@cladking said:
One of the things they're learning is that if you want to actually lay your hands on a coin you might have to pay well over catalog or even... ...gasp... ...pay retail which can be thirty or forty times wholesale.
That's certainly a respectable markup. What coins retail for amounts like that?
Thew '66 cent is a 10 1/2c coin in the Redbook but are bringing as much as $3.75 retail. There are numerous examples but this one seems relevant.
Sorry, no. The markup on 10 cent catalog value coins has nothing to do with the value of the coin and everything to do with the cost of handling them.
Do better.
Yeah. I would have to charge you $1 to ship you an empty envelope in the US. If you want an empty envelope sent to Canada, it'll cost you $3.
If a telemarketer hyped a "thirty or forty times wholesale" markup on a coin like that [The '66 cent is a 10 1/2c coin] in order to move out a bunch of moderns, he'd get ripped as a scammer here.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
I checked each of the two BU roll sources in a previous message here and found that neither of the two coin businesses offered rolls of BU Ike Dollars. I thought these modern day coins were available at give away cheap prices. I am starting to appreciate obtaining nice Eisenhower Dollars. Someday they maybe popular and nice sets be assembled. Just my thoughts.
I have a few hundred Ike’s I saved from mint sets. Ones that are nice but not nice enough to slab, 63 to 66 mostly MS65s and attractively toned.
I’ve seen the ask 1.50 on the bay a while back. I’d be good with that.
Nice speaking with you Mark @HIGHLOWLEAVES Your a true gentleman. Some of these are better than I remember, enjoy.
Turned your thread into the BST @cladking my bad...
Now back to your regular programming.
It's only anecdotal evidence but this is my favorite kind!
I'm seeing a crucial pattern developing that may indicate a market on the verge of collapse and recreation. Specifically it's getting more difficult to get the older mint sets at bid from coin shops and small dealers. These have been earmarked for special buyers for years now who pay strong prices for pristine sets. But now more and more sets are being purchased on-line by retail buyers who pay as much as triple wholesale depriving the special buyer of sets.
Meanwhile the REAL problem is unmasked: If most of the mint sets are moving at retail then where do BU rolls come from. There is a growing list of BU rolls that are simply unavailable and the demand is still increasing. Before now it was merely mint sets and chBU singles in short supply but now BU rolls which have soaked up some of the excess are also in short supply.
@cladking said:
It's only anecdotal evidence but this is my favorite kind!
I'm seeing a crucial pattern developing that may indicate a market on the verge of collapse and recreation. Specifically it's getting more difficult to get the older mint sets at bid from coin shops and small dealers. These have been earmarked for special buyers for years now who pay strong prices for pristine sets. But now more and more sets are being purchased on-line by retail buyers who pay as much as triple wholesale depriving the special buyer of sets.
Meanwhile the REAL problem is unmasked: If most of the mint sets are moving at retail then where do BU rolls come from. There is a growing list of BU rolls that are simply unavailable and the demand is still increasing. Before now it was merely mint sets and chBU singles in short supply but now BU rolls which have soaked up some of the excess are also in short supply.
Every dealer i know is still dumping them to any wholesaler who will take them. Except for one who simply won't buy them for more than face value - and sometimes less.
While there are pockets of interest (Ikes), the overall market for these remains bad. I don't know where you are seeing this booming retail trade.
Aunt Martha died in 2005.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The good news is that everyone on earth has about eight billion cousins (up to about 12th and 100 times removed). They aren't all looking for circulation issue 1966 pennies but an awful lot of them like Ike. They like the kennedies. They want pennies and nickels and mint sets are the source of these coins.
It doesn't matter why the sets are starting to be earmarked for retail sale, merely that they are.
Of course every dealer and collector haven't forgotten these are modern crap and aren't buying because your cousins are.
All the mint sets currently on the market don't amount to even one half of one percent of mintage. Many of these are picked over or tarnished. Their disposition is irrelevant to the size of the forces at work.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
I find that mint sets that contain Ike Dollars are very difficult to buy at bid prices. What is going on ? Comments welcome.
This is just the early stages of competition with aunt Martha's kids. RIP, (I hated spelling Poughkeepsie anyway. Most of the kids live in Albany which is much easier to spell and you just have to remember that just like New York it does have a capital.) More and more dealers have direct access to ebay and online venues to sell mint sets at far higher prices and are capitalizing on it (small "c", not big "C"). This is no immediate problem for those assembling rolls because there are tens of thousands of mint sets actually on the market or held by very weak hands. These are still being cut up for rolls or to haul to the bank.
But once these are gone there are no more because (how many timers have I said?). Mint set originate at the corner coin shop and are brought in by the heirs of the original; purchasers. These forces are now cutting them off at the pass before they get to the entities making BU rolls.
The mint sets will dry up apace and the supply of BU rolls will simply stop.
This is hitting Ikes first because they are so popular with the public. They not only selectively and specifically buy Ike mint sets but they also buy singles and rolls.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
I find that mint sets that contain Ike Dollars are very difficult to buy at bid prices. What is going on ? Comments welcome.
Copilot-
_This is just the early stage of competition with Aunt Martha’s kids. Mint sets don’t come from the Mint anymore—they come from estates. The original buyers are gone, and the heirs bring the sets to the corner coin shop. That’s the supply.
What’s changed is that more dealers now sell mint sets directly on eBay and other online venues at much higher prices. They’re intercepting the sets before they reach the people who cut them up for BU rolls. That’s why you can’t buy Ike‑era mint sets at bid. The supply is being diverted upstream.
There’s no immediate shortage for roll‑builders because tens of thousands of sets are still in weak hands. They’re still being cut up or hauled to the bank. But once those are gone, they’re gone. There is no new supply. Mint sets don’t regenerate.
Ikes are getting hit first because they’re popular with the general public. People buy Ike mint sets, Ike singles, and Ike rolls. So the pressure shows up there before it spreads to the rest of the series.
The mint sets will dry up, and the BU‑roll supply will simply stop._
@jmlanzaf said:
Every dealer i know is still dumping them to any wholesaler who will take them. Except for one who simply won't buy them for more than face value - and sometimes less.
Your cousins in Albany found out long ago that coin shops are not a good place to find Ikes. Most shops don't stock moderns because there is no market and there is very tiny mark-up even if selling at retail. So most sit in the comfort of their homes and pay 15 or $20 for a 2005 mint set which reminds them of aunt Martha and her coin collection.
The thing people are missing is that these coins are simply gone now. They've been neglected, abused, ignored, and marginalized for three generations. Those in circulation are mostly gone and what's left is severely degraded. Mint sets have simply deteriorated and been destroyed. The coins are gone. WW II veterans were mostly young men but those who survived the axis have succumbed to the bottleneck and very few survive. Clad coins were designed to last for 30 years not 76 like veterans so they are passing into memory and history as well. The half life of mint sets is mostly irrelevant because it is wholly dependent on the behavior of collectors who hated them.
The numbers of on-line mint set sellers is increasing geometrically but most seem to have a lot of trouble keeping them in stock. This problem is about to become acute simultaneously with the supply of BU rolls.
.
Copilot-
_"Every dealer you know is still dumping mint sets because they’re treating them as modern junk. But your cousins in Albany figured out long ago that coin shops aren’t where you find Ikes. Most shops don’t stock moderns because the mark‑up is tiny and the demand is inconsistent. So the public buys online. They sit at home and pay $15–$20 for a 2005 mint set because it reminds them of Aunt Martha and her collection.
The part people are missing is that the coins themselves are simply gone now. Three generations of neglect, abuse, and indifference have taken their toll. Circulation examples are mostly destroyed. What survives is degraded. Mint sets have been tossed, opened, stored badly, or ruined. Their half‑life doesn’t matter because it depends entirely on collector behavior—and collectors hated them.
Clad coins were designed to last about 30 years, not 76. They’re disappearing the same way WWII veterans did: slowly at first, then suddenly. The bottleneck is real.
Meanwhile, the number of online sellers offering mint sets is increasing geometrically, but most can’t keep them in stock. That’s the signal. The supply chain is shifting. Dealers are intercepting sets before they reach wholesalers. Wholesalers are intercepting before they reach roll‑makers. And the public is intercepting before they reach anyone.
This pressure is about to hit the BU‑roll supply at the exact same moment the mint‑set supply dries up."_
I was looking for Burger King for a lunch combo (why I don't know) but somehow stumbled onto this thread again.
The one thing in common is that there sure are a lot of "whoppers" in both, and I didn't even know there was such a thing as a double super super sized version either.
It's even better when combined with creative story time.
I think a lot of BU rolls have been picked over by now.
However A decade or so ago really nice pickup from my table at a show (for retail inventory) from bourse room customer - Franklin Roll nice BU coins - I slabbed most of them. That deal once retailed paid off rather nice.
@Cougar1978 said:
I think a lot of BU rolls have been picked over by now.
A decade or so ago made really nice $ getting most of the coins slabbed from a Frank roll super nice return for me. Before could put it away some guy wanted look at it. Quickly put in my zip show bag. Told him it’s for a customer (me).
At the risk of sounding like I don't agree...
The old rolls from before 1965 are sometimes picked over but this is far less of an issue with moderns because there are so few rolls. When modern rolls have been cherry picked over the last 60 years they tend to go into circulation because there was no market for them. So no rolls plus spent rolls equals no cherry picked rolls.
But, yes, of course you're right that there are cherry picked rolls in existence and even most of the hand assembled mint set rolls are going to be chBU with a few Gems and a very low probability of very high grade coins. Assemblers are aware that very high grade coins and varieties have a premium so they don't end up in rolls very often.
But just to be clear the BU rolls are mostly of exceedingly good quality because they are mint set coins and while the top 1% might be removed so is the bottom 25%. The worst mint set coins can not be sold as chBU and this means at least 5% and as much as 50% are just face value. Assembling rolls is an art. Original rolls are rare but tend to be horrendous quality with as few as 1% being "chBU". I would wager there isn't one single well made Gem 1982-P or 1969 quarter in an original roll. Not one, anywhere. They simply do not exist in this format. I would further wager there are no nore than 3 or 4 well made Gem 1969 quarters in all the chBU rolls that have been assembled for sale, and similar number of '82-P's. These are hardly the only modern rarities and merely the ones with which I am most familiar.
@oreville said:
Still hanging onto my obw cent rolls.
Yeah, you were one of the people I was thinking about when I said that many cherry picked modern rolls end up in circulation. I've saved so few of these but they are the only way you can get nice attractive coins that aren't obviously mint set in some cases and the sole source of most varieties.
I've always looked for nice attractive end coins and since they often appear in batches you can see a pretty good sample.
IMO, it seems that there are very few modern Roosevelt Dime BWR’s that have survived. I can only ponder the vast numbers of original State Quarter BU rolls that have been opened and put into circulation. Please Comment……
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
IMO, it seems that there are very few modern Roosevelt Dime BWR’s that have survived. I can only ponder the vast numbers of original State Quarter BU rolls that have been opened and put into circulation. Please Comment……
Still lots of state quarter rolls out there. Every coin store sees them b pretty much every week, often in quantity.
Roosevelt dimes and Jefferson nickels are probably the two least popular modern series and, therefore, probably the least hoarded.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Went to a local coin show here in Central Texas yesterday. A good crowd of show goers and dealer tables were sold out. This message is to say that I was prepared to purchase as many Ike Mints Sets that were available and left with a grand total of Eight Sets. I would say that Sam is correct when he says that the modern mint set are truly drying up. I actually saw a pair of WI extra leaf quarters for sale. Have a great Sunday.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
Went to a local coin show here in Central Texas yesterday. A good crowd of show goers and dealer tables were sold out. This message is to say that I was prepared to purchase as many Ike Mints Sets that were available and left with a grand total of Eight Sets. I would say that Sam is correct when he says that the modern mint set are truly drying up. I actually saw a pair of WI extra leaf quarters for sale. Have a great Sunday.
I’ve never bought mint sets at a coin show because it’s hard to imagine there would be a sleeper MS68 just hanging around in a room, full of sharks.
Even though 99% of the sharks in that room have no interest the one guy selling them is no fool.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
Went to a local coin show here in Central Texas yesterday. A good crowd of show goers and dealer tables were sold out. This message is to say that I was prepared to purchase as many Ike Mints Sets that were available and left with a grand total of Eight Sets. I would say that Sam is correct when he says that the modern mint set are truly drying up. I actually saw a pair of WI extra leaf quarters for sale. Have a great Sunday.
I’ve never bought mint sets at a coin show because it’s hard to imagine there would be a sleeper MS68 just hanging around in a room, full of sharks.
Even though 99% of the sharks in that room have no interest the one guy selling them is no fool.
I never bring mint sets to coin shows because they are not big sellers and there's limited space at a table. Dealers are selective with what they bring.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
Went to a local coin show here in Central Texas yesterday. A good crowd of show goers and dealer tables were sold out. This message is to say that I was prepared to purchase as many Ike Mints Sets that were available and left with a grand total of Eight Sets. I would say that Sam is correct when he says that the modern mint set are truly drying up. I actually saw a pair of WI extra leaf quarters for sale. Have a great Sunday.
Back in the day there was a steep premium on these sets. A $3 premium would be equivalent to a $25 today. Many coin shops had boxes and boxes of these with about "75" of every date bei8ng common. People bought and sold them like a commodity; each identical and nobody knew about any varieties. Not even the '70-S sm dt Lincolns had been separated out and this coin was worth a tiny fraction of the set price. SMS sets ran about .25% frosted Gem because that's how they were shipped from the mint. People didn't care about the coins and nobody collected them.
All those sets are gone now and still nobody cares. They were cut up and put into dealer cash registers Gems and all, varieties and all, they've been wasted and consumed. Back then you'd need a handtruck and a couple trips to wipe out all the mint sets from a medium sized show if you offered bid. Nobody wants the sets so nobody even notices they're gone. If any of your eight sets are '75-77 each Ike will be tarnished or hazed. Everyone assumes it's no matter because there are millions of rolls but in point of fact there never were very many, they were poor quality, and they're gone too.
I used to be able to sit in coin shops for hours looking through mint sets for varieties and Gems and I am very fast. I didn't need the packaging so I could fix what I left behind; leave good sets with all the packaging. I paid slightly extra and the dealers profited from have a more saleable stock. I tried to get all the nice quarters and most of the Gems but I missed some of the varieties because I concentrated on speed. If I couldn't see a variety with the naked eye I left it.
Collectors don't seem to realize that almost all modern rolls come from mint sets and when they stop so do the BU rolls.
@Cougar1978 said:
I think a lot of BU rolls have been picked over by now.
A decade or so ago made really nice $ getting most of the coins slabbed from a Frank roll super nice return for me. Before could put it away some guy wanted look at it. Quickly put in my zip show bag. Told him it’s for a customer (me).
At the risk of sounding like I don't agree...
The old rolls from before 1965 are sometimes picked over but this is far less of an issue with moderns because there are so few rolls. When modern rolls have been cherry picked over the last 60 years they tend to go into circulation because there was no market for them. So no rolls plus spent rolls equals no cherry picked rolls.
But, yes, of course you're right that there are cherry picked rolls in existence and even most of the hand assembled mint set rolls are going to be chBU with a few Gems and a very low probability of very high grade coins. Assemblers are aware that very high grade coins and varieties have a premium so they don't end up in rolls very often.
But just to be clear the BU rolls are mostly of exceedingly good quality because they are mint set coins and while the top 1% might be removed so is the bottom 25%. The worst mint set coins can not be sold as chBU and this means at least 5% and as much as 50% are just face value. Assembling rolls is an art. Original rolls are rare but tend to be horrendous quality with as few as 1% being "chBU". I would wager there isn't one single well made Gem 1982-P or 1969 quarter in an original roll. Not one, anywhere. They simply do not exist in this format. I would further wager there are no nore than 3 or 4 well made Gem 1969 quarters in all the chBU rolls that have been assembled for sale, and similar number of '82-P's. These are hardly the only modern rarities and merely the ones with which I am most familiar.
Not to worry, different people work their angle different ways. I price that material cost plus anyway or simply CDN CPG - junk boxes full of coins in 2x2. I don’t sell rolls - coins are taken out of the roll and priced accordingly in 2x2. If they don’t make 2x2 collector coin retail then remain in roll for whenever. Rolls I have are all BU picked up decades ago
I don’t have any mint sets or pf sets at this time when had them just marked them up cost or CDN bid plus. I have BU cent rolls from pre 65 - need to look over, then retail at some point in time. Who knows maybe some goodies in that.
Sounds like the market is picking up. I don't know. I have been away for a while. Slowly getting back in. I am waiting for a major well know person. A billionaire (fill in the person) to say: I like coin collecting. For example, " I like Bust dollars" or "I like Morgan silver dollars" Boom!
@Cougar1978 said:
Not to worry, different people work their angle different ways. I price that material cost plus anyway or simply CDN CPG - junk boxes full of coins in 2x2. I don’t sell rolls - coins are taken out of the roll and priced accordingly in 2x2. If they don’t make 2x2 collector coin retail then remain in roll for whenever. Rolls I have are all BU picked up decades ago
I don’t have any mint sets or pf sets at this time when had them just marked them up cost or CDN bid plus. I have BU cent rolls from pre 65 - need to look over, then retail at some point in time. Who knows maybe some goodies in that.
In the long run there has to be enough demand for singles to account for all the supply in mint sets and BU rolls. Some will collect them as rolls and sets but the bulk of the demand historically is for singles and there's no evidence this has changed. This demand for singles is driving most of the attrition on modern mint sets now days where in the past it was mostly neglect and deterioration.
The more coins that get put into stable packaging the more that will survive for future collectors.
I'm seeing more of the big sellers of mint sets running out of stock; the early dates especially. They haven't been keeping up with price increases seen on eBay so it looks like their stock is being picked off by bargain hunters. These sellers aren't concerned because bid prices have not been increasing as fast as their own so they assume they can restock easily. As more and more sets are diverted to retail this may not be true.
When nobody can stock sets at bid the price must increase.
So few of these are left and so many are being sold retail i can't imagine where the supply can come from. I can hardly imagine needing to buy "50" or "60" 1975 mint sets to put together a single rolls (20) of the Philly Ike if the sets have to be purchased a few at a time on eBay. Assembling rolls is starting to turn into a very intensive and expensive proposition. In the old days you'd just have to buy 30 sets at $3.82 (~$115) and then you could dump everything else at the bank for a net cost of $30. The postage alone exceeds $30 today. Your outlay will be around $1200 and recouping this cost will be a lot of work in addition to having to soak the Ikes in acetone to remove the hazing and tarnish.
But then I'm still not seeing the toughest rolls advertised for sale. There is a great deal of expansion in BU rolls available but the toughest rolls are still not be listed. Village Coin Shop is now listing the '85-P half dollar for $132. Be careful if you want to acquire the later rolls because the sets are available in quantity for a lower net cost and the coins are usually OK. For $132 you can probably just buy "20" 1985 mint sets.
It's only $140 / roll which sounds a little cheap to me. That's only $7 each for a coin that requires you to buy "35" mint sets to get a roll that requires every coin to be soaked in alcohol. This is a set already under intense buying from retailers and often sold out on their lists.
Nobody can sell very many of these for long. It's one of those that will prove difficult to restock.
Every day I'm seeing something brand new. A wall of demand is hitting almost no supply point blank.
If you want, I can help you follow this with a short post explaining why the modern BU roll market is behaving like a collapsing ecosystem — and why the next phase will be sudden price stratification across dates.
I've always said there aren't enough moderns to fill the pipeline if dealers started keeping stocks of these coins. Every BU roll is now being offered by at least one entity on a fixed price list for the first time (TTHBOMK). But no dealer has anything approaching a complete inventory and many times they have only one or a few rolls of the ones they can list in stock. One buyer can decimate his inventory if that buyer is stocking an eBay store. Don't forget these aren't million dollar rolls so a few thousand dollars goes a long way in purchase orders.
I was looking at the various asking prices for a BWR of BU1955 s Lincoln cents on EBay. The prices were as lofty as $150 a roll. This was an impossible find here in Texas back in the 1950’s to date. Interesting.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
I was looking at the various asking prices for a BWR of BU1955 s Lincoln cents on EBay. The prices were as lofty as $150 a roll. This was an impossible find here in Texas back in the 1950’s to date. Interesting.
A few years back I had a few Gem rolls of this date (Gems are very common for the '55-S). I couldn't sell them because there were no offers anywhere. I stripped them of the "20" best and finally sold all but one for $10.
Back in the '60-s they advertised these in the back of Boy's Life for $15 (about $160 in today's money). You couldn't find the date in circulation so it was on everyone's buy list.
I've seen some pretty high sell prices for this date recently but it's one date that won't be very hard to restock. Even mediocre rolls of these are OK with the biggest threat being tarnished coins. If you're buying BU rolls it's often best to look at them first. Alternatively if the end coins are dogs the in between ones probably are too. Remember end coins are usually tarnished or stained even when the roll is not.
I'm also watching an ongoing explosion in the number of sites to buy mint sets. These are all at higher prices and often much higher prices. I'm not seeing something like 1973 mint sets and when I do they're usually north of $25.
The escalation in asking prices for 1973 - 1978 US Mint Sets in the market place I thank can be contributed to the fact that each set contains two possible choice BU Ike dollars. Could this be an indication that the nice Ike Dollars are being seriously sought after and may indicate a future increase in value. Please comment.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
The escalation in asking prices for 1973 - 1978 US Mint Sets in the market place I thank can be contributed to the fact that each set contains two possible choice BU Ike dollars. Could this be an indication that the nice Ike Dollars are being seriously sought after and may indicate a future increase in value. Please comment.
Ikes are by far the most popular and expensive to date as a denomination. They've been going up and up for years while other moderns are now playing catch up.
For more than half a century mint sets were getting cut up and destroyed because there were too many of them and they were in the way but now the few survivors are being dismantled because somebody wants or needs the coins in them. Even the quarters have finally come under some demand for the very first time.
If you like Ike just wait for this current round of mint set destruction to end because that's when we'll find out if any BU rolls at all survive. Collectors did set aside rolls and the FED could be storing lots of brand new Ikes. But my guess is WYSIWYG and when this current wave of mint set destruction is over you aren't going to see most Ike dates any longer. If a collector doesn't want to pay the $6 retail on a common date there will be no mint sets to take its place. While some rolls and bags survive I expect their availability to be very very spotty and for quality to sometimes be poor. What if there are no rolls or bags of the Philly Type I? I've never seen one and only heard of one that was being dispersed back ~'78. Of course these were worthless in those days so most may have gone to the bank. Most of the original Ike collectors in those days were older men in their 30's and 40's so a lot of these have already been passed on to another generation. Where are the coins now? You don't see them anywhere.
Only 60% of the Philly Ikes in the '75 set could charitably be described as "chBU". But now the few survivors are invariably hazed or tarnished and it won't come off of a lot of this specific date because the '75 mint set packaging was the least stable of all US coin sets.
The general public keeps Ikes under constant demand. People tend to scoop them up and keep them but when I see such accumulations they sure aren't raw Gems in Whitman folders. They are worn and cull of the type usually seen after 50 years of "circulation"; it's not so much wear as wear and tear.
We'll always be able to use the '73 issues as a canary in a coal mine because mintage and attrition are most easily seen. The '73 mint set had very stable packaging with only 20% bad and most easily restored. About 35% were scratched up pretty badly and very few coins have entered circulation which is what happens to most date because it is mint set only and has always been worth at least $2 each. Right now someone is accumulating this date but this never lasts long because it's expensive to accumulate them at the raste they come on the market. Few people have and are willing to put $10 or $15,000 a month into a white elephant like 1973 mint sets.
It's the general public acquiring Ikes that set off the modern markets during covid. The aggregate buying of Ikes by collectors outside the hobby started the ball moving and it's been rolling downhill and getting bigger ever since. These guys are getting more sophisticated and shop online. The wholesalers can't keep up because there never was a wholesale market; you remember, everyone said moderns are a one way market so nobody tried to cater to wholesale. Now wholesalers are springing up but they are having trouble stocking most moderns. It's still a one way market but now it's flowing to the general public and prices are retail in most instances. It will stay retail probably until a real wholesale market exists.
These are treacherous conditions for dealers but great times for collectors and very interesting to me. It's a great time to be young, but this never seems to change too much.
We live in a consumer society and we have consumed modern coins rather than having collected them. Yes, there are a few real collections around from registry sets to albums and folders but the total number of real collections pale to the ongoing demand being satisfied largely by mint sets. I am starting to see a few nice sets of circ, BU, or Gem moderns so it's not all mere consumption.
If the demand persists I can't imagine how any wholesaler can restock. They made billions of these coins but they ain't making them no more.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
Could this be an indication that the nice Ike Dollars are being seriously sought after and may indicate a future increase in value. Please comment.
For several dates all of the Gems went into mint sets.
While all Ikes are very tough in Gem ('77 and '78-D are highest at more than 1%) nice choice coins abound. A lot of what keeps Ikes out of the Gem category is marking or drabness rather than flat strikes.
I think the cleanest division of Ikes as they actually appear in mint sets across all dates is cull; ch BU; very ch BU (gemmy); and Gem. I consider anything under MS-63 to be "cull" in moderns based on the fact that there are still no buyers. If you ship an MS-60 at retail prices you might get it back and lose a customer.
Right now nobody cares about quality until the coins are around pop top but collectors are likely to wake up to the beauty and scarcity of MS-64 and MS-65 Ikes. These may have been common enough back when there were millions of mint sets but the sets are gone and a lot of the coins can't even be shipped as "chBU".
As issued the quality of mint set coins drops off rapidly under MS-63 and over MS-64. Roll coins tend to be poor and their availability spotty. Under these conditions I would expect the definition of "nice" may evolve. Right now any decent strike that isn't too chewed up and is fully lustrous is "nice" but I expect collectors will want at least some well made clean coins in their collections. It think they'll want some of the mint set coins in the top 10 %ile or actual Gems from rolls.
The nicest coins in modern BU rolls are often Gem or even MS-66 but in Ikes the best you can hope for is a couple of nice gemmy coins in a roll. And not even that in '71 and '72 rolls.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
The escalation in asking prices for 1973 - 1978 US Mint Sets in the market place I thank can be contributed to the fact that each set contains two possible choice BU Ike dollars. Could this be an indication that the nice Ike Dollars are being seriously sought after and may indicate a future increase in value. Please comment.
If by "nice Ike dollars" you are referring to the best 8 or 10% of all the Ikes this gets quite complicated. People were collecting Ikes in those days and there were still rolls and bags around. Nobody was concerned with high grade so nobody was setting aside only Gems until 1978. I didn't start until 1979 and it's not like they were easily accumulated because they were few and far apart. These coins are rare today because they were rare even then. But today just the nice 8% of Ikes in mint sets are gone. Not because mint sets are picked over but because but because they have been randomly and almost completely eradicated by time. The surviving '74- '78 Ikes are mostly tarnished. And most of the Ikes are gone. Ike roll prices were so low and hard to capitalize that many people didn't bother and dealers put them in the cash register. Millions of them have simply been "consumed".
So what is the future of nice attractive well made moderns in pristine condition? The neat thing is that there are enough of these to keep the price low but so few no mass market can exist. There are no full true Gems of only a very few dates and most exist at least in the hundreds, or thousands and maybe even tens of thousands. Anyone can attempt a Gem set and be certain of finding common Gems from many sources. But the origin of most modern Gems was in mint sets. The only thing in the world prettier than a mint set Gem is a Gem from a BU roll, Don't expect to see many Gems from rolls because many coins are set aside randomly and then sorted randomly by time. It's less true in Ikes but it's very true that most modern Gems were made for mint sets. Random mint practices would have made no Gems at all for several dates that are common or scarce in mint sets.
Eventually people will realize moderns are more like a process than an event. This ongoing process never made much quality from a numismatic perspective, never saved it, and has destroyed the vastest mintages.
How many nice chBU '76 type I Ikes actually exist. Even with its poor quality it's always been in demand. My best guess is substantial percentages of it's tiny mintage were saved. This tiny mintage was released at the very height of Ike usage in commerce. How many of the four million coins managed to go straight into circulation. Of course I've see a few BU roll coins for the date and nobody considered it a tough date until recently. It's possible almost no Gems at all exist in the rolls and bags that survive because these coins were very badly made. Of course my sample size is too small but this might explain why the Redbook lists it at $1000 in chGem (MS-66). And I'd hardly be surprised if some of the graded coins aren't just unusually clean bag coins.
High grade Ikes are interesting because there's actually a market developing driven by collectors seeking complete sets and each individual coin. When their attention turns to the '71 or '76 tI they will be appalled by what's available. You can buy "15" mint sets and clean the type I's to acquire a nice gemmy coin or you can buy a graded example. Good luck finding them because these don't have huge populations like Morgan Dollars. They have tiny populations like most moderns in high grade or even decent condition.
Now we'll find that even nice chBU rolls of ikes are tougher than most Morgans. Almost all the nice rolls are mint set rolls and now that mint sets are gone we'll see what's in any rolls that survive. Of course this takes time as the coins become tied to a collection and more coins come to market. But the source of most of the earlier moderns have all come to market before. This means existing sets become more sorted.
Don't expect a lot of BU rolls to surface now that assembling them from surviving sets slows to a trickle. The coins simply aren't out there or we'd have seen them by now. Nobody set aside some of these coins,
Nice Ikes—the top 8–10%—were rare even when new, and time has erased most of the mint‑set survivors. Millions were simply consumed in commerce, and nobody saved true Gems. Moderns are a process, not an event: little quality was made, less was preserved, and vast mintages are already gone. The ’76 Type I and ’71 will shock collectors; their high‑grade populations are tiny. Even chBU rolls are scarcer than Morgans, and few new rolls will ever surface.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
....and may indicate a future increase in value. Please comment.
I'm hesitant to comment since if current trends continue or escalate all bets are off.
We have tens of thousands of Morgan collectors buying each date but there are barely thousands of Ike collectors in aggregate. But then there are very substantial numbers of people who own Ikes and might begin sorting them. Lots of people own one or two Morgans but are less likely to become a collector (sorter) than someone who can find a few Ikes each time they go to the bank.
Ikes exist in commerce even though rarely exchanged except at banks where each encounter entails degradation in the past, the here and now, or in the future. Despite the relative rarity of the Ike it is far more prone to attrition (at least until recently).
So what happens if tens of thousands of people wake up one day and decide to collect Ikes? Reality is determined by behavior, not intent. The reality can't support the demand and price ratchets much higher. The public has already been soaking up all the Ikes for years now but for the first time there aren't enough to service the demand just at the time supply is drying up. All those millions of modern Ikes that everyone imagined would stop any price hike are gone or severely degraded and they are still already spoken for.
I think we'll see a series of substantial price increases to coax out more supply as the last mint sets are cut. There will be a clamor for BU rolls and each increase will work to sort what survives into common and rare. After a few years only rarity will continue to increase. Rarity will require the actions of many collectors to identify. All I can do is estimate and point out a few coins that are obviously rare (probably). Anyone who thinks it will be easy to assemble a nice attractive and pristine set of any modern going forward will be in for a rude awakening. Even on a shoestring you might always be able to afford nice attractive sets but now the problem isn't key dates with low mintages, it's all huge mintages with outrageous attrition.
They will be helped by the fact that moderns are not as dependent on grading as Morgans. At least till now counterfeits aren't an issue and there's no worry about played with surfaces or light rubs. A chBU is chBU and a Gem is a Gem. Most of the choicest Gems happen to be in holders but buy the coin, not the slab.
I'm surprised you can still buy all the chBU coins for under $20. I believe as standards tighten and demand continues it will not be uncommon to see someone trying to get close to $80 for the toughest coins. Anyone new to the situation will simply see the costs involved and charge accordingly. Most collectors will not be stymied and simply find a nice coin at a nice price.
It's not the '76 type I with the most potential in chBU it's the forgotten coins. The ones not even sorted yet. It's the ones you just can't find.
@cameonut2011 said:
I figured we could compare Chat GPT to Co-Pilot as AI personalities and opinions can vary:
Unsurprisingly this is just a restatement of the company line. When Chatgpt scans everything it can't see that BU modern rolls are selling for the first timer ever, It doesn't know that post 1965 rolls are very very scarce as OBW rolls. All it finds are the same ol same ol rather than the dramatically higher offers for more and more modern rolls. For moderns very few seek original rolls because there aren't any and most suck. Sure OBW shouldn't be ignored because there are a few Gem and they are the only source for some coins like 1966 cents or '67 quarters. Many varieties don't appear in mint sets and mint set varieties tend to be common.
Chatgpt essentially has distilled the status quo in coins into a reflection of the BU roll market for rolls before 1965 because when AI scrapes what's known it finds modern coins are too common to collect.
In other words you're looking at prompt error because thew question is framed in such a way that it will return "known science" and it's a well known fact that moderns are crap and too common to collect. In the real world there are entities trying to stock these and finding it impossible and collectors collecting them and finding some chBU examples elusive. If there were any rolls of '69 quarters there wouldn't be a single nice chBU coin of the type that can be sold ay retail in most rolls. This is a moot point because there are no such rolls.
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Copilot-
ChatGPT just restates the status quo because it scrapes published opinion, not the market. It can’t see that modern BU rolls are selling for the first time, or that post‑1965 OBW rolls are extremely scarce and usually poor. It repeats “moderns are common,” even as dealers can’t stock them and collectors can’t find chBU examples. If ’69 quarter rolls existed, they’d show it — but they don’t. The prompt guarantees the old answer.
Comments
If a telemarketer hyped a "thirty or forty times wholesale" markup on a coin like that [The '66 cent is a 10 1/2c coin] in order to move out a bunch of moderns, he'd get ripped as a scammer here.
Just sayin'.
I have a few hundred Ike’s I saved from mint sets. Ones that are nice but not nice enough to slab, 63 to 66 mostly MS65s and attractively toned.
I’ve seen the ask 1.50 on the bay a while back. I’d be good with that.
Time for show and tell this thread needs some more pics 😛
Nice speaking with you Mark @HIGHLOWLEAVES Your a true gentleman. Some of these are better than I remember, enjoy.
my bad...
Turned your thread into the BST @cladking
Now back to your regular programming.
It's only anecdotal evidence but this is my favorite kind!
I'm seeing a crucial pattern developing that may indicate a market on the verge of collapse and recreation. Specifically it's getting more difficult to get the older mint sets at bid from coin shops and small dealers. These have been earmarked for special buyers for years now who pay strong prices for pristine sets. But now more and more sets are being purchased on-line by retail buyers who pay as much as triple wholesale depriving the special buyer of sets.
It used to be buyers and wholesalers who created the BU rolls but even the largest retailers like Golden Eagle https://www.goldeneaglecoin.com/proof-sets--mint-sets/uncirculated-mint-sets/uncirculated-mint-sets-1959_date?q=&sortBy=default&page=2 have been out of key date mint sets (like the '73 and '75) for weeks now. This forces aunt Martha to buy one at double or triple wholesale on-line.
Meanwhile the REAL problem is unmasked: If most of the mint sets are moving at retail then where do BU rolls come from. There is a growing list of BU rolls that are simply unavailable and the demand is still increasing. Before now it was merely mint sets and chBU singles in short supply but now BU rolls which have soaked up some of the excess are also in short supply.
I find that mint sets that contain Ike Dollars are very difficult to buy at bid prices. What is going on ? Comments welcome.
Every dealer i know is still dumping them to any wholesaler who will take them. Except for one who simply won't buy them for more than face value - and sometimes less.
While there are pockets of interest (Ikes), the overall market for these remains bad. I don't know where you are seeing this booming retail trade.
Aunt Martha died in 2005.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The good news is that everyone on earth has about eight billion cousins (up to about 12th and 100 times removed). They aren't all looking for circulation issue 1966 pennies but an awful lot of them like Ike. They like the kennedies. They want pennies and nickels and mint sets are the source of these coins.
It doesn't matter why the sets are starting to be earmarked for retail sale, merely that they are.
Of course every dealer and collector haven't forgotten these are modern crap and aren't buying because your cousins are.
All the mint sets currently on the market don't amount to even one half of one percent of mintage. Many of these are picked over or tarnished. Their disposition is irrelevant to the size of the forces at work.
Ask your AI. It can explain it better than I.
This is just the early stages of competition with aunt Martha's kids. RIP, (I hated spelling Poughkeepsie anyway. Most of the kids live in Albany which is much easier to spell and you just have to remember that just like New York it does have a capital.) More and more dealers have direct access to ebay and online venues to sell mint sets at far higher prices and are capitalizing on it (small "c", not big "C"). This is no immediate problem for those assembling rolls because there are tens of thousands of mint sets actually on the market or held by very weak hands. These are still being cut up for rolls or to haul to the bank.
But once these are gone there are no more because (how many timers have I said?). Mint set originate at the corner coin shop and are brought in by the heirs of the original; purchasers. These forces are now cutting them off at the pass before they get to the entities making BU rolls.
The mint sets will dry up apace and the supply of BU rolls will simply stop.
This is hitting Ikes first because they are so popular with the public. They not only selectively and specifically buy Ike mint sets but they also buy singles and rolls.
Copilot-
_This is just the early stage of competition with Aunt Martha’s kids. Mint sets don’t come from the Mint anymore—they come from estates. The original buyers are gone, and the heirs bring the sets to the corner coin shop. That’s the supply.
What’s changed is that more dealers now sell mint sets directly on eBay and other online venues at much higher prices. They’re intercepting the sets before they reach the people who cut them up for BU rolls. That’s why you can’t buy Ike‑era mint sets at bid. The supply is being diverted upstream.
There’s no immediate shortage for roll‑builders because tens of thousands of sets are still in weak hands. They’re still being cut up or hauled to the bank. But once those are gone, they’re gone. There is no new supply. Mint sets don’t regenerate.
Ikes are getting hit first because they’re popular with the general public. People buy Ike mint sets, Ike singles, and Ike rolls. So the pressure shows up there before it spreads to the rest of the series.
The mint sets will dry up, and the BU‑roll supply will simply stop._
Your cousins in Albany found out long ago that coin shops are not a good place to find Ikes. Most shops don't stock moderns because there is no market and there is very tiny mark-up even if selling at retail. So most sit in the comfort of their homes and pay 15 or $20 for a 2005 mint set which reminds them of aunt Martha and her coin collection.
The thing people are missing is that these coins are simply gone now. They've been neglected, abused, ignored, and marginalized for three generations. Those in circulation are mostly gone and what's left is severely degraded. Mint sets have simply deteriorated and been destroyed. The coins are gone. WW II veterans were mostly young men but those who survived the axis have succumbed to the bottleneck and very few survive. Clad coins were designed to last for 30 years not 76 like veterans so they are passing into memory and history as well. The half life of mint sets is mostly irrelevant because it is wholly dependent on the behavior of collectors who hated them.
The numbers of on-line mint set sellers is increasing geometrically but most seem to have a lot of trouble keeping them in stock. This problem is about to become acute simultaneously with the supply of BU rolls.
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Copilot-
_"Every dealer you know is still dumping mint sets because they’re treating them as modern junk. But your cousins in Albany figured out long ago that coin shops aren’t where you find Ikes. Most shops don’t stock moderns because the mark‑up is tiny and the demand is inconsistent. So the public buys online. They sit at home and pay $15–$20 for a 2005 mint set because it reminds them of Aunt Martha and her collection.
The part people are missing is that the coins themselves are simply gone now. Three generations of neglect, abuse, and indifference have taken their toll. Circulation examples are mostly destroyed. What survives is degraded. Mint sets have been tossed, opened, stored badly, or ruined. Their half‑life doesn’t matter because it depends entirely on collector behavior—and collectors hated them.
Clad coins were designed to last about 30 years, not 76. They’re disappearing the same way WWII veterans did: slowly at first, then suddenly. The bottleneck is real.
Meanwhile, the number of online sellers offering mint sets is increasing geometrically, but most can’t keep them in stock. That’s the signal. The supply chain is shifting. Dealers are intercepting sets before they reach wholesalers. Wholesalers are intercepting before they reach roll‑makers. And the public is intercepting before they reach anyone.
This pressure is about to hit the BU‑roll supply at the exact same moment the mint‑set supply dries up."_
I was looking for Burger King for a lunch combo (why I don't know) but somehow stumbled onto this thread again.
The one thing in common is that there sure are a lot of "whoppers" in both, and I didn't even know there was such a thing as a double super super sized version either.
It's even better when combined with creative story time.
Wow, what I have learned from this thread.
I think a lot of BU rolls have been picked over by now.
However A decade or so ago really nice pickup from my table at a show (for retail inventory) from bourse room customer - Franklin Roll nice BU coins - I slabbed most of them. That deal once retailed paid off rather nice.
At the risk of sounding like I don't agree...
The old rolls from before 1965 are sometimes picked over but this is far less of an issue with moderns because there are so few rolls. When modern rolls have been cherry picked over the last 60 years they tend to go into circulation because there was no market for them. So no rolls plus spent rolls equals no cherry picked rolls.
But, yes, of course you're right that there are cherry picked rolls in existence and even most of the hand assembled mint set rolls are going to be chBU with a few Gems and a very low probability of very high grade coins. Assemblers are aware that very high grade coins and varieties have a premium so they don't end up in rolls very often.
But just to be clear the BU rolls are mostly of exceedingly good quality because they are mint set coins and while the top 1% might be removed so is the bottom 25%. The worst mint set coins can not be sold as chBU and this means at least 5% and as much as 50% are just face value. Assembling rolls is an art. Original rolls are rare but tend to be horrendous quality with as few as 1% being "chBU". I would wager there isn't one single well made Gem 1982-P or 1969 quarter in an original roll. Not one, anywhere. They simply do not exist in this format. I would further wager there are no nore than 3 or 4 well made Gem 1969 quarters in all the chBU rolls that have been assembled for sale, and similar number of '82-P's. These are hardly the only modern rarities and merely the ones with which I am most familiar.
Still hanging onto my obw cent rolls.
Yeah, you were one of the people I was thinking about when I said that many cherry picked modern rolls end up in circulation. I've saved so few of these but they are the only way you can get nice attractive coins that aren't obviously mint set in some cases and the sole source of most varieties.
I've always looked for nice attractive end coins and since they often appear in batches you can see a pretty good sample.
I still pick off an OBW roll from time to time.
I knew it would happen.
IMO, it seems that there are very few modern Roosevelt Dime BWR’s that have survived. I can only ponder the vast numbers of original State Quarter BU rolls that have been opened and put into circulation. Please Comment……
Still lots of state quarter rolls out there. Every coin store sees them b pretty much every week, often in quantity.
Roosevelt dimes and Jefferson nickels are probably the two least popular modern series and, therefore, probably the least hoarded.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Went to a local coin show here in Central Texas yesterday. A good crowd of show goers and dealer tables were sold out. This message is to say that I was prepared to purchase as many Ike Mints Sets that were available and left with a grand total of Eight Sets. I would say that Sam is correct when he says that the modern mint set are truly drying up. I actually saw a pair of WI extra leaf quarters for sale. Have a great Sunday.
I’ve never bought mint sets at a coin show because it’s hard to imagine there would be a sleeper MS68 just hanging around in a room, full of sharks.
Even though 99% of the sharks in that room have no interest the one guy selling them is no fool.
I never bring mint sets to coin shows because they are not big sellers and there's limited space at a table. Dealers are selective with what they bring.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Back in the day there was a steep premium on these sets. A $3 premium would be equivalent to a $25 today. Many coin shops had boxes and boxes of these with about "75" of every date bei8ng common. People bought and sold them like a commodity; each identical and nobody knew about any varieties. Not even the '70-S sm dt Lincolns had been separated out and this coin was worth a tiny fraction of the set price. SMS sets ran about .25% frosted Gem because that's how they were shipped from the mint. People didn't care about the coins and nobody collected them.
All those sets are gone now and still nobody cares. They were cut up and put into dealer cash registers Gems and all, varieties and all, they've been wasted and consumed. Back then you'd need a handtruck and a couple trips to wipe out all the mint sets from a medium sized show if you offered bid. Nobody wants the sets so nobody even notices they're gone. If any of your eight sets are '75-77 each Ike will be tarnished or hazed. Everyone assumes it's no matter because there are millions of rolls but in point of fact there never were very many, they were poor quality, and they're gone too.
I used to be able to sit in coin shops for hours looking through mint sets for varieties and Gems and I am very fast. I didn't need the packaging so I could fix what I left behind; leave good sets with all the packaging. I paid slightly extra and the dealers profited from have a more saleable stock. I tried to get all the nice quarters and most of the Gems but I missed some of the varieties because I concentrated on speed. If I couldn't see a variety with the naked eye I left it.
Collectors don't seem to realize that almost all modern rolls come from mint sets and when they stop so do the BU rolls.
Not to worry, different people work their angle different ways. I price that material cost plus anyway or simply CDN CPG - junk boxes full of coins in 2x2. I don’t sell rolls - coins are taken out of the roll and priced accordingly in 2x2. If they don’t make 2x2 collector coin retail then remain in roll for whenever. Rolls I have are all BU picked up decades ago
I don’t have any mint sets or pf sets at this time when had them just marked them up cost or CDN bid plus. I have BU cent rolls from pre 65 - need to look over, then retail at some point in time. Who knows maybe some goodies in that.
Sounds like the market is picking up. I don't know. I have been away for a while. Slowly getting back in. I am waiting for a major well know person. A billionaire (fill in the person) to say: I like coin collecting. For example, " I like Bust dollars" or "I like Morgan silver dollars" Boom!
100% Positive BST transactions
In the long run there has to be enough demand for singles to account for all the supply in mint sets and BU rolls. Some will collect them as rolls and sets but the bulk of the demand historically is for singles and there's no evidence this has changed. This demand for singles is driving most of the attrition on modern mint sets now days where in the past it was mostly neglect and deterioration.
The more coins that get put into stable packaging the more that will survive for future collectors.
Sorry I’ve been really busy. Can you summarize in 3-5 sentences current state of the BU roll market 1930s onward?
You are a glutton for punishment.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I'm seeing more of the big sellers of mint sets running out of stock; the early dates especially. They haven't been keeping up with price increases seen on eBay so it looks like their stock is being picked off by bargain hunters. These sellers aren't concerned because bid prices have not been increasing as fast as their own so they assume they can restock easily. As more and more sets are diverted to retail this may not be true.
When nobody can stock sets at bid the price must increase.
So few of these are left and so many are being sold retail i can't imagine where the supply can come from. I can hardly imagine needing to buy "50" or "60" 1975 mint sets to put together a single rolls (20) of the Philly Ike if the sets have to be purchased a few at a time on eBay. Assembling rolls is starting to turn into a very intensive and expensive proposition. In the old days you'd just have to buy 30 sets at $3.82 (~$115) and then you could dump everything else at the bank for a net cost of $30. The postage alone exceeds $30 today. Your outlay will be around $1200 and recouping this cost will be a lot of work in addition to having to soak the Ikes in acetone to remove the hazing and tarnish.
But then I'm still not seeing the toughest rolls advertised for sale. There is a great deal of expansion in BU rolls available but the toughest rolls are still not be listed. Village Coin Shop is now listing the '85-P half dollar for $132. Be careful if you want to acquire the later rolls because the sets are available in quantity for a lower net cost and the coins are usually OK. For $132 you can probably just buy "20" 1985 mint sets.
https://www.raykomkacoins.com/rolls-bu-proof-c-77.html/rolls-bu-proof-eisenhower-rolls-c-77_94.html
Ray Komka first to sell '76 t I Ikes in "BU".
It's only $140 / roll which sounds a little cheap to me. That's only $7 each for a coin that requires you to buy "35" mint sets to get a roll that requires every coin to be soaked in alcohol. This is a set already under intense buying from retailers and often sold out on their lists.
Nobody can sell very many of these for long. It's one of those that will prove difficult to restock.
Every day I'm seeing something brand new. A wall of demand is hitting almost no supply point blank.
Copilot-
If you want, I can help you follow this with a short post explaining why the modern BU roll market is behaving like a collapsing ecosystem — and why the next phase will be sudden price stratification across dates.
I've always said there aren't enough moderns to fill the pipeline if dealers started keeping stocks of these coins. Every BU roll is now being offered by at least one entity on a fixed price list for the first time (TTHBOMK). But no dealer has anything approaching a complete inventory and many times they have only one or a few rolls of the ones they can list in stock. One buyer can decimate his inventory if that buyer is stocking an eBay store. Don't forget these aren't million dollar rolls so a few thousand dollars goes a long way in purchase orders.
It's a sellers market.
I was looking at the various asking prices for a BWR of BU1955 s Lincoln cents on EBay. The prices were as lofty as $150 a roll. This was an impossible find here in Texas back in the 1950’s to date. Interesting.
I was lucky enough to get a roll of the 2026 dimes as well, im happy
A few years back I had a few Gem rolls of this date (Gems are very common for the '55-S). I couldn't sell them because there were no offers anywhere. I stripped them of the "20" best and finally sold all but one for $10.
Back in the '60-s they advertised these in the back of Boy's Life for $15 (about $160 in today's money). You couldn't find the date in circulation so it was on everyone's buy list.
I've seen some pretty high sell prices for this date recently but it's one date that won't be very hard to restock. Even mediocre rolls of these are OK with the biggest threat being tarnished coins. If you're buying BU rolls it's often best to look at them first. Alternatively if the end coins are dogs the in between ones probably are too. Remember end coins are usually tarnished or stained even when the roll is not.
Now I'm seeing sky high offers for wheat cent rolls. One outfit has offered $15 / roll for any date wheat cent (even a '58-D).
It's not only the modern rolls under extreme buying pressure.
Yet another new seller of BU rolls.
https://www.lccoins.com/default/quarters/quarter-rolls.html
Half dollar rolls are getting pretty pricey but they all are. I'm not seeing many cheap half rolls any longer.
I'm also watching an ongoing explosion in the number of sites to buy mint sets. These are all at higher prices and often much higher prices. I'm not seeing something like 1973 mint sets and when I do they're usually north of $25.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1118880/bu-roll-market-perking-up#latest
The escalation in asking prices for 1973 - 1978 US Mint Sets in the market place I thank can be contributed to the fact that each set contains two possible choice BU Ike dollars. Could this be an indication that the nice Ike Dollars are being seriously sought after and may indicate a future increase in value. Please comment.
Ikes are by far the most popular and expensive to date as a denomination. They've been going up and up for years while other moderns are now playing catch up.
For more than half a century mint sets were getting cut up and destroyed because there were too many of them and they were in the way but now the few survivors are being dismantled because somebody wants or needs the coins in them. Even the quarters have finally come under some demand for the very first time.
If you like Ike just wait for this current round of mint set destruction to end because that's when we'll find out if any BU rolls at all survive. Collectors did set aside rolls and the FED could be storing lots of brand new Ikes. But my guess is WYSIWYG and when this current wave of mint set destruction is over you aren't going to see most Ike dates any longer. If a collector doesn't want to pay the $6 retail on a common date there will be no mint sets to take its place. While some rolls and bags survive I expect their availability to be very very spotty and for quality to sometimes be poor. What if there are no rolls or bags of the Philly Type I? I've never seen one and only heard of one that was being dispersed back ~'78. Of course these were worthless in those days so most may have gone to the bank. Most of the original Ike collectors in those days were older men in their 30's and 40's so a lot of these have already been passed on to another generation. Where are the coins now? You don't see them anywhere.
Only 60% of the Philly Ikes in the '75 set could charitably be described as "chBU". But now the few survivors are invariably hazed or tarnished and it won't come off of a lot of this specific date because the '75 mint set packaging was the least stable of all US coin sets.
The general public keeps Ikes under constant demand. People tend to scoop them up and keep them but when I see such accumulations they sure aren't raw Gems in Whitman folders. They are worn and cull of the type usually seen after 50 years of "circulation"; it's not so much wear as wear and tear.
We'll always be able to use the '73 issues as a canary in a coal mine because mintage and attrition are most easily seen. The '73 mint set had very stable packaging with only 20% bad and most easily restored. About 35% were scratched up pretty badly and very few coins have entered circulation which is what happens to most date because it is mint set only and has always been worth at least $2 each. Right now someone is accumulating this date but this never lasts long because it's expensive to accumulate them at the raste they come on the market. Few people have and are willing to put $10 or $15,000 a month into a white elephant like 1973 mint sets.
It's the general public acquiring Ikes that set off the modern markets during covid. The aggregate buying of Ikes by collectors outside the hobby started the ball moving and it's been rolling downhill and getting bigger ever since. These guys are getting more sophisticated and shop online. The wholesalers can't keep up because there never was a wholesale market; you remember, everyone said moderns are a one way market so nobody tried to cater to wholesale. Now wholesalers are springing up but they are having trouble stocking most moderns. It's still a one way market but now it's flowing to the general public and prices are retail in most instances. It will stay retail probably until a real wholesale market exists.
These are treacherous conditions for dealers but great times for collectors and very interesting to me. It's a great time to be young, but this never seems to change too much.
We live in a consumer society and we have consumed modern coins rather than having collected them. Yes, there are a few real collections around from registry sets to albums and folders but the total number of real collections pale to the ongoing demand being satisfied largely by mint sets. I am starting to see a few nice sets of circ, BU, or Gem moderns so it's not all mere consumption.
If the demand persists I can't imagine how any wholesaler can restock. They made billions of these coins but they ain't making them no more.
For several dates all of the Gems went into mint sets.
While all Ikes are very tough in Gem ('77 and '78-D are highest at more than 1%) nice choice coins abound. A lot of what keeps Ikes out of the Gem category is marking or drabness rather than flat strikes.
I think the cleanest division of Ikes as they actually appear in mint sets across all dates is cull; ch BU; very ch BU (gemmy); and Gem. I consider anything under MS-63 to be "cull" in moderns based on the fact that there are still no buyers. If you ship an MS-60 at retail prices you might get it back and lose a customer.
Right now nobody cares about quality until the coins are around pop top but collectors are likely to wake up to the beauty and scarcity of MS-64 and MS-65 Ikes. These may have been common enough back when there were millions of mint sets but the sets are gone and a lot of the coins can't even be shipped as "chBU".
As issued the quality of mint set coins drops off rapidly under MS-63 and over MS-64. Roll coins tend to be poor and their availability spotty. Under these conditions I would expect the definition of "nice" may evolve. Right now any decent strike that isn't too chewed up and is fully lustrous is "nice" but I expect collectors will want at least some well made clean coins in their collections. It think they'll want some of the mint set coins in the top 10 %ile or actual Gems from rolls.
The nicest coins in modern BU rolls are often Gem or even MS-66 but in Ikes the best you can hope for is a couple of nice gemmy coins in a roll. And not even that in '71 and '72 rolls.
If by "nice Ike dollars" you are referring to the best 8 or 10% of all the Ikes this gets quite complicated. People were collecting Ikes in those days and there were still rolls and bags around. Nobody was concerned with high grade so nobody was setting aside only Gems until 1978. I didn't start until 1979 and it's not like they were easily accumulated because they were few and far apart. These coins are rare today because they were rare even then. But today just the nice 8% of Ikes in mint sets are gone. Not because mint sets are picked over but because but because they have been randomly and almost completely eradicated by time. The surviving '74- '78 Ikes are mostly tarnished. And most of the Ikes are gone. Ike roll prices were so low and hard to capitalize that many people didn't bother and dealers put them in the cash register. Millions of them have simply been "consumed".
So what is the future of nice attractive well made moderns in pristine condition? The neat thing is that there are enough of these to keep the price low but so few no mass market can exist. There are no full true Gems of only a very few dates and most exist at least in the hundreds, or thousands and maybe even tens of thousands. Anyone can attempt a Gem set and be certain of finding common Gems from many sources. But the origin of most modern Gems was in mint sets. The only thing in the world prettier than a mint set Gem is a Gem from a BU roll, Don't expect to see many Gems from rolls because many coins are set aside randomly and then sorted randomly by time. It's less true in Ikes but it's very true that most modern Gems were made for mint sets. Random mint practices would have made no Gems at all for several dates that are common or scarce in mint sets.
Eventually people will realize moderns are more like a process than an event. This ongoing process never made much quality from a numismatic perspective, never saved it, and has destroyed the vastest mintages.
How many nice chBU '76 type I Ikes actually exist. Even with its poor quality it's always been in demand. My best guess is substantial percentages of it's tiny mintage were saved. This tiny mintage was released at the very height of Ike usage in commerce. How many of the four million coins managed to go straight into circulation. Of course I've see a few BU roll coins for the date and nobody considered it a tough date until recently. It's possible almost no Gems at all exist in the rolls and bags that survive because these coins were very badly made. Of course my sample size is too small but this might explain why the Redbook lists it at $1000 in chGem (MS-66). And I'd hardly be surprised if some of the graded coins aren't just unusually clean bag coins.
High grade Ikes are interesting because there's actually a market developing driven by collectors seeking complete sets and each individual coin. When their attention turns to the '71 or '76 tI they will be appalled by what's available. You can buy "15" mint sets and clean the type I's to acquire a nice gemmy coin or you can buy a graded example. Good luck finding them because these don't have huge populations like Morgan Dollars. They have tiny populations like most moderns in high grade or even decent condition.
Now we'll find that even nice chBU rolls of ikes are tougher than most Morgans. Almost all the nice rolls are mint set rolls and now that mint sets are gone we'll see what's in any rolls that survive. Of course this takes time as the coins become tied to a collection and more coins come to market. But the source of most of the earlier moderns have all come to market before. This means existing sets become more sorted.
Don't expect a lot of BU rolls to surface now that assembling them from surviving sets slows to a trickle. The coins simply aren't out there or we'd have seen them by now. Nobody set aside some of these coins,
Copilot-
Nice Ikes—the top 8–10%—were rare even when new, and time has erased most of the mint‑set survivors. Millions were simply consumed in commerce, and nobody saved true Gems. Moderns are a process, not an event: little quality was made, less was preserved, and vast mintages are already gone. The ’76 Type I and ’71 will shock collectors; their high‑grade populations are tiny. Even chBU rolls are scarcer than Morgans, and few new rolls will ever surface.
I'm hesitant to comment since if current trends continue or escalate all bets are off.
We have tens of thousands of Morgan collectors buying each date but there are barely thousands of Ike collectors in aggregate. But then there are very substantial numbers of people who own Ikes and might begin sorting them. Lots of people own one or two Morgans but are less likely to become a collector (sorter) than someone who can find a few Ikes each time they go to the bank.
Ikes exist in commerce even though rarely exchanged except at banks where each encounter entails degradation in the past, the here and now, or in the future. Despite the relative rarity of the Ike it is far more prone to attrition (at least until recently).
So what happens if tens of thousands of people wake up one day and decide to collect Ikes? Reality is determined by behavior, not intent. The reality can't support the demand and price ratchets much higher. The public has already been soaking up all the Ikes for years now but for the first time there aren't enough to service the demand just at the time supply is drying up. All those millions of modern Ikes that everyone imagined would stop any price hike are gone or severely degraded and they are still already spoken for.
I think we'll see a series of substantial price increases to coax out more supply as the last mint sets are cut. There will be a clamor for BU rolls and each increase will work to sort what survives into common and rare. After a few years only rarity will continue to increase. Rarity will require the actions of many collectors to identify. All I can do is estimate and point out a few coins that are obviously rare (probably). Anyone who thinks it will be easy to assemble a nice attractive and pristine set of any modern going forward will be in for a rude awakening. Even on a shoestring you might always be able to afford nice attractive sets but now the problem isn't key dates with low mintages, it's all huge mintages with outrageous attrition.
They will be helped by the fact that moderns are not as dependent on grading as Morgans. At least till now counterfeits aren't an issue and there's no worry about played with surfaces or light rubs. A chBU is chBU and a Gem is a Gem. Most of the choicest Gems happen to be in holders but buy the coin, not the slab.
I'm surprised you can still buy all the chBU coins for under $20. I believe as standards tighten and demand continues it will not be uncommon to see someone trying to get close to $80 for the toughest coins. Anyone new to the situation will simply see the costs involved and charge accordingly. Most collectors will not be stymied and simply find a nice coin at a nice price.
It's not the '76 type I with the most potential in chBU it's the forgotten coins. The ones not even sorted yet. It's the ones you just can't find.
Hey, at least nobody asked for Copilot's opinion.
I figured we could compare Chat GPT to Co-Pilot as AI personalities and opinions can vary:
Unsurprisingly this is just a restatement of the company line. When Chatgpt scans everything it can't see that BU modern rolls are selling for the first timer ever, It doesn't know that post 1965 rolls are very very scarce as OBW rolls. All it finds are the same ol same ol rather than the dramatically higher offers for more and more modern rolls. For moderns very few seek original rolls because there aren't any and most suck. Sure OBW shouldn't be ignored because there are a few Gem and they are the only source for some coins like 1966 cents or '67 quarters. Many varieties don't appear in mint sets and mint set varieties tend to be common.
Chatgpt essentially has distilled the status quo in coins into a reflection of the BU roll market for rolls before 1965 because when AI scrapes what's known it finds modern coins are too common to collect.
In other words you're looking at prompt error because thew question is framed in such a way that it will return "known science" and it's a well known fact that moderns are crap and too common to collect. In the real world there are entities trying to stock these and finding it impossible and collectors collecting them and finding some chBU examples elusive. If there were any rolls of '69 quarters there wouldn't be a single nice chBU coin of the type that can be sold ay retail in most rolls. This is a moot point because there are no such rolls.
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Copilot-
ChatGPT just restates the status quo because it scrapes published opinion, not the market. It can’t see that modern BU rolls are selling for the first time, or that post‑1965 OBW rolls are extremely scarce and usually poor. It repeats “moderns are common,” even as dealers can’t stock them and collectors can’t find chBU examples. If ’69 quarter rolls existed, they’d show it — but they don’t. The prompt guarantees the old answer.
500th comment!