Error Guys....How is This Even Possible?

Someone at the mint playing with the press in the late 60s....I would assume..

Aren’t $5’s a lot smaller than quarters? How did the whole design fit on there?
Repeatedly hammered until the coin became larger in diameter?

@Byers said:
@jayPem said:

Aren’t $5’s a lot smaller than quarters? How did the whole design fit on there?
Repeatedly hammered until the coin became larger in diameter?

The Quarter diameter is 24.2 mm

The $5 Lib diameter is 21.6 mm

It was struck twice ( modern U.S. proof coins are struck twice) over the struck $5 Liberty

The pressure from the Quarter dies expanded the diameter of the $5 Liberty to the size of a quarter.

I saw this mint error prior to being certified 2 decades ago. And I sold it twice. It has full reeding from the Quarter collar.

Nice!
I was also wondering if they used actually proof dies or if the multiple strikes gave it a proof like finish…
And I would have thought the reeding would be from the $5, not the quarter, so that’s neat. Must feel like a rather skinny quarter!
This is a cool “error” for sure.

@CaptHenway said:

@MsMorrisine said:

@CaptHenway said:

@jayPem said:
Aren’t $5’s a lot smaller than quarters? How did the whole design fit on there?
Repeatedly hammered until the coin became larger in diameter?

There is roughly a 3mm difference in diameter between a half eagle and a quarter. All that the half eagle has to do is expand approx. 1.5 mm in all directions to fill the quarter collar. Considering the softness of the gold and the pressure intended for a proof copper-nickel strike, the diameter of the finished piece is not unexpected.

did they double squeeze the proofs back then?

While I was at Coin World (1973-1978) and ANACS (1978-1984) I saw quite a few of the 1968-on San Francisco Mint Proofs with a tiny bit of movement between two strikles.

Correct. Some have the slightest shift between the 2 strikes. If it is a minimum of a 5% rotation, PCGS and NGC will designate it as ‘double struck, slight rotation’.

I'll go further than the OP. How is this legal to own? I find it implausible that it was an "accidental" strike and intentionally made errors are contraband that would be subject to government seizure, no?

@PerryHall said:
There was a lot of shenanigans by mint employees who struck rare coins for personal profit using mint equipment and supplies in the late 1960's and early 1970's. They were called "the midnight minters".

Where there ever any prosecutions?

@oldabeintx said:

@RedRocket said:

@oldabeintx said:
Two things occur to me when i see this. One, it isn’t a mint error. Two, what a monumental waste of money, sad really.

Don't you find it odd to have an emotional reaction to the way a stranger to you spends their money?

No. The acts of strangers cause me to react emotionally all the time. That’s why I mostly watch Golf Channel rather than the news.

@cameonut2011 said:

@PerryHall said:
There was a lot of shenanigans by mint employees who struck rare coins for personal profit using mint equipment and supplies in the late 1960's and early 1970's. They were called "the midnight minters".

Where there ever any prosecutions?

The story is well known and I believe Mike Byers has linked to the longer version, but basically the biggest tranch of coins were found in an abandoned safety deposit box and forfeited to the state of California. They ran it by the Secret Service and were cleared to auction off the contents. I believe other errors that were not in that auction but were obviously produced by the same means also came into the hobby and are legal to own by association.

Sean Reynolds

@seanq said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@PerryHall said:
There was a lot of shenanigans by mint employees who struck rare coins for personal profit using mint equipment and supplies in the late 1960's and early 1970's. They were called "the midnight minters".

Where there ever any prosecutions?

The story is well known and I believe Mike Byers has linked to the longer version, but basically the biggest tranch of coins were found in an abandoned safety deposit box and forfeited to the state of California. They ran it by the Secret Service and were cleared to auction off the contents. I believe other errors that were not in that auction but were obviously produced by the same means also came into the hobby and are legal to own by association.

Sean Reynolds

Sean- that was a nice quick summary…

@GaCoinGuy said:
How was it determined that it was an 1898 $5? Are there some indicators that do not show in the photos?

The date 1898 is visible under the QUARTER DOLLAR

@itsnotjustme said:
Like oldabeintx I don't think this should qualify as an error. It was created intentionally.

Sometimes it passes the time of day for some threads

@SullivanNumismatics said:
Back in the mid-1800's, it's well known that mint employees made numerous patterns and experimental type of coins intentionally, snuck them illicitly out of the Mint, and sold them on the market. Eventually that was stopped to large degree (I believe in the early 1880s.)

In the 1960's-1970's, there was certainly a lot of proof and other error coins that got out through similar means. Greed has always been a strong motivator, and the result has been some wild errors. However, that said, some were in fact, doubtless, made by accident and escaped legitimately.

At the recent ANA this year, a dealer walked up to my table a modern silver proof set (which I purchased), which has a dime with a large 25% indent in its obverse--it fit into the proof set holder, and escaped 100% legitimately. So proof errors do happen, and do get out from time to time legitimately.

Jon- you referenced the early 1880’s, but actually this continued for a few more decades…

The Gold Indian Head Cents struck from 1900-1906 (I have handled three of them)

The 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, unofficially struck and smuggled out

The 1913 Gold Buffalo Nickel ( that I sold for $400k)

And countless others…

@SullivanNumismatics said:

@Byers said:

@SullivanNumismatics said:
Back in the mid-1800's, it's well known that mint employees made numerous patterns and experimental type of coins intentionally, snuck them illicitly out of the Mint, and sold them on the market. Eventually that was stopped to large degree (I believe in the early 1880s.)

In the 1960's-1970's, there was certainly a lot of proof and other error coins that got out through similar means. Greed has always been a strong motivator, and the result has been some wild errors. However, that said, some were in fact, doubtless, made by accident and escaped legitimately.

At the recent ANA this year, a dealer walked up to my table a modern silver proof set (which I purchased), which has a dime with a large 25% indent in its obverse--it fit into the proof set holder, and escaped 100% legitimately. So proof errors do happen, and do get out from time to time legitimately.

Jon- you referenced the early 1880’s, but actually this continued for a few more decades…

The Gold Indian Head Cents ( I have handled three of them)

The 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, unofficially struck and smuggled out

The 1913 Gold Buffalo Nickel ( that I sold for $400k)

And countless others…

Yes, it did, but the spigot was turned way down from the outpouring of custom made pattern pieces for profit by mint employees.

It's never really stopped even in recent years. There will always be coins snuck out by employees of the mint looking to make a dollar (or, thousands of dollars.)

To many to mention, even in modern times. The Sac Dollar/Quarter mules, Cent dies struck into Quarters and Sac Dollars are just a few examples.

Intentionally created mint errors weren’t all proof. Many are mint state!

@Byers said:

@SullivanNumismatics said:

@Byers said:

@SullivanNumismatics said:
Back in the mid-1800's, it's well known that mint employees made numerous patterns and experimental type of coins intentionally, snuck them illicitly out of the Mint, and sold them on the market. Eventually that was stopped to large degree (I believe in the early 1880s.)

In the 1960's-1970's, there was certainly a lot of proof and other error coins that got out through similar means. Greed has always been a strong motivator, and the result has been some wild errors. However, that said, some were in fact, doubtless, made by accident and escaped legitimately.

At the recent ANA this year, a dealer walked up to my table a modern silver proof set (which I purchased), which has a dime with a large 25% indent in its obverse--it fit into the proof set holder, and escaped 100% legitimately. So proof errors do happen, and do get out from time to time legitimately.

Jon- you referenced the early 1880’s, but actually this continued for a few more decades…

The Gold Indian Head Cents ( I have handled three of them)

The 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, unofficially struck and smuggled out

The 1913 Gold Buffalo Nickel ( that I sold for $400k)

And countless others…

Yes, it did, but the spigot was turned way down from the outpouring of custom made pattern pieces for profit by mint employees.

It's never really stopped even in recent years. There will always be coins snuck out by employees of the mint looking to make a dollar (or, thousands of dollars.)

To many to mention, even in modern times. The Sac Dollar/Quarter mules, Cent dies struck into Quarters and Sac Dollars are just a few examples.

Intentionally created mint errors weren’t all proof. Many are mint state!

Certainly, (custom) employee mint made products never stopped. My point was that certain eras resulted in an outpouring of errors, patterns, or other customer mint made material. Proofs, business strikes, all had their heyday for certain years or decades over the last 200 years.

@SullivanNumismatics said:

@Byers said:

@SullivanNumismatics said:

@Byers said:

@SullivanNumismatics said:
Back in the mid-1800's, it's well known that mint employees made numerous patterns and experimental type of coins intentionally, snuck them illicitly out of the Mint, and sold them on the market. Eventually that was stopped to large degree (I believe in the early 1880s.)

In the 1960's-1970's, there was certainly a lot of proof and other error coins that got out through similar means. Greed has always been a strong motivator, and the result has been some wild errors. However, that said, some were in fact, doubtless, made by accident and escaped legitimately.

At the recent ANA this year, a dealer walked up to my table a modern silver proof set (which I purchased), which has a dime with a large 25% indent in its obverse--it fit into the proof set holder, and escaped 100% legitimately. So proof errors do happen, and do get out from time to time legitimately.

Jon- you referenced the early 1880’s, but actually this continued for a few more decades…

The Gold Indian Head Cents ( I have handled three of them)

The 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, unofficially struck and smuggled out

The 1913 Gold Buffalo Nickel ( that I sold for $400k)

And countless others…

Yes, it did, but the spigot was turned way down from the outpouring of custom made pattern pieces for profit by mint employees.

It's never really stopped even in recent years. There will always be coins snuck out by employees of the mint looking to make a dollar (or, thousands of dollars.)

To many to mention, even in modern times. The Sac Dollar/Quarter mules, Cent dies struck into Quarters and Sac Dollars are just a few examples.

Intentionally created mint errors weren’t all proof. Many are mint state!

Certainly, (custom) employee mint made products never stopped. My point was that certain eras resulted in an outpouring of errors, patterns, or other customer mint made material. Proofs, business strikes, all had their heyday for certain years or decades over the last 200 years.

Jumping past the heyday of the 70’s with intentional mint state and proof errors…

In 1999 and 2000, a large number of intentional errors surfaced. Things never seen before in any quantity. Bonded clusters and exotic St Q off metals are just a few examples.

Then it jumps to 2007 when many Denver mint mark intentional errors surfaced.