@P0CKETCHANGE said:
I've decided to cross just a single coin, which is in a pre-prong NGC holder (with line, not an old holder) that has the hologram on the reverse completely scratched out. It does have a CAC sticker, but it's pre-CACG, so it will sport the "legacy" indicator on the new holder.
Here is the crossover result. I dropped it off to CACG at the FUN show, and received it back in the mail today—fast! It crossed at the same grade on the NGC holder, PR64CAM.
However, I'm not sure why it did not get the "legacy" designation. I am 99% sure it was a pre-CACG sticker, given I stated so in my last post.
I think CACG's close-up imagery is excellent and captures the coin accurately (always difficult with proofs). I would like to see another version where they directly light up the mirrors on proofs, so you can see the coin both ways.
Based on the experience and photo quality, I will definitely consider crossing more coins in the future.
Regarding holder obsession, I must admit to having one since I like clear slabs vs white. As such, I prefer PCGS and CACG versions. I also admit to liking OGH for the nostalgia since it harkens to the 1990s and the green insert is attractive to me. As such, I'm willing to pay a premium for it. However, if the coin itself is a dog with either good breath or bad regardless of holder style or age, I won't own it. Pretty simple, isn't it?
Seated Half Society member #38
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress, running like a water color in the rain...."
@skier07 said:
I may be in the minority but you’re better off without the “L”. A disproportionate number of “Ls” were most likely in NGC holders.
To me, the "L" makes no difference. While I don't have any NGC slabs, that's only because the PCGS Registry is important to me, and as we all know, their Registry does not allow coins in other holders other than their own.
However, with that said, I know for a FACT that if I did buy coins in NGC holders, I would have no problem at all buying a coin I liked in an NGC holder with a CAC sticker! While "The Market" values stickered coins in NGC holders less than an "identical coin" in a stickered PCGS holder, that means I may even be able to buy that NGC stickered coin at a lower price, AND I WOULD! Personally, I put a LOT of weight on CAC's opinion, so if they sticker that NGC holder, that tells me they believe the coin is solid for the grade on that NGC holder, and the surfaces in their opinion have not been messed with! That's all I need to know, as long as I like the coin itself.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@skier07 said:
I may be in the minority but you’re better off without the “L”. A disproportionate number of “Ls” were most likely in NGC holders.
What difference does it make what holder the coin was in, especially when potential buyers aren’t going to know, anyway?
Someone would need to have an extreme, IMO irrational, aversion to NGC to discount a Legacy coin on the mere chance that it crossed from NGC. It does take all kinds but I doubt that this kind of behavior is statistically relevant to demand/price.
The price for 1st Gen holders would argue otherwise. See the thread on 10800014. It's not the coin driving the price of that holder. Sometimes, but always, the coin is less important than the holder. [Doubt it ever applies to older blue holders, btw.]
Of course there is an exception to everything. There is a group of people that love the earliest holders and are collecting the holder more than the coin. Like this one below that sold for over 50x it’s stated retail prices (and thank you to the auction winner!). But that is different, than the generic idea being discussed here about does a holder increase the value of the coin inside? Probably not with the exception of some of the ‘earliest’ holders that some are specifically collecting.
While I do believe old holder coins sell for more than newer ones regardless of the quality of coin inside, it's worth noting that a significant amount of the old holder craze is due to the prospect of gold CAC stickers. The coin you mentioned was awarded one sometime after the auction. The floor for a gold CAC sticker coin is about $500. With that in mind, it becomes clear that the bidding frenzy was driven by the coin's exceptional quality more than by its holder (although if the same coin had been in a new holder, who knows how much less it might have sold for and if it would've even been awarded the gold bean?)
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
@Rule556 said:
Honestly, although I only have a small collection, I have about 25 or so CACG coins in my type set and peace dollar registry. To a coin, they’re all extremely nice for the grade compared to many of my PCGS coins.
In my little niche I’m just n the process of changing over my peace dollar set from a mix of PCGS and NGC graded coins to CACG and PCGS/CAC. It’s a slider set so they’re all AU58 (except for my 34S graded AU55 PCGS/CAC). It’s really interesting looking at the whole collection with all the duplicates. The CACG coins are just so much nicer than their PCGS siblings in the same grade.
I’m perfectly fine paying a premium for them similar to PCGS/CAC. They’re consistent enough, at least in the narrow focus of my experience, that I have confidence buying a CACG coin with a crappy photo. I won’t buy PCGS or NGC without being able to see very HQ images. I’ve purchased too many dogs in the past that are hard to move on from.
I think if they’re able to keep this quality up, they’ll continue to gain market share quickly.
my photos vs their’s
Just for grins, here is the coin that the above replaced in my collection. This is mainly an example of my inexperience, as this is one of the first peace dollars that I purchased when I started collecting.
There's a fine line between "extremely nice for the grade" and undergraded. I agree that the PCGS coin may not be the nicest AU58, but I can't be the only one thinking that the CACG coin is unquestionably uncirculated.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
@Cougar1978 said:
In terms of pricing - How much of a (premium) tackon for the CACG L coin?
$35.00 each, if you asking about their grading / crossover fee.
He was probably asking about price/value premiums for L-designated coins.
Based on his posting history he appears to be married to price guides and specific margins (regardless of cost or market conditions), as well as one size fits all for premiums.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@skier07 said:
I may be in the minority but you’re better off without the “L”. A disproportionate number of “Ls” were most likely in NGC holders.
What difference does it make what holder the coin was in, especially when potential buyers aren’t going to know, anyway?
Like I said before I’m probably in the minority and maybe muy loco but I think more coins with the “L” designation were previously in NGC holders with a sticker. A fair number of these NGC/CAC coins did not cross into PCGS holders despite having a sticker. I can personally attest to this. I also believe there were quite a few dealers who initially sent most of their NGC/CAC coins to CACG in the belief (rightly or wrongly) that their coin would sell for more money. I think it’s pretty fair to say that the PCGS/CAC combo is the gold standard at least today. The bottom line at least for me is to buy the coin and not the holder and I’m happy to take home an NGC/CAC coin if it has all the bells and whistles.
My stickered coins sold off ages ago when started procuring CACG. Many low pop ones of those. Have realized good sales, etc. Witter brick high demand. Also loading up on PQ PCGS. Still hunting the CACG L coins see if they tough to find. Perhaps silver will soar up again. Mexico Libertads really popular now especially slabbed PCGS. . Many made a big killing in them that nite silver soared to $140.
@Walkerfan said:
For the record, I also like NGC/CAC. I’d have never completed my set in its best and highest possible level or form had I not decided to include some stellar NGC examples that became available to me.
I have both in my collection. My 1796 No Stars quarter Eagle and my Pan-Pac $50 round gold piece are NGC graded. The $50 gold is graded MS-64 with a green CAC sticker. It’s better than my octagonal piece which is PCGS graded MS-64 CAC.
All grading services have “hits” and “misses.” No one is perfect, including the much vaunted CAC sticker.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
There's a fine line between "extremely nice for the grade" and undergraded. I agree that the PCGS coin may not be the nicest AU58, but I can't be the only one thinking that the CACG coin is unquestionably uncirculated.
Admittedly, this is the biggest disparity between the two TPGs that I have in my collection, but it does illustrate the potential range in eye appeal for a single grade.
In hand, while that 58+ looks amazing, there is some small amount of wear that does seem to not be simple bagginess but it's admittedly very subtle. That line between AU and UNC can be fuzzy at best. I collect sliders, so this one came down on my preferred side. I'm sure the person who sent it in for grading was not so pleased. LOL
Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
@Rule556 said:
In hand, while that 58+ looks amazing, there is some small amount of wear that does seem to not be simple bagginess but it's admittedly very subtle. That line between AU and UNC can be fuzzy at best. I collect sliders, so this one came down on my preferred side. I'm sure the person who sent it in for grading was not so pleased. LOL
Often times this is “cabinet friction” or “slide friction”. The coin didn’t actually circulate, but it contacted a surface repeatedly in a coin cabinet or whatever else the coin was stored in, whether an actual coin cabinet or an album where the plastic slider was slid directly across the surfaces multiple times.
CAC/G is very strict on this and will drop a coin down into AU regardless of how nice the rest of the coin looks. This is a great cherry-picking opportunity IMO…you can find coins with uncirculated eye appeal at a circulated price point, as it sounds like you are doing. I have a few 58s that I like better than 63s.
Other TPGs seem to be more forgiving, Hell I had a coin in MS66 that JA told me had high point friction! This is probably why, on average, you are seeing higher quality, more attractive 58s in CACG holders.
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
Often times this is “cabinet friction” or “slide friction”. The coin didn’t actually circulate, but it contacted a surface repeatedly in a coin cabinet or whatever else the coin was stored in, whether an actual coin cabinet or an album where the plastic slider was slid directly across the surfaces multiple times.
CAC/G is very strict on this and will drop a coin down into AU regardless of how nice the rest of the coin looks. This is a great cherry-picking opportunity IMO…you can find coins with uncirculated eye appeal at a circulated price point, as it sounds like you are doing. I have a few 58s that I like better than 63s.
Other TPGs seem to be more forgiving, Hell I had a coin in MS66 that JA told me had high point friction! This is probably why, on average, you are seeing higher quality, more attractive 58s in CACG holders.
I absolutely agree, and this is why I've already almost completed moving my slider set to CACG or PCGS/CAC.
Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
Comments
Here is the crossover result. I dropped it off to CACG at the FUN show, and received it back in the mail today—fast! It crossed at the same grade on the NGC holder, PR64CAM.
However, I'm not sure why it did not get the "legacy" designation. I am 99% sure it was a pre-CACG sticker, given I stated so in my last post.
I think CACG's close-up imagery is excellent and captures the coin accurately (always difficult with proofs). I would like to see another version where they directly light up the mirrors on proofs, so you can see the coin both ways.
Based on the experience and photo quality, I will definitely consider crossing more coins in the future.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I may be in the minority but you’re better off without the “L”. A disproportionate number of “Ls” were most likely in NGC holders.
Yeah, I don't have any issues not having the legacy designation on this coin. However, I can understand the argument from both sides:
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Regarding holder obsession, I must admit to having one since I like clear slabs vs white. As such, I prefer PCGS and CACG versions. I also admit to liking OGH for the nostalgia since it harkens to the 1990s and the green insert is attractive to me. As such, I'm willing to pay a premium for it. However, if the coin itself is a dog with either good breath or bad regardless of holder style or age, I won't own it. Pretty simple, isn't it?
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
To me, the "L" makes no difference. While I don't have any NGC slabs, that's only because the PCGS Registry is important to me, and as we all know, their Registry does not allow coins in other holders other than their own.
However, with that said, I know for a FACT that if I did buy coins in NGC holders, I would have no problem at all buying a coin I liked in an NGC holder with a CAC sticker! While "The Market" values stickered coins in NGC holders less than an "identical coin" in a stickered PCGS holder, that means I may even be able to buy that NGC stickered coin at a lower price, AND I WOULD! Personally, I put a LOT of weight on CAC's opinion, so if they sticker that NGC holder, that tells me they believe the coin is solid for the grade on that NGC holder, and the surfaces in their opinion have not been messed with! That's all I need to know, as long as I like the coin itself.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
What difference does it make what holder the coin was in, especially when potential buyers aren’t going to know, anyway?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Someone would need to have an extreme, IMO irrational, aversion to NGC to discount a Legacy coin on the mere chance that it crossed from NGC. It does take all kinds but I doubt that this kind of behavior is statistically relevant to demand/price.
My first CACG crossover submission went two out of three.
PCGS w/green CAC - crossed at grade.
NGC w/green CAC - crossed at grade.
NGC w/o CAC - Did Not Cross.
...and the turnaround time was a little over a week!
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
In terms of pricing - How much of a (premium) tackon for the CACG L coin?
While I do believe old holder coins sell for more than newer ones regardless of the quality of coin inside, it's worth noting that a significant amount of the old holder craze is due to the prospect of gold CAC stickers. The coin you mentioned was awarded one sometime after the auction. The floor for a gold CAC sticker coin is about $500. With that in mind, it becomes clear that the bidding frenzy was driven by the coin's exceptional quality more than by its holder (although if the same coin had been in a new holder, who knows how much less it might have sold for and if it would've even been awarded the gold bean?)
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
There's a fine line between "extremely nice for the grade" and undergraded. I agree that the PCGS coin may not be the nicest AU58, but I can't be the only one thinking that the CACG coin is unquestionably uncirculated.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
$35.00 each, if you asking about their grading / crossover fee.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
He was probably asking about price/value premiums for L-designated coins.
Based on his posting history he appears to be married to price guides and specific margins (regardless of cost or market conditions), as well as one size fits all for premiums.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Like I said before I’m probably in the minority and maybe muy loco but I think more coins with the “L” designation were previously in NGC holders with a sticker. A fair number of these NGC/CAC coins did not cross into PCGS holders despite having a sticker. I can personally attest to this. I also believe there were quite a few dealers who initially sent most of their NGC/CAC coins to CACG in the belief (rightly or wrongly) that their coin would sell for more money. I think it’s pretty fair to say that the PCGS/CAC combo is the gold standard at least today. The bottom line at least for me is to buy the coin and not the holder and I’m happy to take home an NGC/CAC coin if it has all the bells and whistles.
Many in coin club prefer CACG and PCGS.
My stickered coins sold off ages ago when started procuring CACG. Many low pop ones of those. Have realized good sales, etc. Witter brick high demand. Also loading up on PQ PCGS. Still hunting the CACG L coins see if they tough to find. Perhaps silver will soar up again. Mexico Libertads really popular now especially slabbed PCGS. . Many made a big killing in them that nite silver soared to $140.
I have both in my collection. My 1796 No Stars quarter Eagle and my Pan-Pac $50 round gold piece are NGC graded. The $50 gold is graded MS-64 with a green CAC sticker. It’s better than my octagonal piece which is PCGS graded MS-64 CAC.
All grading services have “hits” and “misses.” No one is perfect, including the much vaunted CAC sticker.
Admittedly, this is the biggest disparity between the two TPGs that I have in my collection, but it does illustrate the potential range in eye appeal for a single grade.
In hand, while that 58+ looks amazing, there is some small amount of wear that does seem to not be simple bagginess but it's admittedly very subtle. That line between AU and UNC can be fuzzy at best. I collect sliders, so this one came down on my preferred side. I'm sure the person who sent it in for grading was not so pleased. LOL
Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
CACG Registry
MyCollect Registry
Often times this is “cabinet friction” or “slide friction”. The coin didn’t actually circulate, but it contacted a surface repeatedly in a coin cabinet or whatever else the coin was stored in, whether an actual coin cabinet or an album where the plastic slider was slid directly across the surfaces multiple times.
CAC/G is very strict on this and will drop a coin down into AU regardless of how nice the rest of the coin looks. This is a great cherry-picking opportunity IMO…you can find coins with uncirculated eye appeal at a circulated price point, as it sounds like you are doing. I have a few 58s that I like better than 63s.
Other TPGs seem to be more forgiving, Hell I had a coin in MS66 that JA told me had high point friction! This is probably why, on average, you are seeing higher quality, more attractive 58s in CACG holders.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I absolutely agree, and this is why I've already almost completed moving my slider set to CACG or PCGS/CAC.
Newbie collector of type and circulated Peace dollars, photographer of places and animals, player of instruments and builder of amplifiers, espresso industry professional, and a person distracted by shiny objects.
CACG Registry
MyCollect Registry