days are ending too. Those are areas where I have collected, along with U.S. coins, for 15 years or much more.
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Whatever’s going on - and I think it’s most likely, simply a desire to reduce potential liability - the solution’s resulting in a very bad look. And NGC’s competitors are probably doing high-fives and saying “Thank you!”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Indeed. No matter how (and if) NGC rolls out damage control, this is a bell that can't be un-rung.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
NGC will say they are only kind of pregnant but in reality the toothpaste is out of the tube.
😉
As a coin collector and just a general consumer, NGC's behavior infuriates me. I really hope the repercussions to its business are swift and severe.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
To me it's plain and simple, it shows a lack of confidence in their own abilities.
WOW! I did not know Rick Montgomery was retiring. I am unaware of a single talent that can replace him. I worked with him in the early-mid 1980's. He was the sharp and fast then and has only gotten better. True Numismatists are hard to replace. I am sure his influence has strengthed his grading room, just as his retirement weakens it.
I am semi-retired at ANACS, Mike Fahey makes the calls now, We all had our origins in early ANACS. Rick was the 18 year old kid then, fresh out of high school. Tom Delorey was 27, Mike Fahey was 26, I was 27, when we started. End of an ERA. J.P.Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
As there undoubtedly will be once word gets out that the NGC guarantee is not a lifetime guarantee, while the competition offers one. After all, I'm sure ICG and ANACS would be willing to offer better bulk rates than NGC, PCGS and CACG, but that doesn't drive dealer business to them due to market perception.
If you don't think an inferior guarantee will impact market perception, once word gets out, I have nothing to tell you. Other than that early reaction in this thread suggests otherwise.
A couple of quick opinions:
First, I don't think NGC thought this through completely. When they do I see a shift in their thinking and tactic and likely will rescind this policy.
Actually that is my only opinion..
Market perceptions are changing right now. J.P. Martin
62 yrs in Coins, 42 yrs Certifying/Grading, CoinWorld's Most Influential People In Numismatics, 1960-2020. 30 consecutive yrs teaching ANA Summer seminar, Numismatic Ambassador award, 1998 Doctorate in Numismatics, Glenn Smedley Award, ANA Governor 2009/2011, Author/ Host of ANA's best selling video's, courses on grading & counterfeit detection. Taught over 1,100 paying students, Secret service agents, San Diego to Boston, Anchorage to Miami, including 2 coin cruise lecturer. many Free presentations. NLG book and video awards. ANA photographer, SEM operator, ASA Appraiser, Contributor to Redbook, Numismatist, Coin World, Numismatic News, ANA Grading Guides, 40,000 Volume Library, Founder ANAAB, ICG, 1995 ANA collector services appraisal/conservation, First full service Ancient coin grading service. Navy 75-77, WIU 77-81, Dealer1981-1984, ANA 1984-1998, 60 year Collector U.S./ 50 Year Ancient coins. ANA Advisory Committee. Life member ANA, ANS. Semi-retired grader in Denver area
Do TPGs authenticate that many coins that turn out to be counterfeit? It seems to me that NGC will lose more money in a reduction of submissions than paying off the occasional authenticated coin that turns out to be counterfeit.
Or they did and their PE overlords overruled them.
I can't imagine anyone at NGC who's been in the business longer than a week wouldn't have anticipated this reaction.
But then, that's just me.
No, not just you.
Tinfoil hat on...
Somebody at NGC knows something about what sort of counterfeits are coming down the pike...
tinfoil hat off.
And it rhymes with AI.
So does this mean there will be an influx of NGC coins coming up for sale? Will some people panic and just want to cut the potential losses before the big drop happens (if it does) instead of crossing?
Has anything like this ever happened before?
Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
I own NGC graded coins and their guarantee figured 0% in my decision to buy them.
FWIW...
I have never liked NGC.
No legacy guarantee ?
Whats the point ?
Top three to plastic fantastic.
Maybe they hope their faithful don't get the message & its biz as usual...
They'll continue rolling in the dough without consequences of their new philosophy as they think no one is paying attention...