eBay's New Authenticity Guarantee and a counterfeit coin & slab sold- My real experience...
There are several threads here that have garnered so many responses they have become hard to follow imho. I have read plenty of speculation and what ifs, but this post is about my 1st completed example.
The subject of this post is a bad counterfeit 1881-CC "Morgan" in a fake NGC slab. Initially posted prior to the authenticity guarantee program I notified the seller it is a "double fake" and why. No actual response from him, I notified a friend at NGC and the cert was updated. The seller then ended the listing.
I actually did a segment on that week's Live Coin Q&A podcast; and then to my surprise 2 weeks later the seller relisted it under the authenticity guarantee:
So, I decided to purchase it and again message the seller. The back and forth and an interesting final note from him:
And the coin was mailed; I actually purchased it Sept2 and it traveled to sunny CA and had a review completed Sept 10.
eBay sent me the following note and the purchased updated, AND the listing removed "for a policy violation"...
So, it is my understanding the coin was being returned to the seller, but I was immediately credited my purchase price. Whether the authenticator actually looked at the coin or simply made the decision on the bad holder as they note in their language would be speculative on my part, but this is certainly a "double fake"!
And I have another interesting subject on the way to the authenticator since Sept 14, so maybe more to come...
Comments
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Thanks for the report. 👍
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I appreciate your sharing. I think this program is a very good step forward and I think your experience is instructive.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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So the Authenticity Program worked perfectly -- they identified a fake and the buyer (you) got a full refund. And hopefully the seller understands the jig is up and any further fraudulent selling will only be rejected by the Authenticity Guarantee program (unless they start listing items in different categories to circumvent the process).
Did I read that correctly that the seller claims they purchased this coin from the US Mint about a year ago?
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yes! the us mint!
Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions4 -
MsMorrisine,
I appreciate you sharing this! What did you see that indicated that the holder was fake? I see the red lines and circles you noted, but can you provide details? I'd like the education.
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Thanks so much for this thread.
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I wonder how Authentication would have gone if the Cert Lookup wasn't updated with the comment "POSSIBLE COUNTERFEIT HOLDER"
I hope it would have still failed inspection.
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Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.
My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/3 -
@DotStore said:
I wonder how Authentication would have gone if the Cert Lookup wasn't updated with the comment "POSSIBLE COUNTERFEIT HOLDER"I hope it would have still failed inspection.
Interesting point- I wonder if they actually look up the cert when they review the slab. If so, there are some where the cert is missing for one reason or another on the TPG's look-up like my next example going through the process
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@JDark said:
@DotStore said:
I wonder how Authentication would have gone if the Cert Lookup wasn't updated with the comment "POSSIBLE COUNTERFEIT HOLDER"I hope it would have still failed inspection.
Interesting point- I wonder if they actually look up the cert when they review the slab. If so, there are some where the cert is missing for one reason or another on the TPG's look-up like my next example going through the process
...I've been curious about that one. I still think it passes without issue. Thanks for keeping us posted.
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Encouraging.
Thank you for going through hassle, I think I speak for most here by saying that this is helpful and educational.6 -
@Desert Moon said:
Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.I wonder what eBay will do if the seller relists this coin with lower price?
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It appears that the registered trademark symbol ® is missing from the fake label insert next to NGC. It looks like a ciricle without the "R".
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...1 -
@davewesen said:
@Desert Moon said:
Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.I wonder what eBay will do if the seller relists this coin with lower price?
I will definitely watch for that! Interestingly eBay did eventually remove his 1st listing as I noted in my message to him, but it did not deter him from relisting this time...
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@Desert Moon said:
Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.Again, the imagined fee increase...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@JDark said:
@davewesen said:
@Desert Moon said:
Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.I wonder what eBay will do if the seller relists this coin with lower price?
I will definitely watch for that! Interestingly eBay did eventually remove his 1st listing as I noted in my message to him, but it did not deter him from relisting this time...
Was that the only listing that seller had over $500? I noticed that seller doesn't have anything listed over $500 at the moment.
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@Desert Moon said:
Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.I was wondering the same. Is there a threshold, like after x number of failed sales they get banned? It would be to ebay's benefit since it should reduce the number of fake coins they need to check.
Rare-Change.com - Low listing fee
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@DotStore said:
@JDark said:
@davewesen said:
@Desert Moon said:
Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.I wonder what eBay will do if the seller relists this coin with lower price?
I will definitely watch for that! Interestingly eBay did eventually remove his 1st listing as I noted in my message to him, but it did not deter him from relisting this time...
Was that the only listing that seller had over $500? I noticed that seller doesn't have anything listed over $500 at the moment.
Made me look! Interestingly he sold a $50K 1889-CC Morgan for $2750. eBay went in and removed the listing. It was apparently before the authenticity program.
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@Desert Moon said:
Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.I have seen this inference in other posts on this topic; I am curious what you mean by "will cost honest vendors more fees"???
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@JDark said:
@Desert Moon said:
Did ebay remove the vendor for obvious fraudulent listings of the same coin twice? This has been going on, on ebay for decades and they put in this authenticity guarantee only now? Okay ebay, do something about it, you have a fraudulent vendor identified, remove them. Permanently. Otherwise, this new program, that will cost honest vendors more fees, is only partly doing what it should be doing.I have seen this inference in other posts on this topic; I am curious what you mean by "will cost honest vendors more fees"???
He's insisting that ebay is gong to raise fees to pay for the program even though they never did for cards. It's just speculation masquerading as fact.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@TrickleCharge said:
@JDark said:
@DotStore said:
I wonder how Authentication would have gone if the Cert Lookup wasn't updated with the comment "POSSIBLE COUNTERFEIT HOLDER"I hope it would have still failed inspection.
Interesting point- I wonder if they actually look up the cert when they review the slab. If so, there are some where the cert is missing for one reason or another on the TPG's look-up like my next example going through the process
...I've been curious about that one. I still think it passes without issue. Thanks for keeping us posted.
if you are referring to the certified Henning I purchased with the guarantee, that did not go well...
I plan to discuss it on tomorrow evening's Live Coin Q&A podcast.
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If nothing else, the new eBay program has prompted a lot of posts on this forum!
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Anyone interested in my 2nd experience can see it live on FB Thursday evening on Live Coin Q&A:
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@JDark said:
Anyone interested in my 2nd experience can see it live on FB Thursday evening on Live Coin Q&A:My first watch of your show -- very entertaining thank you
I'm happy to see the Authenticity Guarantee process worked again!1 -
Very interesting result. Still lost of questions. How silly would it be if the PCGS authenticators failed a Machin's Mills in a PCGS slab?
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Let's assume that the PCGS authenticators pass raw or slabbed counterfeits like Machin's Mills, but deny others like Henning nickels. It would seem to me then that PCGS, independent of eBay, gets the final say on what types of counterfeits are allowed to be sold on eBay and which ones aren't.
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@TrickleCharge said:
Let's assume that the PCGS authenticators pass raw or slabbed counterfeits like Machin's Mills, but deny others like Henning nickels. It would seem to me then that PCGS, independent of eBay, gets the final say on what types of counterfeits are allowed to be sold on eBay and which ones aren't.There's a big difference between a Machin Mills and a Henning. The Henning is a counterfeit of a currently circulating coin. And neither PCGS nor NGC (CACG?) will slab the latter.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@jmlanzaf said:
@TrickleCharge said:
Let's assume that the PCGS authenticators pass raw or slabbed counterfeits like Machin's Mills, but deny others like Henning nickels. It would seem to me then that PCGS, independent of eBay, gets the final say on what types of counterfeits are allowed to be sold on eBay and which ones aren't.There's a big difference between a Machin Mills and a Henning. The Henning is a counterfeit of a currently circulating coin. And neither PCGS nor NGC (CACG?) will slab the latter.
Yes, but they both violate eBay policy. Why should PCGS get the final say instead of ICG?
Pass or fail shouldn't be determined solely by what PCGS chooses to slab.
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I think it would be so cool if eBay and other authenticators could confiscate/destroy these items to remove them from circulation as they could just bounce around or maybe be sold privately but I'm sure there is maybe laws or liability issues or something that probably prevents them from doing so.
🇺🇸 Harlequin
harlequinnumismatic@gmail.com
Home of the Americana Collection of USA silver coins0 -
@Harlequin said:
I think it would be so cool if eBay and other authenticators could confiscate/destroy these items to remove them from circulation as they could just bounce around or maybe be sold privately but I'm sure there is maybe laws or liability issues or something that probably prevents them from doing so.In theory that sounds great but even a fake is someone else's property and they can't destroy it.
Rare-Change.com - Low listing fee
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@Harlequin said:
I think it would be so cool if eBay and other authenticators could confiscate/destroy these items to remove them from circulation...Have eBay or other authenticators ever made a mistake when inspecting an item? If so, I'd think confiscation/destruction might not be the best way to proceed.
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Thanks for sharing your experience. I recently purchased my first coin going through eBay auth. It's on the way to the authenticator now. Hopefully this will be smooth, I don't foresee any issues as the coin has pics with the cert and they fully match. There's some pretty obvious toning spots that line up exactly with the pics on file so I don't have any worry about it's authenticity.
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My first ebay authentication item was sold last weekend; it was shipped on Monday to the West Coast, the next day it was shipped out and delivered to the customer today who is local to PCGS.
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One last try:
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@TrickleCharge said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@TrickleCharge said:
Let's assume that the PCGS authenticators pass raw or slabbed counterfeits like Machin's Mills, but deny others like Henning nickels. It would seem to me then that PCGS, independent of eBay, gets the final say on what types of counterfeits are allowed to be sold on eBay and which ones aren't.There's a big difference between a Machin Mills and a Henning. The Henning is a counterfeit of a currently circulating coin. And neither PCGS nor NGC (CACG?) will slab the latter.
Yes, but they both violate eBay policy. Why should PCGS get the final say instead of ICG?
Pass or fail shouldn't be determined solely by what PCGS chooses to slab.
Neither PCGS or eBay should have final say. The Feds should have final say. And the Machin's Mills coins aren't US cointerfeits.
I assume you also feel like Dan Carr creations should not be allowed?
I will say that if you list a Machin's Mills coin as a "counterfeit", eBay won't allow it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@jmlanzaf said:
@TrickleCharge said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@TrickleCharge said:
Let's assume that the PCGS authenticators pass raw or slabbed counterfeits like Machin's Mills, but deny others like Henning nickels. It would seem to me then that PCGS, independent of eBay, gets the final say on what types of counterfeits are allowed to be sold on eBay and which ones aren't.There's a big difference between a Machin Mills and a Henning. The Henning is a counterfeit of a currently circulating coin. And neither PCGS nor NGC (CACG?) will slab the latter.
Yes, but they both violate eBay policy. Why should PCGS get the final say instead of ICG?
Pass or fail shouldn't be determined solely by what PCGS chooses to slab.
Neither PCGS or eBay should have final say. The Feds should have final say. And the Machin's Mills coins aren't US cointerfeits.
I assume you also feel like Dan Carr creations should not be allowed?
I will say that if you list a Machin's Mills coin as a "counterfeit", eBay won't allow it.
Carr has found a loophole and his creations walk a very fine line.
If the feds had the final say, the omega counterfeit on GC wouldn't be there. Individual auction houses have their own interpretations of the law and choose what or what not to sell. eBay policy prohibits all counterfeits, not just federal issues. PCGS slabs some, but not all counterfeits. It muddies the water as to what is or isn't allowed through the eBay authentication process. Right now it would seem that for a counterfeit (raw or slabbed) to pass authentication on eBay, it needs to be one PCGS approves of.
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@JDark said:
One last try:Based on your last experiment, I think I know where this one is going. Appreciate you being the guinea pig though.
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I actually referred to myself in the last Live podcast as the "crash dummy"...
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And this is probably a bad sign
...
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@TrickleCharge said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@TrickleCharge said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@TrickleCharge said:
Let's assume that the PCGS authenticators pass raw or slabbed counterfeits like Machin's Mills, but deny others like Henning nickels. It would seem to me then that PCGS, independent of eBay, gets the final say on what types of counterfeits are allowed to be sold on eBay and which ones aren't.There's a big difference between a Machin Mills and a Henning. The Henning is a counterfeit of a currently circulating coin. And neither PCGS nor NGC (CACG?) will slab the latter.
Yes, but they both violate eBay policy. Why should PCGS get the final say instead of ICG?
Pass or fail shouldn't be determined solely by what PCGS chooses to slab.
Neither PCGS or eBay should have final say. The Feds should have final say. And the Machin's Mills coins aren't US cointerfeits.
I assume you also feel like Dan Carr creations should not be allowed?
I will say that if you list a Machin's Mills coin as a "counterfeit", eBay won't allow it.
Carr has found a loophole and his creations walk a very fine line.
If the feds had the final say, the omega counterfeit on GC wouldn't be there. Individual auction houses have their own interpretations of the law and choose what or what not to sell. eBay policy prohibits all counterfeits, not just federal issues. PCGS slabs some, but not all counterfeits. It muddies the water as to what is or isn't allowed through the eBay authentication process. Right now it would seem that for a counterfeit (raw or slabbed) to pass authentication on eBay, it needs to be one PCGS approves of.
I know the Feds don't prosecute any of the things you mention. But they should, it's what i said.
And if Dan Carr had a loophole, why isn't a counterfeit of a coin that is not legal tender anywhere in the world in an even bigger loophole.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vhBlBFfZVM
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