@MasonG said:
I understand some people do collect some counterfeits. But as far as counterfeiting laws go, is there really anything such as a legal counterfeit? Seems unlikely...
The Hobby Protection Act affected counterfeits made after it passed. Counterfeits already in existence aren’t violating it. You can’t try to spend counterfeits, but classic counterfeits aren’t illegal.
Yes, they are. They aren't covered by the HPA. But they are COUNTERFEIT coins and illegal as counterfeit coins even if they aren't illegal as copies or fantasies.
Can you cite a law/ruling that backs this up? I'd like to read the original text.
Yes, they are. They aren't covered by the HPA. But they are COUNTERFEIT coins and illegal as counterfeit coins even if they aren't illegal as copies or fantasies.
I guess eBay, PCGS and others have a definition of "counterfeit", and hopefully it is the same definition. In layman's terms, I understand a counterfeit to have one or more of the following characteristics:
The production was unauthorized. The coin was made by someone other than a legitimate government or mint.
The coin is deceptive. It is intentionally designed to look like a real coin so it can be spent or exchanged as if genuine.
The metallic value is lower. The counterfeit is typically made from cheaper materials than a real coin.
I remember a dealer once telling me that "a counterfeit is a fake, but a fake is not necessarily a counterfeit". His logic was that replica coins, even if they are not stamped "replica", are fakes. But they are not counterfeits because they were not meant to deceive. So it seems like there is wiggle room in the above definition.
It's defined in the US Code for everyone.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Section 18 USC 485 Coins or Bars: This section says that anyone who "passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin" shall be fined or imprisoned, but does not define the word "counterfeit".
Section 18 USC 487 Making or possessing counterfeit dies for coins: This section makes it unlawful to possess counterfeit dies for the purpose of producing counterfeit coins, but again does not define the word "counterfeit".
Section 18 USC 489 Making or possessing likeness of coins: This section makes it unlawful to "make or bring from any foreign country, or possess with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner use the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money."
Section 18 USD 491 This section makes it unlawful to "make, issue, or pass any coin, card, token, or device in metal, or its compounds, intended to be used as money ... or other thing similar in size and shape to any of the lawful coins or other currency of the United States."
There are 167 sections in the US Code that mention the word "counterfeit". It's possible there is a definition hidden in there somewhere. But ChatGPT and Claude both say that there is no specific definition. And they both go on to say that while Congress never confirmed what counterfeit means, courts have generally held that a coin is counterfeit if it's made to deceptively resemble genuine U.S. or circulating foreign coinage.
Section 18 USC 485 Coins or Bars: This section says that anyone who "passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin" shall be fined or imprisoned, but does not define the word "counterfeit".
That's an incredibly selective quote. Here's the whole thing, emphasis mine:
"Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
"Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
"Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both."
The second paragraph requires the person in question to know the coin is counterfeit AND have intent to defraud. That's far, far different from saying the person holding the coin shall be fined or imprisoned without any other qualifications to the situation.
@airplanenut said:
The second paragraph requires the person in question to know the coin is counterfeit AND have intent to defraud. That's far, far different from saying the person holding the coin shall be fined or imprisoned without any other qualifications to the situation.
Section 18 USC 489 doesn't say anything about intent to defraud, but it does provide for penalties for possession.
edited to add...
"Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title."
@airplanenut said:
The second paragraph requires the person in question to know the coin is counterfeit AND have intent to defraud. That's far, far different from saying the person holding the coin shall be fined or imprisoned without any other qualifications to the situation.
Section 18 USC 489 doesn't say anything about intent to defraud, but it does provide for penalties for possession.
edited to add...
"Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title."
It also implicitly defines counterfeit in that section
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
And who are their experts, and what happens when something is outside the expertise of all of their experts? When I was at ANACS we had a pool of consultants we could lean on for things like Indian Peace Medals, Colonials, Territorials, Ancients, etc. We ate the shipping costs in the interests of being accurate.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
@CaptHenway said:
And who are their experts, and what happens when something is outside the expertise of all of their experts? When I was at ANACS we had a pool of consultants we could lean on for things like Indian Peace Medals, Colonials, Territorials, Ancients, etc. We ate the shipping costs in the interests of being accurate.
Does PCGS have the experts to evaluate ancient coins or do they have to send them to NGC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@CaptHenway said:
And who are their experts, and what happens when something is outside the expertise of all of their experts? When I was at ANACS we had a pool of consultants we could lean on for things like Indian Peace Medals, Colonials, Territorials, Ancients, etc. We ate the shipping costs in the interests of being accurate.
You doubt that PCGS has the ability to handle these things?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@CaptHenway said:
And who are their experts, and what happens when something is outside the expertise of all of their experts? When I was at ANACS we had a pool of consultants we could lean on for things like Indian Peace Medals, Colonials, Territorials, Ancients, etc. We ate the shipping costs in the interests of being accurate.
Regarding the shipping costs -- as a seller before the Authenticity Guarantee process you would have to ship the coin to the buyer. And now if the coin goes through the Authenticity Guarantee process, you ship to PCGS instead for their review. There's only one shipping cost to the seller.
From experience selling cards through the Authenticity Guarantee, my shipping costs actually went down. That is because if I was shipping to some random buyer with 0 feedback who might pull some shenanigans, I would always add full insurance. Now when I am shipping to PSA (for cards), I don't always add full insurance depending on how risk averse I feel on the card I am selling. In other words, I trust sending to PSA more then I do shipping to some random eBayer who has 0 feedback.
@CaptHenway said:
And who are their experts, and what happens when something is outside the expertise of all of their experts? When I was at ANACS we had a pool of consultants we could lean on for things like Indian Peace Medals, Colonials, Territorials, Ancients, etc. We ate the shipping costs in the interests of being accurate.
You doubt that PCGS has the ability to handle these things?
No, but the additional exposure to USPS unsettles me.
@PerryHall said:
Does PCGS have the experts to evaluate ancient coins or do they have to send them to NGC?
The authenticity program only evaluates graded ancient or world coins over $500. Raw ancient/world coins of any value would not fall under the program.
@CaptHenway said:
And who are their experts, and what happens when something is outside the expertise of all of their experts? When I was at ANACS we had a pool of consultants we could lean on for things like Indian Peace Medals, Colonials, Territorials, Ancients, etc. We ate the shipping costs in the interests of being accurate.
You doubt that PCGS has the ability to handle these things?
No, but the additional exposure to USPS unsettles me.
As a seller you ship to PCGS however you want (USPS, FedEx, etc.). They then ship to the buyer using FedEx, or USPS if to a PO box. If the package goes missing in transit from the PCGS authenticator to the buyer it is fully insured. There is no real additional exposure to the seller.
@TrickleCharge said:
As a seller you ship to PCGS however you want (USPS, FedEx, etc.). They then ship to the buyer using FedEx, or USPS if to a PO box. If the package goes missing in transit from the PCGS authenticator to the buyer it is fully insured. There is no real additional exposure to the seller.
Seems safer shipping to a facility devoted to handling coins than to an apartment building where packages get left on a table in a common area for the recipient to pick up or set on on somebody's doorstep because they're at work.
@TrickleCharge said:
As a seller you ship to PCGS however you want (USPS, FedEx, etc.). They then ship to the buyer using FedEx, or USPS if to a PO box. If the package goes missing in transit from the PCGS authenticator to the buyer it is fully insured. There is no real additional exposure to the seller.
Seems safer shipping to a facility devoted to handling coins than to an apartment building where packages get left on a table in a common area for the recipient to pick up or set on on somebody's doorstep because they're at work.
But maybe that's just me.
I would think so. It's not much different than the thousands of packages PCGS receives already.
Perhaps I do not understand the process. If I buy a raw 1922-D cent of a rare die variety and/or die state for $1,000 on the Bay, the seller sends it to PCGS who then looks at it, says yeah, this is genuine and then forwards it on to me.
Do they send it to me raw or slabbed?
If slabbed, how can I get the variety acknowledged?
Another scenario. I spot an unlisted Thomas L. Elder item on the Bay and buy it for $1,000 because I am the "World's Foremost Authority" on Thomas L. Elder items. The seller sends it to a TPG, who cannot authenticate it because they do not know what I know, AND because it is not "listed in DeLorey." I am DeLorey. Now what?
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
@CaptHenway said:
Perhaps I do not understand the process. If I buy a raw 1922-D cent of a rare die variety and/or die state for $1,000 on the Bay, the seller sends it to PCGS who then looks at it, says yeah, this is genuine and then forwards it on to me.
Do they send it to me raw or slabbed?
If slabbed, how can I get the variety acknowledged?
Another scenario. I spot an unlisted Thomas L. Elder item on the Bay and buy it for $1,000 because I am the "World's Foremost Authority" on Thomas L. Elder items. The seller sends it to a TPG, who cannot authenticate it because they do not know what I know, AND because it is not "listed in DeLorey." I am DeLorey. Now what?
They do not holder the raw coin. They only verify the coin is genuine and was accurately listed on ebay.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@CaptHenway said:
Perhaps I do not understand the process. If I buy a raw 1922-D cent of a rare die variety and/or die state for $1,000 on the Bay, the seller sends it to PCGS who then looks at it, says yeah, this is genuine and then forwards it on to me.
Do they send it to me raw or slabbed?
If slabbed, how can I get the variety acknowledged?
Another scenario. I spot an unlisted Thomas L. Elder item on the Bay and buy it for $1,000 because I am the "World's Foremost Authority" on Thomas L. Elder items. The seller sends it to a TPG, who cannot authenticate it because they do not know what I know, AND because it is not "listed in DeLorey." I am DeLorey. Now what?
Depending on how the item is listed, it might not go through the Authenticity Guarantee process. I just did a search on some of your key words, and even though they met the dollar threshold (above $500), they must have been in a category that does not go through the Authenticity process (such as Bullion, or some other category). In that case, it would be business as usual for buying and selling as you do today (i.e. not going through Authentication).
@PerryHall said:
Does PCGS have the experts to evaluate ancient coins or do they have to send them to NGC?
The horror...:o
A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
@cameonut2011 said:
Nothing helps a new business on tight margins quite like a business that skims an extra 10-15% off for providing software and that had no input into the description, images, etc.
Small businesses love to pay eBay and Amazon (who takes at least 20%) because it would cost them FAR more to do it without them.
It's not even arguable that thousands or maybes millions of small businesses were launched on those two platforms.
I am a small buisness owner and you are incorrect. It costs me a very small fee to have my own website in comparison to feepay fees if I sold there. My margins are so low that paying feepay fees would close my buisness. So it depends on the buisness which is something you have chosen to ignore in your posts on the issue of where to sell numismatic items. Your posts, 100s of them by now, imply that the only place one can have an online presence for selling numimatic items successfully, is feepay. Yet, w/o feepay, I am doing extremely well, actually very, nicely, extremely well, go figure....................... If fact, I am one of 100s to 1000s that don't do feepay for selling numismatics items and do quite well. Golly.
So sure, your statement above (millions if of course a stretch to glorify the concept), that maybes (sic) thousands of small buisnesses have 'launched' on these two platforms (active voice, not passive), maybes true, but it does not account for the thousands of successful online buisness owners that avoid them like the plague................
Many ways to successfully sell numismatic items online other than feepay.
@Desert Moon said:
So it depends on the buisness which is something you have chosen to ignore in your posts on the issue of where to sell numismatic items. Your posts, 100s of them by now, imply that the only place one can have an online presence for selling numimatic items successfully, is feepay.
I don't think he's ignoring anything. I think you are misstating the position @jmlanzaf has regularly expressed here regarding eBay.
@cameonut2011 said:
Nothing helps a new business on tight margins quite like a business that skims an extra 10-15% off for providing software and that had no input into the description, images, etc.
Small businesses love to pay eBay and Amazon (who takes at least 20%) because it would cost them FAR more to do it without them.
It's not even arguable that thousands or maybes millions of small businesses were launched on those two platforms.
I am a small buisness owner and you are incorrect. It costs me a very small fee to have my own website in comparison to feepay fees if I sold there. My margins are so low that paying feepay fees would close my buisness. So it depends on the buisness which is something you have chosen to ignore in your posts on the issue of where to sell numismatic items. Your posts, 100s of them by now, imply that the only place one can have an online presence for selling numimatic items successfully, is feepay. Yet, w/o feepay, I am doing extremely well, actually very, nicely, extremely well, go figure....................... If fact, I am one of 100s to 1000s that don't do feepay for selling numismatics items and do quite well. Golly.
So sure, your statement above (millions if of course a stretch to glorify the concept), that maybes (sic) thousands of small buisnesses have 'launched' on these two platforms (active voice, not passive), maybes true, but it does not account for the thousands of successful online buisness owners that avoid them like the plague................
Many ways to successfully sell numismatic items online other than feepay.
None of that has anything to do with what I said. Amazon and eBay have launched more small retail businesses than any other platform. They've also launched more businesses than were launched without them. That doesn't remotely imply that all businesses were launched on those platforms.
You might also note that numerous small businesses that have independent operations also have footprints on eBay and/or Amazon.
And you can certainly launch a website for very little money. What you can't get is all the other services without spending money. Your website has, for example, zero seller or buyer protections associated with it. For zero money, you also don't get any of the promotions that eBay provides or national/international advertising. So, you get what you pay for.
I, and millions like me, are not going to send a check to you and then allow you to wait for it to clear before you ship. I, and millions like me, will buy on eBay or Amazon without giving it a second thought because we won't have to wait for shipment or clearance and we have charge back and other options available to us. You seem to think that those protections have no value, but they are the reason so many millions or people actively shop on the two platforms. I pay 9% in eBay fees and payment processing alone on my private website (now defunct) was 3.5%.
I routinely offer people 3.5% extra to take PayPal payment on the BST or, in your case, on your website. If you refuse, I wouldn't buy anything from you because of that lack of protection. I am NOT alone in this. I would only ever write a check to someone i know well because of the lack of recourse if something goes wrong.
So, you can keep hating eBay - and you will. But that ignores the very reasons that eBay (and Amazon) have been incredibly successful for themselves, their business partners, and their customers.
And, no, I don't think "millions" is a stretch. Look how many sellers those platforms have. Many of those millions are part-timers and amateurs. However, they do count.
Keep on hating...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Desert Moon said:
So it depends on the buisness which is something you have chosen to ignore in your posts on the issue of where to sell numismatic items. Your posts, 100s of them by now, imply that the only place one can have an online presence for selling numimatic items successfully, is feepay.
I don't think he's ignoring anything. I think you are misstating the position @jmlanzaf has regularly expressed here regarding eBay.
Yeah. But he has to deny the success of eBay for tens of thousands of numismatic sellers (including probably half of this forum) in order to make his point.
I sold $80,000 in 2026 Mint sets in 3 weeks on eBay. How many would I have sold on a private website? And what protections would I or my customers have. I will guarantee I have more traffic on eBay than he has on his vaunted website which doesn't even have payment processing. In this day and age, with all the scams out there, how many people will send the equivalent of cash to an unknown quantity?
I had a private website. I closed it down because it was only marginally cheaper than eBay and gave me none of the services eBay (and Amazon when I sold there) gave me.
Does that mean that's the ONLY way? No. But even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc. I guess they are all morons that don't understand that their private websites are sooo much better.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf
"even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc."
True, and a lot of these guys, big or small will offer you a better price if you buy off of their website (to avoid a portion/all of eBay's fees).
@Desert Moon have you considered expanding your online presence on the bay?
I should have searched first.
(Although my question above was mostly rhetorical.)
"No, there are no countries today that prescribe or carry out hand amputation specifically as a legal punishment for passing or making counterfeit currency.While some nations apply strict Sharia-based corporal punishments like amputation for specific definitions of physical theft (qat' al-sariqah), currency counterfeiting is universally prosecuted under specialized statutory penal codes rather than traditional theft laws. For example, in Saudi Arabia—which historically utilizes judicial corporal punishment for certain crimes—counterfeiting or knowingly circulating fake money is explicitly governed by the Saudi Money Counterfeiting Law, which carries standard modern legal penalties consisting of substantial fines and long-term imprisonment of up to 25 years, rather than physical mutilation. Across the globe, passing fake bills results in heavy fines and imprisonment (such as up to 20 years in the United States or 5 years in Saudi Arabia for possession), but no country employs judicial amputation for the offense."
Slow as heck. If they're gonna delay the delivery of my package by a week they should pony up for overnight. Annoying. I don't need them to tell me a GSA Morgan or already certified coin is real. I just need them to trust me when I say it's fake, as a professional.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I don't get the certified coin "authenticity guarantee" requirement. If you're selling raw over $500 that would make some sense, or a seller with a low rating with counterfeit claims and returns.
@logger7 said:
I don't get the certified coin "authenticity guarantee" requirement. If you're selling raw over $500 that would make some sense, or a seller with a low rating with counterfeit claims and returns.
Probably because so many certified coins are actually counterfeit pieces in counterfeit holders.
@logger7 said:
I don't get the certified coin "authenticity guarantee" requirement. If you're selling raw over $500 that would make some sense, or a seller with a low rating with counterfeit claims and returns.
Probably because so many certified coins are actually counterfeit pieces in counterfeit holders.
Haven't the ebay listings of counterfeits of fake PCGS and NGC holders been by sketchy sellers with limited or problem feedback? Also why are they doing this with Anacs and ICG certified coins, have there been any counferfeits over $500 sold in those holders?
@logger7 said:
I don't get the certified coin "authenticity guarantee" requirement. If you're selling raw over $500 that would make some sense, or a seller with a low rating with counterfeit claims and returns.
Probably because so many certified coins are actually counterfeit pieces in counterfeit holders.
Haven't the ebay listings of counterfeits of fake PCGS and NGC holders been by sketchy sellers with limited or problem feedback? Also why are they doing this with Anacs and ICG certified coins, have there been any counferfeits over $500 sold in those holders?
No. Fake slabs are mostly from sketchy sellers, but not all. It also looks that the coins match the listing.
Turns out people prefer that ebay do nothing about fakes and scam artists.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
Turns out people prefer that ebay do nothing about fakes and scam artists.
I don't know- I think they'd like eBay to 'Do Something', as long as that something doesn't mean it takes longer to get their purchase delivered or cost them anything. And some would also like eBay to limit their scrutiny to bad counterfeits, not the good ones they collect.
@jmlanzaf said:
Turns out people prefer that ebay do nothing about fakes and scam artists.
I don't know- I think they'd like eBay to 'Do Something', as long as that something doesn't mean it takes longer to get their purchase delivered or cost them anything. And some would also like eBay to limit their scrutiny to bad counterfeits, not the good ones they collect.
I was being sarcastic.
I don't want ebay pulling listings based on self-declared experts looking at bad photos. They found a way to put expert eyes on the coins and I'm willing to live with the slight imperfections to improve (not perfect) the site. And they did at at zero cost to buyers or sellers. Two thumbs up.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Rc5280 said: @jmlanzaf
"even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc."
True, and a lot of these guys, big or small will offer you a better price if you buy off of their website (to avoid a portion/all of eBay's fees).
@Desert Moon have you considered expanding your online presence on the bay?
Zero chance, 1, security, 2, fees, 3, ebay overlord rules that one has to abide by. Many highly recognized numismatic dealers don't use ebay. After a few months of research on how I wanted to start an online coin store, I chose to not make connections with ebay. It reminds me too much of working at universities for decades where they put loads of barriers in your way to success. I have been quite successful without dealing with them. Why would I want to suffer under their regime? Sure it makes sense for certain kinds of inventory. But not mine....................
@jmlanzaf
"even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc."
Should read - "Some large commerical ventures". Again you overstate the point, not all do, only some..............
@jmlanzaf
"even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc."
Should read - "Some large commerical ventures". Again you overstate the point, not all do, only some..............
I never said "all". I only "overstate" the point when you keep inserting words that aren't there.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Rc5280 said: @jmlanzaf
"even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc."
True, and a lot of these guys, big or small will offer you a better price if you buy off of their website (to avoid a portion/all of eBay's fees).
@Desert Moon have you considered expanding your online presence on the bay?
Zero chance, 1, security, 2, fees, 3, ebay overlord rules that one has to abide by. Many highly recognized numismatic dealers don't use ebay. After a few months of research on how I wanted to start an online coin store, I chose to not make connections with ebay. It reminds me too much of working at universities for decades where they put loads of barriers in your way to success. I have been quite successful without dealing with them. Why would I want to suffer under their regime? Sure it makes sense for certain kinds of inventory. But not mine....................
Similar coins to what you offer sell every day on eBay. It's not that your inventory can't be sold on eBay successfully, it's that you chose not to.
How is eBay absorbing the added costs? Does anyone have an estimate of how much they're having to pay for the detour to PCGS, the crew that takes the package apart, then assesses whether the coin is counterfeit or not, and then repackages the shipment, pays for yet more shipping, etc.? How will they pay for this?
@logger7 said:
How is eBay absorbing the added costs? Does anyone have an estimate of how much they're having to pay for the detour to PCGS, the crew that takes the package apart, then assesses whether the coin is counterfeit or not, and then repackages the shipment, pays for yet more shipping, etc.? How will they pay for this?
Part of that cost is probably offset by reducing the amount of charge backs and time spent mediating cases where someone either claimed or was sent something other than what they ordered. They have done this with cards for years, so the benefits must outweigh the costs or else they would have axed the program a while ago instead of expanding it.
@logger7 said:
How is eBay absorbing the added costs? Does anyone have an estimate of how much they're having to pay for the detour to PCGS, the crew that takes the package apart, then assesses whether the coin is counterfeit or not, and then repackages the shipment, pays for yet more shipping, etc.? How will they pay for this?
For coins that are going through the Authenticity Guarantee process, the SELLER is shipping the coin directly to PCGS. PCGS will do the validation, and then PCGS will take care of shipping the coin to the BUYER. The Seller only pays one shipping fee (to PCGS). I do not know what costs are associated with having PCGS inspect the coin, and then shipping it to the buyer.
@Rc5280 said: @jmlanzaf
"even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc."
True, and a lot of these guys, big or small will offer you a better price if you buy off of their website (to avoid a portion/all of eBay's fees).
@Desert Moon have you considered expanding your online presence on the bay?
Zero chance, 1, security, 2, fees, 3, ebay overlord rules that one has to abide by. Many highly recognized numismatic dealers don't use ebay. After a few months of research on how I wanted to start an online coin store, I chose to not make connections with ebay. It reminds me too much of working at universities for decades where they put loads of barriers in your way to success. I have been quite successful without dealing with them. Why would I want to suffer under their regime? Sure it makes sense for certain kinds of inventory. But not mine....................
Similar coins to what you offer sell every day on eBay. It's not that your inventory can't be sold on eBay successfully, it's that you chose not to.
Don't poke the bear. 😂
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Comments
Can you cite a law/ruling that backs this up? I'd like to read the original text.
It's defined in the US Code for everyone.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
People will argue about what's defined there, too, you know...
FWIW.
Section 18 USC 485 Coins or Bars: This section says that anyone who "passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin" shall be fined or imprisoned, but does not define the word "counterfeit".
Section 18 USC 487 Making or possessing counterfeit dies for coins: This section makes it unlawful to possess counterfeit dies for the purpose of producing counterfeit coins, but again does not define the word "counterfeit".
Section 18 USC 489 Making or possessing likeness of coins: This section makes it unlawful to "make or bring from any foreign country, or possess with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner use the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money."
Section 18 USD 491 This section makes it unlawful to "make, issue, or pass any coin, card, token, or device in metal, or its compounds, intended to be used as money ... or other thing similar in size and shape to any of the lawful coins or other currency of the United States."
There are 167 sections in the US Code that mention the word "counterfeit". It's possible there is a definition hidden in there somewhere. But ChatGPT and Claude both say that there is no specific definition. And they both go on to say that while Congress never confirmed what counterfeit means, courts have generally held that a coin is counterfeit if it's made to deceptively resemble genuine U.S. or circulating foreign coinage.
For those wishing to look for themselves, the US Code is here: https://uscode.house.gov/browse.xhtml
That's an incredibly selective quote. Here's the whole thing, emphasis mine:
"Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
"Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
"Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both."
The second paragraph requires the person in question to know the coin is counterfeit AND have intent to defraud. That's far, far different from saying the person holding the coin shall be fined or imprisoned without any other qualifications to the situation.
Section 18 USC 489 doesn't say anything about intent to defraud, but it does provide for penalties for possession.
edited to add...
"Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title."
It also implicitly defines counterfeit in that section
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It certainly looks like it does.
And who are their experts, and what happens when something is outside the expertise of all of their experts? When I was at ANACS we had a pool of consultants we could lean on for things like Indian Peace Medals, Colonials, Territorials, Ancients, etc. We ate the shipping costs in the interests of being accurate.
For coins they are using PCGS
Does PCGS have the experts to evaluate ancient coins or do they have to send them to NGC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You doubt that PCGS has the ability to handle these things?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Regarding the shipping costs -- as a seller before the Authenticity Guarantee process you would have to ship the coin to the buyer. And now if the coin goes through the Authenticity Guarantee process, you ship to PCGS instead for their review. There's only one shipping cost to the seller.
From experience selling cards through the Authenticity Guarantee, my shipping costs actually went down. That is because if I was shipping to some random buyer with 0 feedback who might pull some shenanigans, I would always add full insurance. Now when I am shipping to PSA (for cards), I don't always add full insurance depending on how risk averse I feel on the card I am selling. In other words, I trust sending to PSA more then I do shipping to some random eBayer who has 0 feedback.
No, but the additional exposure to USPS unsettles me.
Bottom line, apparently:
"I don't know how eBay is running the program, so it's not going to work."
The authenticity program only evaluates graded ancient or world coins over $500. Raw ancient/world coins of any value would not fall under the program.
As a seller you ship to PCGS however you want (USPS, FedEx, etc.). They then ship to the buyer using FedEx, or USPS if to a PO box. If the package goes missing in transit from the PCGS authenticator to the buyer it is fully insured. There is no real additional exposure to the seller.
Seems safer shipping to a facility devoted to handling coins than to an apartment building where packages get left on a table in a common area for the recipient to pick up or set on on somebody's doorstep because they're at work.
But maybe that's just me.
I would think so. It's not much different than the thousands of packages PCGS receives already.
Perhaps I do not understand the process. If I buy a raw 1922-D cent of a rare die variety and/or die state for $1,000 on the Bay, the seller sends it to PCGS who then looks at it, says yeah, this is genuine and then forwards it on to me.
Do they send it to me raw or slabbed?
If slabbed, how can I get the variety acknowledged?
Another scenario. I spot an unlisted Thomas L. Elder item on the Bay and buy it for $1,000 because I am the "World's Foremost Authority" on Thomas L. Elder items. The seller sends it to a TPG, who cannot authenticate it because they do not know what I know, AND because it is not "listed in DeLorey." I am DeLorey. Now what?
They do not holder the raw coin. They only verify the coin is genuine and was accurately listed on ebay.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Depending on how the item is listed, it might not go through the Authenticity Guarantee process. I just did a search on some of your key words, and even though they met the dollar threshold (above $500), they must have been in a category that does not go through the Authenticity process (such as Bullion, or some other category). In that case, it would be business as usual for buying and selling as you do today (i.e. not going through Authentication).
It took 3 weeks to get my coin but side from that everything was seamless. The packaging was a bit more than i"m used to
I also received my first package today - identical packaging. Purchased 9/8 and delivered by Fedex on 9/17.
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The horror...:o
A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
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I am a small buisness owner and you are incorrect. It costs me a very small fee to have my own website in comparison to feepay fees if I sold there. My margins are so low that paying feepay fees would close my buisness. So it depends on the buisness which is something you have chosen to ignore in your posts on the issue of where to sell numismatic items. Your posts, 100s of them by now, imply that the only place one can have an online presence for selling numimatic items successfully, is feepay. Yet, w/o feepay, I am doing extremely well, actually very, nicely, extremely well, go figure....................... If fact, I am one of 100s to 1000s that don't do feepay for selling numismatics items and do quite well. Golly.
So sure, your statement above (millions if of course a stretch to glorify the concept), that maybes (sic) thousands of small buisnesses have 'launched' on these two platforms (active voice, not passive), maybes true, but it does not account for the thousands of successful online buisness owners that avoid them like the plague................
Many ways to successfully sell numismatic items online other than feepay.
I don't think he's ignoring anything. I think you are misstating the position @jmlanzaf has regularly expressed here regarding eBay.
None of that has anything to do with what I said. Amazon and eBay have launched more small retail businesses than any other platform. They've also launched more businesses than were launched without them. That doesn't remotely imply that all businesses were launched on those platforms.
You might also note that numerous small businesses that have independent operations also have footprints on eBay and/or Amazon.
And you can certainly launch a website for very little money. What you can't get is all the other services without spending money. Your website has, for example, zero seller or buyer protections associated with it. For zero money, you also don't get any of the promotions that eBay provides or national/international advertising. So, you get what you pay for.
I, and millions like me, are not going to send a check to you and then allow you to wait for it to clear before you ship. I, and millions like me, will buy on eBay or Amazon without giving it a second thought because we won't have to wait for shipment or clearance and we have charge back and other options available to us. You seem to think that those protections have no value, but they are the reason so many millions or people actively shop on the two platforms. I pay 9% in eBay fees and payment processing alone on my private website (now defunct) was 3.5%.
I routinely offer people 3.5% extra to take PayPal payment on the BST or, in your case, on your website. If you refuse, I wouldn't buy anything from you because of that lack of protection. I am NOT alone in this. I would only ever write a check to someone i know well because of the lack of recourse if something goes wrong.
So, you can keep hating eBay - and you will. But that ignores the very reasons that eBay (and Amazon) have been incredibly successful for themselves, their business partners, and their customers.
And, no, I don't think "millions" is a stretch. Look how many sellers those platforms have. Many of those millions are part-timers and amateurs. However, they do count.
Keep on hating...
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Yeah. But he has to deny the success of eBay for tens of thousands of numismatic sellers (including probably half of this forum) in order to make his point.
I sold $80,000 in 2026 Mint sets in 3 weeks on eBay. How many would I have sold on a private website? And what protections would I or my customers have. I will guarantee I have more traffic on eBay than he has on his vaunted website which doesn't even have payment processing. In this day and age, with all the scams out there, how many people will send the equivalent of cash to an unknown quantity?
I had a private website. I closed it down because it was only marginally cheaper than eBay and gave me none of the services eBay (and Amazon when I sold there) gave me.
Does that mean that's the ONLY way? No. But even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc. I guess they are all morons that don't understand that their private websites are sooo much better.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf
"even large commercial ventures that have their own websites also cross-list on eBay including numismatic giants like Apmex, JM Bullion, Pinehurst, etc."
True, and a lot of these guys, big or small will offer you a better price if you buy off of their website (to avoid a portion/all of eBay's fees).
@Desert Moon have you considered expanding your online presence on the bay?
Are there not countries even today that'll cut off your hand if you attempt to knowingly, pass a counterfeit coin (or bill)?
I should have searched first.
(Although my question above was mostly rhetorical.)
"No, there are no countries today that prescribe or carry out hand amputation specifically as a legal punishment for passing or making counterfeit currency.While some nations apply strict Sharia-based corporal punishments like amputation for specific definitions of physical theft (qat' al-sariqah), currency counterfeiting is universally prosecuted under specialized statutory penal codes rather than traditional theft laws. For example, in Saudi Arabia—which historically utilizes judicial corporal punishment for certain crimes—counterfeiting or knowingly circulating fake money is explicitly governed by the Saudi Money Counterfeiting Law, which carries standard modern legal penalties consisting of substantial fines and long-term imprisonment of up to 25 years, rather than physical mutilation. Across the globe, passing fake bills results in heavy fines and imprisonment (such as up to 20 years in the United States or 5 years in Saudi Arabia for possession), but no country employs judicial amputation for the offense."
Like PCGS doesn't have enough to do. I hope they hired some new help for this process.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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.
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Slow as heck. If they're gonna delay the delivery of my package by a week they should pony up for overnight. Annoying. I don't need them to tell me a GSA Morgan or already certified coin is real. I just need them to trust me when I say it's fake, as a professional.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I don't get the certified coin "authenticity guarantee" requirement. If you're selling raw over $500 that would make some sense, or a seller with a low rating with counterfeit claims and returns.
Probably because so many certified coins are actually counterfeit pieces in counterfeit holders.
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Haven't the ebay listings of counterfeits of fake PCGS and NGC holders been by sketchy sellers with limited or problem feedback? Also why are they doing this with Anacs and ICG certified coins, have there been any counferfeits over $500 sold in those holders?
No. Fake slabs are mostly from sketchy sellers, but not all. It also looks that the coins match the listing.
Turns out people prefer that ebay do nothing about fakes and scam artists.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I don't know- I think they'd like eBay to 'Do Something', as long as that something doesn't mean it takes longer to get their purchase delivered or cost them anything. And some would also like eBay to limit their scrutiny to bad counterfeits, not the good ones they collect.
I was being sarcastic.
I don't want ebay pulling listings based on self-declared experts looking at bad photos. They found a way to put expert eyes on the coins and I'm willing to live with the slight imperfections to improve (not perfect) the site. And they did at at zero cost to buyers or sellers. Two thumbs up.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I was, too, sort of.
No Good Deed Goes Unpunished.
Zero chance, 1, security, 2, fees, 3, ebay overlord rules that one has to abide by. Many highly recognized numismatic dealers don't use ebay. After a few months of research on how I wanted to start an online coin store, I chose to not make connections with ebay. It reminds me too much of working at universities for decades where they put loads of barriers in your way to success. I have been quite successful without dealing with them. Why would I want to suffer under their regime? Sure it makes sense for certain kinds of inventory. But not mine....................
Should read - "Some large commerical ventures". Again you overstate the point, not all do, only some..............
I never said "all". I only "overstate" the point when you keep inserting words that aren't there.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Similar coins to what you offer sell every day on eBay. It's not that your inventory can't be sold on eBay successfully, it's that you chose not to.
How is eBay absorbing the added costs? Does anyone have an estimate of how much they're having to pay for the detour to PCGS, the crew that takes the package apart, then assesses whether the coin is counterfeit or not, and then repackages the shipment, pays for yet more shipping, etc.? How will they pay for this?
Part of that cost is probably offset by reducing the amount of charge backs and time spent mediating cases where someone either claimed or was sent something other than what they ordered. They have done this with cards for years, so the benefits must outweigh the costs or else they would have axed the program a while ago instead of expanding it.
For coins that are going through the Authenticity Guarantee process, the SELLER is shipping the coin directly to PCGS. PCGS will do the validation, and then PCGS will take care of shipping the coin to the BUYER. The Seller only pays one shipping fee (to PCGS). I do not know what costs are associated with having PCGS inspect the coin, and then shipping it to the buyer.
Don't poke the bear. 😂
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.