Looking for direction on collecting early American coins
comma
Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭
Looking to educate myself on early American coins and wanted to pick the brains of the members here.
To start, I am only interested in coins minted in the American Colonies.
A few questions to start:
• What are some suggestions on reading material?
• How active is the market and the community for early American?
• Any general pointers on how to authenticate early pieces?
Any other knowledge or tips would be greatly appreciated!
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Comments
If you don't have a sense of the market, know how to identify authentic pieces or where you might find coins to buy, seems to me you're not positioned to be overly successful as either a collector, investor or dealer.
JMO, YMMV.
The old and best saying is "buy the book before you buy the coin"
ChatGPT states this is outdated advice.
Regards,
Red R.
Just trying to learn here. We all have to start somewhere. I obviously understand I wouldn't be successful without knowing those things which is why I was hoping to get some advice here from people who are more knowledgeable than me.
Any suggestions on worthwhile books to buy?
Read Read Read
You could look up books surrounding this topic.
Proud follower of Christ! I love the USA! Land of the Bright and Beautiful! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
The Red Book and PCGS CoinFacts have lots of info on the types and dates:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/colonials/13
For market history, PCGS Auction Prices Realized is helpful:
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices
There is also the PCGS Price Guide:
https://www.pcgs.com/prices
Simplest is the Red Book.
https://whitman.com/redbook/
I really struggle with this post.
Any niche you aren't expert in is a horrible market to "invest" or "deal" in. So, set that aside for 5 years or more, because this is especially true for the early American market.
Heritage, Stacks and Legend are your friend. GC less so as they don't have extensive cataloging. There are specialist dealers. But I would stay away from other sources and vDO NOT LOOK FOR BARGAINS ELSEWHERE, they will be mostly fake or problems.
You are 10 years away from being able to authenticate, so stick to slabbed coins
Forget profit. Have fun.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I didn't intend my reply to be snarky. I do think that you've chosen a challenging area of interest. For collecting, you'll need to read everything you can find on the topic (I don't collect early American so I can't help here), look at as many coins as you possibly can in hand and talk to anybody with expertise who's willing to take the time. Investing? My personal opinion is that there are better options for growing your money. And as far as dealing goes, when you're ready for that you just do it.
Thanks. Being knowledgeable enough to buy/sell/upgrade a collection is the fun part for me. But I'm not sure why you have to be an expert in something to invest in it. I would assume that most people that collect and invest in almost anything wouldn't be considered an expert.
I probably shouldn't have used the word "deal". I just like to be able to be knowledgable enough to upgrade coins and know what I'm doing. Not saying I want to become an early American coin dealer a month from now or something. Really just trying to get pointed in the right direction for how to learn more.
Also realizing this forum was probably a bad place to ask for advice on getting into a niche market like this. I'm assuming those are already experts in it don't want the competition.
There are a lot. Was hoping someone with experience could point me in the right direction so I don't waste my time with poor quality books
I would never "invest" in coins. That said, you absolutely need to be an expert to be able to navigate early American varieties, understand the market, etc. If ignorant people could succeed at investing, wouldn't we all be rich? And early American is an especially challenging niche.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
People on this forum are very generous with their knowledge.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
In almost 7 decades of serious collecting Ive never bought anything for investment. Anything.
Ive collected for enjoyment and, so long as my taste was not way off base, the investment took care of itself..
While books are useful, I found the best education is to attend as many major shows as possible, hold and examine both raw and slabbed pieces in the specialty you chose and find those very few and sociable dealers who largely specialize in your specialty niche. The good ones can become mentors.
Better than books, Stacks and Heritage catalogues are very educational in early American coins.
Are you well capitalized? Are you prepared to enter a market where risk vs. return is a poor proposition for most conventional business owners and investors?
You’re speaking very casually about a very serious proposition and looking to compete against dealers who have spent decades refining their business models.
A lot depends on how you define "investing".
If you mean a significant percentage of your assets or another person's assets, then @Project Numismatics post above applies.
If you mean a relatively small amount that is inevitable when purchasing a durable good/asset, then not as much is at risk.
Any level of investment involves forecasting the future price for when you will sell. This is hard to do with coins, since you have to forecast demand at a given level of quality (grade). It tends to vary a lot depending on how many collecters there are at this level in the future.
If the amount is small, you many not need to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how much the future price might go down. Just treat it like consumption, but with some variable resale value.
I have collected early U.S. coins (1792 to 1807) since the 1970s. As a collector in my 20s with a limited budget, I used to buy about two coins a year. If your goal is to make money in the short to medium term, pick something else. I’ve held coins for 50 years and could get 4 to 6 times what I paid, but if you look at compound interest, it’s a run of the mill return. Competition is fierce for those coins in auctions. Expect to pay huge premiums. Don’t buy raw coins unless you are an expert. If a coin is raw from this era, chances are it’s either a counterfeit or has problems.
My sweet spot grade is Choice AU. Mint State pieces have usually been beyond my budget. I have a few early Mint State coins, and paid way beyond the catalog prices to get them. They are real Mint State pieces, not “sliders.” My lowest grades are Fine-15 for one major rarity (1796 half dollar, you can look it up) to VF for the other “low grades” pieces I have.
I recently came in third after bidding 6 figures, which was beyond the estimate, for something I wanted. This is not an area for the faint at heart. You can PM me if you want to know something about a couple specific pieces.
For starters, buy a copy of Colonial and Early American Coins by Dave Bowers as well as Early Coins of America by Sylvester Crosby. You may want to join the Colonial Coin Collectors Club(C4). They have a quarterly newsletter. Do not look at these coins or any coins as an investment. It’s a labor of love. If you catch the bug, then you need to decide if you want to collect by type, variety, etc. Start small and take your time. In addition, you need to learn how to grade these coins with some sort of consistency. Anyone can accurately grade a Hibernia halfpenny. State coppers are another story. Not to scare you but you’re going to have to do a lot of homework.
These coins are very difficult to find when compared to federal coinage. A “common” colonial such as a 1787 Connecticut Laughing Head is a rarity when compared to a 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent.
Best of luck!
I personally think if you embark on this you’ll lose all your money.
Thanks. I may have also misspoke with "investment". I meant that broadly. Isn't all of collecting in some way an investment in something?
It's very unserious, I promise. I may have written my post incorrectly. If I were to rewrite it I would ask:
"Interested in early American coins and looking for advice on how to begin learning more" or something like that.
For me personally, all my hobbies involve investing, buying, selling etc. It's what makes collecting fun for me. But I understand that some people are taking the fact that I said "invest" and "deal" very seriously.
Really, just want to learn more about early American coins as I have a decent knowledge about early American antiques and art.
Thank you for the reply. Not really looking to make money in the short term. Really just looking for some basic knowledge so I can start to learn more and understand what I'm looking at. But I definitely understand it's not an easy niche to learn.
I'm willing and eager to do the homework. It's an area of American history that I'm fascinated in. I'm knowledgeable on other early American (18th century) objects so I'm hoping that helps with coins, but I understand it won't be easy.
Thank you for the recommendations!
Care to expand on why?
I wrote the following several years ago. It comes from my experiences collecting colonial era coins since around 2006. I also borrowed liberally from John Agre at Coin Rarities Online. I've learned a lot from him and other dealers over the years and I recommend you get to know him / them.
Anyway, the following is a long read but I hope it helps!
The Challenge of Colonial Coin Collecting
Part I. What is a colonial coin?
I’m sometimes asked “Where can I find a listing of the colonial coins that would be required for a Type set?”
First of all, I wouldn't get too caught up in the debate about what coins are actually colonial, pre-colonial, pre-federal, etc. I use the term "colonial era coins" and collect what I like!
To get a list for a type set, you could start out by using the Redbook. I use the PCGS Early American Coins and Tokens Basic Design Set, which consists of the following coins:
Massachusetts Silver Oak Tree
Massachusetts Silver Pine Tree
Maryland Coinage
New Jersey St. Patrick Coinage
American Plantation Token
Rosa Americana Coinage
Woods Hibernia Coinage
Virginia Coinage
Elephant Token Halfpenny
Higley Copper
Voce Populi Coinage
Pitt Token
Rhode Island Ship Medal
Chalmers Coinage
French Colonies Billon Coinage
French Colonies Sou 1767
Continental Dollar
Nova Constellatio Copper
Immunis Columbia
Massachusetts Copper
Connecticut Copper Bust Left
New York Excelsior
Machin’s Mills Copper
Nova Eborac Copper
New Jersey Copper Head Right
Vermont Copper Plow
Vermont Copper Bust Right
North American Token
Bar Copper
Auctori Plebis Token
Mott Token
Kentucky Copper
Franklin Press Token
Myddelton Token
Castorland Medal
Talbot Allum & Lee Cent
Washington Triumpho Token
Washington Military Bust
Washington Draped Bust
Washington 1791-95 'Washington President' Obverse
Washington Undated Liberty & Security
Washington Success Medal
Fugio Cent
There are many ways to collect colonial era coins. They include:
A limited type set of "mainstream colonials", such as Pine Tree Shillings, Fugio Coppers, Continental Dollars, Nova Constellatio Coppers, etc.
A complete type set covering every series in the Redbook.
An expanded type set of all colonial related issues, including Redbook coins, other circulating world coins and other association pieces.
An in depth focus on one series (such as Talbot, Allum and Lee coins, including all of the mules and all variants, or Pitt related items, including coins, medals and ephemera).
A collection of state coppers by die variety, such as Connecticuts by Miller variety.
Same as the preceding, but also including die states
Same as preceding, but also including unusual and interesting errors, PDVs (painted die varieties), unusually light or heavy coins, etc.
A theme collection, such coins with boats on them.
One of the great things about collecting colonials is that there are countless ways to design your collection.
Part II. The Necessary Research
The saying "buy the book before you buy the coin" is old but good. Before you buy any colonial era coins, you should spend a little money on a couple of books and auction catalogs.
Books:
The History of United States Coinage, As Illustrated by the Garrett Collection, by Q. David Bowers. This book highlights one of the finest collections ever formed and it has extensive information about colonials.
The Early Coins of America, by Sylvester Crosby is a must-have book for colonial collectors.
Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins, also by Bowers. This recently published book is an excellent basic reference.
Complete Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins, by Walter Breen. Even with its flaws, it's a great reference.
Auction catalogs:
Stack's series of John Ford Sales
John J. Ford’s collection contained over 11,000 coins, tokens, medals and other numismatic items covering all aspects of American numismatics - except regularly issued federal US coinage. This massive collection was sold by Stack’s in a series of 21 auctions for over $56 million.
Stack's Roper Collection sale
John L. Roper, 2nd, was "a prominent Virginia industrialist and public figure". He assembled one of the finest collections of colonial era coins ever to come to public auction. The coins were sold by Stack's in December 1983. According to the auction catalog, the collection contained many fantastic rarities including:
Bowers and Ruddy's series of Garrett Collection sales
As noted above, the Garretts formed one of the finest and most extensive coin collections ever. One of their primary collecting areas was colonial era and other early American coins.
Bower's and Merena's Eliasberg Collection Sale, Part I
In addition to being the only complete collection of federal US coinage ever formed, the Louis Eliasberg collection also contained a limited offering of superb colonial pieces.
Bowers and Merena's series of Norweb Collection sales
Also an extensive collection that contained many major colonial rarities.
Part III. Tips for Collecting Colonials…and Other Thoughts
Once you've read a bit and feel comfortable buying an inexpensive colonial or two, here are some additional thoughts to keep in mind:
Initially, I recommend that you only buy coins certified and graded by a reputable third party grading service such as PCGS.
You could look for coins in PCGS genuine holders, but I suspect most that you find will be rare and expensive. So, even though I don't like NGC as much as PCGS for colonials, NGC NCS slabs could be a decent alternative if you are on a budget but super picky.
In any case, stay away from harshly cleaned coins...but realize that a lot of early copper has been brushed, oiled, lacquered, waxed or otherwise "conserved" and you may be ok with buying those coins. Personally, I shy away from them and seek out coins that I believe are original...but I recognize that conserving copper has been a widely accepted practice in the hobby for years and there are a lot of nice coins to be found this way.
In my opinion, color and surface quality are the most important aspects of early copper and other colonial era coins. I prefer a smooth, hard planchet with a nice, even warm color that reminds me of milk chocolate. For silver, I look for the same attributes in the planchet and I look for dirt between the devices, natural but subtle toning that comes with age...and in all cases, strong eye appeal.
Realize that many colonial varieties come with less than ideal planchets...weak strike, off center, die cracks, dings, discoloration, etc. In some cases, you may have to just accept this if you want an affordable coin. Some colonial coins just don't exist in mint state. Some are so rare and popular that they are prohibitively expensive in high grades. You should study the series and decide what the "optimal collector grade" will be for you...but remember that high grade colonials are very difficult to find!
Colonials are challenging for a lot of reasons. Even after you have a lot of experience with them, you can still make a bad purchase or pay more than you should. Even dealers who are experts in colonials make mistakes...I know because they've shared those stories with me as teaching points.
Going back to what I've said before, I really think your first big investment should be to obtain as many of the Stack's auction catalogs for the Ford collection as you can, as well as the Stack's auction catalog for the Roper collection and Bowers' catalogs of the Garrett collection. These are great references and you will learn a lot by studying them.
But even Ford, Roper and Garrett - who all had a lot of money and could pick and choose as they liked - had a few coins in their collection that seem like mistake purchases and are "dogs" compared to the rest of their coins.
It takes some work to become a knowledgeable colonial coin collector. It takes focus, opportunity, and above all, patience to form a quality collection of colonial era coins.
But colonials are a lot of fun because they are so challenging!
I also recommend reading this book:
In Yankee Doodle's Pocket the Myth, Magic and Politics of Money in Early America
Author: Will Nipper
Extremely helpful, thank you!
There is an old saying: if you want to become a millionaire in the coin business, start with 2 million.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Get a Redbook. Read it. Don't think about another step until you do that much.
If you're sure that you're only interested in Colonials, then you can skip the rest of the Redbook after the Colonials sections. The other advice in this thread is good. But read the Redbook before thinking about anything else.
I should have mentioned, I'm only really interested in coins minted in the Colonies/US. Is there a list somewhere that would help me narrow down which colonial and early (pre US Mint) coins were minted in America?
Are you looking for something besides the Redbook, which has already been mentioned 3 times in this thread already?
The 24 Stack's John J, Ford collection auction catalogs can be viewed (or saved as PDFs) at the Newman Numismatic Portal, starting with January 13, 2004:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctioncompanydetail/3?Year=2004&displayAmt=50
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/532185
@comma Its an interesting mix of advice that you have been given here….
My comment above all else is to attend as many coin shows as you can, and leave your wallet/purse at home…you will absorb an incredible amount of numismatic knowledge and likely find a branch of the coin world that intrigues you…
Two bits of advice.
First, grading on colonials tends to be substantially more subjective and erratic than on regular issue US coins. Keep that in mind at all times, even when looking at slabs.
Second, colonials tend to be relatively illiquid, meaning that selling coins you no longer want can be especially painful. So I’d suggest that you think harder than usual before you buy anything.
That said, I think colonials are a great thing to collect if you’re up to the challenge!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The books listed by MidLifeCrisis will cover this. The redbook, the Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins are a good start. Massachusetts silver, the state coinage, Fugios and what are known as Machin's mills coinage will be the bulk of what was actually minted in the colonies or early US. There are some other rarities like Higley coppers, Chalmer's coinage and a few others as well. One thing to remember, there really isn't much if any documentation on some of these coins, where they were made can be a matter of conjecture and really isn't known for sure in some cases. Join C4, subscribe to the Journal of Early American Coins through the ANS, join EAC. If you want to delve into a particular series, most of them have books dedicated to that particular coinage, these can be quite costly though. This is an extremely complex area of numismatics and is a lifetime learning experience.
Once it gets in your blood 😉
PM sent to @comma
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Edit to add I agree with the comment above from @MrEureka
Interesting thread with some very thoughtful responses. Regarding scarcity of colonial coins, I collect Vermont coppers, and I currently have a very nice group of very original and problem free PCGS straight graded examples for sale at what I consider to be reasonable prices, and no bites for weeks.
Point being, just because a coin is very scarce (and coins like this are very scarce compared to most early federal type), there often isn't much of a market for them, hence they’re not very liquid.
If I were looking to collect with profit in mind as a goal, I’d be wary of choosing types or series where the collector base is relatively thin.
Other passions include golf, Moto Guzzi motorcycles, and Euro motorcycles in general.
Chris
This is a link to a Grading Guide for Early American Copper.
https://www.eacs.org/wp-content/uploads/grading-guide-book-eac-web-version.pdf
This is a link to Resources for Early American Copper:
https://www.eacs.org/books-and-resources/
Consider joining EACS.
I think part of the challenge with your original question is that you combined three very different things: collecting, investing, and dealing. While those worlds overlap, they are not really the same activity.
Speaking only for myself, I’ve been collecting seriously for a little over 20 years, and in one way or another I’ve been involved with coins for about 55 years since I first started as a kid. For me, it has always been a hobby first and foremost. I treat it as part of my entertainment budget... no different than going out to dinner or catching a movie.
The difference, of course, is that when the dinner is over and the movie ends, the money is gone and all you’re left with is the memory (sometimes not a great one... Ishtar comes to mind!). With coins, I get to enjoy them for years, study them, and continue learning about the history behind them.
Do I hope the coins hold their value or appreciate over time? Sure. Most collectors probably do. But that’s not really the primary reason I’m in the hobby. I’m here because I enjoy it. If, somewhere down the road, I happen to do well when I sell some pieces… great. I suppose I’ll find out in another 20 years just how good of an “investment” it all turned out to be.
In the meantime, I’m perfectly happy treating it as what it has always been for me: a very enjoyable hobby....
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Thanks so much for all the responses. A lot to digest but a lot of great insight and resources for me to start with. I understand some of the challenges but this is an area of US Coins that currently interests me more than any other so I'm up for the challenge, at least to start!
Yes, ideally was looking for something beyond the Redbook since I already have one
Do you have those listed here or elsewhere? Still getting an idea of the market. Thanks
That makes sense, but for me, collecting/investing/dealing all go together and personally the investing/dealing part is the main thing that keeps me interested. I just don't find it fun to buy things and put them in a box. Trading up, finding value in certain pieces and selling them to get new things etc. is what is fun for me (in any collecting I do). But I know everyone is different. I will say I'm here because I enjoy it too, I guess just in a different way than others.
I think where we may be talking past each other is in how we’re defining “collecting.” When you say you don’t find it fun to “buy things and put them in a box,” I suspect that’s not really what most collectors here are doing.
For many of us, especially those working in early U.S. coinage or Colonials, collecting involves a lot more than simply acquiring an object and putting it away. A big part of the enjoyment comes from studying the coins themselves: understanding the minting technology of the time, learning to read surfaces (environmental damage vs. planchet flaws vs. flow lines, etc.), attributing varieties, and placing a coin within its historical and numismatic context. That knowledge is part of what informs the broader market and, in turn, influences what dealers buy and sell and what investors consider desirable.
So in that sense, collecting, investing, and dealing do intersect, but they’re still distinct activities. Collectors tend to approach coins through study and historical interest; dealers through inventory turnover and market liquidity; and investors through value appreciation. Most people probably have some mix of all three, but usually one of those motivations dominates.
I suppose where I’m still a bit unclear is how you’re defining those terms...collecting, investing, and dealing... especially on a forum like this that includes people from all three camps. For many of us, the collecting side is a lot more active and intellectually engaging than simply putting coins in a box.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
I think you can be in, and enjoy, all of the camps (as I am) and suspect many members here are as well. I would define the studying you mentioned as part of the "investment" side. You're investing your time and money into furthering the value of a coin (could be financially or historically etc)
"Collecting" by definition to me is just accumulating a group of things which is why I consider investing/dealing part of my "hobby" as a whole. But I also get that everyone has different definitions.
Honestly, it's a moot point. We all have different reasons why this hobby is interesting to us.
Fair enough, and you’re right that people approach the hobby from different angles. There’s certainly overlap between collecting, investing, and dealing, and many people participate in more than one of those lanes at different times.
The only point I was trying to make is that, particularly with areas like Colonials, early federal coinage, and early copper, the learning curve can be very long and sometimes humbling. It takes quite a bit of time to develop an eye for surfaces, originality, planchet issues, environmental damage, and varieties... and those things can have a major impact on value. I’ve been at this seriously for over twenty years and I still feel like I’m learning, especially when it comes to early copper and that's my "niche".
That’s also why many collectors tend to approach the “investment” side cautiously. I think the joke that @jmlanzaf was referring to is: “How do you make a small fortune in coins? Start with a large one.” There’s some truth in that, particularly if someone moves too quickly into the higher end of the market without a lot of experience behind them.
Personally, I try to keep things in a range where I’m comfortable (mostly in the hundreds rather than the thousands of dollars). That way the hobby stays enjoyable and educational, and I’m not putting myself in a position where I’m worrying about the financial side of it too much.
In any case, best of luck with whatever direction you take. The learning process is a big part of what keeps many of us interested in the hobby over the long run.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Comma, they’re currently on a dealers website, I’ll PM you, I don’t want to be accused of using this thread to promote my “for sale” coins….
Thanks
Other passions include golf, Moto Guzzi motorcycles, and Euro motorcycles in general.
Chris
Unless you really know the market for these ... stay away. It is a specialty market and specialty markets are dangerous markets for new collectors.
I'm not a new collector, just new to early coins. I'm guessing anyone who is an expert in this market had to start out knowing very little. But I do understand it's a specialty market and risky. That's why I'm trying to learn as much as I can