Using eBay Authenticity Guarantee Program….lets see how it goes
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So, what if a $800 first strike eligible coin, still sealed in the us mint shipping box, is sent through this process? Is PCGS going to void the ability to get a first strike designation on a slab since I presume PCGS will open it on its way to the buyer?
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@jmlanzaf said:
@CircOnly said:
I'm not feeling so great about my first experience. I like the idea of the program, but this part kind of stinks. With it sitting for 2 full days not making it to the authenticator, I am not sure I'll even get the coin.>
That is typical USPS behavior coupled with typical PCGS behavior. None of it is really specific to the program.
I'm 99.5% sure you will get the coin
Only if it’s deemed authentic …tick-tock.
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This may be interesting:
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Any determination of the $500 plus coins as inauthentic should fall on the seller entirely. There are a lot of costs associated with this.
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@JDark said:
This may be interesting:I don't see any reason why it wouldn't make it through the process. High price, but it seems as described.
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Yep, but it is a counterfeit. It technically is against eBay's coin policy...
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Let us know how long the process takes. I’m curious.
The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…
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eBay should know which counterfeits are okay to sell and which aren't. What's wrong with them, anyway?
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@TrickleCharge said:
@JDark said:
This may be interesting:I don't see any reason why it wouldn't make it through the process. High price, but it seems as described.
eBay doesn’t allow any counterfeits, even those described as such and those that are specifically collectible. I personally have no problem with these because they have a known collector base; same thing with Machin’s Mills copper and other widely circulated contemporary counterfeits. These are cases where I disagree with eBay’s policy, but now can see how a seller can get trapped by forced authentication that ignores the bigger picture.
JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research1 -
@airplanenut said:
@TrickleCharge said:
@JDark said:
This may be interesting:I don't see any reason why it wouldn't make it through the process. High price, but it seems as described.
eBay doesn’t allow any counterfeits, even those described as such and those that are specifically collectible. I personally have no problem with these because they have a known collector base; same thing with Machin’s Mills copper and other widely circulated contemporary counterfeits. These are cases where I disagree with eBay’s policy, but now can see how a seller can get trapped by forced authentication that ignores the bigger picture.
True. I think the question then is: Are the PCGS authenticators tasked with enforcing eBay policy or, at least in the case of slabbed coins, just verifying the holder?
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I had a situation come up this weekend that I wonder how it would have been handled. The listing title said MS64 but the coin in the picture was MS65. It was priced attractively. I knew the coin in the picture was what was being sold. The seller cancelled the transaction, fixed the listing, and had me re-buy it. But I'm wondering, had he not done that, would the coin have been rejected by the authenticators because it was MS65 and not MS64?
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@TrickleCharge said:
@airplanenut said:
@TrickleCharge said:
@JDark said:
This may be interesting:I don't see any reason why it wouldn't make it through the process. High price, but it seems as described.
eBay doesn’t allow any counterfeits, even those described as such and those that are specifically collectible. I personally have no problem with these because they have a known collector base; same thing with Machin’s Mills copper and other widely circulated contemporary counterfeits. These are cases where I disagree with eBay’s policy, but now can see how a seller can get trapped by forced authentication that ignores the bigger picture.
True. I think the question then is: Are the PCGS authenticators tasked with enforcing eBay policy or, at least in the case of slabbed coins, just verifying the holder?
It's got to be a weird corner case since I doubt eBay planned on any of the reputable companies intentionally slabbing counterfeit coins. If only the holders are checked, it would be an interesting way around the counterfeit policy; as the policy is written, a raw Henning nickel is totally forbidden even if properly described. Admittedly, it's one of the rare times I'll list counter to the policy, since anyone searching for a Henning nickel knows what it is, and even if I don't use the word "counterfeit" (so as to avoid keyword flags) no one who is unfamiliar with Henning nickels is accidentally spending hundreds of dollars on an otherwise worthless circulated, early-date nickel.
JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research1 -
I suppose it could be found as a genuine counterfeit...
If just a TPG slab check that is authentic.
I guess we will see:
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@JDark said:
I suppose it could be found as a genuine counterfeit...If just a TPG slab check that is authentic.
I guess we will see:
They will get an interesting response if the authenticator runs the serial number through the ICG verification tool:
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Interesting; I sent a note to Customer service at ICG. Could be an issue for the authenticator!
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I have reported this coin three times in three years—response is that the offer is okay.
Not a good look for the guarantee.
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I applaud eBay for trying to make the platform safer. But as bad as expensive counterfeit coins are to me the American Silver Eagle category is the real cesspool and those listings are mostly under $500.
Many happy BST transactions0 -
For that coin? They should make the job easier for themselves and clear up the easy stuff first.
No one has bought that coin, no one probably will, but, if someone chooses to buy that quarter, it is because of the authenticity guarantee.0 -
@Creg said:
For that coin? They should make the job easier for themselves and clear up the easy stuff first.
No one has bought that coin, no one probably will, but, if someone chooses to buy that quarter, it is because of the authenticity guarantee.IF it's in an NGC holder that has been determined to be genuine, it will probably get through authentication. Remember, slab authentication turns a blind eye to the coin. Why not buy the coin yourself and find out what happens? $2000 is not that much money to spend on a once-in-a-lifetime adventure that buying this coin represents. fwiw, I don't believe I've ever seen a 1998-P quarter with such astonishing hair detail as this piece has.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
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@mr1931S said:
IF it's in an NGC holder that has been determined to be genuine, it will probably get through authentication. Remember, slab authentication turns a blind eye to the coin. Why not buy the coin yourself and find out what happens? $2000 is not that much money to spend on a once-in-a-lifetime adventure that buying this coin represents. fwiw, I don't believe I've ever seen a 1998-P quarter with such astonishing hair detail as this piece has.
Einstein, look at the dang photo. How ‘bout that nice circular clash? How many clues do you need to see that that is not “pop” anything?
Stop listening to the nice clacking of the keys while you write.1 -
@Creg said:
@mr1931S said:
IF it's in an NGC holder that has been determined to be genuine, it will probably get through authentication. Remember, slab authentication turns a blind eye to the coin. Why not buy the coin yourself and find out what happens? $2000 is not that much money to spend on a once-in-a-lifetime adventure that buying this coin represents. fwiw, I don't believe I've ever seen a 1998-P quarter with such astonishing hair detail as this piece has.
Einstein, look at the dang photo. How ‘bout that nice circular clash? How many clues do you need to see that that is not “pop” anything?
Stop listening to the nice clacking of the keys while you write.Actually, it doesn't even appear to me to be in a TPG holder. Did you point that out to ebay when you reported this auction? Sellers on ebay are not permitted to use grade numbers when describing raw coins which is what this coin appears to be.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
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Some like to collect contemporary bogus Bust halves. (They are kind of cool.)
If one is described as such yet is actually a genuine coin, can the one described as a contemporary counterfeit (that is actually genuine) be returned as not described?
Now, before you judge me too harshly, some of these rarer contemporary counterfeits are worth more than their genuine counterparts.
Everyone and anyone who has a possible answer, take a step forward.
(mr1931S, not so fast.)0 -
@RedRocket said:
Some like to collect contemporary bogus Bust halves. (They are kind of cool.)
If one is described as such yet is actually a genuine coin, can the one described as a contemporary counterfeit (that is actually genuine) be returned as not described?
Now, before you judge me too harshly, some of these rarer contemporary counterfeits are worth more than their genuine counterparts.
Everyone and anyone who has a possible answer, take a step forward.
(mr1931S, not so fast.)If they sell for less than $500, they will not qualify for the Authenticity Guarantee -- so it's business as usual for whomever is buying/selling at under $500 (buyer beware). If they sell for more than $500, then there might be methods to create a listing that does not trigger the Authenticity Guarantee service. I've seen it with cards -- the seller adds another card (because the program is for single cards only), or the seller lists in a category that doesn't fall in the Authenticity Guarantee requirements. There's probably more ways -- as the program matures sellers will always find away around it. But these are the sellers I tend to stay away from -- to each his own...
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@DotStore said:
@RedRocket said:
If they sell for less than $500, they will not qualify for the Authenticity Guarantee -- so it's business as usual for whomever is buying/selling at under $500 (buyer beware). If they sell for more than $500, then there might be methods to create a listing that does not trigger the Authenticity Guarantee service. I've seen it with cards -- the seller adds another card (because the program is for single cards only), or the seller lists in a category that doesn't fall in the Authenticity Guarantee requirements. There's probably more ways -- as the program matures sellers will always find away around it. But these are the sellers I tend to stay away from -- to each his own...
Thank you for your well thought out reply.
I probably didn't purport my question correctly.
What I mean is the seller and buyer WANT the eBay guarantee program and do want to elicit their expertise. The buyer want s to confirm the bogus counterfeit is in fact, a genuine bogus counterfeit. The seller, knowing it is, agrees to have his "coin" checkout as again, his confidence is high it is what it is.0 -
@RedRocket said:
@DotStore said:
@RedRocket said:
If they sell for less than $500, they will not qualify for the Authenticity Guarantee -- so it's business as usual for whomever is buying/selling at under $500 (buyer beware). If they sell for more than $500, then there might be methods to create a listing that does not trigger the Authenticity Guarantee service. I've seen it with cards -- the seller adds another card (because the program is for single cards only), or the seller lists in a category that doesn't fall in the Authenticity Guarantee requirements. There's probably more ways -- as the program matures sellers will always find away around it. But these are the sellers I tend to stay away from -- to each his own...
Thank you for your well thought out reply.
I probably didn't purport my question correctly.
What I mean is the seller and buyer WANT the eBay guarantee program and do want to elicit their expertise. The buyer want s to confirm the bogus counterfeit is in fact, a genuine bogus counterfeit. The seller, knowing it is, agrees to have his "coin" checkout as again, his confidence is high it is what it is.So the seller is selling a FAKE coin over $500. The buyer wants to buy the fake coin for over $500, and want PCGS to make sure it is indeed NOT real, and is a genuine FAKE coin. I got nothing...
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@DotStore said:
@RedRocket said:
@DotStore said:
@RedRocket said:
If they sell for less than $500, they will not qualify for the Authenticity Guarantee -- so it's business as usual for whomever is buying/selling at under $500 (buyer beware). If they sell for more than $500, then there might be methods to create a listing that does not trigger the Authenticity Guarantee service. I've seen it with cards -- the seller adds another card (because the program is for single cards only), or the seller lists in a category that doesn't fall in the Authenticity Guarantee requirements. There's probably more ways -- as the program matures sellers will always find away around it. But these are the sellers I tend to stay away from -- to each his own...
Thank you for your well thought out reply.
I probably didn't purport my question correctly.
What I mean is the seller and buyer WANT the eBay guarantee program and do want to elicit their expertise. The buyer want s to confirm the bogus counterfeit is in fact, a genuine bogus counterfeit. The seller, knowing it is, agrees to have his "coin" checkout as again, his confidence is high it is what it is.So the seller is selling a FAKE coin over $500. The buyer wants to buy the fake coin for over $500, and want PCGS to make sure it is indeed NOT real, and is a genuine FAKE coin. I got nothing...
YES. Exactly this.
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@jmlanzaf said:
@MasonG said:
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
But who’s to say the coin pictured is the one you receive ? eBay is magic.Seems a little unfair to the seller to suggest that they possibly might not ship the coin pictured.
Not to mention they are shipping it to PCGS.
But you know. They love to hate ebay, even though they are possibly responsible for hundreds of thousands (millions) of small business successes.
Nothing helps a new business on tight margins quite like a business that skims an extra 10-15% off for providing software and that had no input into the description, images, etc.
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@RedRocket said:
@DotStore said:
@RedRocket said:
@DotStore said:
@RedRocket said:
If they sell for less than $500, they will not qualify for the Authenticity Guarantee -- so it's business as usual for whomever is buying/selling at under $500 (buyer beware). If they sell for more than $500, then there might be methods to create a listing that does not trigger the Authenticity Guarantee service. I've seen it with cards -- the seller adds another card (because the program is for single cards only), or the seller lists in a category that doesn't fall in the Authenticity Guarantee requirements. There's probably more ways -- as the program matures sellers will always find away around it. But these are the sellers I tend to stay away from -- to each his own...
Thank you for your well thought out reply.
I probably didn't purport my question correctly.
What I mean is the seller and buyer WANT the eBay guarantee program and do want to elicit their expertise. The buyer want s to confirm the bogus counterfeit is in fact, a genuine bogus counterfeit. The seller, knowing it is, agrees to have his "coin" checkout as again, his confidence is high it is what it is.So the seller is selling a FAKE coin over $500. The buyer wants to buy the fake coin for over $500, and want PCGS to make sure it is indeed NOT real, and is a genuine FAKE coin. I got nothing...
YES. Exactly this.
I don't think it will work. While contemporary counterfeits are collectible, they are really not allowed by ebay.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@cameonut2011 said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@MasonG said:
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
But who’s to say the coin pictured is the one you receive ? eBay is magic.Seems a little unfair to the seller to suggest that they possibly might not ship the coin pictured.
Not to mention they are shipping it to PCGS.
But you know. They love to hate ebay, even though they are possibly responsible for hundreds of thousands (millions) of small business successes.
Nothing helps a new business on tight margins quite like a business that skims an extra 10-15% off for providing software and that had no input into the description, images, etc.
Small businesses love to pay eBay and Amazon (who takes at least 20%) because it would cost them FAR more to do it without them.
It's not even arguable that thousands or maybes millions of small businesses were launched on those two platforms.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Seller selling fake of a known fake. Interesting. I would say selling of no counterfeits period should ebay allow. Not even one that is clearly identified on the slab label, by a certifying TPG, as counterfeit and would pass the slab authenticity test.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
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What are the requirements to use the program? I can see it being potentially beneficial.
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@cameonut2011 said:
What are the requirements to use the program? I can see it being potentially beneficial.Coin over$500
Many happy BST transactions0 -
@RedRocket said:
Some like to collect contemporary bogus Bust halves. (They are kind of cool.)
If one is described as such yet is actually a genuine coin, can the one described as a contemporary counterfeit (that is actually genuine) be returned as not described?
Now, before you judge me too harshly, some of these rarer contemporary counterfeits are worth more than their genuine counterparts.
Everyone and anyone who has a possible answer, take a step forward.The simple answer is that such a piece is prohibited on eBay, so if the authentication program blocks the sale, it's working exactly as intended. This is not to say that I agree with the policy. I understand fully that there are very collectible counterfeits, and I have no personal issue selling them as long as they're properly described.
The issue is that eBay makes a blanket rule and screws up a lot of good in the process. What they really mean to do is prevent the sale of junk counterfeits to unknowing buyers; modern Chinese counterfeits are a perfect example. But by banning counterfeits outright, no matter how collectible or properly described a counterfeit may be, it's still not allowed. A similar issue crops up with embargoes. Lots of Cuban items are prohibited from being sold in the US, so eBay bans everything Cuban, including coins that were produced for Cuba by the US Mint and don't actually fall under an embargo. But if you use the word "Cuba" your listing will get blocked for flagged and removed, and the same goes with counterfeit-related words. There are times when you can get around the counterfeit policy, such as Henning nickels (as I mentioned previously) because anyone paying hundreds of dollars for a circulated nickel that would be worth pennies if genuine, knows that a Henning nickel is counterfeit without you having to use the word.
JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research1 -
@mr1931S said:
Seller selling fake of a known fake. Interesting. I would say selling of no counterfeits period should ebay allow. Not even one that is clearly identified on the slab label, by a certifying TPG, as counterfeit and would pass the slab authenticity test.Although I may agree with the intent of your response I must admit I don't understand it... So, you are saying a certified counterfeit with it stated on the label would pass?
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I understand some people do collect some counterfeits. But as far as counterfeiting laws go, is there really anything such as a legal counterfeit? Seems unlikely...
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@MasonG said:
I understand some people do collect some counterfeits. But as far as counterfeiting laws go, is there really anything such as a legal counterfeit? Seems unlikely...@MasonG said:
I understand some people do collect some counterfeits. But as far as counterfeiting laws go, is there really anything such as a legal counterfeit? Seems unlikely...There aren't. If I'm not mistaken, the ANA was granted an exemption to hold their reference collection.
Years ago, a local collector have a talk on counterfeits at our coin club. If was advertised and a local Fed showed up and seized them.
It increasingly seems that people only care about modern Chinese counterfeits. Even the modern Colombian/Ecuadorian counterfeits on the other thread had fans.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@MasonG said:
I understand some people do collect some counterfeits. But as far as counterfeiting laws go, is there really anything such as a legal counterfeit? Seems unlikely...The Hobby Protection Act affected counterfeits made after it passed. Counterfeits already in existence aren’t violating it. You can’t try to spend counterfeits, but classic counterfeits aren’t illegal.
JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research0 -
@airplanenut said:
@MasonG said:
I understand some people do collect some counterfeits. But as far as counterfeiting laws go, is there really anything such as a legal counterfeit? Seems unlikely...The Hobby Protection Act affected counterfeits made after it passed. Counterfeits already in existence aren’t violating it. You can’t try to spend counterfeits, but classic counterfeits aren’t illegal.
Yes, they are. They aren't covered by the HPA. But they are COUNTERFEIT coins and illegal as counterfeit coins even if they aren't illegal as copies or fantasies.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Quick someone call the feds, GC is profiting off counterfeits as well. 🙄
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@TrickleCharge said:
Quick someone call the feds, GC is profiting off counterfeits as well. 🙄If you want, I'll file a report.
The fact that the Feds don't choose to aggressively enforce this doesn't mean they are actually legal.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@jmlanzaf said:
@TrickleCharge said:
Quick someone call the feds, GC is profiting off counterfeits as well. 🙄If you want, I'll file a report.
The fact that the Feds don't choose to aggressively enforce this doesn't mean they are actually legal.
Never said they were, but this is GC not some sidewalk vendor and they are ok taking that risk. It's pretty clear that the feds largely don't care when it comes to counterfeits like the above Omega or a Henning nickel being sold as such for $500.
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@jmlanzaf said:
@TrickleCharge said:
Quick someone call the feds, GC is profiting off counterfeits as well. 🙄If you want, I'll file a report.
The fact that the Feds don't choose to aggressively enforce this doesn't mean they are actually legal.
If you want to go ahead, let me know what J Edgar says.
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@jmlanzaf said:
Yes, they are. They aren't covered by the HPA. But they are COUNTERFEIT coins and illegal as counterfeit coins even if they aren't illegal as copies or fantasies.
I guess eBay, PCGS and others have a definition of "counterfeit", and hopefully it is the same definition. In layman's terms, I understand a counterfeit to have one or more of the following characteristics:
- The production was unauthorized. The coin was made by someone other than a legitimate government or mint.
- The coin is deceptive. It is intentionally designed to look like a real coin so it can be spent or exchanged as if genuine.
- The metallic value is lower. The counterfeit is typically made from cheaper materials than a real coin.
I remember a dealer once telling me that "a counterfeit is a fake, but a fake is not necessarily a counterfeit". His logic was that replica coins, even if they are not stamped "replica", are fakes. But they are not counterfeits because they were not meant to deceive. So it seems like there is wiggle room in the above definition.
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Same venue that ended my bid on a contemporary counterfeit micro O Morgan in a PCGS slab; I guess the difference is the price and the one I was bidding on was authenticated genuine...
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@JDark said:
Same venue that ended my bid on a contemporary counterfeit micro O Morgan in a PCGS slab; I guess the difference is the price and the one I was bidding on was authenticated genuine...I wonder if someone from PCGS requested them to end it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire0 -
HPA is not enforced. The resources to enforce simply aren't there. Law that is not enforced is, for all practical purposes, useless.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
0
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