Should auction listings include the date on which the guarantee expires or expired?

MrEureka · October 24, 2026 4:00PM

Now that NGC grade and authenticity guarantees are only good for 10 years, the date of expiration can be an important consideration. At the very least, I would think eBay would want to require the disclosure.

TrickleCharge · October 24, 2026 4:14PM

I was wondering why they started including the grade date on the certification page. Now I know why.

cameonut2011 · October 24, 2026 5:05PM

@MrEureka said:
Now that NGC grade and authenticity guarantees are only good for 10 years, the date of expiration can be an important consideration. At the very least, I would think eBay would want to require the disclosure.

Is this all coins or only copper? When did they drop that little gem? Before I would pay them to re-certify all my coins for liquidation, I would just cross all of them to a competitor.

cameonut2011 · October 24, 2026 5:07PM

I will treat all NGC coins as raw going forward.

retirednow · October 24, 2026 5:19PM

I can understand grade ... but authenticity is a bust. I agree with cameonut2011 above.

edwardjulio · October 24, 2026 5:26PM

Does NGC lack confidence in their graders/authenticators?

cameonut2011 · October 24, 2026 5:29PM

@edwardjulio said:
Does NGC lack confidence in their graders/authenticators?

It's the typical private equity model: Lie to your customers and promise them one thing, then don't deliver.

Most of my NGC coins were graded long ago and for them to retroactively void the guarantee seems fraudulent to me. No worries. I bought quality pieces so I will move them out of NGC plastic pronto. Thank goodness most are CACed and are guaranteed to cross to CACG.

NGC is no longer a top tier grading service IMHO. It joins ICG, ANACS, and PCI. Going forward PCGS and CACG only for me. I will treat the test as raw.

cameonut2011 · October 24, 2026 5:50PM

I can understand a limitation on the guarantee for copper and copper-nickel coins that can deteriorate in the slab. Initially, the NGC guarantee excepted those all together, but it was relaxed to a 10 year cut-off. The guarantee was made more generous not less, and I question whether NGC can legally retroactively amend its guarantee to include silver and gold coins. It would seem that NGC would be breaching its contract.

There are so many collectors out there attracted to the old no line fatty allure and frequently rumored stricter grading; however, there are a lot of instances of liberal grading in that period particularly with respect to PL coinage, and those collectors are now screwed.

lermish · October 24, 2026 6:31PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@edwardjulio said:
Does NGC lack confidence in their graders/authenticators?

Most of my NGC coins were graded long ago and for them to retroactively void the guarantee seems fraudulent to me.

I think that due to the deserved outcry and possible lawsuits they changed it so the 10 year time frame is only starting now and not retroactive to old coins.

Either way, absolutely despicable business practices from NGC. I hope they go out of business before they can be taken public and divested from their private equity overlords.

cameonut2011 · October 24, 2026 6:35PM

@lermish said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@edwardjulio said:
Does NGC lack confidence in their graders/authenticators?

Most of my NGC coins were graded long ago and for them to retroactively void the guarantee seems fraudulent to me.

I think that due to the deserved outcry and possible lawsuits they changed it so the 10 year time frame is only starting now and not retroactive to old coins.

Either way, absolutely despicable business practices from NGC. I hope they go out of business before they can be taken public and divested from their private equity overlords.

That is still legally dubious as the guarantee attaches at the grading event when the submitter paid the submission fee. Regardless, NGC can bite me.

cameonut2011 · October 24, 2026 7:50PM

@lermish :
I think that due to the deserved outcry and possible lawsuits they changed it so the 10 year time frame is only starting now and not retroactive to old coins.

Do you remember where you might have seen this? The website says 10 years from grading. It really does appear that NGC is trying to retroactively void the guarantee for all coins graded before 2016. I find this very sleazy.

jonathanb · October 24, 2026 8:14PM

Besides being a terrible look, I have a hard time understanding how this is actually supposed to save money for NGC.

I know that counterfeits will sometimes make it through slabbing. The micro-O Morgans are an obvious example, and more recently the bust dimes that were outed on this board. So clearly more than zero. Is it enough more than zero to be worth talking about?

Of the ones that get through, how many of those are still floating around after 10 years?

I wonder if this is an accounting issue, where NGC doesn't want to keep an unbounded liability on their books. That's legitimate. Or at least legitimate-ish, from a pure accounting perspective, ignoring their business model. I mean, Guaranty is right in their name.

:-(

cameonut2011 · October 24, 2026 8:26PM

@jonathanb said:
Besides being a terrible look, I have a hard time understanding how this is actually supposed to save money for NGC.

I know that counterfeits will sometimes make it through slabbing. The micro-O Morgans are an obvious example, and more recently the bust dimes that were outed on this board. So clearly more than zero. Is it enough more than zero to be worth talking about?

O the ones that get through, how many of those are still floating around after 10 years?

I wonder if this is an accounting issue, where NGC doesn't want to keep an unbounded liability on their books. That's legitimate. Or at least legitimate-ish, from a pure accounting perspective, ignoring their business model. I mean, Guaranty is right in their name.

:-(

I suspect the goal is to force a large number of regrades to renew the guarantee and generate revenue. I predict this will blow up in their face and have the opposite effect. I now see a NGC slab as a liability. The reputational damage done cannot be completely fixed even if it reverses course now.

BECOKA · October 24, 2026 8:34PM

Personally, I’m not sure it matters much to me. If I like a coin at auction, I’m going to bid on it regardless of when it was graded.

On color, as far as I know neither NGC nor PCGS guarantees copper color designations like RD or RB anymore, since copper can turn in the holder at any time. It’s long been up to the buyer to decide whether a coin still deserves its color designation.

For everything else under the new 10-year limit, it feels to me like a way to get collectors to keep sending coins back for regrading to renew the guarantee. What NGC actually guarantees, authenticity and an accurate grade at the time of grading, rarely changes while a coin sits in the holder. And the problems that do develop over time, like milk spots, haze, and PVC, are excluded from the guarantee no matter how old the slab is.

As for retroactivity, the guarantee page has no effective date or grandfathering language, so as written it seems to apply to every NGC slab. That would mean coins graded more than 10 years ago are no longer covered at all, even for authenticity or overgrading. If that’s the intent, I wonder whether there are legal issues with changing the terms on coins people already bought relying on the old guarantee.

lermish · October 24, 2026 8:42PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@lermish :
I think that due to the deserved outcry and possible lawsuits they changed it so the 10 year time frame is only starting now and not retroactive to old coins.

Do you remember where you might have seen this? The website says 10 years from grading. It really does appear that NGC is trying to retroactively void the guarantee for all coins graded before 2016. I find this very sleazy.

It was in a group chat of knowledgeable collectors but I did not read it myself which is why I said "I think". I'm confident my friends are correct but I can't lay my hands on a link to confirm it at the moment.

Unknown · October 25, 2026 1:01AM

This content has been removed.

WiscKau · October 25, 2026 4:15AM

@cameonut2011 said:

@edwardjulio said:
Does NGC lack confidence in their graders/authenticators?

It's the typical private equity model: Lie to your customers and promise them one thing, then don't deliver.

Most of my NGC coins were graded long ago and for them to retroactively void the guarantee seems fraudulent to me. No worries. I bought quality pieces so I will move them out of NGC plastic pronto. Thank goodness most are CACed and are guaranteed to cross to CACG.

**NGC is no longer a top tier grading service IMHO. It joins ICG, ANACS, and PCI. Going forward PCGS and CACG only for me. I will treat the test as raw. **

Too harsh I believe.

WiscKau · October 25, 2026 4:19AM

NGC is owned by a private equity firm.

My belief is they all had a company meeting and told NGC this is what you're going to do.

Boosibri · October 25, 2026 4:48AM

@WiscKau said:
NGC is owned by a private equity firm.

My belief is they all had a company meeting and told NGC this is what you're going to do.

I highly doubt that. It’s not really how BX operates in my experience.

I would guess that BX is looking to monetize NGC and their warranty liability needs disclosure on a potential S-1 or has the potential to be a diligence item in a sale. They are looking to cap it and NGC (not BX) chose poorly in how to execute.

Boosibri · October 25, 2026 4:52AM

Limiting the guarantee while sending email looking for graders. No experience required.

fathom · October 25, 2026 5:17AM

Yes, I think disclosure of new authentication policy is important.

Grading is fluid and sometimes a moving target. But authentication limits? That's a concern.

Not sure if that is a PE driven decision. Could be future tech related. Wasn't there a huge sportscard counterfeit ring uncovered?

MFeld · October 25, 2026 5:34AM

@Boosibri said:
Limiting the guarantee while sending email looking for graders. No experience required.

I don’t think the “No previous experience is necessary” is a big deal. It should have said “No previous professional grading experience is necessary.” But either way, there are probably many potential excellent graders out there, who, with training, could qualify. It’s better for NGC to have too many applicants than too few.

Zoins · October 25, 2026 6:04AM

@MrEureka said:
Now that NGC grade and authenticity guarantees are only good for 10 years, the date of expiration can be an important consideration. At the very least, I would think eBay would want to require the disclosure.

Does NGC have an automatic way to get this info at eBay's scale?

If not, would the individual sellers be responsible for posting the date?

cameonut2011 · October 25, 2026 6:07AM

@Zoins said:

@MrEureka said:
Now that NGC grade and authenticity guarantees are only good for 10 years, the date of expiration can be an important consideration. At the very least, I would think eBay would want to require the disclosure.

Does NGC have an automatic way to get this info at eBay's scale?

If not, would the individual sellers be responsible for posting the date?

I sure hope eBay removes it from its list of approved grading services. Every coin needs to be checked manually.

cameonut2011 · October 25, 2026 6:09AM

The PNG should ditch them too.

PerryHall · October 25, 2026 6:19AM

Is anyone here active on the NGC coin forums? If so, how are they reacting to this change of policy over there?

MFeld · October 25, 2026 6:29AM

@PerryHall said:
Is anyone here active on the NGC coin forums? If so, how are they reacting to this change of policy over there?

I post there occasionally and didn’t see a discussion on this topic. But I might have missed it, so I started a thread asking about it, a short while ago: https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/441027-can-someone-post-a-linklinks-to-discussions-regarding-the-changes-to-ngc’s-guarantee-i-must-have-missed-it/

cameonut2011 · October 25, 2026 6:36AM

@MFeld said:

@PerryHall said:
Is anyone here active on the NGC coin forums? If so, how are they reacting to this change of policy over there?

I post there occasionally and didn’t see a discussion on this topic. But I might have missed it, so I started a thread asking about it, a short while ago: https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/441027-can-someone-post-a-linklinks-to-discussions-regarding-the-changes-to-ngc’s-guarantee-i-must-have-missed-it/

There were a whopping 2 posts in a related thread. It really is dead over there.
https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/440990-anyone-notice-something-new-on-the-cert-verification-page/

fathom · October 25, 2026 9:11AM

Ebay could flag that new policy using software by photo image of slab, or description.

cameonut2011 · October 25, 2026 9:36AM

@MFeld

Is Heritage planning any change in policy with respect to NGC coins?

@ianrussell

Is GC planning any change in policy with respect to NGC coins?

fiftysevener · October 25, 2026 9:42AM

@cameonut2011 said:
I will treat all NGC coins as raw going forward.

Raw coins still sell. Certainly given that the holder is the highest quality without the raised parts that show even the slightest rub or scratch. Or how about the coin staying centered in the 'raw' holder rather than rattling around upside down. The raw coin holder may not have chipped edges or fins as well.
All joking aside I understand these changes will likely be industry wide over time and it just further exposes the risk taken upon purchase of collectables especially in the 5 or 6 figure dollar range.

Colonialcoin · October 25, 2026 9:42AM

What happens if NGC decides to shutdown?

Morgan13 · October 25, 2026 9:50AM

@cameonut2011 said:
@MFeld

Is Heritage planning any change in policy with respect to NGC coins?

@ianrussell

Is GC planning any change in policy with respect to NGC coins?

Thats a good question but I dont think its there responsibility to clarify 3rd party grading policy or even disclose it. Auction houses do not have long term guaratees. It is good that this information is in this thread as it is important. Pretty poor move especially for resale in the future of NGC coins.
Its been said that education is important especially for dopes like me.

MFeld · October 25, 2026 10:16AM

@cameonut2011 said:
@MFeld

Is Heritage planning any change in policy with respect to NGC coins?

@ianrussell

Is GC planning any change in policy with respect to NGC coins?

I’m not aware of any, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be any.

fathom · October 25, 2026 10:26AM

I'm pretty sure auction houses will have, if they do not already a disclaimer provision. Spelling out the sale of any TPG item and the authenticity guarantees and the specific termination periods.

Auctioning authentic merch is a big deal for the reputation of all parties involved.

MasonG · October 25, 2026 10:38AM

From Heritage's T&Cs:

COINS & CURRENCY TERM C: Coins sold referencing a third-party grading service are sold “as is”
without any express or implied warranty, except for a guarantee by Auctioneer that they are genuine.
Certain warranties may be available from the grading services and the Bidder is referred to them for
further details:

COINS & CURRENCY TERM F: Since we cannot examine encapsulated coins or notes, they are sold “as
is” without our grading opinion, and may not be returned for any reason. Auctioneer shall not be
liable for any patent or latent defect or controversy pertaining to or arising from any encapsulated
collectible. In any such instance, purchaser’s remedy, if any, shall be solely against the service
certifying the collectible.

FWIW...

KOYNGUY · October 25, 2026 11:16AM

Corporate entities do not like open ended liabilities no matter how likley they are. I do not see this as an indictment
as to NGC's athenticity while Rick montgomery is overseeing Authenticity. The real test will be whether any other service follows. Possibly the recent trend of reliance on graders vs Numismatist/Authenticators has had more of a negative impact than expected. I know ANACS does not presently intend to follow as we have the lowest buyback rate of any grading service. I wonder if this is to shield against changes in market acceptance of varieties like 1914/3 nickels, 1922 "NO D" cents, Proof vs Business strike calls. J.P. Martin

cameonut2011 · October 25, 2026 11:18AM

@KOYNGUY said:
Corporate entities do not like open ended liabilities no matter how likley they are.

Then don’t create them.

MrEureka · October 25, 2026 11:19AM

A couple of things to clarify.

First, just because NGC disclaims liability for coins graded more than 10 years ago doesn’t mean they won’t sometimes or even usually make good anyway. In fact, I’ve heard of a couple of cases of that happening just recently. (In both cases, the payments were significant and not completely unreasonable, but less than the owners thought was appropriate.)

And second, I really did want answers to the question I asked in the OP. To me, I don’t think it’s enough for an auction company to bury their disclaimers in the fine print. If a major coin auction firm is offering an NGC coin that was certified 10+ years ago, I think the lot description should include a warning that the NGC guarantee has expired. And if graded less than 10 years ago, it should say when.

KOYNGUY · October 25, 2026 11:33AM

Does CAC stcikering transfer any potential liability on a bad coin? J.P. Martin

cameonut2011 · October 25, 2026 11:39AM

@MrEureka said:
A couple of things to clarify.

First, just because NGC disclaims liability for coins graded more than 10 years ago doesn’t mean they won’t sometimes or even usually make good anyway. In fact, I’ve heard of a couple of cases of that happening just recently. (In both cases, the payments were significant and not completely unreasonable, but less than the owners thought was appropriate.)

And second, I really did want answers to the question I asked in the OP. To me, I don’t think it’s enough for an auction company to bury their disclaimers in the fine print. If a major coin auction firm is offering an NGC coin that was certified 10+ years ago, I think the lot description should include a warning that the NGC guarantee has expired. And if graded less than 10 years ago, it should say when.

I agree with you 100%.

U1chicago · October 25, 2026 11:46AM

@MrEureka said:
A couple of things to clarify.

First, just because NGC disclaims liability for coins graded more than 10 years ago doesn’t mean they won’t sometimes or even usually make good anyway. In fact, I’ve heard of a couple of cases of that happening just recently. (In both cases, the payments were significant and not completely unreasonable, but less than the owners thought was appropriate.)

And second, I really did want answers to the question I asked in the OP. To me, I don’t think it’s enough for an auction company to bury their disclaimers in the fine print. If a major coin auction firm is offering an NGC coin that was certified 10+ years ago, I think the lot description should include a warning that the NGC guarantee has expired. And if graded less than 10 years ago, it should say when.

The auction houses didn’t mention anything about copper coins or milk spots on Silver Eagles not being covered under the TPG guarantees. So I don’t think they will mention this either. It would be nice but I think the fine print is where it will remain buried.

MasonG · October 25, 2026 11:51AM

@MrEureka said:
To me, I don’t think it’s enough for an auction company to bury their disclaimers in the fine print.

I'm not an auction company so I can't say why they do the things they do, but it seems to me the purpose of having the fine print is to cover all the things that are common across their entire catalog of auction offerings and use the individual auction listing to describe that particular item. I suppose they could include the Terms and Conditions in every auction listing but that doesn't seem like it would be an improvement.

edited to add... The market values coins differently depending on the particular TPG holder, is that something that should be included in every description?

OnlyGoldIsMoney · October 25, 2026 2:35PM

@TrickleCharge said:
I was wondering why they started including the grade date on the certification page. Now I know why.

I mistakenly thought that NGC including the grading date was an improvement......until now.

KOYNGUY · October 25, 2026 3:50PM

WOW! Heard on another thread,
I did not know Rick Montgomery was retiring. I am unaware of a single talent that can replace him. I worked with him in the early-mid 1980's. He was the sharp and fast then and has only gotten better. True Numismatists are hard to replace. I am sure his influence has strengthed his grading room, just as his retirement weakens it.
I am semi-retired at ANACS, Mike Fahey makes the calls now, We all had our origins in early ANACS. Rick was the 18 year old kid then, fresh out of high school. Tom Delorey was 27, Mike Fahey was 26, I was 27, when we started. End of an ERA. J.P.Martin

MrEureka · October 25, 2026 4:42PM

@KOYNGUY said:
Does CAC stcikering transfer any potential liability on a bad coin? J.P. Martin

It doesn’t transfer liability from NGC to CAC, but it does transfer risk. By which I mean that if CAC takes a bad stickered coin off the market, it may no longer have any recourse with NGC. And if the market punishes the value of NGC coins because the guarantee is gone, then CAC will take a bigger loss when they sell the newly unstickered coin back into the market.

Zoins · October 25, 2026 6:27PM

@MrEureka said:
If a major coin auction firm is offering an NGC coin that was certified 10+ years ago, I think the lot description should include a warning that the NGC guarantee has expired. And if graded less than 10 years ago, it should say when.

Sometimes, auction houses will like to the TPG cert page.

Does anyone know what will happen with NGC Certificate Verification after 10 years? Does it stay up as now, does it stay up with a certificate lapsed message, or is it simply not certified and doesn't appear in the database lookup?

MetroD · October 25, 2026 6:38PM

@Zoins said:
Sometimes, auction houses will like to the TPG cert page.

Does anyone know what will happen with NGC Certificate Verification after 10 years? Does it stay up as now, does it stay up with a certificate lapsed message, or is it simply not certified and doesn't appear in the database lookup?

Sample size of one: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/1540145-168/69/

cameonut2011 · October 25, 2026 7:18PM

@MrEureka said:

@KOYNGUY said:
Does CAC stcikering transfer any potential liability on a bad coin? J.P. Martin

It doesn’t transfer liability from NGC to CAC, but it does transfer risk. By which I mean that if CAC takes a bad stickered coin off the market, it may no longer have any recourse with NGC. And if the market punishes the value of NGC coins because the guarantee is gone, then CAC will take a bigger loss when they sell the newly unstickered coin back into the market.

I wonder if CAC will change its policy in reviewing older NGC coins.

WinLoseWin · October 26, 2026 7:10AM

@MetroD said:

@Zoins said:
Sometimes, auction houses will like to the TPG cert page.

Does anyone know what will happen with NGC Certificate Verification after 10 years? Does it stay up as now, does it stay up with a certificate lapsed message, or is it simply not certified and doesn't appear in the database lookup?

Sample size of one: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/1540145-168/69/

I wonder why they keep this misleading statement near the bottom of the "Verify NGC Certification" page.

.
.

"NGC Guarantee

Every NGC-certified coin is backed by the industry-leading NGC Guarantee , which provides greater protection for both buyers and sellers"

Should auction listings include the date on which the guarantee expires or expired?

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