@mintonlypls said:
Mike Marshall LA Dodgers pitched 208 innings in relief during the 1974 season….posted a record of 15-12…and is the only reliever in baseball history to win the Cy Young Award.
I believe Marshall was the first. Many have won it after he has.
@mintonlypls said:
Mike Marshall LA Dodgers pitched 208 innings in relief during the 1974 season….posted a record of 15-12…and is the only reliever in baseball history to win the Cy Young Award.
Marshall was the first. Eight others have won it since
@mintonlypls said:
Mike Marshall LA Dodgers pitched 208 innings in relief during the 1974 season….posted a record of 15-12…and is the only reliever in baseball history to win the Cy Young Award.
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You mean the first reliever in baseball history to win the Cy Young Award?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
it seems a little silly to me that 80s cards in PSA 10 are "selling" for those type of prices. there are millions and millions of each of those. they are certainly not worth those prices to me.
I think it's funny, I get a kick out of how stupid some of these card sales get
I don't own a single Ryan card nor will I ever buy one.
@craig44 said:
it seems a little silly to me that 80s cards in PSA 10 are "selling" for those type of prices. there are millions and millions of each of those. they are certainly not worth those prices to me.
I think it's funny, I get a kick out of how stupid some of these card sales get
I don't own a single Ryan card nor will I ever buy one.
I am a big ryan fan and have a pretty big collection of his, but am really glad i got all the big ones i wanted of his years ago. I wouldnt be buying too many big ones with the way his cards are selling now. well, there is one big one i still want, the 1991 UD auto, but i will eventually get that one.
its funny, Seaver was the much better pitcher, but ryan WAY outsells him. kind of like mantle and mays.
@craig44 said:
Blyleven is not viewed by many as great as he was in part because he did not have the gaudy win totals as other pitchers. he also did not have the overpowering fastball of Ryan or Seaver (though I have read that his fastball was well above average in his younger years.
He is not viewed as great because he wasn't. His peers did not think he was great. 2 All-Star Team selections in a 20 year career for a pitcher does not scream Hall of Fame. By contrast, Seaver was 12 times and Ryan was 8. Most years, pitchers were selected on merit as not voted by fans - always some exceptions -and he was probably hurt in the early years to be selected with Carew being on his team. He benefited early on from a weaker league - the AL - and the implementation of the DH which allowed for him to stay in games and pad his stats for complete games, ERA and strikeouts. When he was traded to the NL in 78 his complete games dropped substantially. They went back up when he went back to the AL and the DH league. A lot of revisionist history with this guy.
@craig44 said:
it seems a little silly to me that 80s cards in PSA 10 are "selling" for those type of prices. there are millions and millions of each of those. they are certainly not worth those prices to me.
I think it's funny, I get a kick out of how stupid some of these card sales get
I don't own a single Ryan card nor will I ever buy one.
I am a big ryan fan and have a pretty big collection of his, but am really glad i got all the big ones i wanted of his years ago. I wouldnt be buying too many big ones with the way his cards are selling now. well, there is one big one i still want, the 1991 UD auto, but i will eventually get that one.
its funny, Seaver was the much better pitcher, but ryan WAY outsells him. kind of like mantle and mays.
Ryan has always had a cult like following, I admire his accomplishments but I do believe he used PEDS and some could argue he was a bit overrated.
I am all for a free market but I have zero sympathy for anyone who pays stupid money for regular issue cards of that time period and never recoups it if they chose to sell
I started watching baseball in 1974. Clemens, Ryan and Randy always stood out to me. i got to see maddux, glavine, pedro any several other greats in person. But those three were and still are bigger than life. Seaver was obviously great though. And my 4th favorite was Carlton.
The best most memorable pitcher in one year was 1976 Mark Fidrych. Watching him before he got hurt was simply assume.
@craig44 said:
it seems a little silly to me that 80s cards in PSA 10 are "selling" for those type of prices. there are millions and millions of each of those. they are certainly not worth those prices to me.
I think it's funny, I get a kick out of how stupid some of these card sales get
I don't own a single Ryan card nor will I ever buy one.
I am a big ryan fan and have a pretty big collection of his, but am really glad i got all the big ones i wanted of his years ago. I wouldnt be buying too many big ones with the way his cards are selling now. well, there is one big one i still want, the 1991 UD auto, but i will eventually get that one.
its funny, Seaver was the much better pitcher, but ryan WAY outsells him. kind of like mantle and mays.
Ryan has always had a cult like following, I admire his accomplishments but I do believe he used PEDS and some could argue he was a bit overrated.
I am all for a free market but I have zero sympathy for anyone who pays stupid money for regular issue cards of that time period and never recoups it if they chose to sell
Definitely agree. It's obvious Nolan was using steroids. You do not see the change he had at age 40 unless there is some factor like steroids. He was lucky because he retired before people began to suspect steroid use.
Pay homage to the King. Nolan Ryan is one of the main reasons a thriving baseball card market even exists. It comes as no surprise to me that people want to pay excessive money for his cards. It's been happening for many, many years. My own dear mother went to a local card store to acquire a gift for yours truly. This was back in the early 90s. She spent $1200 on a card which would have graded VG at best. It was one of the most special gifts I ever received from her. Of course, sometime later on, I sold it. I've had plenty of others since.
I think the point made on Ryan is this: His iconic status amongst collectors and investors alike has only grown from what was originally an obsession with his rookie card to all of his cards. He still commands more attention within the marketplace than anyone else except Mantle and Jordan. His legendary accomplishments outweigh his total body of work, which is why few, if any people care about his lifetime stats. Apples to oranges, there were other much better modern day pitchers deserving of greater hobby love, but it will never happen.
@craig44 said:
Blyleven is not viewed by many as great as he was in part because he did not have the gaudy win totals as other pitchers. he also did not have the overpowering fastball of Ryan or Seaver (though I have read that his fastball was well above average in his younger years.
He is not viewed as great because he wasn't. His peers did not think he was great. 2 All-Star Team selections in a 20 year career for a pitcher does not scream Hall of Fame. By contrast, Seaver was 12 times and Ryan was 8. Most years, pitchers were selected on merit as not voted by fans - always some exceptions -and he was probably hurt in the early years to be selected with Carew being on his team. He benefited early on from a weaker league - the AL - and the implementation of the DH which allowed for him to stay in games and pad his stats for complete games, ERA and strikeouts. When he was traded to the NL in 78 his complete games dropped substantially. They went back up when he went back to the AL and the DH league. A lot of revisionist history with this guy.
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This is certainly one of the most humorous posts I have seen.
All Star teams? Poor way of measuring greatness.
2 years in the NL? Poor way of determining his success. In 1985 at the age of 34, (yes, in the AL) he led all of baseball with 24 complete games and was 3rd in shutouts, 1st in the AL. Followed that up with 16 complete games the following year. Lots of guys pitching in the AL, the rules are what they are. Doesn't prove he finished those games because of the DH. He completed those games because he was pitching well.
Revisionist history? No, not with people who understand that baseball is a team sport and appreciate a long and extremely productive career. No hitters are impressive, but as far as a win goes, no different than a shutout. Bert had 60 in 685 starts. Ryan had 61 in 773 starts. Strikeouts are also over rated. Bert had MUCH better control than Ryan. Walked HALF as many guys!
Bert pitched 200+ innings in 16 seasons. 2 more than Ryan and the same as Seaver. NO, Bert's not as good as Seaver, but he was better than Ryan, who was much less consistent. ERA+ agrees.
Even if you go by wins Bert was better his 162 game winning percentage was .534 to Ryan's .526.
Many people value flash over consistency. I don't.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Pay homage to the King. Nolan Ryan is one of the main reasons a thriving baseball card market even exists. It comes as no surprise to me that people want to pay excessive money for his cards. It's been happening for many, many years. My own dear mother went to a local card store to acquire a gift for yours truly. This was back in the early 90s. She spent $1200 on a card which would have graded VG at best. It was one of the most special gifts I ever received from her. Of course, sometime later on, I sold it. I've had plenty of others since.
I think the point made on Ryan is this: His iconic status amongst collectors and investors alike has only grown from what was originally an obsession with his rookie card to all of his cards. He still commands more attention within the marketplace than anyone else except Mantle and Jordan. His legendary accomplishments outweigh his total body of work, which is why few, if any people care about his lifetime stats. Apples to oranges, there were other much better modern day pitchers deserving of greater hobby love, but it will never happen.
Pay homage to THE KING.
No way I will agree with this, Nolan Ryan is absolutely not why the "Thriving baseball card market exists"
It exists because people can make money off it, some can make a living off of it, Nolan Ryan cards have their place in the hobby but don't tell me that's the reason the hobby is where it is, that is absurdly ridiculous lol
@1982FBWaxMemories said:
Carlton, Seaver and Palmer All dwarfed Ryan in the 70s. But with cards, stats are only a part if the equation.
I agree a lot revisionism with Blyleven especially from those trying to pump his cards. Minor HOFer in my book but yes he belongs there
Well, I'm buying, not selling Blyleven. I saw the guy pitch for my Twins and never could understand why he never got the recognition he deserved.
Gladly, people finally took a look at how good he actually was and rightfully revised their opinion.
Some people, sadly not many, can actually say "I was wrong about this guy".
I’m with you. I loved Blyleven. Dude may have had one of the best curves of all time too.
I will never understand some folks hatred for players who have long careers. As far as I’m concerned that just means those guys were very good for longer than most guys can even play. That’s a plus for me when I think about who I respect on the field.
THE POST IS ABOUT Nolan's cards and the prices. I have nothing against Bert or any other pitcher. But clearly Nolan's cards are on another stratosphere than all the rest. And there really is no argument against it. Just like Elmago above my mom, who knows zilch about baseball, told me when I was 16, "you should get a Nolan Ryan rookie".
@olb31 said:
THE POST IS ABOUT Nolan's cards and the prices. I have nothing against Bert or any other pitcher. But clearly Nolan's cards are on another stratosphere than all the rest. And there really is no argument against it. Just like Elmago above my mom, who knows zilch about baseball, told me when I was 16, "you should get a Nolan Ryan rookie".
I don't believe anyone is arguing against his cards being on another stratosphere because they absolutely are but opinions on whether or not they deserve to be or not is part of a Nolan Ryan card discussion on his cards and the prices good sir
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Pay homage to the King. Nolan Ryan is one of the main reasons a thriving baseball card market even exists. It comes as no surprise to me that people want to pay excessive money for his cards. It's been happening for many, many years. My own dear mother went to a local card store to acquire a gift for yours truly. This was back in the early 90s. She spent $1200 on a card which would have graded VG at best. It was one of the most special gifts I ever received from her. Of course, sometime later on, I sold it. I've had plenty of others since.
I think the point made on Ryan is this: His iconic status amongst collectors and investors alike has only grown from what was originally an obsession with his rookie card to all of his cards. He still commands more attention within the marketplace than anyone else except Mantle and Jordan. His legendary accomplishments outweigh his total body of work, which is why few, if any people care about his lifetime stats. Apples to oranges, there were other much better modern day pitchers deserving of greater hobby love, but it will never happen.
Pay homage to THE KING.
No way I will agree with this, Nolan Ryan is absolutely not why the "Thriving baseball card market exists"
It exists because people can make money off it, some can make a living off of it, Nolan Ryan cards have their place in the hobby but don't tell me that's the reason the hobby is where it is, that is absurdly ridiculous lol
No disrespect to Ryan collectors and fans btw
I typed "one of the main reasons". Perhaps you haven't had the exposure I've had in my business which is going on 40 years of actively buying and selling cards. I alluded to the fact Ryan is "one of the main reasons" the card market thrives. When Ryan rookie cards were red hot many years ago, that was what people asked about. When big spenders would ask how to place their funds intelligently, Ryan was the answer amongst several blue chip options. That's all. The market has evolved, of course. And yes, absolutely the market exists because people can make money from it. It's always been that way. That's why it's called a market.
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Pay homage to the King. Nolan Ryan is one of the main reasons a thriving baseball card market even exists. It comes as no surprise to me that people want to pay excessive money for his cards. It's been happening for many, many years. My own dear mother went to a local card store to acquire a gift for yours truly. This was back in the early 90s. She spent $1200 on a card which would have graded VG at best. It was one of the most special gifts I ever received from her. Of course, sometime later on, I sold it. I've had plenty of others since.
I think the point made on Ryan is this: His iconic status amongst collectors and investors alike has only grown from what was originally an obsession with his rookie card to all of his cards. He still commands more attention within the marketplace than anyone else except Mantle and Jordan. His legendary accomplishments outweigh his total body of work, which is why few, if any people care about his lifetime stats. Apples to oranges, there were other much better modern day pitchers deserving of greater hobby love, but it will never happen.
Pay homage to THE KING.
No way I will agree with this, Nolan Ryan is absolutely not why the "Thriving baseball card market exists"
It exists because people can make money off it, some can make a living off of it, Nolan Ryan cards have their place in the hobby but don't tell me that's the reason the hobby is where it is, that is absurdly ridiculous lol
No disrespect to Ryan collectors and fans btw
I typed "one of the main reasons". Perhaps you haven't had the exposure I've had in my business which is going on 40 years of actively buying and selling cards. I alluded to the fact Ryan is "one of the main reasons" the card market thrives. When Ryan rookie cards were red hot many years ago, that was what people asked about. When big spenders would ask how to place their funds intelligently, Ryan was the answer amongst several blue chip options. That's all. The market has evolved, of course. And yes, absolutely the market exists because people can make money from it. It's always been that way. That's why it's called a market.
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Pay homage to the King. Nolan Ryan is one of the main reasons a thriving baseball card market even exists. It comes as no surprise to me that people want to pay excessive money for his cards. It's been happening for many, many years. My own dear mother went to a local card store to acquire a gift for yours truly. This was back in the early 90s. She spent $1200 on a card which would have graded VG at best. It was one of the most special gifts I ever received from her. Of course, sometime later on, I sold it. I've had plenty of others since.
I think the point made on Ryan is this: His iconic status amongst collectors and investors alike has only grown from what was originally an obsession with his rookie card to all of his cards. He still commands more attention within the marketplace than anyone else except Mantle and Jordan. His legendary accomplishments outweigh his total body of work, which is why few, if any people care about his lifetime stats. Apples to oranges, there were other much better modern day pitchers deserving of greater hobby love, but it will never happen.
Pay homage to THE KING.
No way I will agree with this, Nolan Ryan is absolutely not why the "Thriving baseball card market exists"
It exists because people can make money off it, some can make a living off of it, Nolan Ryan cards have their place in the hobby but don't tell me that's the reason the hobby is where it is, that is absurdly ridiculous lol
No disrespect to Ryan collectors and fans btw
I typed "one of the main reasons". Perhaps you haven't had the exposure I've had in my business which is going on 40 years of actively buying and selling cards. I alluded to the fact Ryan is "one of the main reasons" the card market thrives. When Ryan rookie cards were red hot many years ago, that was what people asked about. When big spenders would ask how to place their funds intelligently, Ryan was the answer amongst several blue chip options. That's all. The market has evolved, of course. And yes, absolutely the market exists because people can make money from it. It's always been that way. That's why it's called a market.
@craig44 said:
it seems a little silly to me that 80s cards in PSA 10 are "selling" for those type of prices. there are millions and millions of each of those. they are certainly not worth those prices to me.
I think it's funny, I get a kick out of how stupid some of these card sales get
I don't own a single Ryan card nor will I ever buy one.
I am a big ryan fan and have a pretty big collection of his, but am really glad i got all the big ones i wanted of his years ago. I wouldnt be buying too many big ones with the way his cards are selling now. well, there is one big one i still want, the 1991 UD auto, but i will eventually get that one.
its funny, Seaver was the much better pitcher, but ryan WAY outsells him. kind of like mantle and mays.
Ryan has always had a cult like following, I admire his accomplishments but I do believe he used PEDS and some could argue he was a bit overrated.
I am all for a free market but I have zero sympathy for anyone who pays stupid money for regular issue cards of that time period and never recoups it if they chose to sell
I agree on both counts. Ryan certainly is overrated by many and I have long thought He used PED.
there are players who's legacies outshine their greatness. ryan was a great pitcher, but not the best of all time or even the best of his generation. However, he is the "paul bunyan" of pitchers. his fame is greater than the totality of his career. a couple of examples:
Mickey mantle. not the GOAT or the GOAT of his generation, but his fame and legacy have put his cardboard at the very top of the hobby.
Joe Namath. way more famous than great. threw more INT than TD. yet, his rookie in high grade is one of the greatest vintage football cards.
there is no pitcher more collectable than ryan. not because he was the GOAT, but because of the fastball, the k's, the no hitters and the extreme longevity.
Both Mantle and Ryan are hyped because of Beckett. Mantle was the most expensive card in Beckett Monthly. Ryan was the newest card over 1k. Both during the time when Beckett was the industry standard and the magazine that all of the guys, who are now in their 50s, were reading when they were kids, during the baseball card boom of the late 80s and early 90s. If it weren't for Beckett none of those guys would care about either Mantle or Ryan. I'm 52. Mantle retired 5 years before I was born. I've never even seen good footage of Mantle. Ryan didn't seem so special in the early 90s. Even though the card market was spewing out Ryan cards.
@craig44 said:
it seems a little silly to me that 80s cards in PSA 10 are "selling" for those type of prices. there are millions and millions of each of those. they are certainly not worth those prices to me.
I think it's funny, I get a kick out of how stupid some of these card sales get
I don't own a single Ryan card nor will I ever buy one.
I am a big ryan fan and have a pretty big collection of his, but am really glad i got all the big ones i wanted of his years ago. I wouldnt be buying too many big ones with the way his cards are selling now. well, there is one big one i still want, the 1991 UD auto, but i will eventually get that one.
its funny, Seaver was the much better pitcher, but ryan WAY outsells him. kind of like mantle and mays.
Ryan has always had a cult like following, I admire his accomplishments but I do believe he used PEDS and some could argue he was a bit overrated.
I am all for a free market but I have zero sympathy for anyone who pays stupid money for regular issue cards of that time period and never recoups it if they chose to sell
I agree on both counts. Ryan certainly is overrated by many and I have long thought He used PED.
But not Clemens. Lol. I think Ryan did - along with Fisk and Rickey Henderson.
20 time all-star
7X WS champ
holds just about every WS hitting record ever
3x mvp
triple crown
batting champ
4x hr leader
most HR's ever by a switch hitter
played his whole career in the bronx
20 time all-star
7X WS champ
holds just about every WS hitting record ever
3x mvp
triple crown
batting champ
4x hr leader
most HR's ever by a switch hitter
played his whole career in the bronx
KO king by 850
7 no-hitters
324 wins
lowest hits per 9 innings in history 6.5
6 300 KO seasons the most ever
ws champ
2 time era leader
8x all-star
most of the above will never be broken -- ever and its not close.
Ryan struck out 19 batters in a game 4 times, I believe. The Dodgers give free Jumbo Jacks to the entire city of Los Angeles, and surrounding areas, if they strike out 7 in a game. The Dodgers use 3 to 5 pitchers in a game. I don't know how often they get to 7. Just sayin.
My uncle took me to Anaheim to see Ryan pitch for the Angels. My first time we sat behind home plate. It was mesmerizing. I was 11 years old and playing Little League baseball at that time. There were kids pitching in our games trying to mimic his delivery. I couldn’t hit any of them. 😂
I am halfway through the new Nolan Ryan Biography that just released last week. there are some pretty cool stories about his life/career in it going all the way back into his childhood and when Red Murph "discovered" him pitching in high school. he said that even then, Ryan had the best fastball he had ever seen. Ryan was a high school junior at the time!!
the man was built different, that is for sure. it is in large part the lore/stories about Nolan that make his cards so collectable.
KO king by 850
7 no-hitters
324 wins
lowest hits per 9 innings in history 6.5
6 300 KO seasons the most ever
ws champ
2 time era leader
8x all-star
most of the above will never be broken -- ever and its not close.
Ryan struck out 19 batters in a game 4 times, I believe. The Dodgers give free Jumbo Jacks to the entire city of Los Angeles, and surrounding areas, if they strike out 7 in a game. The Dodgers use 3 to 5 pitchers in a game. I don't know how often they get to 7. Just sayin.
and there is the game back in 74 when Ryan threw 235 pitches against the Red Sox!!! can you imagine that today! that is 2 1/3 games worth of pitches for a modern starter.
because it was before pitch counts were actually tracked I didn't believe this one... two hundred and thirty-five pitches? that's insane. his arm would fall off. Legend.
but the math actually says he pitched an efficient game at the 235 estimate with the expected pitch total based on the number of strikeouts, walks, and hits would be in the 240s.
Ryan might not have been the best pitcher or whatever, but the dude is a legend.
You don't have to defend The Fryin' Dutchman's greatness...
He's top 10 all time in Ks and Shutouts. That's the golden ticket. In one thread olb's yapping about the importance of the Post Season to support his guys and then he wants to try to leg tackle Bly? The guy was built for October.
@bgr said:
because it was before pitch counts were actually tracked I didn't believe this one... two hundred and thirty-five pitches? that's insane. his arm would fall off. Legend.
If pitch counts weren't tracked, how do they know he threw 235 pitches? If a pitcher makes it to 235 pitches, he must be getting shelled. Why wouldn't they have taken him out? This isn't an unbelievable feat though. 19 Ks 4 times is not believable.
I think Yamamoto pitched a complete game in something like 110 pitches last year.
The record for fewest pitches in a complete game is 58. Set by Boston Braves pitcher Charlie "Red" Barrett on August 10, 1944. According to AI.
@bgr said:
because it was before pitch counts were actually tracked I didn't believe this one... two hundred and thirty-five pitches? that's insane. his arm would fall off. Legend.
If pitch counts weren't tracked, how do they know he threw 235 pitches? If a pitcher makes it to 235 pitches, he must be getting shelled. Why wouldn't they have taken him out? This isn't an unbelievable feat though. 19 Ks 4 times is not believable.
I think Yamamoto pitched a complete game in something like 110 pitches last year.
The record for fewest pitches in a complete game is 58. Set by Boston Braves pitcher Charlie "Red" Barrett on August 10, 1944. According to AI.
Back then the pitching coaches would click them, but accuracy wasn't perfect. In this case it's unlikely to be an exaggeration given the expected pitches for baseball outcomes which were tracked in the available box score.
@galaxy27 said:
love this shot. 1980. Batman on the left, Robin on the right. only year they shared a rotation. how sweet were those unis?
Astros of 1980. Remarkable team. They had the West clinched if they could beat L.A. in any one of 3 season ending games at Dodger Stadium. I attended all 3. The excitement and buildup of anticipation was pretty crazy, so by Sunday with L.A. needing a win to force a one-game playoff, it happened. Ron Cey hit the go-ahead blast in the 8th, and they sent everyone into a frenzy. Gameday seats were immediately made available after the win and thousands of people lined up outside the ticket office for hours to get them. While we were standing in line Dusty Baker came up for a visit and high-fived the entire line while carrying his kid on his shoulders. He was incredibly happy. As a fan of the sport I'll always remember that time, it was fun. The next day the Astros forced their way into the playoffs by winning the game. The last couple of innings pitched for the Dodgers were completed by a kid named Fernando Valenzuela.
Correction: Fernando pitched the 6th & 7th innings. Steve Howe finished the game.
@bgr said:
because it was before pitch counts were actually tracked I didn't believe this one... two hundred and thirty-five pitches? that's insane. his arm would fall off. Legend.
If pitch counts weren't tracked, how do they know he threw 235 pitches? If a pitcher makes it to 235 pitches, he must be getting shelled. Why wouldn't they have taken him out? This isn't an unbelievable feat though. 19 Ks 4 times is not believable.
I think Yamamoto pitched a complete game in something like 110 pitches last year.
The record for fewest pitches in a complete game is 58. Set by Boston Braves pitcher Charlie "Red" Barrett on August 10, 1944. According to AI.
ryan was built different. he probably threw more pitches than any other pitcher. During his age-42 season with the Texas Rangers in 1989, he averaged 127 pitches per start. In one stretch that year, he threw 146, 150, and 162 pitches over three consecutive starts.
he threw 140 pitches during his 6th no hitter at age 43
this is in his 40s while still throwing in the mid to high 90s
@bgr said:
You don't have to defend The Fryin' Dutchman's greatness...
He's top 10 all time in Ks and Shutouts. That's the golden ticket. In one thread olb's yapping about the importance of the Post Season to support his guys and then he wants to try to leg tackle Bly? The guy was built for October.
@bgr said:
You don't have to defend The Fryin' Dutchman's greatness...
He's top 10 all time in Ks and Shutouts. That's the golden ticket. In one thread olb's yapping about the importance of the Post Season to support his guys and then he wants to try to leg tackle Bly? The guy was built for October.
In baseball there is no set strike zone. The umpires call the balls and strikes. I can see 19 Ks in a game 4 times if all the hitters forget how to hit a baseball and the strike zone widens whenever Ryan is pitching.
This is why there is a push for computers to call balls and strikes. These days you can see a box on the screen. But, that box is rarely from letters to knees. Henderson's stance, for instance, was designed to shrink his strike zone and get him walks.
Baseball pretty much always has a guy or two who are performing way outside the standard deviation.
@bgr said:
because it was before pitch counts were actually tracked I didn't believe this one... two hundred and thirty-five pitches? that's insane. his arm would fall off. Legend.
If pitch counts weren't tracked, how do they know he threw 235 pitches? If a pitcher makes it to 235 pitches, he must be getting shelled. Why wouldn't they have taken him out? This isn't an unbelievable feat though. 19 Ks 4 times is not believable.
I think Yamamoto pitched a complete game in something like 110 pitches last year.
The record for fewest pitches in a complete game is 58. Set by Boston Braves pitcher Charlie "Red" Barrett on August 10, 1944. According to AI.
ryan was built different. he probably threw more pitches than any other pitcher. During his age-42 season with the Texas Rangers in 1989, he averaged 127 pitches per start. In one stretch that year, he threw 146, 150, and 162 pitches over three consecutive starts.
he threw 140 pitches during his 6th no hitter at age 43
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If he threw more strikes, he wouldn't have had to throw so many pitches. He did have great stamina!
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this is in his 40s while still throwing in the mid to high 90s
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One of his best years was 1991 at 44 yrs old. The 2 preceding years were very good as well. FINALLY consistently throwing strikes.
Robbed of the Cy Young in 1987 at 40 years old.
I count 12 years where he was between 86 and 107 in ERA+. Half his career he was a slightly below to slightly above average pitcher.
2 great years out of 9 in Houston during what should have been his prime. He was not great with the Mets.
Oddly enough his final 5 years in Texas is where he had his best ERA+. He pitched very well for the Angels too!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
Blyleven is not viewed by many as great as he was in part because he did not have the gaudy win totals as other pitchers. he also did not have the overpowering fastball of Ryan or Seaver (though I have read that his fastball was well above average in his younger years.
He is not viewed as great because he wasn't. His peers did not think he was great. 2 All-Star Team selections in a 20 year career for a pitcher does not scream Hall of Fame. By contrast, Seaver was 12 times and Ryan was 8. Most years, pitchers were selected on merit as not voted by fans - always some exceptions -and he was probably hurt in the early years to be selected with Carew being on his team. He benefited early on from a weaker league - the AL - and the implementation of the DH which allowed for him to stay in games and pad his stats for complete games, ERA and strikeouts. When he was traded to the NL in 78 his complete games dropped substantially. They went back up when he went back to the AL and the DH league. A lot of revisionist history with this guy.
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Here's some more revisionist history comparing Bert and Nolan;
Sorted by WAR, highest to lowest, Bert's top 17 years matched up next to Nolan's, Bert wins EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
Bert with 12 seasons at 5.0 or above, Nolan with 7 seasons.
Sorted by ERA+ highest to lowest, Bert wins 16 out of their best 17 years!
Bert with 11 years at 123 or higher Nolan with 7.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I love the fact that an infinite amount of yammering over who was better won't change a damn thing when it comes to who pays what for where. Ryan cards rule. So what if he walked a bunch of guys. He put the fear of G-D in their hearts while he was doing it. Who cares about WAR, comparative stats, winning seasons, losing seasons, blah, blah, blah.
The people who pay for the honor of owning a piece of cardboard with a photo of an athlete on it always speaks the truth.
@craig44 said:
Blyleven is not viewed by many as great as he was in part because he did not have the gaudy win totals as other pitchers. he also did not have the overpowering fastball of Ryan or Seaver (though I have read that his fastball was well above average in his younger years.
I dont know why Blyleven is in the Hall and Tommy John isn't? John was runner up in the cy young voting twice.
Comments
I believe Marshall was the first. Many have won it after he has.
Marshall was the first. Eight others have won it since
A's World Championships-1910, 1911, 1913, 1929, 1930, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1989
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You mean the first reliever in baseball history to win the Cy Young Award?
I think it's funny, I get a kick out of how stupid some of these card sales get
I don't own a single Ryan card nor will I ever buy one.
Speaking of Marshall, who was the reliever in the 70's that had an18-1 record. Didn't win the cy young though.
That was Elroy Face in 1959.
Late 60's and early to mid 70's non-sports
I am a big ryan fan and have a pretty big collection of his, but am really glad i got all the big ones i wanted of his years ago. I wouldnt be buying too many big ones with the way his cards are selling now. well, there is one big one i still want, the 1991 UD auto, but i will eventually get that one.
its funny, Seaver was the much better pitcher, but ryan WAY outsells him. kind of like mantle and mays.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He is not viewed as great because he wasn't. His peers did not think he was great. 2 All-Star Team selections in a 20 year career for a pitcher does not scream Hall of Fame. By contrast, Seaver was 12 times and Ryan was 8. Most years, pitchers were selected on merit as not voted by fans - always some exceptions -and he was probably hurt in the early years to be selected with Carew being on his team. He benefited early on from a weaker league - the AL - and the implementation of the DH which allowed for him to stay in games and pad his stats for complete games, ERA and strikeouts. When he was traded to the NL in 78 his complete games dropped substantially. They went back up when he went back to the AL and the DH league. A lot of revisionist history with this guy.
Ryan has always had a cult like following, I admire his accomplishments but I do believe he used PEDS and some could argue he was a bit overrated.
I am all for a free market but I have zero sympathy for anyone who pays stupid money for regular issue cards of that time period and never recoups it if they chose to sell
I started watching baseball in 1974. Clemens, Ryan and Randy always stood out to me. i got to see maddux, glavine, pedro any several other greats in person. But those three were and still are bigger than life. Seaver was obviously great though. And my 4th favorite was Carlton.
The best most memorable pitcher in one year was 1976 Mark Fidrych. Watching him before he got hurt was simply assume.
Carlton, Seaver and Palmer All dwarfed Ryan in the 70s. But with cards, stats are only a part if the equation.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me (2025)
Definitely agree. It's obvious Nolan was using steroids. You do not see the change he had at age 40 unless there is some factor like steroids. He was lucky because he retired before people began to suspect steroid use.
Pay homage to the King. Nolan Ryan is one of the main reasons a thriving baseball card market even exists. It comes as no surprise to me that people want to pay excessive money for his cards. It's been happening for many, many years. My own dear mother went to a local card store to acquire a gift for yours truly. This was back in the early 90s. She spent $1200 on a card which would have graded VG at best. It was one of the most special gifts I ever received from her. Of course, sometime later on, I sold it.
I've had plenty of others since.
I think the point made on Ryan is this: His iconic status amongst collectors and investors alike has only grown from what was originally an obsession with his rookie card to all of his cards. He still commands more attention within the marketplace than anyone else except Mantle and Jordan. His legendary accomplishments outweigh his total body of work, which is why few, if any people care about his lifetime stats. Apples to oranges, there were other much better modern day pitchers deserving of greater hobby love, but it will never happen.
Pay homage to THE KING.
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This is certainly one of the most humorous posts I have seen.
All Star teams? Poor way of measuring greatness.
2 years in the NL? Poor way of determining his success. In 1985 at the age of 34, (yes, in the AL) he led all of baseball with 24 complete games and was 3rd in shutouts, 1st in the AL. Followed that up with 16 complete games the following year. Lots of guys pitching in the AL, the rules are what they are. Doesn't prove he finished those games because of the DH. He completed those games because he was pitching well.
Revisionist history? No, not with people who understand that baseball is a team sport and appreciate a long and extremely productive career. No hitters are impressive, but as far as a win goes, no different than a shutout. Bert had 60 in 685 starts. Ryan had 61 in 773 starts. Strikeouts are also over rated. Bert had MUCH better control than Ryan. Walked HALF as many guys!
Bert pitched 200+ innings in 16 seasons. 2 more than Ryan and the same as Seaver. NO, Bert's not as good as Seaver, but he was better than Ryan, who was much less consistent. ERA+ agrees.
Even if you go by wins Bert was better his 162 game winning percentage was .534 to Ryan's .526.
Many people value flash over consistency. I don't.
No way I will agree with this, Nolan Ryan is absolutely not why the "Thriving baseball card market exists"
It exists because people can make money off it, some can make a living off of it, Nolan Ryan cards have their place in the hobby but don't tell me that's the reason the hobby is where it is, that is absurdly ridiculous lol
No disrespect to Ryan collectors and fans btw
Well, I'm buying, not selling Blyleven. I saw the guy pitch for my Twins and never could understand why he never got the recognition he deserved.
Gladly, people finally took a look at how good he actually was and rightfully revised their opinion.
Some people, sadly not many, can actually say "I was wrong about this guy".
I’m with you. I loved Blyleven. Dude may have had one of the best curves of all time too.
I will never understand some folks hatred for players who have long careers. As far as I’m concerned that just means those guys were very good for longer than most guys can even play. That’s a plus for me when I think about who I respect on the field.
THE POST IS ABOUT Nolan's cards and the prices. I have nothing against Bert or any other pitcher. But clearly Nolan's cards are on another stratosphere than all the rest. And there really is no argument against it. Just like Elmago above my mom, who knows zilch about baseball, told me when I was 16, "you should get a Nolan Ryan rookie".
I don't believe anyone is arguing against his cards being on another stratosphere because they absolutely are but opinions on whether or not they deserve to be or not is part of a Nolan Ryan card discussion on his cards and the prices good sir
I typed "one of the main reasons". Perhaps you haven't had the exposure I've had in my business which is going on 40 years of actively buying and selling cards. I alluded to the fact Ryan is "one of the main reasons" the card market thrives. When Ryan rookie cards were red hot many years ago, that was what people asked about. When big spenders would ask how to place their funds intelligently, Ryan was the answer amongst several blue chip options. That's all. The market has evolved, of course. And yes, absolutely the market exists because people can make money from it. It's always been that way. That's why it's called a market.
You are correct, my apologies for mis quoting you
No worries.
I agree on both counts. Ryan certainly is overrated by many and I have long thought He used PED.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
there are players who's legacies outshine their greatness. ryan was a great pitcher, but not the best of all time or even the best of his generation. However, he is the "paul bunyan" of pitchers. his fame is greater than the totality of his career. a couple of examples:
Mickey mantle. not the GOAT or the GOAT of his generation, but his fame and legacy have put his cardboard at the very top of the hobby.
Joe Namath. way more famous than great. threw more INT than TD. yet, his rookie in high grade is one of the greatest vintage football cards.
there is no pitcher more collectable than ryan. not because he was the GOAT, but because of the fastball, the k's, the no hitters and the extreme longevity.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Both Mantle and Ryan are hyped because of Beckett. Mantle was the most expensive card in Beckett Monthly. Ryan was the newest card over 1k. Both during the time when Beckett was the industry standard and the magazine that all of the guys, who are now in their 50s, were reading when they were kids, during the baseball card boom of the late 80s and early 90s. If it weren't for Beckett none of those guys would care about either Mantle or Ryan. I'm 52. Mantle retired 5 years before I was born. I've never even seen good footage of Mantle. Ryan didn't seem so special in the early 90s. Even though the card market was spewing out Ryan cards.
But not Clemens. Lol. I think Ryan did - along with Fisk and Rickey Henderson.
mickey mantle accolades:
20 time all-star
7X WS champ
holds just about every WS hitting record ever
3x mvp
triple crown
batting champ
4x hr leader
most HR's ever by a switch hitter
played his whole career in the bronx
he did it when it mattered the most..
nolan ryan accolades
KO king by 850
7 no-hitters
324 wins
lowest hits per 9 innings in history 6.5
6 300 KO seasons the most ever
ws champ
2 time era leader
8x all-star
most of the above will never be broken -- ever and its not close.
I know he looks good on paper.
Ryan struck out 19 batters in a game 4 times, I believe. The Dodgers give free Jumbo Jacks to the entire city of Los Angeles, and surrounding areas, if they strike out 7 in a game. The Dodgers use 3 to 5 pitchers in a game. I don't know how often they get to 7. Just sayin.
My uncle took me to Anaheim to see Ryan pitch for the Angels. My first time we sat behind home plate. It was mesmerizing. I was 11 years old and playing Little League baseball at that time. There were kids pitching in our games trying to mimic his delivery. I couldn’t hit any of them. 😂
I am halfway through the new Nolan Ryan Biography that just released last week. there are some pretty cool stories about his life/career in it going all the way back into his childhood and when Red Murph "discovered" him pitching in high school. he said that even then, Ryan had the best fastball he had ever seen. Ryan was a high school junior at the time!!
the man was built different, that is for sure. it is in large part the lore/stories about Nolan that make his cards so collectable.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
and there is the game back in 74 when Ryan threw 235 pitches against the Red Sox!!! can you imagine that today! that is 2 1/3 games worth of pitches for a modern starter.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
because it was before pitch counts were actually tracked I didn't believe this one... two hundred and thirty-five pitches? that's insane. his arm would fall off. Legend.
but the math actually says he pitched an efficient game at the 235 estimate with the expected pitch total based on the number of strikeouts, walks, and hits would be in the 240s.
Ryan might not have been the best pitcher or whatever, but the dude is a legend.
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BB king by 962
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Is a no-hitter any better than a complete game shutout?
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292 losses. 3rd all time.
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Walks per 9 innings 4.7. 8th highest all time. 323 pitchers with lower WHIP lifetime.
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Led the league in walks 8 times 19 times in top 10
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1-0 record in WS play
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Nice, but not any kind of record.
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Nice, but not any kind of record.
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I see 2-3 records that will probably never be broken. out of 8. That isn't most.
You don't have to defend The Fryin' Dutchman's greatness...
He's top 10 all time in Ks and Shutouts. That's the golden ticket. In one thread olb's yapping about the importance of the Post Season to support his guys and then he wants to try to leg tackle Bly? The guy was built for October.
If pitch counts weren't tracked, how do they know he threw 235 pitches? If a pitcher makes it to 235 pitches, he must be getting shelled. Why wouldn't they have taken him out? This isn't an unbelievable feat though. 19 Ks 4 times is not believable.
I think Yamamoto pitched a complete game in something like 110 pitches last year.
The record for fewest pitches in a complete game is 58. Set by Boston Braves pitcher Charlie "Red" Barrett on August 10, 1944. According to AI.
Back then the pitching coaches would click them, but accuracy wasn't perfect. In this case it's unlikely to be an exaggeration given the expected pitches for baseball outcomes which were tracked in the available box score.
love this shot. 1980. Batman on the left, Robin on the right. only year they shared a rotation. how sweet were those unis?
NOBODY was cooler than JR
save some ladies for the rest of us.
Astros of 1980. Remarkable team. They had the West clinched if they could beat L.A. in any one of 3 season ending games at Dodger Stadium. I attended all 3. The excitement and buildup of anticipation was pretty crazy, so by Sunday with L.A. needing a win to force a one-game playoff, it happened. Ron Cey hit the go-ahead blast in the 8th, and they sent everyone into a frenzy. Gameday seats were immediately made available after the win and thousands of people lined up outside the ticket office for hours to get them. While we were standing in line Dusty Baker came up for a visit and high-fived the entire line while carrying his kid on his shoulders. He was incredibly happy. As a fan of the sport I'll always remember that time, it was fun. The next day the Astros forced their way into the playoffs by winning the game. The last couple of innings pitched for the Dodgers were completed by a kid named Fernando Valenzuela.
Correction: Fernando pitched the 6th & 7th innings. Steve Howe finished the game.
ryan was built different. he probably threw more pitches than any other pitcher. During his age-42 season with the Texas Rangers in 1989, he averaged 127 pitches per start. In one stretch that year, he threw 146, 150, and 162 pitches over three consecutive starts.
he threw 140 pitches during his 6th no hitter at age 43
this is in his 40s while still throwing in the mid to high 90s
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
INTERESTING CHOICE OF WORDS..
OMG! IS IT? IT’S TRUE.
In baseball there is no set strike zone. The umpires call the balls and strikes. I can see 19 Ks in a game 4 times if all the hitters forget how to hit a baseball and the strike zone widens whenever Ryan is pitching.
This is why there is a push for computers to call balls and strikes. These days you can see a box on the screen. But, that box is rarely from letters to knees. Henderson's stance, for instance, was designed to shrink his strike zone and get him walks.
Baseball pretty much always has a guy or two who are performing way outside the standard deviation.
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If he threw more strikes, he wouldn't have had to throw so many pitches. He did have great stamina!
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One of his best years was 1991 at 44 yrs old. The 2 preceding years were very good as well. FINALLY consistently throwing strikes.
Robbed of the Cy Young in 1987 at 40 years old.
I count 12 years where he was between 86 and 107 in ERA+. Half his career he was a slightly below to slightly above average pitcher.
2 great years out of 9 in Houston during what should have been his prime. He was not great with the Mets.
Oddly enough his final 5 years in Texas is where he had his best ERA+. He pitched very well for the Angels too!
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Here's some more revisionist history comparing Bert and Nolan;
Sorted by WAR, highest to lowest, Bert's top 17 years matched up next to Nolan's, Bert wins EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
Bert with 12 seasons at 5.0 or above, Nolan with 7 seasons.
Sorted by ERA+ highest to lowest, Bert wins 16 out of their best 17 years!
Bert with 11 years at 123 or higher Nolan with 7.
I love the fact that an infinite amount of yammering over who was better won't change a damn thing when it comes to who pays what for where. Ryan cards rule. So what if he walked a bunch of guys. He put the fear of G-D in their hearts while he was doing it. Who cares about WAR, comparative stats, winning seasons, losing seasons, blah, blah, blah.
The people who pay for the honor of owning a piece of cardboard with a photo of an athlete on it always speaks the truth.
Pay homage to THE KING.
I dont know why Blyleven is in the Hall and Tommy John isn't? John was runner up in the cy young voting twice.
2025 SEC bowl record 4-10
SEC bowl record vs BIG TEN last two years 2-8