@coinkat said:
Dealers and collectors basically need to be careful what they wish for. The Baltimore Show in Winter and Fall have been well attended. Most dealers seem to do well. Summer seems to be not as popular… not sure if it is that Baltimore heat and humidity and getting motivated to deal with it. Instead of changing Baltimore, how about reducing the shows in Baltimore to two shows with the third rotating between DC and Philadelphia? This would keep the I-95 corridor in play. And perhaps the timing could be adjusted somewhat to avoid the worst of the heat- possibly Early February followed by the third week in May and either the third week in October or first or second week of November?
I think there is risk in leaving Baltimore completely, but it might be worth a shot to add DC and Philly into the rotation.
Philly is great. There was never an issue with Philly, other than what is now confronting Whitman with Baltimore. It is a huge convention town, and Whitman is a tiny convention.
So it's hard to make the numbers work for Whitman. And then, the unions are HUGE PITA to deal with in Philly. They add costs that the dealers hate, hate, hate. If Whitman can work these things out, Philly would be a gazillion times more successful for everyone than Baltimore ever was.
As for DC, I'm waiting to see how people react to a 5.75% sales tax on all transactions. Is it going to be cash only, with the taxing authorities looking the other way? Because I'm pretty sure retail is going to otherwise balk at the surcharge.
Which will kill the show, unless dealers are willing to make the trip, a month after FUN, just to do a day of dealer to dealer transactions before going home. Which will still kill the show aside from the dealer day. Really not much of a show then, no?
I love your optimism! We have gotten a lot of great initial feedback from dealers. We're all looking for new places to visit and there are a TON of potential collectors in DC. Everyone in the world comes to DC and the city deserves a show. Plus, Stacks will be there with an awesome auction for viewing.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
We are doing a ONE-OFF in the DC convention center next February due to lack of availability in Baltimore in February or March. Baltimore has been a great home to Expo for decades, but the hotels are a real challenge, and the DC Convention center is BEAUTIFUL with plenty of hotel rooms within 1-2 blocks. We made this decision with a LOT of consideration, but frankly we had few options. It is the challenge of show operators to negotiate with convention centers that consider us tiny (by usage standards).
I think it's going to be a great show, and really exciting. There's so much to do in Washington and I think it's going to be a fun event to attend.
While our first city choice for Whitman Expo remains Baltimore, we have to look around at the same time. We are looking at all options for Whitman Expo going forward and dealer/visitor feedback will be crucial.
Appreciate your response. Unfortunately, Baltimore continues to drop the ball and I understand why your team made this decision.
I believe this will become a permanent move. Best wishes for a great show and I am sorry to see you go!
Baltimore didn't "drop the ball" here. They basically kicked Whitman to the curb.
Whitman has been there how many years in a row now, three times a year, and yet they couldn't give them a slot in February or March. Iit will only "become a permanent move" if it does well, which is why it is a one-off for now.
The Baltimore convention center agency ("Visit Baltimore") is going to do what's in their best interest. We use 1-2 halls max, and if they are able to fill the whole center with a single event, they do it. Can't really blame them, and that's the reality we inherited with the show. However, we see lemonade from lemons. We'll try DC, and maybe some others (Philly, for sure an option, as are other places.) I like the general vicinity of I-95 in this region -- it's my home after all.
John, your replies have basically agreed with the info/rumors at summer FUN. But there was one other part that I am curious about. Starting with this past (2026) February and March shows the Long Beach (Stacks) then ANA and then Whitman Baltimore were back to back weeks. This due to Stacks jumping in late with the LB show the week before ANA. This is probably not an ideal layout to maximize show attendance.
For 2027 the first week of March is the ANA and the second week is the Stacks LB. Again back to back weeks. Whitman has the Stacks auction association with its show. It was stated that Stacks requested that the Whitman show be moved (in time or on the calendar and not location-wise) so that it did not 'compete' with their Stacks LB show date (example not the following week or similar).
So was wondering, if you can share, how much if any of the above two items played into Whitman trying to get a convention show date?
I can confirm to you that we had to adjust our dates based on ANA and Stack's events. I also think it's a win-win to have a February show. Long Beach was always in February back in the day. We need a good show a month after FUN. (And a week after Berlin, FWIW.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@coinkat said:
Dealers and collectors basically need to be careful what they wish for. The Baltimore Show in Winter and Fall have been well attended. Most dealers seem to do well. Summer seems to be not as popular… not sure if it is that Baltimore heat and humidity and getting motivated to deal with it. Instead of changing Baltimore, how about reducing the shows in Baltimore to two shows with the third rotating between DC and Philadelphia? This would keep the I-95 corridor in play. And perhaps the timing could be adjusted somewhat to avoid the worst of the heat- possibly Early February followed by the third week in May and either the third week in October or first or second week of November?
I think there is risk in leaving Baltimore completely, but it might be worth a shot to add DC and Philly into the rotation.
Philly is great. There was never an issue with Philly, other than what is now confronting Whitman with Baltimore. It is a huge convention town, and Whitman is a tiny convention.
So it's hard to make the numbers work for Whitman. And then, the unions are HUGE PITA to deal with in Philly. They add costs that the dealers hate, hate, hate. If Whitman can work these things out, Philly would be a gazillion times more successful for everyone than Baltimore ever was.
As for DC, I'm waiting to see how people react to a 5.75% sales tax on all transactions. Is it going to be cash only, with the taxing authorities looking the other way? Because I'm pretty sure retail is going to otherwise balk at the surcharge.
Which will kill the show, unless dealers are willing to make the trip, a month after FUN, just to do a day of dealer to dealer transactions before going home. Which will still kill the show aside from the dealer day. Really not much of a show then, no?
I love your optimism! We have gotten a lot of great initial feedback from dealers. We're all looking for new places to visit and there are a TON of potential collectors in DC. Everyone in the world comes to DC and the city deserves a show. Plus, Stacks will be there with an awesome auction for viewing.
Sorry for the "optimism," and I do greatly appreciate your willingness to engage. But people who balk at paying an admission fee for a show will absolutely not accept a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy.
You did not answer my prior question -- what successful major shows take place in jurisdictions with sales tax on coins, and why did you fight so hard for your Maryland exemption if it's no biggie?
I happen to think it's everything for retail. Is there any chance you can get one by February? If not, was this one-off really necessary, in a jurisdiction that will tax retail activity at your show?
@coinkat said:
Dealers and collectors basically need to be careful what they wish for. The Baltimore Show in Winter and Fall have been well attended. Most dealers seem to do well. Summer seems to be not as popular… not sure if it is that Baltimore heat and humidity and getting motivated to deal with it. Instead of changing Baltimore, how about reducing the shows in Baltimore to two shows with the third rotating between DC and Philadelphia? This would keep the I-95 corridor in play. And perhaps the timing could be adjusted somewhat to avoid the worst of the heat- possibly Early February followed by the third week in May and either the third week in October or first or second week of November?
I think there is risk in leaving Baltimore completely, but it might be worth a shot to add DC and Philly into the rotation.
Philly is great. There was never an issue with Philly, other than what is now confronting Whitman with Baltimore. It is a huge convention town, and Whitman is a tiny convention.
So it's hard to make the numbers work for Whitman. And then, the unions are HUGE PITA to deal with in Philly. They add costs that the dealers hate, hate, hate. If Whitman can work these things out, Philly would be a gazillion times more successful for everyone than Baltimore ever was.
As for DC, I'm waiting to see how people react to a 5.75% sales tax on all transactions. Is it going to be cash only, with the taxing authorities looking the other way? Because I'm pretty sure retail is going to otherwise balk at the surcharge.
Which will kill the show, unless dealers are willing to make the trip, a month after FUN, just to do a day of dealer to dealer transactions before going home. Which will still kill the show aside from the dealer day. Really not much of a show then, no?
I love your optimism! We have gotten a lot of great initial feedback from dealers. We're all looking for new places to visit and there are a TON of potential collectors in DC. Everyone in the world comes to DC and the city deserves a show. Plus, Stacks will be there with an awesome auction for viewing.
Sorry for the "optimism," and I do greatly appreciate your willingness to engage. But people who balk at paying an admission fee for a show will absolutely not accept a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy.
You did not answer my prior question -- what successful major shows take place in jurisdictions with sales tax on coins, and why did you fight so hard for your Maryland exemption if it's no biggie?
I happen to think it's everything for retail. Is there any chance you can get one by February? If not, was this one-off really necessary, in a jurisdiction that will tax retail activity at your show?
While not ideal, it may be possible to have purchases shipped to you rather than taking possession at the show. This may avoid DC sales tax in a legal manner. But only makes sense if you live in a state that doesn’t tax coins, otherwise you owe tax in your own state and if the dealer has a nexus, is responsible for withholding.> @jmlanzaf said:
@Project Numismatics said:
Nothing beats flying into Reagan and hopping right on the metro.
not with a roller full of coins!
there are some michelin starred restaurants in the area. not sure convention dealers will have the time to hit
If the metro safety bothers you, you should probably avoid all public transit in the US.
Per Fox5 DC:
Crime on the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) system is at its lowest level in 25 years, according to recent transit data. The serious crime rate has fallen to roughly 2 to 3 incidents per million trips, representing a major drop in both bus and rail incidents.
I’m sure @jmlanzaf can crunch the numbers but rough math seems to indicate you are more likely to be involved in a serious car accident driving into town from the airport than a victim of a serious crime on the metro.
Car accidents are usually measured per million miles traveled (1.35 pretty million miles). Quick research shows the average distance of a car trip is 10 miles. That means 1.35 accidents per 100,000 car trips or 13.5 per million. So, there is a 5x higher rate of car accidents, but many of those are minor.
The incidence of fatalities is 4 per BILLION miles traveled. So the incidence of a fatal car accident is roughly 50x LOWER than being in a serious crime incident on the Metro.
All data is from the National Transportation Safety Board. I could not find data for "serious" accidents, but it would be somewhere between those numbers.
I'm not sure how any of that helps. Lol
I think your comparison breaks down because you’re comparing different outcomes. You compare fatal automobile crashes to all serious Metro crimes, most of which are not fatal. That’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. If you’re going to compare fatalities, compare traffic fatalities to Metro homicides. If you’re going to compare injuries, compare injury crashes to violent crimes causing injury.
The other issue is exposure. A Whitman attendee isn’t exposed to the average risk across the entire Metro system any more than a driver going from Arlington to the convention center is exposed to the average risk across every road in America. Systemwide averages don’t estimate the risk of that specific trip.
So I don’t think the data support the conclusion that “driving is 50× safer.”
@coinkat said:
Dealers and collectors basically need to be careful what they wish for. The Baltimore Show in Winter and Fall have been well attended. Most dealers seem to do well. Summer seems to be not as popular… not sure if it is that Baltimore heat and humidity and getting motivated to deal with it. Instead of changing Baltimore, how about reducing the shows in Baltimore to two shows with the third rotating between DC and Philadelphia? This would keep the I-95 corridor in play. And perhaps the timing could be adjusted somewhat to avoid the worst of the heat- possibly Early February followed by the third week in May and either the third week in October or first or second week of November?
I think there is risk in leaving Baltimore completely, but it might be worth a shot to add DC and Philly into the rotation.
Philly is great. There was never an issue with Philly, other than what is now confronting Whitman with Baltimore. It is a huge convention town, and Whitman is a tiny convention.
The only issue I remember in Philly (apart from the Union labor issue) was a big outbreak of credit card RFID skimming at one of the last ANA conventions that was held there (2018 or 2012). Many folks reported getting charged for purchases that they did not make. I bet if you did a search in this forum, it would pop up.
Obviously, this is not inherent to the venue so shouldn't preclude Philly in the future. I personally love the Philly location.
the guy swim instructor for my kid wanted to start classes at rec facilities in dc. he talked to one dc councilman and was asked "what do i get out of it?"
i don't know. perhaps if you don't ask for a coin carve out but a convention and convention vendor sales tax break you might get a better reception
@coinkat said:
Dealers and collectors basically need to be careful what they wish for. The Baltimore Show in Winter and Fall have been well attended. Most dealers seem to do well. Summer seems to be not as popular… not sure if it is that Baltimore heat and humidity and getting motivated to deal with it. Instead of changing Baltimore, how about reducing the shows in Baltimore to two shows with the third rotating between DC and Philadelphia? This would keep the I-95 corridor in play. And perhaps the timing could be adjusted somewhat to avoid the worst of the heat- possibly Early February followed by the third week in May and either the third week in October or first or second week of November?
I think there is risk in leaving Baltimore completely, but it might be worth a shot to add DC and Philly into the rotation.
Philly is great. There was never an issue with Philly, other than what is now confronting Whitman with Baltimore. It is a huge convention town, and Whitman is a tiny convention.
So it's hard to make the numbers work for Whitman. And then, the unions are HUGE PITA to deal with in Philly. They add costs that the dealers hate, hate, hate. If Whitman can work these things out, Philly would be a gazillion times more successful for everyone than Baltimore ever was.
As for DC, I'm waiting to see how people react to a 5.75% sales tax on all transactions. Is it going to be cash only, with the taxing authorities looking the other way? Because I'm pretty sure retail is going to otherwise balk at the surcharge.
Which will kill the show, unless dealers are willing to make the trip, a month after FUN, just to do a day of dealer to dealer transactions before going home. Which will still kill the show aside from the dealer day. Really not much of a show then, no?
I love your optimism! We have gotten a lot of great initial feedback from dealers. We're all looking for new places to visit and there are a TON of potential collectors in DC. Everyone in the world comes to DC and the city deserves a show. Plus, Stacks will be there with an awesome auction for viewing.
Sorry for the "optimism," and I do greatly appreciate your willingness to engage. But people who balk at paying an admission fee for a show will absolutely not accept a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy.
You did not answer my prior question -- what successful major shows take place in jurisdictions with sales tax on coins, and why did you fight so hard for your Maryland exemption if it's no biggie?
I happen to think it's everything for retail. Is there any chance you can get one by February? If not, was this one-off really necessary, in a jurisdiction that will tax retail activity at your show?
While not ideal, it may be possible to have purchases shipped to you rather than taking possession at the show. This may avoid DC sales tax in a legal manner. But only makes sense if you live in a state that doesn’t tax coins, otherwise you owe tax in your own state and if the dealer has a nexus, is responsible for withholding.> @jmlanzaf said:
@Project Numismatics said:
Nothing beats flying into Reagan and hopping right on the metro.
not with a roller full of coins!
there are some michelin starred restaurants in the area. not sure convention dealers will have the time to hit
If the metro safety bothers you, you should probably avoid all public transit in the US.
Per Fox5 DC:
Crime on the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) system is at its lowest level in 25 years, according to recent transit data. The serious crime rate has fallen to roughly 2 to 3 incidents per million trips, representing a major drop in both bus and rail incidents.
I’m sure @jmlanzaf can crunch the numbers but rough math seems to indicate you are more likely to be involved in a serious car accident driving into town from the airport than a victim of a serious crime on the metro.
Car accidents are usually measured per million miles traveled (1.35 pretty million miles). Quick research shows the average distance of a car trip is 10 miles. That means 1.35 accidents per 100,000 car trips or 13.5 per million. So, there is a 5x higher rate of car accidents, but many of those are minor.
The incidence of fatalities is 4 per BILLION miles traveled. So the incidence of a fatal car accident is roughly 50x LOWER than being in a serious crime incident on the Metro.
All data is from the National Transportation Safety Board. I could not find data for "serious" accidents, but it would be somewhere between those numbers.
I'm not sure how any of that helps. Lol
I think your comparison breaks down because you’re comparing different outcomes. You compare fatal automobile crashes to all serious Metro crimes, most of which are not fatal. That’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. If you’re going to compare fatalities, compare traffic fatalities to Metro homicides. If you’re going to compare injuries, compare injury crashes to violent crimes causing injury.
The other issue is exposure. A Whitman attendee isn’t exposed to the average risk across the entire Metro system any more than a driver going from Arlington to the convention center is exposed to the average risk across every road in America. Systemwide averages don’t estimate the risk of that specific trip.
So I don’t think the data support the conclusion that “driving is 50× safer.”
I never said that. I very carefully said that fatal accidents are 50x less likely than a serious crime. That is inarguably true, based on the data.
Those are the only two comparisons that can be made based on available data. It was always going to be an apples to oranges comparison because comparing a "serious crime" to a car accident is inherently an apples to oranges comparison. There is little point to looking at the odds of "serious crimes", which includes rapes, murders, assaults as well as robberies, to the rate of car accidents. But they asked for a comparison so I gave you the range: you can look at total accidents to serious crime or fatal accidents to serious crime. I don't think either comparison is relevant or has any meaning. But the comparison was requested.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@logger7 said:
Or Alexandria, VA where accomodations are better. Did the Pittsburgh ANA get a sales tax exemption? The rate there is 7%.
Love Alexandria!! The problem is that there is are no convention center space on the VA side of the Potomac anywhere. Even Dulles and Arlington lack convention centers at this time. Rather shocking considering all the excess office space around.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I understand the dilemma and need for switching to DC for the one event, but like Baltimore a bit better. PLEASE not Philly for many reasons; crime there is much scarier than the other two.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@coinkat said:
Dealers and collectors basically need to be careful what they wish for. The Baltimore Show in Winter and Fall have been well attended. Most dealers seem to do well. Summer seems to be not as popular… not sure if it is that Baltimore heat and humidity and getting motivated to deal with it. Instead of changing Baltimore, how about reducing the shows in Baltimore to two shows with the third rotating between DC and Philadelphia? This would keep the I-95 corridor in play. And perhaps the timing could be adjusted somewhat to avoid the worst of the heat- possibly Early February followed by the third week in May and either the third week in October or first or second week of November?
I think there is risk in leaving Baltimore completely, but it might be worth a shot to add DC and Philly into the rotation.
Philly is great. There was never an issue with Philly, other than what is now confronting Whitman with Baltimore. It is a huge convention town, and Whitman is a tiny convention.
So it's hard to make the numbers work for Whitman. And then, the unions are HUGE PITA to deal with in Philly. They add costs that the dealers hate, hate, hate. If Whitman can work these things out, Philly would be a gazillion times more successful for everyone than Baltimore ever was.
As for DC, I'm waiting to see how people react to a 5.75% sales tax on all transactions. Is it going to be cash only, with the taxing authorities looking the other way? Because I'm pretty sure retail is going to otherwise balk at the surcharge.
Which will kill the show, unless dealers are willing to make the trip, a month after FUN, just to do a day of dealer to dealer transactions before going home. Which will still kill the show aside from the dealer day. Really not much of a show then, no?
I love your optimism! We have gotten a lot of great initial feedback from dealers. We're all looking for new places to visit and there are a TON of potential collectors in DC. Everyone in the world comes to DC and the city deserves a show. Plus, Stacks will be there with an awesome auction for viewing.
Sorry for the "optimism," and I do greatly appreciate your willingness to engage. But people who balk at paying an admission fee for a show will absolutely not accept a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy.
You did not answer my prior question -- what successful major shows take place in jurisdictions with sales tax on coins, and why did you fight so hard for your Maryland exemption if it's no biggie?
I happen to think it's everything for retail. Is there any chance you can get one by February? If not, was this one-off really necessary, in a jurisdiction that will tax retail activity at your show?
While not ideal, it may be possible to have purchases shipped to you rather than taking possession at the show. This may avoid DC sales tax in a legal manner. But only makes sense if you live in a state that doesn’t tax coins, otherwise you owe tax in your own state and if the dealer has a nexus, is responsible for withholding.> @jmlanzaf said:
@Project Numismatics said:
Nothing beats flying into Reagan and hopping right on the metro.
not with a roller full of coins!
there are some michelin starred restaurants in the area. not sure convention dealers will have the time to hit
If the metro safety bothers you, you should probably avoid all public transit in the US.
Per Fox5 DC:
Crime on the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) system is at its lowest level in 25 years, according to recent transit data. The serious crime rate has fallen to roughly 2 to 3 incidents per million trips, representing a major drop in both bus and rail incidents.
I’m sure @jmlanzaf can crunch the numbers but rough math seems to indicate you are more likely to be involved in a serious car accident driving into town from the airport than a victim of a serious crime on the metro.
Car accidents are usually measured per million miles traveled (1.35 pretty million miles). Quick research shows the average distance of a car trip is 10 miles. That means 1.35 accidents per 100,000 car trips or 13.5 per million. So, there is a 5x higher rate of car accidents, but many of those are minor.
The incidence of fatalities is 4 per BILLION miles traveled. So the incidence of a fatal car accident is roughly 50x LOWER than being in a serious crime incident on the Metro.
All data is from the National Transportation Safety Board. I could not find data for "serious" accidents, but it would be somewhere between those numbers.
I'm not sure how any of that helps. Lol
I think your comparison breaks down because you’re comparing different outcomes. You compare fatal automobile crashes to all serious Metro crimes, most of which are not fatal. That’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. If you’re going to compare fatalities, compare traffic fatalities to Metro homicides. If you’re going to compare injuries, compare injury crashes to violent crimes causing injury.
The other issue is exposure. A Whitman attendee isn’t exposed to the average risk across the entire Metro system any more than a driver going from Arlington to the convention center is exposed to the average risk across every road in America. Systemwide averages don’t estimate the risk of that specific trip.
So I don’t think the data support the conclusion that “driving is 50× safer.”
I never said that. I very carefully said that fatal accidents are 50x less likely than a serious crime. That is inarguably true, based on the data.
Those are the only two comparisons that can be made based on available data. It was always going to be an apples to oranges comparison because comparing a "serious crime" to a car accident is inherently an apples to oranges comparison. There is little point to looking at the odds of "serious crimes", which includes rapes, murders, assaults as well as robberies, to the rate of car accidents. But they asked for a comparison so I gave you the range: you can look at total accidents to serious crime or fatal accidents to serious crime. I don't think either comparison is relevant or has any meaning. But the comparison was requested.
You’re comparing the rarest possible adverse outcome for driving to a much broader category of adverse outcomes on Metro. That’s why the ‘50×’ figure sounds dramatic—it isn’t comparing equivalent risks.
@coinkat said:
Dealers and collectors basically need to be careful what they wish for. The Baltimore Show in Winter and Fall have been well attended. Most dealers seem to do well. Summer seems to be not as popular… not sure if it is that Baltimore heat and humidity and getting motivated to deal with it. Instead of changing Baltimore, how about reducing the shows in Baltimore to two shows with the third rotating between DC and Philadelphia? This would keep the I-95 corridor in play. And perhaps the timing could be adjusted somewhat to avoid the worst of the heat- possibly Early February followed by the third week in May and either the third week in October or first or second week of November?
I think there is risk in leaving Baltimore completely, but it might be worth a shot to add DC and Philly into the rotation.
Philly is great. There was never an issue with Philly, other than what is now confronting Whitman with Baltimore. It is a huge convention town, and Whitman is a tiny convention.
So it's hard to make the numbers work for Whitman. And then, the unions are HUGE PITA to deal with in Philly. They add costs that the dealers hate, hate, hate. If Whitman can work these things out, Philly would be a gazillion times more successful for everyone than Baltimore ever was.
As for DC, I'm waiting to see how people react to a 5.75% sales tax on all transactions. Is it going to be cash only, with the taxing authorities looking the other way? Because I'm pretty sure retail is going to otherwise balk at the surcharge.
Which will kill the show, unless dealers are willing to make the trip, a month after FUN, just to do a day of dealer to dealer transactions before going home. Which will still kill the show aside from the dealer day. Really not much of a show then, no?
I love your optimism! We have gotten a lot of great initial feedback from dealers. We're all looking for new places to visit and there are a TON of potential collectors in DC. Everyone in the world comes to DC and the city deserves a show. Plus, Stacks will be there with an awesome auction for viewing.
Sorry for the "optimism," and I do greatly appreciate your willingness to engage. But people who balk at paying an admission fee for a show will absolutely not accept a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy.
You did not answer my prior question -- what successful major shows take place in jurisdictions with sales tax on coins, and why did you fight so hard for your Maryland exemption if it's no biggie?
I happen to think it's everything for retail. Is there any chance you can get one by February? If not, was this one-off really necessary, in a jurisdiction that will tax retail activity at your show?
While not ideal, it may be possible to have purchases shipped to you rather than taking possession at the show. This may avoid DC sales tax in a legal manner. But only makes sense if you live in a state that doesn’t tax coins, otherwise you owe tax in your own state and if the dealer has a nexus, is responsible for withholding.> @jmlanzaf said:
@Project Numismatics said:
Nothing beats flying into Reagan and hopping right on the metro.
not with a roller full of coins!
there are some michelin starred restaurants in the area. not sure convention dealers will have the time to hit
If the metro safety bothers you, you should probably avoid all public transit in the US.
Per Fox5 DC:
Crime on the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) system is at its lowest level in 25 years, according to recent transit data. The serious crime rate has fallen to roughly 2 to 3 incidents per million trips, representing a major drop in both bus and rail incidents.
I’m sure @jmlanzaf can crunch the numbers but rough math seems to indicate you are more likely to be involved in a serious car accident driving into town from the airport than a victim of a serious crime on the metro.
Car accidents are usually measured per million miles traveled (1.35 pretty million miles). Quick research shows the average distance of a car trip is 10 miles. That means 1.35 accidents per 100,000 car trips or 13.5 per million. So, there is a 5x higher rate of car accidents, but many of those are minor.
The incidence of fatalities is 4 per BILLION miles traveled. So the incidence of a fatal car accident is roughly 50x LOWER than being in a serious crime incident on the Metro.
All data is from the National Transportation Safety Board. I could not find data for "serious" accidents, but it would be somewhere between those numbers.
I'm not sure how any of that helps. Lol
I think your comparison breaks down because you’re comparing different outcomes. You compare fatal automobile crashes to all serious Metro crimes, most of which are not fatal. That’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. If you’re going to compare fatalities, compare traffic fatalities to Metro homicides. If you’re going to compare injuries, compare injury crashes to violent crimes causing injury.
The other issue is exposure. A Whitman attendee isn’t exposed to the average risk across the entire Metro system any more than a driver going from Arlington to the convention center is exposed to the average risk across every road in America. Systemwide averages don’t estimate the risk of that specific trip.
So I don’t think the data support the conclusion that “driving is 50× safer.”
I never said that. I very carefully said that fatal accidents are 50x less likely than a serious crime. That is inarguably true, based on the data.
Those are the only two comparisons that can be made based on available data. It was always going to be an apples to oranges comparison because comparing a "serious crime" to a car accident is inherently an apples to oranges comparison. There is little point to looking at the odds of "serious crimes", which includes rapes, murders, assaults as well as robberies, to the rate of car accidents. But they asked for a comparison so I gave you the range: you can look at total accidents to serious crime or fatal accidents to serious crime. I don't think either comparison is relevant or has any meaning. But the comparison was requested.
You’re comparing the rarest possible adverse outcome for driving to a much broader category of adverse outcomes on Metro. That’s why the ‘50×’ figure sounds dramatic—it isn’t comparing equivalent risks.
You're the one who asked for the apples-to-oranges comparison???? You quoted the odds of being raped, assaulted, robbed or murdered and asked for a comparison to a "serious" car accident. The rate of serious car accidents is somewhere between the total number of accidents (which I gave) and the number of fatal accidents (which I gave).
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@JohnF --Have you ever considered moving the summer Baltimore show to D.C. while keeping the fall and winter shows in Baltimore? The Baltimore show is considerably slower in the summer, while lots of tourists and visitors come to D.C. in the summer. I could imagine that would be an attractive option to combine a coin show with a family vacation. There would be lots for spouses and kids to do while you are at the coin show.
Having consulted for several companies and personally produced hundreds of coin shows over the past 25 years, I've learned that most people never see what it really takes to put on a successful event. There are dozens of moving parts—some within an organizer's control and many that simply are not.
Selecting a venue is about much more than finding a large building. You have to balance accessibility, hotel availability and pricing, loading and unloading logistics, parking, convention costs, security, nearby restaurants, competing events, local support, transportation, and the overall experience for dealers and attendees. Then there are the factors no one can control—weather, crime, travel disruptions, and the economy.
In my opinion, coin shows are different from major trade expos. They are highly specialized events, and I don't believe they necessarily belong in large downtown convention centers simply because of their name or prestige. In many cases, a well-designed regional expo center provides a better experience and better value for everyone involved.
I sincerely wish Whitman nothing but continued success. Organizing an event of this magnitude is an enormous undertaking, and I have tremendous respect for the work that goes into it. That said, I don't believe Washington, D.C., is the right long-term home for the show.
John, I'll give you one freebie.
Take a serious look at the Greater Philadelphia Expo Center in Oaks, just outside King of Prussia.
From an event organizer's perspective, it checks a tremendous number of boxes. The facility offers approximately 240,000 square feet of flexible exhibition space, more than 5,000 free parking spaces, easy access from major interstate highways, simple move-in and move-out logistics, and dozens of nearby hotels at a variety of price points.
Just as importantly, King of Prussia is a destination in itself. It boasts one of the premier shopping areas in the United States, outstanding restaurants, excellent hotels, and nearby casinos that give dealers, collectors, and their families plenty to do before and after the show. Those attractions help turn a coin show into a weekend getaway, encouraging longer stays and increasing the overall appeal of the event.
Is it the perfect answer? Maybe not. Every venue has its strengths and weaknesses. But if you're looking for a permanent home that offers outstanding logistics, convenience, affordability, and a great attendee experience, I believe King of Prussia deserves to be at the very top of the list.
Just my thoughts—from someone who has spent more than two decades helping organize and produce successful shows.
@MsMorrisine said:
DC is not safer and the immediate vicinity of the convention center doesn't have so great of hotels
dc hotels are height limited as no building can be taller than the washington monument, so there's room limitations.
there's no way I'd get on the metro with a roller of coins
Baltimore: 566,632 residents Washington: 702,250 residents
Washington is 42% safer than Baltimore based on violent crime rate https://www.opencrime.us/tools/compare
@ScarsdaleCoin said:
Those attractions help turn a coin show into a weekend getaway, encouraging longer stays and increasing the overall appeal of the event.
if only coin show were a real event on the weekend
@MsMorrisine said:
DC is not safer and the immediate vicinity of the convention center doesn't have so great of hotels
dc hotels are height limited as no building can be taller than the washington monument, so there's room limitations.
there's no way I'd get on the metro with a roller of coins
Baltimore: 566,632 residents Washington: 702,250 residents
Washington is 42% safer than Baltimore based on violent crime rate https://www.opencrime.us/tools/compare
My son lives walking distance to the DC Convention Center and he feels very safe. All big cities present challenges but DC has really improved in the last decade.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Take a serious look at the Greater Philadelphia Expo Center in Oaks, just outside King of Prussia.
From an event organizer's perspective, it checks a tremendous number of boxes. The facility offers approximately 240,000 square feet of flexible exhibition space, more than 5,000 free parking spaces, easy access from major interstate highways, simple move-in and move-out logistics, and dozens of nearby hotels at a variety of price points.
THANK YOU! Great suggestion. We have also been looking at King of Prussia. Definitely on the list of places we are considering. Baltimore is still the primary location but we are going to experiment a little in the next couple years while we work out best locations.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@DDR said: @JohnF --Have you ever considered moving the summer Baltimore show to D.C. while keeping the fall and winter shows in Baltimore? The Baltimore show is considerably slower in the summer, while lots of tourists and visitors come to D.C. in the summer. I could imagine that would be an attractive option to combine a coin show with a family vacation. There would be lots for spouses and kids to do while you are at the coin show.
absolutely possible. The challenge for March 2027 was ANA already picked Va Beach; Long Beach follows; and we didn't want to go third. Baltimore had nothing for us in February, where a show is needed, so we looked at many options and came up with DC as first choice. As I've stressed, it is currently a one-off event and we look forward to feedback from participants after the show.
In the meantime, I think this is an excellent opportunity for everyone to visit our nation's capitol and see what it has to offer (so much!).
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@DDR said: @JohnF --Have you ever considered moving the summer Baltimore show to D.C. while keeping the fall and winter shows in Baltimore? The Baltimore show is considerably slower in the summer, while lots of tourists and visitors come to D.C. in the summer. I could imagine that would be an attractive option to combine a coin show with a family vacation. There would be lots for spouses and kids to do while you are at the coin show.
absolutely possible. The challenge for March 2027 was ANA already picked Va Beach; Long Beach follows; and we didn't want to go third. Baltimore had nothing for us in February, where a show is needed, so we looked at many options and came up with DC as first choice. As I've stressed, it is currently a one-off event and we look forward to feedback from participants after the show.
In the meantime, I think this is an excellent opportunity for everyone to visit our nation's capitol and see what it has to offer (so much!).
With all due respect, you are still ignoring the elephant in the room. 5.75%.
Is Whitman going to cover that? Is there an expectation that the taxing authorities will look the other way while dealers fail to collect it? Is everyone going to be shipping everything out of town? Who will be paying for that?
Or do you honestly expect every single person walking through the door without a resale certificate to pay a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy, when they don't have to do so at any other major, or even mid tier, show?
If so, I'm giving you this feedback now. It's a non-starter.
If nothing else, November should be gangbusters for you. February, not so much.
Because, yes, any other consideration aside, you are not going to find it viable to run coin shows in jurisdictions that tax retail transactions on your bourse. So it will indeed be a one-off.
Why didn't you just cancel the show and build additional excitement for November and June, while holding out for jurisdictions hospitable to the hobby? Because dealers are not going to be happy about having to deal with this, which should suppress demand for your tables. And any member of the public who is unaware will be similarly unhappy when the get the bill. The same people who generally do not want to pay for admission. Lose-lose, even if the Reflecting Pool is back in business by then.
@DDR said: @JohnF --Have you ever considered moving the summer Baltimore show to D.C. while keeping the fall and winter shows in Baltimore? The Baltimore show is considerably slower in the summer, while lots of tourists and visitors come to D.C. in the summer. I could imagine that would be an attractive option to combine a coin show with a family vacation. There would be lots for spouses and kids to do while you are at the coin show.
absolutely possible. The challenge for March 2027 was ANA already picked Va Beach; Long Beach follows; and we didn't want to go third. Baltimore had nothing for us in February, where a show is needed, so we looked at many options and came up with DC as first choice. As I've stressed, it is currently a one-off event and we look forward to feedback from participants after the show.
In the meantime, I think this is an excellent opportunity for everyone to visit our nation's capitol and see what it has to offer (so much!).
With all due respect, you are still ignoring the elephant in the room. 5.75%.
Is Whitman going to cover that? Is there an expectation that the taxing authorities will look the other way while dealers fail to collect it? Is everyone going to be shipping everything out of town? Who will be paying for that?
We cannot manage the tax issue. We realize it's a hardship and acknowledge that. However, a majority of business (by dollar volume) done at shows is wholesale (tax exempt). We realize the issue but we also feel exposing dealers to a new venue with an amazing demographic is worth the risk. If we can't make it work, we will never try it again.
Sorry you don't agree but we are betting it will work.
John
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@DDR said: @JohnF --Have you ever considered moving the summer Baltimore show to D.C. while keeping the fall and winter shows in Baltimore? The Baltimore show is considerably slower in the summer, while lots of tourists and visitors come to D.C. in the summer. I could imagine that would be an attractive option to combine a coin show with a family vacation. There would be lots for spouses and kids to do while you are at the coin show.
absolutely possible. The challenge for March 2027 was ANA already picked Va Beach; Long Beach follows; and we didn't want to go third. Baltimore had nothing for us in February, where a show is needed, so we looked at many options and came up with DC as first choice. As I've stressed, it is currently a one-off event and we look forward to feedback from participants after the show.
In the meantime, I think this is an excellent opportunity for everyone to visit our nation's capitol and see what it has to offer (so much!).
With all due respect, you are still ignoring the elephant in the room. 5.75%.
Is Whitman going to cover that? Is there an expectation that the taxing authorities will look the other way while dealers fail to collect it? Is everyone going to be shipping everything out of town? Who will be paying for that?
Or do you honestly expect every single person walking through the door without a resale certificate to pay a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy, when they don't have to do so at any other major, or even mid tier, show?
If so, I'm giving you this feedback now. It's a non-starter.
If nothing else, November should be gangbusters for you. February, not so much.
Because, yes, any other consideration aside, you are not going to find it viable to run coin shows in jurisdictions that tax retail transactions on your bourse. So it will indeed be a one-off.
Why didn't you just cancel the show and build additional excitement for November and June, while holding out for jurisdictions hospitable to the hobby? Because dealers are not going to be happy about having to deal with this, which should suppress demand for your tables. And any member of the public who is unaware will be similarly unhappy when the get the bill. The same people who generally do not want to pay for admission. Lose-lose, even if the Reflecting Pool is back in business by then.
Does Long Beach have an exemption?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@DDR said: @JohnF --Have you ever considered moving the summer Baltimore show to D.C. while keeping the fall and winter shows in Baltimore? The Baltimore show is considerably slower in the summer, while lots of tourists and visitors come to D.C. in the summer. I could imagine that would be an attractive option to combine a coin show with a family vacation. There would be lots for spouses and kids to do while you are at the coin show.
absolutely possible. The challenge for March 2027 was ANA already picked Va Beach; Long Beach follows; and we didn't want to go third. Baltimore had nothing for us in February, where a show is needed, so we looked at many options and came up with DC as first choice. As I've stressed, it is currently a one-off event and we look forward to feedback from participants after the show.
In the meantime, I think this is an excellent opportunity for everyone to visit our nation's capitol and see what it has to offer (so much!).
With all due respect, you are still ignoring the elephant in the room. 5.75%.
Is Whitman going to cover that? Is there an expectation that the taxing authorities will look the other way while dealers fail to collect it? Is everyone going to be shipping everything out of town? Who will be paying for that?
Or do you honestly expect every single person walking through the door without a resale certificate to pay a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy, when they don't have to do so at any other major, or even mid tier, show?
If so, I'm giving you this feedback now. It's a non-starter.
If nothing else, November should be gangbusters for you. February, not so much.
Because, yes, any other consideration aside, you are not going to find it viable to run coin shows in jurisdictions that tax retail transactions on your bourse. So it will indeed be a one-off.
Why didn't you just cancel the show and build additional excitement for November and June, while holding out for jurisdictions hospitable to the hobby? Because dealers are not going to be happy about having to deal with this, which should suppress demand for your tables. And any member of the public who is unaware will be similarly unhappy when the get the bill. The same people who generally do not want to pay for admission. Lose-lose, even if the Reflecting Pool is back in business by then.
Does Long Beach have an exemption?
I don't know if they do or not but I've never paid a penny in sales tax there for many transactions that would apply. However, I never think of it from the collector's side; we just figured out a price and that's how much it was.
@DDR said: @JohnF --Have you ever considered moving the summer Baltimore show to D.C. while keeping the fall and winter shows in Baltimore? The Baltimore show is considerably slower in the summer, while lots of tourists and visitors come to D.C. in the summer. I could imagine that would be an attractive option to combine a coin show with a family vacation. There would be lots for spouses and kids to do while you are at the coin show.
absolutely possible. The challenge for March 2027 was ANA already picked Va Beach; Long Beach follows; and we didn't want to go third. Baltimore had nothing for us in February, where a show is needed, so we looked at many options and came up with DC as first choice. As I've stressed, it is currently a one-off event and we look forward to feedback from participants after the show.
In the meantime, I think this is an excellent opportunity for everyone to visit our nation's capitol and see what it has to offer (so much!).
With all due respect, you are still ignoring the elephant in the room. 5.75%.
Is Whitman going to cover that? Is there an expectation that the taxing authorities will look the other way while dealers fail to collect it? Is everyone going to be shipping everything out of town? Who will be paying for that?
We cannot manage the tax issue. We realize it's a hardship and acknowledge that. However, a majority of business (by dollar volume) done at shows is wholesale (tax exempt). We realize the issue but we also feel exposing dealers to a new venue with an amazing demographic is worth the risk. If we can't make it work, we will never try it again.
Sorry you don't agree but we are betting it will work.
John
Thanks for the honest response. I honestly wish you all the luck in the world. But maybe touch base with the folks behind IMEX about the wisdom of building a show catering almost exclusively to dealers. Because, without retail, there is no business. Just wholesalers pushing inventory back and forth to each other.
@jmlanzaf said:
Does Long Beach have an exemption?
Don't know first hand, since I've never been. But Google says there is an exemption for everyone over $2K.
In any event, it's not a great example, given that it's a failed show that Stack's had to rescue. Probably more for hobby goodwill than as a business decision once our host's new masters started focusing more on profitability.
@logger7 said:
Or Alexandria, VA where accomodations are better. Did the Pittsburgh ANA get a sales tax exemption? The rate there is 7%.
Love Alexandria!! The problem is that there is are no convention center space on the VA side of the Potomac anywhere. Even Dulles and Arlington lack convention centers at this time. Rather shocking considering all the excess office space around.
No large convention center but plenty of larger events are held at the hotels, etc..
@jmlanzaf said:
Does Long Beach have an exemption?
Don't know first hand, since I've never been. But Google says there is an exemption for everyone over $2K.
In any event, it's not a great example, given that it's a failed show that Stack's had to rescue. Probably more for hobby goodwill than as a business decision once our host's new masters started focusing more on profitability.
It was a major, successful show for many years. And all shows in NY state have the sales tax issue. It's not ideal, but it's also not a deal breaker.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Sales Tax Increase Delay Amendment Act of 2025: The general sales tax rate on the gross receipts from the sale of or charges for tangible personal property, digital goods and taxable services, will remain 6.0% through Sept. 30, 2026. The general sales tax rate will increase to 7.0% for periods beginning on and after Oct. 1, 2026.
@JohnF said:
We cannot manage the tax issue. We realize it's a hardship and acknowledge that. However, a majority of business (by dollar volume) done at shows is wholesale (tax exempt). We realize the issue but we also feel exposing dealers to a new venue with an amazing demographic is worth the risk. If we can't make it work, we will never try it again.
Sorry you don't agree but we are betting it will work.
John
It is known that the 6% tax rate under $1000 in Maryland existed just for the Whitman Show at the Baltimore Convention Center for some time until July 2026. After that, the exemption was expanded to all of Maryland.
Is it possible to get this specific show at the Washington Convention Center exempt in DC the same way that Maryland did? Maybe NCBA can help you get this done before the show.
BTW: Long Beach CA < $2000 is 10.5%
The issue with DC is there is no exemption at all, so there is no incentive to spend over a threshold. Every sale will need to be taxed and this may discourage buyers.
@jmlanzaf said:
Does Long Beach have an exemption?
Don't know first hand, since I've never been. But Google says there is an exemption for everyone over $2K.
In any event, it's not a great example, given that it's a failed show that Stack's had to rescue. Probably more for hobby goodwill than as a business decision once our host's new masters started focusing more on profitability.
It was a major, successful show for many years. And all shows in NY state have the sales tax issue. It's not ideal, but it's also not a deal breaker.
Before my time. In my time, it has always been a dying show.
I also can't speak to what the national sales tax landscape was when it was thriving. But nowadays, as I said before, with no one coming in to debate me, there seem to be no national or major regional shows where they don't have a sales tax exemption.
Whitman fought tooth and nail for its special Maryland exemption, and was very proud when they landed it. Now it turns out it was a just a "nice to have" that wouldn't make or break a show.
We'll see. But, with Rosemont, Pittsburgh, Orlando, Baltimore, Shaumburg, etc. not collecting taxes, I'll be shocked if dealers want to deal with the paperwork, and if collectors accept the surcharge, in 2027, when there are so many other options.
I just don't see the necessity for this particular show if Whitman lost its February window for Baltimore. Brand new location, a month after FUN and a month before ANA. With no sales tax exemption.
None at all, when even California, Massachusetts and New York, three of the highest tax states in the country, have threshold exemptions, and many when states have a full exemption. To be honest, DC should not even be on any coin show's radar due to that.
If dealers need it, good for them. Ditto for anyone local who didn't scratch the itch in November, can't wait for June, and is willing to pay an extra 5.75%. I honestly can't see any collector traveling any significant distance to hit DC in February after skipping Orlando in January and Virginia Beach in March.
I didn't see IMEX being successful. I wasn't wrong.
I thought GACC in Tampa would be good, and I was wrong about that. I was also wrong about ANA in OKC sucking when it turned out to be surprisingly good.
So I admittedly don't have a great feel for this. I only know what would work for me. I stopped doing business with Heritage when they started collecting sales tax. I stopped doing business with the Royal Canadian Mint when they started collecting sales tax.
The hobby is expensive enough. I refuse to ever pay premiums when they are avoidable.
I will always avoid any coin show where sales taxes are collected. I would have to rethink if there were no alternatives.
But there are PLENTY of REALLY good alternatives. No offense to Whitman, but it is no FUN, and it is no WFOM. I can't imagine anyone actually needs it if it's going to involve the hassles of collecting and paying sales taxes.
If dealers are truly providing positive feedback now, I hope that continues if DC asks @JohnF for a dealer list and subjects them to sales tax audits after the show. Because I can't imagine any dealer being excited about setting up anywhere other than their home state where they have to worry about dealing with taxing authorities.
@MasonG said:
California has a $2000+ exemption. Ok.
Lots of collectors never spend anywhere near that amount on a purchase.
NY doesn't even have that. Yet the NY International is a premiere show and there are numerous local and regional shows, none of which have exemptions. And the Baltimore didn't have an exemption for a long time. It's not the show killer that someone is suggesting.
There's also a lot of sales tax fraud that goes on. I actually wish states would crack down on that. If there's going to be a sales tax, make sure it's enforced.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@MasonG said:
California has a $2000+ exemption. Ok.
Lots of collectors never spend anywhere near that amount on a purchase.
NY doesn't even have that. Yet the NY International is a premiere show and there are numerous local and regional shows, none of which have exemptions. And the Baltimore didn't have an exemption for a long time. It's not the show killer that someone is suggesting.
There's also a lot of sales tax fraud that goes on. I actually wish states would crack down on that. If there's going to be a sales tax, make sure it's enforced.
NY International is an international show. I'll bet no one is actually paying tax there.
I thought NY had a threshold exemption, but it turns out it's just for bullion. Maryland always had a threshold exemption, even before Whitman got the total exemption for the show.
It's a big enough deal that the ANA won't go anywhere where they don't get an exemption. So there's that.
And the best show in the country, FUN, has an exemption. So, yeah, I think it's a pretty big deal.
Lot of reasons DC might not fly. But, if it doesn't, you won't be able to tell me that sales taxes didn't play a part.
Comments
I love your optimism! We have gotten a lot of great initial feedback from dealers. We're all looking for new places to visit and there are a TON of potential collectors in DC. Everyone in the world comes to DC and the city deserves a show. Plus, Stacks will be there with an awesome auction for viewing.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I can confirm to you that we had to adjust our dates based on ANA and Stack's events. I also think it's a win-win to have a February show. Long Beach was always in February back in the day. We need a good show a month after FUN. (And a week after Berlin, FWIW.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Sorry for the "optimism," and I do greatly appreciate your willingness to engage. But people who balk at paying an admission fee for a show will absolutely not accept a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy.
You did not answer my prior question -- what successful major shows take place in jurisdictions with sales tax on coins, and why did you fight so hard for your Maryland exemption if it's no biggie?
I happen to think it's everything for retail. Is there any chance you can get one by February? If not, was this one-off really necessary, in a jurisdiction that will tax retail activity at your show?
While not ideal, it may be possible to have purchases shipped to you rather than taking possession at the show. This may avoid DC sales tax in a legal manner. But only makes sense if you live in a state that doesn’t tax coins, otherwise you owe tax in your own state and if the dealer has a nexus, is responsible for withholding.> @jmlanzaf said:
I think your comparison breaks down because you’re comparing different outcomes. You compare fatal automobile crashes to all serious Metro crimes, most of which are not fatal. That’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. If you’re going to compare fatalities, compare traffic fatalities to Metro homicides. If you’re going to compare injuries, compare injury crashes to violent crimes causing injury.
The other issue is exposure. A Whitman attendee isn’t exposed to the average risk across the entire Metro system any more than a driver going from Arlington to the convention center is exposed to the average risk across every road in America. Systemwide averages don’t estimate the risk of that specific trip.
So I don’t think the data support the conclusion that “driving is 50× safer.”
.> @NJCoin said:
The only issue I remember in Philly (apart from the Union labor issue) was a big outbreak of credit card RFID skimming at one of the last ANA conventions that was held there (2018 or 2012). Many folks reported getting charged for purchases that they did not make. I bet if you did a search in this forum, it would pop up.
Obviously, this is not inherent to the venue so shouldn't preclude Philly in the future. I personally love the Philly location.
the guy swim instructor for my kid wanted to start classes at rec facilities in dc. he talked to one dc councilman and was asked "what do i get out of it?"
i don't know. perhaps if you don't ask for a coin carve out but a convention and convention vendor sales tax break you might get a better reception
An exciting development. Looking forward to the DC version of the Baltimore show!
Excited for the new venue, and looking forward to the show! I think it will be a good location, but we'll find out.
Or Alexandria, VA where accomodations are better. Did the Pittsburgh ANA get a sales tax exemption? The rate there is 7%.
I never said that. I very carefully said that fatal accidents are 50x less likely than a serious crime. That is inarguably true, based on the data.
Those are the only two comparisons that can be made based on available data. It was always going to be an apples to oranges comparison because comparing a "serious crime" to a car accident is inherently an apples to oranges comparison. There is little point to looking at the odds of "serious crimes", which includes rapes, murders, assaults as well as robberies, to the rate of car accidents. But they asked for a comparison so I gave you the range: you can look at total accidents to serious crime or fatal accidents to serious crime. I don't think either comparison is relevant or has any meaning. But the comparison was requested.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Love Alexandria!! The problem is that there is are no convention center space on the VA side of the Potomac anywhere. Even Dulles and Arlington lack convention centers at this time. Rather shocking considering all the excess office space around.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
There is no sales tax on coins or bullion anywhere in PA. Not true of banknotes though.
I understand the dilemma and need for switching to DC for the one event, but like Baltimore a bit better. PLEASE not Philly for many reasons; crime there is much scarier than the other two.
Well, just Love coins, period.
You’re comparing the rarest possible adverse outcome for driving to a much broader category of adverse outcomes on Metro. That’s why the ‘50×’ figure sounds dramatic—it isn’t comparing equivalent risks.
You're the one who asked for the apples-to-oranges comparison???? You quoted the odds of being raped, assaulted, robbed or murdered and asked for a comparison to a "serious" car accident. The rate of serious car accidents is somewhere between the total number of accidents (which I gave) and the number of fatal accidents (which I gave).
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
How about thinking about Virginia Beach, Virginia for a show?
ANA Spring Show is in VA Beach in March -
https://www.money.org/events/future-conventions/
@JohnF --Have you ever considered moving the summer Baltimore show to D.C. while keeping the fall and winter shows in Baltimore? The Baltimore show is considerably slower in the summer, while lots of tourists and visitors come to D.C. in the summer. I could imagine that would be an attractive option to combine a coin show with a family vacation. There would be lots for spouses and kids to do while you are at the coin show.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Having consulted for several companies and personally produced hundreds of coin shows over the past 25 years, I've learned that most people never see what it really takes to put on a successful event. There are dozens of moving parts—some within an organizer's control and many that simply are not.
Selecting a venue is about much more than finding a large building. You have to balance accessibility, hotel availability and pricing, loading and unloading logistics, parking, convention costs, security, nearby restaurants, competing events, local support, transportation, and the overall experience for dealers and attendees. Then there are the factors no one can control—weather, crime, travel disruptions, and the economy.
In my opinion, coin shows are different from major trade expos. They are highly specialized events, and I don't believe they necessarily belong in large downtown convention centers simply because of their name or prestige. In many cases, a well-designed regional expo center provides a better experience and better value for everyone involved.
I sincerely wish Whitman nothing but continued success. Organizing an event of this magnitude is an enormous undertaking, and I have tremendous respect for the work that goes into it. That said, I don't believe Washington, D.C., is the right long-term home for the show.
John, I'll give you one freebie.
Take a serious look at the Greater Philadelphia Expo Center in Oaks, just outside King of Prussia.
From an event organizer's perspective, it checks a tremendous number of boxes. The facility offers approximately 240,000 square feet of flexible exhibition space, more than 5,000 free parking spaces, easy access from major interstate highways, simple move-in and move-out logistics, and dozens of nearby hotels at a variety of price points.
Just as importantly, King of Prussia is a destination in itself. It boasts one of the premier shopping areas in the United States, outstanding restaurants, excellent hotels, and nearby casinos that give dealers, collectors, and their families plenty to do before and after the show. Those attractions help turn a coin show into a weekend getaway, encouraging longer stays and increasing the overall appeal of the event.
Is it the perfect answer? Maybe not. Every venue has its strengths and weaknesses. But if you're looking for a permanent home that offers outstanding logistics, convenience, affordability, and a great attendee experience, I believe King of Prussia deserves to be at the very top of the list.
Just my thoughts—from someone who has spent more than two decades helping organize and produce successful shows.
Baltimore: 566,632 residents Washington: 702,250 residents
Washington is 42% safer than Baltimore based on violent crime rate
https://www.opencrime.us/tools/compare
if only coin show were a real event on the weekend
how easy is it to get to philly int'l?
yup. ANA already doing one there. Not ideal for time or year or access by traveling customers, but it will be convenient for us!
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
My son lives walking distance to the DC Convention Center and he feels very safe. All big cities present challenges but DC has really improved in the last decade.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
THANK YOU! Great suggestion. We have also been looking at King of Prussia. Definitely on the list of places we are considering. Baltimore is still the primary location but we are going to experiment a little in the next couple years while we work out best locations.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
absolutely possible. The challenge for March 2027 was ANA already picked Va Beach; Long Beach follows; and we didn't want to go third. Baltimore had nothing for us in February, where a show is needed, so we looked at many options and came up with DC as first choice. As I've stressed, it is currently a one-off event and we look forward to feedback from participants after the show.
In the meantime, I think this is an excellent opportunity for everyone to visit our nation's capitol and see what it has to offer (so much!).
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
How does the spring ANA show compare to their show in August? Smaller - what else?
for those going, definitely ask questions on places to go when the time gets closer!
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With all due respect, you are still ignoring the elephant in the room. 5.75%.
Is Whitman going to cover that? Is there an expectation that the taxing authorities will look the other way while dealers fail to collect it? Is everyone going to be shipping everything out of town? Who will be paying for that?
Or do you honestly expect every single person walking through the door without a resale certificate to pay a 5.75% surcharge on everything they buy, when they don't have to do so at any other major, or even mid tier, show?
If so, I'm giving you this feedback now. It's a non-starter.
If nothing else, November should be gangbusters for you. February, not so much.
Because, yes, any other consideration aside, you are not going to find it viable to run coin shows in jurisdictions that tax retail transactions on your bourse. So it will indeed be a one-off.
Why didn't you just cancel the show and build additional excitement for November and June, while holding out for jurisdictions hospitable to the hobby? Because dealers are not going to be happy about having to deal with this, which should suppress demand for your tables. And any member of the public who is unaware will be similarly unhappy when the get the bill. The same people who generally do not want to pay for admission. Lose-lose, even if the Reflecting Pool is back in business by then.
Spring and Fall shows are large (and strong). The June show is about 2/3 size.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
We cannot manage the tax issue. We realize it's a hardship and acknowledge that. However, a majority of business (by dollar volume) done at shows is wholesale (tax exempt). We realize the issue but we also feel exposing dealers to a new venue with an amazing demographic is worth the risk. If we can't make it work, we will never try it again.
Sorry you don't agree but we are betting it will work.
John
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
p.s. we are getting a TON of positive feedback so far from dealers.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Does Long Beach have an exemption?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I don't know if they do or not but I've never paid a penny in sales tax there for many transactions that would apply. However, I never think of it from the collector's side; we just figured out a price and that's how much it was.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Last time I attended, yes- sometimes. Your purchase total had to exceed $1500 or $2000 or something. Sales below the threshold were taxed.
Thanks for the honest response. I honestly wish you all the luck in the world. But maybe touch base with the folks behind IMEX about the wisdom of building a show catering almost exclusively to dealers. Because, without retail, there is no business. Just wholesalers pushing inventory back and forth to each other.
They were asking about the ANA show, not Whitman!
Don't know first hand, since I've never been. But Google says there is an exemption for everyone over $2K.
In any event, it's not a great example, given that it's a failed show that Stack's had to rescue. Probably more for hobby goodwill than as a business decision once our host's new masters started focusing more on profitability.
No large convention center but plenty of larger events are held at the hotels, etc..
It was a major, successful show for many years. And all shows in NY state have the sales tax issue. It's not ideal, but it's also not a deal breaker.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That's their standard sales tax rules.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
For coins, anyway. I bet if you buy a car that costs over $2000, they'll expect to collect sales tax.
Yes, for coins, obviously.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Sales and Use Tax:
Sales Tax Increase Delay Amendment Act of 2025: The general sales tax rate on the gross receipts from the sale of or charges for tangible personal property, digital goods and taxable services, will remain 6.0% through Sept. 30, 2026. The general sales tax rate will increase to 7.0% for periods beginning on and after Oct. 1, 2026.
It is known that the 6% tax rate under $1000 in Maryland existed just for the Whitman Show at the Baltimore Convention Center for some time until July 2026. After that, the exemption was expanded to all of Maryland.
Is it possible to get this specific show at the Washington Convention Center exempt in DC the same way that Maryland did? Maybe NCBA can help you get this done before the show.
BTW: Long Beach CA < $2000 is 10.5%
The issue with DC is there is no exemption at all, so there is no incentive to spend over a threshold. Every sale will need to be taxed and this may discourage buyers.
convention center schedule seems kind of open. perhaps they'd have more conventions with a better sales tax policy
Before my time. In my time, it has always been a dying show.
I also can't speak to what the national sales tax landscape was when it was thriving. But nowadays, as I said before, with no one coming in to debate me, there seem to be no national or major regional shows where they don't have a sales tax exemption.
Whitman fought tooth and nail for its special Maryland exemption, and was very proud when they landed it. Now it turns out it was a just a "nice to have" that wouldn't make or break a show.
We'll see. But, with Rosemont, Pittsburgh, Orlando, Baltimore, Shaumburg, etc. not collecting taxes, I'll be shocked if dealers want to deal with the paperwork, and if collectors accept the surcharge, in 2027, when there are so many other options.
I just don't see the necessity for this particular show if Whitman lost its February window for Baltimore. Brand new location, a month after FUN and a month before ANA. With no sales tax exemption.
None at all, when even California, Massachusetts and New York, three of the highest tax states in the country, have threshold exemptions, and many when states have a full exemption. To be honest, DC should not even be on any coin show's radar due to that.
If dealers need it, good for them. Ditto for anyone local who didn't scratch the itch in November, can't wait for June, and is willing to pay an extra 5.75%. I honestly can't see any collector traveling any significant distance to hit DC in February after skipping Orlando in January and Virginia Beach in March.
I didn't see IMEX being successful. I wasn't wrong.
I thought GACC in Tampa would be good, and I was wrong about that. I was also wrong about ANA in OKC sucking when it turned out to be surprisingly good.
So I admittedly don't have a great feel for this. I only know what would work for me. I stopped doing business with Heritage when they started collecting sales tax. I stopped doing business with the Royal Canadian Mint when they started collecting sales tax.
The hobby is expensive enough. I refuse to ever pay premiums when they are avoidable.
I will always avoid any coin show where sales taxes are collected. I would have to rethink if there were no alternatives.
But there are PLENTY of REALLY good alternatives. No offense to Whitman, but it is no FUN, and it is no WFOM. I can't imagine anyone actually needs it if it's going to involve the hassles of collecting and paying sales taxes.
If dealers are truly providing positive feedback now, I hope that continues if DC asks @JohnF for a dealer list and subjects them to sales tax audits after the show. Because I can't imagine any dealer being excited about setting up anywhere other than their home state where they have to worry about dealing with taxing authorities.
California has a $2000+ exemption. Ok.
Lots of collectors never spend anywhere near that amount on a purchase.
NY doesn't even have that. Yet the NY International is a premiere show and there are numerous local and regional shows, none of which have exemptions. And the Baltimore didn't have an exemption for a long time. It's not the show killer that someone is suggesting.
There's also a lot of sales tax fraud that goes on. I actually wish states would crack down on that. If there's going to be a sales tax, make sure it's enforced.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
NY International is an international show. I'll bet no one is actually paying tax there.
I thought NY had a threshold exemption, but it turns out it's just for bullion. Maryland always had a threshold exemption, even before Whitman got the total exemption for the show.
It's a big enough deal that the ANA won't go anywhere where they don't get an exemption. So there's that.
And the best show in the country, FUN, has an exemption. So, yeah, I think it's a pretty big deal.
Lot of reasons DC might not fly. But, if it doesn't, you won't be able to tell me that sales taxes didn't play a part.