Ethics of AI-"improved" numismatic images [removing prongs]
jonathanb
Posts: 3,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
I hate prongs. I admit it freely, I'm one of those people. I understand that prongs can be incredibly useful for pieces where the edge matters. That's fine. For everything else, I hate prongs.
I've been playing around with some of the AI tools in the latest Photoshop. It turns out that AI has progressed far enough that it can remove prongs in a way that's basically undetectable by normal humans. That's fantastic. But just because we can, does that mean that we should?
Let's take a concrete example. I used Photoshop to edit the photograph below to remove the prongs that were present in the original image. If you think you can tell, post a response that says how many prongs were originally present, and where they lined up on the medal. You can mark up the picture, or you can just use words, for example saying that there was a prong above "OF J" if you think there was a prong that wide at 12:00.
I'll post the with-prongs picture tomorrow.
My question is this: What are the ethics of making these sorts of edits?
My feeling is that edits of that sort are fine, and don't need to be disclosed. But I'm having a hard time explaining why I feel that way.
Obviously, it's bad to make edits that make a difference, numismatically. If I edited a picture to remove damage on the rims, that would be bad. And doubly-bad if I did that on something I was trying to sell.
But suppose I posted this image to a thread where people were talking about presidential residences. Removing the prongs simply removes some distraction without changing the subject matter. Maybe?
Would your answer change if the image was used in a standard reference, for example if someone published a book on presidential residences and used this de-pronged picture rather than the original with prongs?
What are your thoughts?
Comments
I see nothing wrong with editing prongs out of an image. However, off the top of my head, for purposes of full transparency, I’d include information regarding what holder (as in pronged) the coin was in.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have no issue with it at all and think you did a great job.
You have to realize that every decision you make affects the image portrayed. The camera settings, the types and numbers and directions of lighting and the type of lens used for image acquisition all profoundly affect the way an image is portrayed before you even get to see the image as a fixed file on your computer. Any adjustments or tweaks after that to make the image more accurate are additional edits and changes. So, I have no problem with wanting to share an image and removing the prongs.
However, if you were to offer it for sale I would definitely have the prongs in the image and then add the second image without prongs with an explicit mention of what you did.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
FWIW, I intentionally left that out of this thread, because I didn't want to push guesses in one direction or another. I've tried removing prongs from images of NGC and PCGS slabs. Photoshop does a fine job for both.
Everything is important when you're selling a coin (or medal, etc). Full-slab images would be ideal in a case like that.
I'm considering all of the other non-selling cases, where you simply want a picture to illustrate a discussion.
I think it’s fine with the qualifiers you’ve stated.
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
prongs hide things. don't sell with prong edited images
It's good to disclose edits of any kind, but any edit you make means it doesn't match what a buyer receives, even if it's under the prongs and the buyer can't tell. It also calls into question what else might have been edited, even if you made no other changes at all.
If you're doing this to enjoy your own collection, fine.
Prongs are a mixed blessing since they are ugly but they at least let you see most of the coin's edge. If you are selling the coin, editing out the prongs are ethical with full disclosure and with showing pics of the coin within the slab.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree with everyone suggesting that when selling, both pictures with and without prongs are necessary. I want the pronged picture because it shows me what I will see when I buy the coin.
I am very much in agreement that the ethical line for this type of enhancement (prong removal) needs to be disclosed and clearly stated when selling. That seems to be the ethical line in the sand.
But otherwise, in the use of an image for a publication or a display presentation, I find it perfectly acceptable ... and like you mentioned, much more pleasing to the eye. I hate the remnants of slab gaskets, prongs and otherwise that creep into images.
However, it's really only okay if that is the only change (other than color and exposure corrections) and it doesn't mask something that would be there otherwise. Hopefully that makes sense.
You did such a good job (or AI did) that I'm not sure I know where the prongs were.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Agreed, disclosure and pre-images present no ethical issues.
Good dealers/sellers will be fine with this, but I have seen many images on EBay that were (1) intentionally poor, (2) obviously altered, or (3) of a different coin, so it is all a matter of dealing with people who are trustworthy.
As promised, here is the original with-prongs image, along with the edited version again so you don't have to scroll back to the top to compare.
There seems to be universal agreement (myself included) that it's a Bad Thing to edit pictures of an item for sale.
There doesn't seem to be much concern about editing pictures of items not being sold.
(I probably should have set this up as a survey in the first place,)
I figured out how to do this perfectly about a year and a half ago and posted about it asking if it is ethical too. Many people thought it’s bad because it created a part of the coin that isn’t real. I didn’t do it because of that, but in reality I think it’s ok if you are displaying a coin in a “show off” photo, especially if making a collage or special coin display. I still haven’t done so yet though, but here’s an example of where I think it’s probably appropriate. I think the picture below would be better with AI prong removal and there would be no unethical deception if I did so.
Mr_Spud
Great work removing prongs.
Have no problem with AI being used to facillitate viewing. But when used to improve a coin or hide features, then I do have a problem. I have utilized ps for 30+ years. Never once used it to enhance a coin's looks, not even color. I have always sent my colorful or attractive toned coins to specialists such as Joe(crazyhounddog) for photographic excellence.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
If you can guarantee there are no dings, scratches, or other issues under the prongs then possibly ok. But as others have said it could be misrepresenting the coin as you may not fully know what’s behind the prongs and the edited images are showing no issues.
So would you know what, if any, damage exists below the prongs, if the prongs were not AI removed?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I doubt it. But when the prongs are removed from the image, the person doing so is making a representation that might be incorrect. When a picture is shown with the prongs, the person showing it isn’t making the same representation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Assuming the presenter presented coin without naming holder.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
That’s kind of the point I suppose, there’s no way to know for sure what exactly is under the prongs. I had an old draped bust dollar in an NGC holder that crossed to pcgs and the prongs were in different spots. The NGC holder hid a small rim ding that pcgs didn’t. So if I presented an image of a ding-less coin without any prongs then would there be any consequences down the line if one shows up?
I have been manually editing out prongs for years and see nothing wrong at all with a digital assistant being used to do so.
Official PCGS account of:
www.TallahasseeCoinClub.com