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Thoughts on this ANACS Proof Morgan
Proofmorgan
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Any thoughts on the value of this coin? The seller is asking way too much of course (66+ money).
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
1
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I like it. Value?
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Don
It’s impossible to place a meaningful value on most Proof coins from images and this one is no exception.
But if the seller’s asking 66+ money, what’s the point of trying to come in with an estimated value, anyway? It’s not going to be in the ballpark (or universe) of the asking price.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Hard to tell from those images. The coin looks kind of dark. Maybe the toning is nice.
Just can't tell if it has alot of hairlines or why its a 64.
I know for me, when I eventually do buy a proof I would be looking for one a little brighter.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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$3250.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Do you really think its worth just $3250?
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7 JWP BruceS bigjpst
JWP PROMETHIUS88
Retail on that coin is probably around $5,000 or so. Depending on how it looks in-hand will dictate how much higher or lower the coin will/should sell for.
Unfortunately there is no grade guarantee on those old Anacs white holders, so the only guarantee is authenticity. I'd try to use penetrative lighting, tensor/halogen to see if the toning is covering anything.
I understand the limitations of providing an accurate assessment from less-than-ideal images. There do seem to be some very nice coins actively available, but much of what remains appears to be listed at unrealistic asking prices and accompanied by poor-quality photos. Despite that, there doesn't seem to be any shortage of collectors willing to take the risk or perhaps the sellers simply aren't motivated to sell.
I've inquired about several attractive coins that were priced 50% or more above what I believe any recent sales data would support. Even after providing recent comparable sales and explaining my rationale, there has been very little willingness to negotiate. It feels as though many sellers are content to wait indefinitely for someone willing to pay their asking price rather than price the coin in line with the current market. That may simply reflect the nature of today's rare coin market, where patient sellers can hold out for a premium buyer while collectors who rely on recent auction results often find themselves on the sidelines.
In the areas I collect, retail offerings continue to be priced well above what recent sales data would suggest. Yet, with each new auction, I find myself surprised as realized prices continue to exceed my expectations. It's an interesting dynamic—retail asking prices often seem disconnected from the available data, but auction results are gradually catching up and, in some cases, validating those optimistic valuations.
In this case, the seller is asking around $10,000, which is essentially 66 CAC money, although they have indicated they are open to negotiation.
From my perspective, if I factor in the possibility of an upgrade and assume the coin has stronger in-hand eye appeal than the photos suggest, I could envision it grading 65 with CAC approval. Even under that optimistic scenario, however, CAC retail is only around $7,750.
What has surprised me recently is that I've seen several auction results and retail sales where the realized prices have approached, or even exceeded, what I would consider the coin's value if everything went right: an upgrade, CAC approval, and exceptional eye appeal. Historically, I've always tried to leave myself some margin for the grading risk and uncertainty. In today's market, though, it feels like buyers are increasingly willing to pay tomorrow's best-case value at today's auction, leaving very little upside for the next owner.
Example as it relates to the market: We can agree the Stack Collection prices were quite strong. Despite that, I saw some lots pop up on dealer sites at 30% above the realized prices and they did not last long.
Another example priced at 75% over what the data suggests:
I love this coin, but is priced in excess of 68 CAC money without a way for me to inspect in hand. The seller will not even agree to send me the certification information.
I'd be concerned the obverse might be in close to terminal black toning. I'd want more photos at different angles to see how it may really look in hand. Good luck.
“Retail of $7750 if everything goes right”
I believe that the chances of that are extremely slim. And if not everything goes right, the retail value is probably $5000 or less.
To each his own. But when I’m that far off from the asking price, I pass without countering. Chances of the seller dropping the price enough to make it work are very small. And frankly, if a seller is quoting a price that much higher than what he’s willing to sell the coin for, in the majority of cases, I don’t want to do business with him, anyway.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree with your logic, and that's traditionally been my thinking as well. Lately, though, it seems like the risk-taker or buyers willing to pay what would have been considered decade-high prices have really been influencing the market. It's hard to complain because it's been great for the value of my current holdings, but it has made the market incredibly difficult to buy into.
A recent transaction really drove that point home. A dealer contacted me about a thinly traded coin that I had purchased from them about two years ago for what was already above full retail at the time. I paid 20% over the it's auction record from the year prior. They asked what it would take for me to part with it because they had a client looking for one.
I really didn't want to sell, so I quoted a price roughly 40% higher than what I had paid (60% over the auction record from 3 years ago), expecting it to end the conversation. Instead, they immediately bought it. I assume they then added their own margin when placing it with their client.
The two coins I posted are priced well above what I could justify paying, but I wouldn't be surprised if they likely sell in the near future. If you follow the social media sales at all, the prices realized can be even more staggering than some of the more formal venues.
Unless the color is more spectacular than the photo shows, $3250 sounds about right.
The obvious question is, why is it in an ANACS holder?
IF it crossed at PCGS, then closer to $5000
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
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Don’t like the coin a bit too dark for me. It seems to have a green area on reverse. PVC?
@Typekat
Agree, and that is a later ANACs soapbar holder and grade suspect. I liked them and bought many Morgans in the early 2000's, and felt the grade close to PCGS & NGC grading when the holder # was low 1 million and lower. The alpha-numeric holders were always spot on if not under-graded. The coins I bought when the holder # was 2 million and higher were predominantly over graded or had issues that PCGS might have body bagged.
For that much money I’d ask myself why the coin isn’t already in a PCGS or NGC holder.
Casual collector: Morgans & Peace Dollars & 20th Century Type Set. Successful BST transactions with ProofCollection, Morgan13, CoinFinder, CoinHunter4, Bretsan.
I think the proposed value of $3,250 is reasonable.
The mottled, unattractive toning really hurts this coin. It does not look Gem, and I would be surprised if it crossed to PCGS at the current grade. The market would give a discount for this holder at auction. $10,000 is delusional in my opinion.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
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If the seller has it priced at 66+ money tell him you’ll buy it when he gets it into a PCGS 66+ holder.
I don't think Norma Desmond was ready for her close up...
One cannot ask Moon money for coins with mediocre photos.
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Sure one can ask, as evidenced by the fact that it’s done extremely frequently. Selling them is a different story, however.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Based on your comments:
"Lately, though, it seems like the risk-taker or buyers willing to pay what would have been considered decade-high prices have really been influencing the market."
and
"I quoted a price roughly 40% higher than what I had paid (60% over the auction record from 3 years ago), expecting it to end the conversation. Instead, they immediately bought it."
you might think about re-evaluating how you are determining current market values.
For the OP coin, I wonder how much of that toning was induced by the holder itself.
Official PCGS account of:
www.TallahasseeCoinClub.com
From the image, my immediate thought is yuck.
Ask the seller why he thinks it's worth PR66+ money.
I feel your frustration, I often browse for 1936-42 proof sets and constantly run across sellers with a single bad picture of each side of the set, yet they are asking far over retail for them. Same goes for 1950 sets.
Collector, occasional seller
What’s the point in asking? I don’t see any reasonably possible answer that would make a difference and it might end up ruffling feathers.
My general philosophy is, if the answer won’t make any difference, don’t ask the question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'd speculate none.
These older ANACS white holders don't react like the older PCI slabs did.
While it’s true that it’s really impossible to access the value of Proof coins from photos, I would be very leery of this piece. Original toning can go too far. When it goes too far, it kills the Proof mirrors where the coin is dead dull. I have the impression that this coin has gone too far. That might be why it has not been crossed.
Regarding the OP, I would speculate likely some toning came from the holder.
PCI/ANACS may not react the same, but they certainly react!! ANACS soapbox holders have a specific toning style, most prominently a metallic blue/purple haze color that turns into a dull rainbow. The following coins are in ANACS old holders. I would guess near all of the toning is from the holder in these cases.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
@jacrispies
I agree, the older soapbar holders usually have that familiar rim toning. Maybe not as predominant as PCI holders toning across the entire coin, but most of my Morgans alll had that rim toning colors.
That is not really true. The old small white holders from the ANA days through the ANACS days absolutely reacted. I have plenty of examples in my collection to prove it, some of which I crossed over to PCGS.
I don't like the look of the proof Morgan. Not from these pictures, at least.
The purple-blue toning so commonly seen on coins in soapboxes usually means the coin was cleaned or dipped at one point. (not referring to the OP coin here)
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
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Might be OK in hand hard to tell.
Needs a video or axial lighting.
Even then why the 66 money, that does not make sense. Crossover, nobody will bite at that price and those photos.
Obv too,dark for my taste. I think you can do better at that price point.
I’ll buy eye appeal over grade any day, and will happily pay a premium, but for me, this coin doesn’t speak to me.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do
Would pass on those leave to the toner hobbyists.