Do you consider 1909-S V.D.B. essential to make for a complete date/mint set of Lincolns, 1909-1940?
mr1931S
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I've owned 1909-S V.D.B. penny but presently don't own an example of it, having sold it awhile back to raise some cash. I consider my 1909-1940 set of business strike wheat pennies to be complete without an S-V.D.B. and I have no intention of acquiring another example of this variety.
Yes, that's what 1909-S penny with stamp of V.D.B. on it's reverse is, a variety. Another coin that is not and never has been in my penny collection is an example of 1922-D no 'D' as it is an error issue.
I put blanks or 3.1 gram planchets in my Whitman album (#9405, Lincoln Cent, 1909-1940) for these two coins, a variety and a mint error. I sleep soundly at night with the knowledge that my 1909-1940 penny collection is complete.
FYI, Q. David Bowers considers 1909-S V.D.B. penny a variety and his writings about same is what I am basing my reasoning on.
“We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves.” — Gautama Buddha
Comments
yes
the vdb was minted first.
wouldn't a coin without it be the variety?
“Do you consider 1909-S V.D.B. essential to make for a complete date/mint set of Lincolns, 1909-1940?”
How could you not?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was just about to say that.
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Yes! Of course,
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Yes
If an album or folder lists a 1909-S-VDB, 1922 no D or 1955 DDO and the coins are not physically "IN" the album or folder, the set is not complete. An 09 S-VDB, 22 no D or 55DDO in a slab, doesn't count! 🤣 😂 I wanta see these coins in the holes of the albums or folders! 🤣 😂
Edit: I wonder how many are out there. You think there are guys out there that have broken them out just to fill the holes in an album or folder? 😂 🤣
While we do get to define the completeness of our own collections, in my opinion the 1909-S V.D.B. is essential because the Mint made it with intent and separated its mintage from the non-V.D.B. issue. I would consider the 1909 V.D.B. Doubled Die Obverse non-essential because the Mint did not intend for the doubling to exist.
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There is something to be said for a one a year collection, if you are on a budget, but if you are collecting the Lincoln Cent set, the 1909-S-VDB is part of it.
You could leave out the 1922 Plain. That is only a die state. The 1955 doubled die is a die variety. You don’t have to have it unless album holes bother you. There are many Lincoln Cent doubled dies. That one has become famous.
Another decent example:
I've seen two types of Dansco Buffalo nickel albums. One has representative openings for the 18/17 and the 3-legged. The other does not.
I'd think, should the collector choose the first binder and he leaves those two coins out it is not a complete collection. If he chooses the second set he would then be in possession of a complete set.
100% agree.
Two of my sets of these nickels.
Dansco with the Varieties:
Dansco without the varieties:
@braddick - You and I are brothers of different mothers!! 🤣 👍
Yes, I've always considered the 1909-S VDB integral to a complete set of Lincoln Cents... the 1922-Plain and 1955-DDO are error coins (IMHO) and only exist because of a flaw in the minting process that produced them.
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Yes, but it’s your set and excluding the VDB varieties is defensible. Hard to defend excluding the SVDB if you included the PVDB tho.
The 1909-S V.D.B should be considered more as a major type.
And yes, it absolutely belongs in a complete set of Lincoln Cents.
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For me, it’s essential (not that I have one, yet). If you’re just looking for an example of each date and mint mark together, you can choose to go without it, I suppose. It’s a 1 year anomaly.
I believe it is part of the complete set. So I will have to make peace with the fact that, unless I am extremely lucky or win the lottery, I will never complete mine......
Can I ask what is your "defense" that is not included?
Seems to me, it would be hard to conclude that the first coins of a new design type struck were not needed for a complete set of that type and a later struck variety was, but people make all kinds of arguments every day.
And going by what QDB thinks is somewhat of an "Appeal to Authority" argument.
I don’t collect cents, but even non-collectors know that the 1909S VDB is an iconic coin. A 1909-1940 set without this coin would be incomplete in my opinion.
Both shouting and whispering ones are needed for a complete set.
Convention requires it for a complete set. While you have a technically complete date/mint set of Lincolns without it, it is not considered complete by numismatists without the VDB types.
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I’m sorry that you had to sell it.
What he said.
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Yes it is the key to the set and is mostly affordable for most collectors (even if some have to save up for a long while they can usually get there). I do not consider some coins part of a collection such as the 1894-S dime and 1804 dollar they are just not affordable for 99% of collectors.
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What about the steel cents? I'd think without the war cents the 1909 - 1940 set would be incomplete too.
I think the steel cents were minted after 1940?
Yes, of course it is essential to be included in a Lincoln cent collection. It is not a variety as it was the first type minted, and had it not been for the prejudices of the day, probably would have continued to the end of the series.
I do, but not for albums. I have mine slabbed and a non vdb in the album so it doesn’t have an empty hole
Mr_Spud
Yes.
For Buffalo Nickels, 18/17 and 3-Leg are in the same catagory as 22 no D and 55 Double-Die. Not required.
The US involvement in the war (WWII) was from 1941 through 1945. The steel cents were minted in 1943. In 1940 they weren't even a twinkle in the mintmaster's eye.
Of course.
I appreciate your opinion yet must strongly disagree.
I think the 1909-S VDB should be considered more as a variety.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It is, from a certain point of view, "just a variety". However, it is only only considered a "major variety", but a major variety that has been included in every single penny album ever since penny albums were first invented. In that sense, it has become "entrenched" in what everyone instinctively considers to be a "complete set".
But, technically, if all you want to assemble is a "complete date-mintmark set of pennies", then all you would need for it would be one of each date-mintmark combination. The "1909-S" slot in such a set could be filled by either the "with" or "without" VDB.
It should perhaps be pointed out that the only reason the 1909-S-VDB is in such high demand (and therefore price) is because it's commonly regarded as "essential to complete the set", and the albums and folders are the reason collectors think that way. If the folders and albums had never included a slot for it, those coins would have neither the prestige nor the price they do now.
The debate is not entirely unlike the debate surrounding the "necessity" for including a 1955 Doubled Die. And the reasoning behind it is essentially identical: the albums ever since 1955 have all had a slot for the "1955 doubled die"; it is therefore considered "essential" by everyone with one of those albums, despite technically being "merely just another variety".
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Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
They are BOTH varieties. But the
VDB would be the original
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I feel it is important to include the small date 1970-S in the 1909-1940 set.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I needed money so that I could go to a concert. I don't regret decision to let my SVDB go. As for being on the same page as Bowers, initially I thought he was wrong about SVDB being a variety but then it dawned on me one day that Q. David is not wrong. 1909-SVDB cent is a variety of 1909-S. I suppose that technically the same could be said about 1909 PVDB but calling my set "complete" without at least one example with VDB from year 1909 I cannot abide.
I let my Philly issue V.D.B. do the work of representing Lincoln cent with V.D.B. reverse in my album. My '14-D and '31-S are in slabs, so what I do is affix a tiny sticker to a 3.1 gram planchet for placement in their respective album openings to indicate that I do in fact have these pieces as part of the set.
I even have little easels for the slabbed pieces to occupy when I want to display this set to another collector or get it out for myself to admire in it's entirety. Average overall grade is choice XF. The "best" coin in my set is my '14-D. It's a PCGS VF-30 CAC. I have even toyed with the radical idea of cracking my '14-D for placement into the album opening but common sense prevailed and I eventually talked myself out of doing that.
“We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves.” — Gautama Buddha
That's a Memorial cent.
Let's stick with Wheatbacks please.
Although I do admire the courage it took to state such an opinion.
You can define a "complete set" however you want, for your purposes.
For instance, I define a "complete set" of Morgan dollars to not include the 1895 proof, since no 1895 Morgan dollar struck in Philadelphia that year was issued for circulation. Others probably don't agree. The fact that the 1895 Morgan is astonishingly expensive cements that veiw.
I don't consider the 1918/7-S standing Liberty quarter to be an essential part of a "complete set" of SLQs, since it's a rare variety/error (and very expensive, of course).
I don't consider the 1909-S-over-horizontal-S to be an essential part of a "complete set" of Lincoln cents, since it's a variety/error. Same with the 1922 "plain" and the 1955 DDO. (I have all three, because I think they're cool and Lincoln cents are my favorite set, but I don't think that such varieties are an essential part of a "normal" complete set).
But I consider the 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent, perhaps the best-known "rare coin" in the country, to be an absolutely essential part of a "complete set" of Lincoln cents. It was purpose-struck for circulation; they changed the issue mid-year, to remove the VDB, but that doesn't change the fact that both versions were purpose-struck for circulation, and (IMO) both are an essential part of a complete date-and-mintmark-set of Lincoln cents. Heck, if nothing else, the non-VDB version would be considered the "variety," if one wanted to (not that I would agree, mind you).
And it's not like it's as expensive as, say, the 1916 SLQ.
You mean something like this?
The 09SVDB is required for a complete set in my opinion. Even as a kid I knew this.
The 22 No D, is a die state and I do not consider it needed for a complete set. But !! Since Dansco included the hole in my album, I felt the need to find one to fill the hole.
If you collect by album, you need to fill the entire album to complete the set. I never saw a Lincoln cent album without the 1909-S VDB space (except for one per date sets-where mintmarks don't matter.) If you make your own album, you can include or exclude anything you want and call it a complete set when all the spaces are filled.
That's just a Wheat cent major variety...
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Do like I do……when I didn’t like someone in high school, I just took a black magic marker and scribbled all over their face in my yearbook annual. Easy peasy….and worked like a charm! So if you mark that spot off in your Whitman holder it’s as though it didn’t exist! I’ll bet theses same folks here think you’d the 1913 Liberty nickel to complete that set too, right? 🤔🤪😂
I needed money so that I could go to a concert.
That must have been some concert. I remember my first concert that I went to was to see Jefferson Airplane in 1968 - cost me $5 but I didn't have to hock the family jewels to go to it. Hope you didn't waste your money on Taylor Swift.
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How is it a variety if it was the first minted?
Great post! Thank you for it.
“We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves.” — Gautama Buddha
Oh yeah. That was some concert and worth every penny (no pun intended) I spent for travel, lodging, and tickets for myself and a guest. To be clear, I am not a Swifty.
“We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves.” — Gautama Buddha