How would you submit this coin to PCGS? Pattern coin in a non pattern holder.

redraider · September 17, 2026 6:56AM

This coin is in a 1864 CN PF65 Holder. It was originally bought as a Bronze PF64BN NGC a few years ago. You can see where there is confusion....two grading companies with 2 very different opinions.

When I sent the coin to Rick Snow for a Photoseal, he did a XRF analysis and he determined that it is bronze on a thick planchet (Judd356A).

How would I go about submitting this coin back to PCGS to have them designate it correctly? They will probably need to do a metallurgic analysis as well, but that is not on any submission order sheet that I have seen. I don't want to crack it out and submit it raw.

oih82w8 · September 17, 2026 6:59AM

I would send it as Rick described it, hopefully you have the source document indicating it as such, it would help getting the correct attribution. Good luck.

lermish · September 17, 2026 7:01AM

I recently submitted a trade dollar that was in a business strike holder but which is, in actuality, a scarce proof strike variety.

I submitted as a reholder with the additional comments field in all caps and highlighted asking them to see the attached documentation. And then I attached my highly annotated documentation.

I think a similar process here would work.

MFeld · September 17, 2026 7:02AM

I agree with @oih82w8 and wouldn’t even consider submitting it as a non-pattern.

redraider · September 17, 2026 7:11AM

This was the XRF result....Would PCGS take this as evidence? There is no indication of what was analyzed.

redraider · September 17, 2026 7:16AM

And then there is this.....Not in print in his guide, but it was added after he published his last attribution guide.
It doesn't hurt that my name is here with the description of the holder!

MFeld · September 17, 2026 7:17AM

@redraider said:
This was the XRF result....Would PCGS take this as evidence? There is no indication of what was analyzed.

I’d ask Rick for a brief letter confirming the coin that was tested and the pictured result.

Copperindian · September 17, 2026 7:53AM

She’s a beauty, Jonathan! Best of luck going through this process. Good advice, too, from all three members above!
Ken

redraider · September 17, 2026 11:11AM

Thanks everyone! Will work on my submission and let everyone know the results.

TrickleCharge · September 17, 2026 4:18PM

I have delt with similar situations. It may take a couple of attempts before they understand what it is you have and are asking. If possible, I would suggest bringing it to a show and submitting in person with all of the documentation.

retirednow · September 17, 2026 5:10PM

You could ask Rick Snow to submit it for you ... I presumed he had several similar cases in the past.

jmlanzaf · September 18, 2026 10:00AM

@redraider said:
This was the XRF result....Would PCGS take this as evidence? There is no indication of what was analyzed.

If they shot it through the plastic, that is not conclusive. If PCGS takes it out and shoots it, they may not get the same result.

TrickleCharge · September 18, 2026 10:08AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@redraider said:
This was the XRF result....Would PCGS take this as evidence? There is no indication of what was analyzed.

If they shot it through the plastic, that is not conclusive. If PCGS takes it out and shoots it, they may not get the same result.

Still, the absence of any nickel is telling.

jmlanzaf · September 18, 2026 10:13AM

@TrickleCharge said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@redraider said:
This was the XRF result....Would PCGS take this as evidence? There is no indication of what was analyzed.

If they shot it through the plastic, that is not conclusive. If PCGS takes it out and shoots it, they may not get the same result.

Still, the absence of any nickel is telling.

Is it? We shot a platinum silver eagle through the plastic and it came back as 95% SILVER with almost no platinum.

TrickleCharge · September 18, 2026 10:16AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@TrickleCharge said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@redraider said:
This was the XRF result....Would PCGS take this as evidence? There is no indication of what was analyzed.

If they shot it through the plastic, that is not conclusive. If PCGS takes it out and shoots it, they may not get the same result.

Still, the absence of any nickel is telling.

Is it? We shot a platinum silver eagle through the plastic and it came back as 95% SILVER with almost no platinum.

I've never shot platinum, but I have had CN cents shot through plastic and they always showed at least some nickel.

jmlanzaf · September 18, 2026 10:17AM

@TrickleCharge said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@TrickleCharge said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@redraider said:
This was the XRF result....Would PCGS take this as evidence? There is no indication of what was analyzed.

If they shot it through the plastic, that is not conclusive. If PCGS takes it out and shoots it, they may not get the same result.

Still, the absence of any nickel is telling.

Is it? We shot a platinum silver eagle through the plastic and it came back as 95% SILVER with almost no platinum.

I've never shot platinum, but I have had CN cents shot through plastic and they always showed at least some nickel.

Here's a fascinating article. I may give it its own thread:

https://britnumsoc.blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/269-xrf-slabs-oddie-blog-001.pdf

TrickleCharge · September 18, 2026 10:27AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@TrickleCharge said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@TrickleCharge said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@redraider said:
This was the XRF result....Would PCGS take this as evidence? There is no indication of what was analyzed.

If they shot it through the plastic, that is not conclusive. If PCGS takes it out and shoots it, they may not get the same result.

Still, the absence of any nickel is telling.

Is it? We shot a platinum silver eagle through the plastic and it came back as 95% SILVER with almost no platinum.

I've never shot platinum, but I have had CN cents shot through plastic and they always showed at least some nickel.

Here's a fascinating article. I may give it its own thread:

https://britnumsoc.blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/269-xrf-slabs-oddie-blog-001.pdf

That is an interesting article. Notice that the expected elements for each coin do show up at least in some amount. Even your platinum eagle showed some platinum.

Best practice is to shoot the slab without coin and use those results to adjust the slab shot with the coin. It's not perfect, but should give a pretty good idea of composition. Looking at the image @redraider posted, it appears that Rick has his device set to remove the slab elements already.

Edit: Hmm, well except in the case of the gold. That shows no gold at all in the slab. You should start a separate thread. I am more familiar with how the gun reads bronze and nickel through a slab. It is interesting to see how it reads other metals.

MrEureka · September 18, 2026 11:05AM

FWIW, I won’t buy patterns like this unless the composition is clearly stated on the label. Over the years, and especially in the early days of the TPGs, too many patterns were attributed by sight and guesswork, without proper testing. So if my coin, I would make that request. And in this case, I’d also request that the weight be noted, mostly to help future internet bidders.

redraider · September 18, 2026 11:36AM

Thanks Andy! I agree with your assessment on buying patterns with known metal composition! This wasn't bought as a pattern. I originally bought it as an 1864 Bronze proof. I sent it to Rick for a photoseal and he noticed that it was a thick planchet. He removed it from the holder and then had it analyzed with the results you see above as a raw coin. He then submitted it to PCGS (with his evidence) and they still put it in a CN holder!

Trying again the 2nd time around now!

Copperindian · September 18, 2026 11:47AM

Jonathan -
I don’t know if this will help your case, but below is a MS coin with the composition:

But, I’ll note they still attributed the variety incorrectly 😂

Ken

IkesT · September 18, 2026 12:09PM

@redraider said:
Thanks Andy! I agree with your assessment on buying patterns with known metal composition! This wasn't bought as a pattern. I originally bought it as an 1864 Bronze proof. I sent it to Rick for a photoseal and he noticed that it was a thick planchet. He removed it from the holder and then had it analyzed with the results you see above as a raw coin. He then submitted it to PCGS (with his evidence) and they still put it in a CN holder!

Trying again the 2nd time around now!

When supporting information is submitted with an order, is it seen by anyone in the grading room, or is it tossed out as soon as the package hits the receiving department?

renomedphys · September 18, 2026 2:24PM

I believe it is as simple as resubmitting with variety attribution. You don’t even need to ask for a regrade. You can attest to your belief on the submission form by stating: Coin is a PATTERN, J-356-a. I don’t think your XRF results will be taken into account as fact but may help get the ball rolling 🫨🙃🤣

Figuring this out is PCGS’ business and well within their wheelhouse, especially with a little guidance.

If there is a coin number already associated with this variety then you should include it in your written testament, and that it’s your expectation that this coin should certify as such.

MsMorrisine · September 18, 2026 2:27PM

@renomedphys said:
I believe it is as simple as resubmitting with variety attribution. You don’t even need to ask for a regrade. You can attest to your belief on the submission form by stating: Coin is a PATTERN, J-356-a. I don’t think your XRF results will be taken into account as fact but may help get the ball rolling 🫨🙃🤣

Figuring this out is PCGS’ business and well within their wheelhouse, especially with a little guidance.

If there is a coin number already associated with this variety then you should include it in your written testament, and that it’s your expectation that this coin should certify as such.

but they want money to do an xrf and from past experiences attributions is hit-or-miss

i'd suggest using a paper form and write all over it that it is bronze and provide the pattern number and pcgs coin number. i'd also include supporting evidence like the xrf picture

How would you submit this coin to PCGS? Pattern coin in a non pattern holder.

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