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The coin of the immaculate conception
D205071
Posts: 13 ✭
Looking for ideas on how this tarnish perfect circle in the middle of the coin ? Thanks for your help
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Looks like some sort of a stain. The same thing is on the reverse.
It could have been from the way it was stored. Hard to say exactly
how it happened unless you were there at the time.
While we cannot, normally, assign causes of specific toning or damage patterns on coins, I think in this specific case we can make an exception. The size, and the position, of this stain gives me a clue about exactly what caused it.
A coin cabinet ID tag.
Back in the days before the invention of plastic tombs to hermetically seal away our coins, coin collectors needed some other way to try to preserve their coins from the elements. Coin cabinets were the standard method. Coin cabinet trays are flat, with little cut-out depressions in which the raw coins can be placed. But one problem with this storage system is knowing where your coins came from in the tray system - if you, say, took a dozen coins out of your cabinet to look at them, photograph them, or show them off to your coin collecting friends, how would you know (a) what they were, and (b) where to put them back in the cabinet again when you're done?
The answer: coin cabinet ID tags. These were small, circular pieces of paper placed in the coin tray depressions, underneath the coins. You wrote on the tag any pertinent information about the coin, such as one might today write on the frame of a cardboard 2x2 or the paper insert of a coin flip. If /when you rearranged the coins in a cabinet, the tags moved too. And when coins were bought and sold, the tags went with the coin.
Such tags were normally made of paper or cardboard. And this paper and cardboard, and/or perhaps the ink used to write on the tags, might contain sulfur. If so, then this piece of sulfurous paper would be sitting right underneath the coin, in constant contact with it. This could then cause a round patch of toning, the size and shape of the tag.
I would take this toning pattern as a "good sign" that the coin has been sitting in collections for a long time (probably over 100 years) and that it hasn't been cleaned since it lived in a coin cabinet.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
Totally agree with Sapyx. I have seen this on lots of silver coins of Italy also. It's nice to see it graded by PCGS. I have seen many that are underweight.
Thank you guys so much! I’m a tig welder by trade and an amateur coin collector. Do you have any pictures of a coin cabinet I’d tag ? Can’t find anything online. Another question comes up is why would it be on both sides? Thanks again !
Also , can you still get a ms 62 grade with sulfur on the coin ?
The toning is perfectly "natural", in that all toning on any silver coin is caused by environmental sulfur. It was accumulated on the coin by accident and not by deliberate premeditated action, or accelerated by deliberately exposing the coin to a sulfurous environment, so by no definition would it qualify as "artificial toning". Indeed, I would postulate that if that long-ago collector had known the tag contained sulfur, they would not have used it but instead found a different piece of cardboard or paper to make a new tag out of. As such, this toning patch does not significantly affect the grade.
That's easy enough: the coin was indeed taken out of its cabinet slot at least once (probably multiple times), and when it was put back it was put back "upside down" compared to how it had been before, so that the other side of the coin was then resting on the tag and exposed to the sulfur spot.
A quick google search for "old coin cabinet" gave a bunch of examples, including these links:
https://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/index/15907-cabinets-type-coin-collectors/
https://www.downies.com/products/antique-cabinet-20-trays-305mm-x-270mm-x-295mm
This article shows coins of a modern-day collector of ancient coins who still used the "round tag" system he'd grown up with:
https://conservatoricoins.com/ex-bcd-collection-bibliography/
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
so that coin had a tag on both sides?
Probably not, but the coin was flipped over while it was living in the cabinet so both sides of the coin were in contact with the tag as various time periods. That's my theory, anyhow.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
I like the theory but can’t get my head around putting a Id tag on a coin that is clearly marked. I also can’t get my head around a person that spends a lot of money on a coin cabinet takes time to make tags and picks up the coin one day and see’s this circle of stain decided not to clean it and wants to put the stain on the other side. I think I’m taking this to a Catholic Church. In 1854 this Pope came out with the dogma of the immaculate conception and this Pope is not canonized. I don’t want to keep anyone from heaven.
The tag provided lots of details about the coin, and also served as a marker to show where the coin belonged if multiple coins were removed at the same time.
As for the toning, it would have occurred over time and not all of a sudden. The owner might in fact have never seen it, or not on both sides, at least.
The coin and roundel (tag) were probably transferred to a paper 2x2 at some point.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This circle is 15.76 mm round. A very small ID tag .
Got a pair of Digital Caliper and found out the circle is 14.9 mm round and it’s 11.55 mm from the edge of the circle to the edge of the coin all the way around. This is in the dead center of the coin . So unless the cabinet was only made for 38 mm but the melting on the back tells me different.
A newbie with 9 posts, leaves both the walking coin wikipedia @sapyx and one of THE most experienced coin collectors and dealer @MrEureka, speechless, despite their best efforts to explain it.
I had to live and see this.
If you don't like the stain , you can resubmit it for conservation with grade guarantee. It might even upgrade. However, after your calculations that the minor stain is dead center and exactly equal in its radius on both sides, as well as its minuscule size that certainly doesn't seem like a regular ID tag, makes it a nice conversation piece.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
Thanks for the idea but I think the “stain” tells a unique story.
Probably a more likely scenario is two coins stacked together or stored together in an envelope, with two roundels.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Sapyx is probably still right, even though the tag would be small.
There’s no reason why a pre manufactured sticker dot wasn’t used. There plenty of sizes, even today. Just put a date on the dot, no need for lots of info if it’s just a location placeholder. Especially if it’s in your “Italy” drawer.
Also, you being a custodian of a coin isn’t keeping anyone out of heaven. There’s no religion that holds that tenant.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Thanks for the ideas but can’t get my head around putting a sticker or another coin to hide a 1/3 of the coin. Also placing it perfectly in the dead center would be hard to achieve. But you’re exactly right on going to heaven .
It happened for a reason, what is your hypothesis? If it was only confined to the reverse, I would say it was mounted to a small pillar for display purposes, the putty used to adhere used having having an acidic quality.
Andy has a great theory, there were coins stacked with a dot of padding between the pieces. That’s as good a theory as any.
Much less likely is a metal differential, that has some support in other areas of numismatics, but very unlikely.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I think the key is to confirm my findings about this circle being in the dead center. Do you guys know of a place I can go to get this confirmed ? Do they make software that can help ? Thanks
Buy a Whitman folder and then you can start putting coins in the center of the empty circles.
Can you show me a picture of a Whitman folder 14.9 mm in diameter and also be able to fit the 38 mm coin ? Thanks
No more questions; just buy the Whitman folder and start filling it.